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DWells
01-14-2013, 06:55 PM
These seem to be two of the favorite profiles/grinds out there, as evidenced by the number of clones and demand etc.

Post what you like about them, pics if ya got em. Curious to see what people have to say in relation to each.

schanop
01-14-2013, 07:10 PM
KS : thin, light, easy to get sharp, sold it
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6490/ks2403.jpg

Shig: prettier, taller, feels more solid, food does not stick as much, keeper
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BE8OM3YaoPQ/UOS454DfQDI/AAAAAAAAAvM/hQ9XbO94QVc/s1200/shigefusa_gyuto_5.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XWo2TSn2Jic/UOuRQFZ6zmI/AAAAAAAAAwM/BJYvUZLts4Y/s900/shig_gyutos_0.jpg

Marko Tsourkan
01-14-2013, 07:47 PM
I am familiar with both knives quite well.

Shige pros - grind, hand finish, attention to details, polish - you can see and sense a hand made knife. Cons - kasumi is very reactive, thinly ground kasumi knives can be bent with your fingers, a gyuto profile doesn't lend itself well for tip work, micro-chipping is often occurrence.

Masamoto pros - decent grind, thin, great profile (particularly for tip work), monosteel (will spring back when bent). Cons - reactive, a little bit on a soft side (~60RC), grind at the edge could be a little bit thinner. Thinning the Masamoto above the edge, and hand refinishing it will improve the performance and look.

Edge retention is better on Shigefusa, probably because of the additional hardness.

EdipisReks
01-14-2013, 07:54 PM
i love it that 60HRC counts as on the softer side. :)

Marko Tsourkan
01-14-2013, 07:59 PM
i love it that 60HRC counts as on the softer side. :)

When it comes to edge retention in some steels, two or three points (RC) make a big difference. White steel doesn't have alloys that improve wear resistance, so to get a little more juice of out the steel, it needs to be harder.

M

EdipisReks
01-14-2013, 08:02 PM
When it comes to edge retention in some steels, two or three points (RC) make a big difference. White steel doesn't have alloys that improve wear resistance, so to get a little more juice of out the steel, it needs to be harder.

M

i know. it's still funny, in a very good way. :)

DWells
01-14-2013, 08:24 PM
I've been thinking about this a little. Is the shig tip design meant for cutting tuna loins into blocks? The curve indicates meat cutting to me. The profile resembles many mioroshi. Glad to see that you have joined in the conversation Marko.

EdipisReks
01-14-2013, 08:25 PM
gyutos are based on French chef knives. French chef knives tend to cut a lot of meat.

DWells
01-14-2013, 08:50 PM
Indeed, cow-swords. I was thinking of what went into the specific design from the Japanese perspective. Tuna as Cows of the Sea.

I've not seen this done from start to finish, but are the two knives used in Japan to break down Wagyu into individual cuts a Honkatsu for hanging cuts, and then various gyutos for everything else?

mhlee
01-14-2013, 08:56 PM
From what I observed at Tsukiji last month, gyutos are generally not used to cut loins into blocks. I'll have to look to see if I got any pictures of any actual knives, but I recall seeing mostly yanagi used for cutting tuna into smaller blocks.

tk59
01-14-2013, 11:38 PM
Masamoto KS are also all over the place in terms of grind and fit and finish. Every Shig I've seen has been close to perfect in those respects although those that I've seen have been a little chunky.

Von blewitt
01-15-2013, 12:03 AM
I really liked the 270mm KS I've used, but I love Shigs, I currently have 3 shig gyutos, I have been considering picking up a 240 KS from Rakuten

DWells
01-15-2013, 12:43 AM
So the perceived quality differences have been duly noted. Both are highly prized for being sheer "cutters," yet each is on a different end of various spectrum. The KS profile is long, flat, and a minimal curve to meet a gradually tapered, thin and pointy tip. The grind is reported to be on the flatter side of things, and a thin spine.

The shig profile is still quite flat, yet has a far rounder tip, reported to be a bit thicker in geometry than the KS. Spines vary in thickness, but the grind of each is generally described as beautifully convex, with superb food release.

I'd like to explore the structural-aesthetic differences in each that lend reason to why people love to cut with them.

Squilliam
01-15-2013, 03:51 AM
Does the Shigefusa not also have a slight hollow in the top half / two-thirds made with a sen?

franzb69
01-15-2013, 04:41 AM
i read on a different thread that shigefusas also have quality control issues?

Lefty
01-15-2013, 05:13 AM
I haven't used a Shig (seriously), but I do own and use a KS, so I'll put my thoughts down about them, or mine, anyways. Come to think of it, I did use one before, as well.

