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View Full Version : Which 24 cm Gyuto and 27 cm slicer knife should i buy



mrandersdk
01-12-2013, 06:14 PM
What type of knife(s) do you think you want?

I want a 24 cm Gyuto that is very sharp and a 27 cm slicer that also is very sharp.

Why is it being purchased? What, if anything, are you replacing?

I first start by listing what I already have, and then explaining what i need:):

I have taking two pictures of my knives:
Image 1:http://postimage.org/image/oob1mlmwj/
Image 2:http://postimage.org/image/vzx3ph4wb/

Image 1, from the top:
1) 30 cm Carbon Yanagi knife (Not stainless): This used for finely slicing fish and alike.
2) 27 cm Tojiro Heavy duty Chefs knife: This is used for cutting bony fish and chicken
3) 21 cm Henckels. Mostly used for meats. My first quality knife and really like it, it never looses it sharpness.

Image 2, from the left:
1) Cheap boning knife, really sharp though (and can be replaced when warn)
2) Cheap fish fileting knife, same as above
3) Zwilling pairing knife, used for cleaning potatoes mostly
4) Zwilling pairing knife, used for cleaning small vegies
5) Hammered Damascus pairing knife, really sharp also used for vegies
6) Hammered Damascus nakiri knife, really sharp also used for vegies
7) Hammered Damascus santuko knife, really sharp also used for vegies and smaller cuts of meats

What I want the 24 cm Gyuto knife for is to have a really sharp chefs knife I can use to both vegies and boneless meats. It must be really sharp and I would also like a lighter and thinner blade than the 21 cm henckels. Then i can use the henckels for more coarse duties and the 24 cm when a really sharp knife is needed. I like it to be 24 cm because I think 21 cm is too short for many chopping and slicing duties.

The 27 cm slicer is mostly for slicing meats, but maybe it can also be used for chopping longer vegies.

What do you like and dislike about these qualities of your knives already?
Aesthetics - I really like the damascus look and is willing to pay more for it as long as the quallity is also there
Edge Quality/Retention - I try to have knifes that are sharpened to retain the edge and also others who are sharpened to be very sharp, but quicker loose there sharpness.
Ease of Use - A good knife must be easy to use of course :)
Comfort - I'm a home cook so I don't use my knives for hours and hours each days, but comfort is nice though

What grip do you use?
Most of my knifes are western style grips, but don't think a wa grip is out of the picture.

What kind of cutting motion do you use?
I mostly use the rocking motion, but if my new knife work better with another type of cutting i'm willing to learb.

Where do you store them?
As you can see on the pictures they are stored on wooden magnetic holders.

Have you ever oiled a handle?
No

What kind of cutting board(s) do you use?
A homemade wood board and a synthetic high quality HDPE board

For edge maintenance, do you use a strop, honing rod, pull through/other, or nothing?
I use a honing rod for the heavy duty knifes and not for the others. All knifes are sharpened on water stones of grit 1000 and 6000 (i'm willing to by more stones if needed). I also have a 200 grit stone if the knifes need a completely new edge.

Have they ever been sharpened?
I've often sharpen my knifes

What is your budget?
Thinking like at max 400 $ each

What do you cook and how often?
Home cook, but like advanced dishes

Special requests(Country of origin/type of wood/etc)?
No



Here is the knifes I'm currently looking at:

Gyutos:
Gingami No.3 Damascus Gyuto 240mm (http://japanesechefsknife.com/SPECIALS.html#HiromotoGingamiNo.3Damascus)
http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=85662
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=16%2E011%2E240&dept_id=13167
Hattori HD-8 (http://japanesechefsknife.com/HDSeries.html#HD Sujihiki)

Slicers:
Hattori HD-12 (http://japanesechefsknife.com/HDSeries.html#HD Sujihiki)
http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=89906&photo=4&size=b

I'm interesting in what you people thinks of the listed knives, especially the sharpness and quality of the blade (do i need HRC above 64 to get really really sharp edges or is the standard 60-61 ok?), and of course also recommendations for other knives (I really like the damascus look, also I must say that stainless and semi-stainless is a must.).

This is my first post, hope I've have given enough information for you people to help, else ask and I will answer more questions. Thank you al so very much in advance, hope you can help me.

ps. I've read that the Slicing (Gyuto) Knife - Damask is a poor knife and it is too thick, is this true?

Zwiefel
01-12-2013, 06:30 PM
Welcome to the forum!

Crothcipt
01-12-2013, 06:36 PM
Welcome

ThEoRy
01-12-2013, 06:50 PM
"What grip?"refers to the way you hold the knife, not the style of handle. Meaning pinch grip, hammer, pointer, etc. Your answer is still useful though so no worries.

With that budget you can get some serious steel. A knife doesn't need to be 64 hrc to get extremely sharp so you'll be fine with anything over 60.

That being said, with your budget being what it is, stainless being a must and your love for Damascus, I would suggest the Tanaka 240mm Ironwood Gyuto. The steel is just awesome. Gets ridiculously sharp and just holds it forever.

Benuser
01-12-2013, 07:03 PM
Welcome!
A few remarks.
A soft German should be treated in the hard way: no polishing, please. Sharpen on a J400 and stropping on a 800-1200 will give the best results, Further refinement is counterproductive.
Higher hardness should allow more acute angles with the same steel only. If you're just looking for hardness: a lot of advanced, highly charged steels don't allow very acute angles because of the relatively large carbides.
Have you thought about carbon steel?
For a gyuto, I would consider a Hiromoto AS as an introduction to a carbon edge. The slicer, a sujihiki, could be a Fujiwara FKH, carbon tool steel, not that refined but very efficient. Both with JCK.

Zwiefel
01-12-2013, 07:07 PM
Nice looking knife Rick, I wasn't familiar with it before.

ThEoRy
01-13-2013, 01:19 AM
Nice looking knife Rick, I wasn't familiar with it before.

Hmmm then you haven't seen my YouTube page :wink:

Seriously though it's a great knife with just awesome steel and superb looks. It's not often I get to recommend it but in this case it surely fits.

Zwiefel
01-13-2013, 01:21 AM
Dammit! Now I'll have to double check, as i thought I'd seen all your vids.

ThEoRy
01-13-2013, 01:24 AM
Check out "speed salsa" "kkf challenge "" carrot brunoise " there's a bunch of em really. Hopefully more soon too.

mrandersdk
01-13-2013, 03:53 AM
WOW just love the look of the Tanaka 240mm Ironwood Gyuto, even though it's a bit pricy, could only find it to 500$

About the carbon knifes: I will be using the gyuto also for acid things so i guess carbon steel is not that great. Are most into stainless i must say. Could not find the 240 AS gyuto though.

Thanks for the advice about sharpening of the knife, had kind of noticed that using the 6000 grit stones on some of the knifes actually dolled them a bit.


Any comments on the knives I listed? Or any more great recomendations

Must say again i really really like the Tanaka 240mm Ironwood Gyuto:biggrin:

wenus2
01-13-2013, 05:43 AM
Are most into stainless i must say. Could not find the 240 AS gyuto though.

Any comments on the knives I listed? Or any more great recomendations

Must say again i really really like the Tanaka 240mm Ironwood Gyuto:biggrin:
The Hiromoto Aogami Super (AS) Series: http://japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html
AS is a carbon steel known for its edge retention, you should be aware that the Asai slicer you linked is AS carbon steel. They do have stainless Damascus ones though, here is one: http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=87922
I happen have a petty from that line, one of my first purchases. I strongly dislike the bulky cladding and the use of Pakka wood because it makes it feel cheap. Given all that, it does have one important quality that makes it a great cutter: it has very good geometry. I still feel like I paid too much for it though, and it was considerably cheaper back then (as were all knives).

Unfortunately, in my experience, good Damascus tends to be very expensive and cheap Damascus tends to fall somewhere between less-than-ideal and crappy. So just be prepared that a well made large knife in high quality stainless damascus will be somewhat pricey compared to a similar mono steel knife.

The R2 Tanaka really seems like a perfect fit. A Yoshikane SLD damascus is another possibility here: http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Zensho-Yoshikane-SLD-Kurouchi-Damascus-Gyuto-240-m-p/467.htm
Since you seem to have been prepared to spend $800, why not get that knife and spend less on the slicer? The Hattori HD slicer, for example, and the Tanaka gyuto come in right around budget.
Personally If i were purchasing a stainless slicer I would strongly consider a mono steel knife with good geometry and a high performance stainless, like a Gesshin Ginga or a Ryusen Blazen.

There's many combinations of options and I'm sure others will weigh in with some opinions.
Afterall, You're in good hands here if you need help spending money!

mrandersdk
01-13-2013, 12:32 PM
Ok i see, makes sense to save a bit on the slicer and then bying the Gyuto i really like. That said 400 is also My Max so suggestions at lower prices Are welcome, as long as it is quality.