The KS is a simple, utilitarian gyuto, made of a very simple carbon steel, it takes an incredible edge with minimal effort. As Marko stated, its HT is straightforward and solid, but doesn't optimize the edge holding capabilities of the steel (not that white steel is known for this trait, but you get the idea). The handle on my KS is plain as can be and to make matters worse, is a standard D. However, with all of that being said, the lack of anything on this knife makes its positive attributes stick out that much more, and the negatives even become positives, once you become acquainted with your KS.

The obvious positive traits of a KS that jump out at you the first time you handle the knife are:

Profile - it's perfect

Grind - Flattish, but thin (on mine and the one I used before). I've said this before and I'll say it again. I'll take a properly done thin grind that has some sticktion over an overly convexed grind every single time. A "Slab Sided" knife with a nice thin grind on the bottom 2/3s will always release food at the shinogi line. (Not that this is how the KS is done, but I'm explaining my previous statement).

Edge length/Feel - I thought my 240 ran short, because it felt so nimble and the tip was right there, begging to be used. I measured it and was more tha surprised to discover that it's actually a 250.

Taper - nice, gradual, properly done.

Blade Height - to me, this is a plus, but to some it would be a negative. I like shorter gyutos, and I think my KS is 43mm.

Performance - I find the KS cuts and feels exactly how I like a gyuto to do so. It's light, has the ability to fall through food and I could use it all day if I had to.

Now, those pesky negatives that turn to positives.... The reason the boring simple nature of this knife ends up being a good thing is because, you never have to worry about dinging the handle, scratching the blade, or taking too long on the stones, getting frustrated and suddenly doubting your ability to take a simple steel and turning it into a crazy sharp tool. Oh, andit turns out D handles are comfy....

As for Shigs, they seem to be wonderful knives, but I don't like the look of the tip. To me, it's too round and clumsy looking. Of course, I've never read that that's the case, so I could be wrong. Based on looks alone I'd take the profile of a KS, and I can't help but think the tip on one is better than that of a Shig, in use.

Realistically, they're both highly-coveted knives, and I'm sure it's for a reason.

daddy yo yo
01-15-2013, 05:35 AM
interesting, especially the - becoming + !!!

NO ChoP!
01-15-2013, 08:07 AM
Nimble is the word that comes to mind whenever I use my KS. It's lean and mean. But, I wouldn't call it thin and flat, as it's no laser....

rriley
01-15-2013, 08:53 AM
i read on a different thread that shigefusas also have quality control issues?

You're right! They have quality issues which involve extremely high quality and consistency. I have seven of them, purchased from several different sources, and all of them are absolutely fantastic knives.

franzb69
01-15-2013, 09:06 AM
look, if anyone here has taken offense in what i've said, that wasn't my intention. i was merely repeating something i read on a different forum. i was only asking for feedback from people who have constructive things to say. i wanted feedback from people who have had these knives and not get a sarcastic comment like yours.

this is why i ended my statement earlier with a question mark and not a period.

i apologize if i've ruffled any feathers here but as stated earlier, it was not my intention.

cookinstuff
01-15-2013, 09:34 AM
I don't think rriley's comment was sarcastic. He basically answered that he has 7 examples of great quality quantrol from shigefusa, pretty constructive in my opinion. I have seen 7 myself as well, 3 gyuto, 3 yanagiba and a nakiri, all were the best fit and finish j knives I have seen, on par with custom made knife fit and finish/polish. I have seen 2 masamoto KS, both were differerent lengths for same size knife, seems they are not as consistent, still wouldn't mind picking one up one day.

franzb69
01-15-2013, 09:39 AM
then apologize for misinterpreting it as such.

NO ChoP!
01-15-2013, 09:45 AM
I think the issue spoken of was broken tips through transit, no?
Maybe more a service over a quality issue....

franzb69
01-15-2013, 09:50 AM
I think the issue spoken of was broken tips through transit, no?
Maybe more a service over a quality issue....

yep i think that was the thread i was talking about on that other forum

jgraeff
01-15-2013, 10:06 AM
I have used both,

Ks is a fun knife with great profile, steel is not ideal considering retention.

Shig is a true cutter and workhorse. I loved that knife overall. It felt like an extension of my arm. If I were to get another gyuto it would be shig. Edge retention is good and edge taking is great.

Marko Tsourkan
01-15-2013, 10:10 AM
i read on a different thread that shigefusas also have quality control issues?

Almost none, as the knife is finished and sharpened by hand, and thus, more control, versus when done finishing on a machine.

One thing that you might find even on a Shige, is a a tiny dip at the edge (Tihn, that might have been what clunked, depending where it was). This kind of dips occur when a knife is thinned at the edge to a zero or close. Some people might call it overgrind, but it isn't - it is just at the edge and can be corrected with a tip-to-heel pass or two on a diamond plate (it thickens the edge slightly) and then you can either thin the edge or just cut a new bevel. Overgrind is done by a grinder of sorts, and it's a hollow that extends up the edge, and would require a lot more metal to be removed to correct it.