Is the hattori hd slicer a Great knife or...?

Do I get a better knife by bying the Ryusen blazer bl 12 slicer. They cost about the same, but the blazer is not damascus.

Looking forward to your opinions, and other suggestions.

James
01-13-2013, 01:22 PM
hattori hd is a good cutter, but the steel is less glamorous than that of the blazen

franzb69
01-14-2013, 12:01 AM
the blazen over the hattori.

it'll take a better edge, have a longer lasting one though not as pretty but will outclass it in overall performance.

wenus2
01-14-2013, 04:18 AM
Do I get a better knife by bying the Ryusen blazer bl 12 slicer. They cost about the same, but the blazer is not damascus.
I would only steer you onto a better performing knife. :)
You will have to determine if you want to pay for beauty, performance, or both (very expensive).
It is like anything else in this world, you can pay a small fortune to have the absolute best or you can make some compromises and pay considerably less. The more you're willing to compromise the less you will pay.
Now you have a decent sized budget so you dont have to compromise a lot, but you will have to give something up.
My suggestion was that you give up almost nothing on the gyuto and sacrifice beauty on the slicer in order to meet your total budget, how you actually chooses to execute that is up to you. I can tell you from experience though, that if the Henckels is your prize knife now, you are about to enter a whole new class of cutlery. The step up will e so great that any of these knives should make you very happy... For a little while at least.

Can I assume you have no urgent need, as you stated these knives are for home use? So perhaps you just buy the Tanaka, if you are willing, and determine if you think it was worth the money to sacrifice nothing. If the answer is yes then save for a while longer before purchasing a similar slicer. If the answer is no, you should have a better idea of what you would rather sacrifice/spend. Perhaps you will decide a $90 Fujiwara FKM is enough or perhaps you will decide a $1500 stainless damascus custom from Devin Thomas is in order, I couldn't say.
Or you could do it the other way around, but the cheaper knife first and see if it makes you happy. It would likely be easy to sell for a small loss if you weren't satisfied.

I'm sorry there is no easy or cheap option I am aware of for a "great knife" in stainless damascus at your price. There are very good knives though, like the Hattori and the Hiromoto you listed. Of course the adjective "great" is relative to ones expectations, so who can really say. We are not generally known here for our rational opinions.

Here is a great knife fitting those criteria: http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/gesshin-1/gesshin-heiji/gesshin-heiji-240mm-kurouchi-damascus-semi-stainless-wa-gyuto.html#

quantumcloud509
01-14-2013, 04:38 AM
Welcome to the forum. After reading what you dont want Takeda sounds like its out of the option. As far as edge retrntion and extra sharp goes Aogami Supersteel is where its at for me.

mrandersdk
01-14-2013, 06:38 AM
Yeah you'r right don't need them right at this moment. I think I'm pretty much settled on the Tanaka 240mm Ironwood Gyuto, unless I get other great suggestions that can match both price, beauty and performance of this one. About the slicer I can see your point about bying the blazen (even though it is not damascus it is not ugly), and I will definitely take performance over looks. If I've was able to increase my budget to, let's say 500$ for the slicer also, could i then get both damascus and performance? Any suggestions for slicers in that price range?

My henckel is not my best knife, but it always does the job for what it was intended. I like my hammered damascus better, but they are too small for many tasks. They are also not in the price range of the Tanaka 240mm Ironwood Gyuto, but I think they are descent knifes anyway.

I don't think I've ever will spend 1500$ on a knife, but i guess I can see myself spending 500$, also have in mind that I live in Denmark so bying a 500$ knife in the US or Japan will probably cost me like 700$ when the import tax is paid.

Thanks for all the advice. Hope their is more to come.

eaglerock
01-14-2013, 06:07 PM
If you live in Denmark, then you should be buying from Maxim (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/):D

Here what i would pick. those knives will never disappoint :)

Singatirin Honyaki 240 mm Wa Gyuto (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Singatirin-Honyaki-240-mm-Wa-Gyuto-p/432.htm)

Zensho/Yoshikane V2 Sujihiki 270mm (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Zensho-Yoshikane-V2-Sujihiki-270mm-p/407.htm)

wenus2
01-14-2013, 06:13 PM
i guess I can see myself spending 500$, also have in mind that I live in Denmark so bying a 500$ knife in the US or Japan will probably cost me like 700$ when the import tax is paid.
Those fees are already included on this one:
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Zensho-Yoshikane-Damaskus-SLD-Sujihiki-270mm-p/639.htm