The two Masamoto that I thinned and refinished, none had grind issues, but both were about .016 at the edge (while Shige is about .005), so thinning both unleashed some potential in cutting. Also, refinishing Masamoto (from vertical to horizontal scratches), and putting a nice handle, changed the look of that knife from an average to a pretty nice.

Also, the earlier Shiges were much thicker on the spine and above! the edge (you can have any knife to be at zero at the edge, but to measure thickness, you need to take a measurement at 10mm above the edge). It is relatively recently that Shigefusa started grinding thinner, not the least because of this forum.

Both are different knives and should appeal to people's cutting styles. Performance wise, a thin Shigefusa gyuto will separate food better, but you will have to raise the handle more if you do a lot of tip work and be careful not to bend it, particularly with a sujihiki. Bending is not a problem with Masamoto.

M

franzb69
01-15-2013, 10:15 AM
thank you marko for clarification.

maxim
01-15-2013, 10:41 AM
I think in that level of handmade knife there will always be imperfections or small mistakes, but overall i think they are very consistent knives

Marko Tsourkan
01-15-2013, 10:47 AM
+1

Not all handmade knives are equal, and when it comes to fit, finish, grind, attention to detail and consistency (it's the only maker who spends work on a tang) Shigefusa is in the top 3 in my opinion. They definitely take a pride in their work. I have always admired that.

bieniek
01-15-2013, 01:41 PM
Why are we comparing soulful primadonna for 600 with soulless killer for 300??

Marko Tsourkan
01-15-2013, 01:49 PM
Why are we comparing soulful primadonna for 600 with soulless killer for 300??

Because both were made to be used and not looked (and awe) at. Both are good knives, although different
Price here is besides the point., unless you have a budget.

Lucretia
01-15-2013, 02:06 PM
I haven't tried the KS but I will say this about my Shig. I have some arthritis in my hands and wrists, and when it comes to chopping hard vegetables (carrots, potatoes, etc.) NONE of my knifes slide through things as easily as my Shig. Don't get me wrong--I have knives that do a bang-up jobs and cut beautifully with minimal effort, but with the Shig I actually find myself slowing down cuts because it just feels so amazingly smooth going through things that it's a pleasure to use--and NO pain in the wrists. I know it's not the comparison that you were looking for, but if I had to replace my Shig I wouldn't bat an eye at paying 2 or 3 times as much as the original cost--just because it's so much easier on my old bones.

bieniek
01-15-2013, 02:15 PM
I dont understand why would Bob Kramer be any kind of reference point. And then why you bother finishing your blades to a nice level if a same theoretical knife with deeper scratches cuts as well as the polished one?

Do those two knives work same way? I think price has much to do with it.

Just cut a bag of potatoes with both. ;) I would hate life after a bag of pots sliced with M.

If I like Masamotos edge better, the keenness is amazing and every masamoto knife I owned had it. The beast.

Not to say Shig is somehow handicapped in this aspect. Is getting scary, but there are different "grades of feeling"

Edge retention I recently stopped to care I have stones and I know how to use them so cannot help in comparison.
Easily could sharpen both every day but weekly is kind of a routine.

I dont care about what number steel is it, how much mactungsten and kosmobicarb it posess.

Finish well hehe nobody cares about that at masamotos, not even the boy that brings the handles. It suppose to cut and it does, but dont cut potatoes!! :tease:

Blade + handle or blade + love + handle, that is the question.

Marko Tsourkan
01-15-2013, 03:19 PM
I see your point and in some ways I agree with you. I studied these knives (and cut with both) extensively and admit that both have influenced my work, though in different ways.

To say that one knife is so much better than another, or that another is clearly worse than the first, would be wrong. Each has strong and weak points.

Notice that I don't take sides in this discussion.

However, personally, on F&F I am clearly closer to Shigefusa than Masamoto. I think one has to offer a complete product, and F&F is a part of the package. On the profile, I am closer to Masamoto.



M

mpukas
01-15-2013, 04:49 PM
...on F&F I am clearly closer to Shigefusa than Masamoto... On the profile, I am closer to Masamoto.

M

You're on your way to The One, Marko!

Lucretia
01-15-2013, 05:21 PM
Marko's F&F is some of the very best I've seen. Absolutely beautiful knives.

DWells
01-15-2013, 06:04 PM
And that is why we all want one Marko.

Let me be clear. There are multiple aesthetic parameters that coalesce into a beautiful knife, cutting, general attention to detail etc. I was merely trying to compare the cutting aesthetic elements together. I understand the greater elements of production are vastly different, and the prices reflect their fair market value to a large extent.

EdipisReks
01-15-2013, 06:06 PM
i really need to try a new Shig (mine was used, and has gone through many grind iterations). the KS is a good knife, but nothing all that special.

labor of love
01-15-2013, 06:29 PM
yep i think that was the thread i was talking about on that other forum

the other forum seems to have no problem pointing out whatever supposed QC flaws shigs have, yet at the same time pushing products exclusive to Mark and preferably knives from the ******** line. infact, several of his cohorts do the arguing for him nowadays. they will naturally promote only **** products because its his forum, afterall. Mostly everything ive read there has a serious bias and you definitely made the right choice by looking for a second opinion.

Marko Tsourkan
01-15-2013, 06:44 PM
the other forum seems to have no problem pointing out whatever supposed QC flaws shigs have, yet at the same time pushing products exclusive to Mark and preferably knives from the ******** line. infact, several of his cohorts do the arguing for him nowadays. they will naturally promote only **** products because its his forum, afterall. Mostly everything ive read there has a serious bias and you definitely made the right choice by looking for a second opinion.

I have seen many Shiges (probably fewer than Maxim, but still plenty). I didn't read the thread on the other forum, but I can tell you from my long admiration of Shigefusa - it doesn' get better than this on a fit and finish, grind, polish (kasumi is good but kitaeji is top notch) for a hand forged knife. The recent ones have been particularly good.

I have seen a tiny dip in the edge here and there, but relatively speaking, this is nothing. After a couple sharpening sessions, it will be gone, or you can reprofile the blade (a couple of passes on a diamond plate tip-to-heel to remove the dip) and cut a new bevel. Even after reprofiling, your edge will be thinner than of most knives on the market.

Masamoto will need a little bit of thinning 10mm or so above the edge (and at the edge) to get a better performance out of it, but it's not a bad knife. Profile is what makes it a performance knife, as well as thickness and weight.

M

SameGuy
01-15-2013, 07:15 PM
;) I would hate life after a bag of pots sliced with M.

It suppose to cut and it does, but dont cut potatoes!! :tease:

Blade + handle or blade + love + handle, that is the question.

OMG too true. I chunked a 2 kg bag of larger Yukon Golds for potato salad last night. I was ready to hack my own hand off they were sticking so bad!

EdipisReks
01-15-2013, 07:26 PM
OMG too true. I chunked a 2 kg bag of larger Yukon Golds for potato salad last night. I was ready to hack my own hand off they were sticking so bad!

hah, yeah, almost any of the simply ground monosteel knives like this are going to be like that. :)

Lucretia
01-15-2013, 08:07 PM
OMG too true. I chunked a 2 kg bag of larger Yukon Golds for potato salad last night. I was ready to hack my own hand off they were sticking so bad!

This forum has given me a whole new level of respect for you guys. I am ready to start whining after 8 or 10 spuds for a pot of potato soup!

Squilliam
01-15-2013, 09:04 PM
Not all handmade knives are equal, and when it comes to fit, finish, grind, attention to detail and consistency (it's the only maker who spends work on a tang) Shigefusa is in the top 3 in my opinion. They definitely take a pride in their work. I have always admired that.

Out of curiosity, who are the other two?

DWells
01-15-2013, 09:11 PM
Out of curiosity, who are the other two?

Now that's a good question. Though, it's also one I doubt Marko would answer publicly.

franzb69
01-15-2013, 11:12 PM
Mostly everything ive read there has a serious bias and you definitely made the right choice by looking for a second opinion.

thanks. i prefer getting opinions from a lot of people.

Patatas Bravas
01-15-2013, 11:41 PM
I am curious with the discussion here. Generally are the KS and Shigefusa the two most commonly favourite gyuto knives from Japan? Are there popular rivals?

Marko Tsourkan
01-15-2013, 11:48 PM
Out of curiosity, who are the other two?

I have my favorites, and Shigefusa is one of them.

bieniek
01-16-2013, 06:40 AM
I see your point and in some ways I agree with you. I studied these knives (and cut with both) extensively and admit that both have influenced my work, though in different ways.

To say that one knife is so much better than another, or that another is clearly worse than the first, would be wrong. Each has strong and weak points.

Notice that I don't take sides in this discussion.

However, personally, on F&F I am clearly closer to Shigefusa than Masamoto. I think one has to offer a complete product, and F&F is a part of the package. On the profile, I am closer to Masamoto.



M

Im trying not to take sides either. I like both brands, have knives from both, and would consider both when getting a knife[just bought masamoto mioroshi], but not the chefs knife.
Masamoto single bevel or a slicer.
Shigefusa every style expecially single bevels.

All I meant, we talk "gyuto", versatile, all round knife.
I dont know what shigefusa does worse than Masamoto, but I know that it does one thing better for sure, the potato ;)