If you like the look (as I do) you might inquire into ordering a kurouchi version of that knife from the same shop.

wenus2
01-14-2013, 06:18 PM
If you live in Denmark, then you should be buying from Maxim (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/):D
Indeed!
In fact, as I alluded to above, you should contact him with your needs and see what he can come up with.
You can trust him to give good advice.

jaybett
01-14-2013, 06:39 PM
There are two ways of thinking about which knife a person who is new Japanese style knifes, should pick up. The general consensus is to pick up a less expensive knife and learn how to sharpen and use it. While Japanese knifes are considerably sharper then their German counterparts, they are much more fragile. The steel on a Japanese knife, will likely chip, when it hits something hard. The softer steel on a German knife will roll.

Others feel that a newbie will be okay with a higher end knife, if it is a thin edged laser. All that has to be sharpened is the edge. No need to thin the knife or maintain a convex bevel.

The steel on Japanese knives can take edges, that are far beyond the capability of most German knives. Getting those edges, requires the ability to sharpen. It makes sense, that the cost of a knife, should be related to a person's knife skills, both sharpening and technique. The harder the steel in a Japanese knife, the more skill it takes to sharpen it, and experience to use it.

In your post, it was mentioned that you sharpen your knifes. If you are comfortable with sharpening, pick up any knife that you like. You can always repair whatever nicks or dings the knife will get. If you feel that your sharpening skills are more basic, then a less expensive knife might be a better choice.

Japanese Chef Knife is a great source, for people living in Europe. Koki, the owner, is known for fast and efficient shipping. One of my purchases, was delivered on Christmas day! He seems knowledgeable of the import laws of most countries and how to keep the fees to a minimum. Japanese Natural Stones, which has a forum, on this site, would be another good source for people in Europe.

Japanese Knife Imports, is run by Jon and Sara Broida. They are both active members on the forum. Sara made a post a few months ago, where she mentioned that it is a given that all Japanese knives, are sharp. Makers are looking for characteristics that will enhance the cutting experience. The desirability of those characteristics or features are largely a personal choice.

When people are making recommendations, they are sharing what they value. Some people determine sharpness, by how easily a knife falls through the food. Typically that means a thin edged or laser style knife. Others prefer a heavier knife, where the weight helps with the cut. People who work in restaurants, may value edge retention. Others might be willing to give up edge retention if the knife is easy to sharpen.

It's hard to know to what features will work, until you experience them. That is another reason to pick up less expensive knifes. After you figure out your preferences, you will be able to make a better choice, or at least have better idea of which higher end knife will meet your needs.

Jay

ChiliPepper
01-15-2013, 04:55 AM
Nice post Jay

daddy yo yo
01-15-2013, 05:43 AM
There are two ways of thinking about which knife a person who is new Japanese style knifes, should pick up. The general consensus is to pick up a less expensive knife and learn how to sharpen and use it. (...)
Others feel that a newbie will be okay with a higher end knife, if it is a thin edged laser. Yeah, I am always torn between those two options myself. On the one hand, a knife is a tool, no more. So, there will be scratches, whether on the blade, the handle, wherever... With a less expensive knife, I don't care about imperfections. With a high-end, expensive knife, I'll start crying, I guess! One only has to decide at what price level inexpensive ends and expensive begins. This will be different with all of us, I am afraid.

I would always consider Hiromoto AS, and simple/reliable knives such as Hattori KF. Monosteels are generally a little more forgiving, aren't they. So, maybe I'd opt for smth like a VG10 or white#2, or the Hiromoto AS clad knife with stainless clad and carbon AS cutting edge. I believe that those are still reasonably priced.

ThEoRy
01-15-2013, 04:27 PM
Hiromoto AS sujihiki is a great idea for the slicer. Great steel, good price, great introduction to carbon since it's laminated with stainless and if you want great looks you can send it to Dave and have him thin and etch it for you which also increases the performance as well. It's a solid option for sure and still under budget even with the upgrade.

mrandersdk
01-16-2013, 05:32 PM
Thanks for All your help. Given me a lot to think about and ideas.

Was just wandering about something. Lets say i Was an expereinced knife maker, and had a well equipt shop. How much would it cost me to buy the materials needed to make a knife exactly like the tanaka Gyuto damascus? Not that i Will try, just interested in how much the actual materials for such a knife is. also assuming i can forge the damascus Steel from scratch. Hope someone can help me with this question.