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View Full Version : Hiromoto AS Thickness question



ChiliPepper
01-16-2013, 10:21 PM
I've been reading a lot about the Hiromoto AS being a very good knife albeit suffering from excessive thickness. To the point where even Dave proposed a package that includes thinning. Now, I'm looking at JCK and the 210 gyuto is reported to be 2.2 mm thick at the heel and the 240 2.4mm. Wouldn't these be considered almost laser thicknesses? Or is it thickness behind the edge that causes the issue?

ThEoRy
01-16-2013, 10:27 PM
Yeah it's like a clunky convexing behind the edge. Kinda stout if you will.

Benuser
01-16-2013, 10:51 PM
It's the kind of knife you always have to thin. The thickening behind the edge is quite abrupt. Can easily be adjusted. But whatever you do, it will never become a laser - nor should it.

El Pescador
01-16-2013, 10:51 PM
She has some fat ankles...

Dusty
01-17-2013, 03:35 AM
My wife's 210 needed very little thinning to tune it up to being a very solid performer. Perhaps the 240s are a bit chunkier.

Benuser
01-17-2013, 10:22 AM
No, there is just some variance. All depends on the amount of cladding that has been removed while setting the factory bevels. Sometimes you see that a lot has been removed, sometimes just a few millimeters.
At some point you've to remove cladding again. Otherwise you may integrate a clad part into your edge...
Don't ask how I know, please.

franzb69
01-17-2013, 10:31 AM
but once thinned properly and thinned to the point that you get maximum performance out of it, the hiromoto AS is a great knife. =D

done by Dave Martell

when i finally have enough cash and i will get one done by him.

Benuser
01-17-2013, 10:53 AM
I believe it's always a great knife, and even greater value. You will see best results after thinning, but that's true for a lot of others as well.
Please be aware that straight out of the box it's already an exceptional performer. You may maintain that high performance level by thinning each time you sharpen.

mark76
01-17-2013, 03:58 PM
Does anyone know at what angle it has been sharpened originally?

Benuser
01-17-2013, 04:18 PM
Does anyone know at what angle it has been sharpened originally?
you may expect almost everything, between 18 and 30 degree inclusive, proportions between 50/50 and 80/20. They just don't care as the end user will put his own edge on it.

Benuser
01-17-2013, 05:03 PM
The edge is off-centered in a 70/30 proportion though. Koki suggests 12/15 degree FWIW.

ChiliPepper
01-17-2013, 09:19 PM
Please be aware that straight out of the box it's already an exceptional performer. You may maintain that high performance level by thinning each time you sharpen.

Right, but couldn't you do the thinning just once over a larger portion of the blade and call it a day (well, many months of domestic use I guess)? Or is there something inherently wrong in doing so?

Benuser
01-17-2013, 09:40 PM
Inherently wrong, well, these aren't my words. A large thinning operation will certainly improve performance drastically. Even then, I believe you have the best results and keep the high level of performance by starting any sharpening job by thinning a little behind the edge.

ChiliPepper
01-17-2013, 10:03 PM
Thanks for helping me understand Ben!

Benuser
01-17-2013, 10:40 PM
You're welcome, hope it helps. When you want to restore performance with a knife, you can't just restore the very edge. You have to restore the previous geometry, The entire configuration is moved a little upwards. And there comes the taper. Especially jig users are so focused on their edge they tend to overlook this aspect.

Sambal
01-18-2013, 06:25 AM
Does anyone know if the Hiromoto TJ Santoku have the same blade thickness problem?

Chefdog
01-18-2013, 08:00 AM
Does anyone know if the Hiromoto TJ Santoku have the same blade thickness problem?

I wouldn't exactly consider this a "problem" for most users. Compared to the vast majority of western style knives being used in restaurants and houses everywhere, the Hiro's are superior cutters with better steel and geometry.
It's only when put in the context of a handful of "better" knives, and very discerning users (like many forum members here) that they can begin to be called thick. If your frame of reference is a Wushof, or Forschner, or even a Mac, I'd say you would be impressed by a Hiromoto, and rightfully so.
Can the cutting abilty be improved by thinning the blade, certainly. But be aware that thinner isnt always better and thinning comes with a compromise of edge durability and may not be to everyone's benefit depending on your technique and preferences.

Benuser
01-19-2013, 05:50 PM
Great post...

Sambal
01-19-2013, 09:23 PM
[QUOTE=Chefdog;173313]I wouldn't exactly consider this a "problem" for most users. Compared to the vast majority of western style knives being used in restaurants and houses everywhere, the Hiro's are superior cutters with better steel and geometry.

Point taken, thanks Chefdog, but I'd still like to know if anyone has experience with both the Hiromoto TJ santoku and the gyuto in terms of their comparable thicknesses.

tk59
01-20-2013, 12:08 AM
I, for one, used a Hiro AS for a while. I'd read that fit and finish is an issue on these but mine had no such issue. What I did find is the AS steel doesn't hold an edge like other examples I've used (Takeda, Zakuri, Moritaka) and while it isn't a terrible cutter, I found its cutting performance to be mediocre relative to other Japanese knives of which I've tried out something like a hundred different lines/makes by now. It's a very good knife but amongst Japanese knives, I would rate it fairly average in its price range.

ChiliPepper
01-20-2013, 12:26 AM
It's a very good knife but amongst Japanese knives, I would rate it fairly average in its price range.

See, that's where I get confused: a Hiromoto 210 gyuto costs 145 usd shipped. What do you consider is the best price/performance value in that range?

tk59
01-20-2013, 12:39 AM
You'd have to decide what it is you value most in a kitchen knife. If you really need something exactly like the Hiro AS, that may very well be the best you can do. I once had a guy come to my home so I could sharpen his Hiro AS (which he bought after scouring the forums). He compared it side by side with a CarboNEXT I'd bought a month earlier for testing, both with fresh edges on a number of different types of food items. He left with my CN. I did absolutely nothing to influence him, btw other than to let him try out a few other knives. Everyone here knows my house is like a black hole. Once I buy something it rarely goes out. He just seems so happy with the knife, I had to let him take it...

ThEoRy
01-20-2013, 12:42 AM
Point taken, thanks Chefdog, but I'd still like to know if anyone has experience with both the Hiromoto TJ santoku and the gyuto in terms of their comparable thicknesses.


I think the real question is, what on earth do you need a santoku for? The only thing it's decent at is chopping small vegetables. That's it.

Sorry, someone had to say it :cool:

Von blewitt
01-20-2013, 12:55 AM
I think the real question is, what on earth do you need a santoku for? The only thing it's decent at is chopping small vegetables. That's it.

Sorry, someone had to say it :cool:
I recently bought a 210mm Heiji santoku for my girlfriend, and I'm surprised how much I like it! (I'd only tried 165mm before) for home use I think it's a great knife

DwarvenChef
01-20-2013, 01:24 AM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/DwarvenChef/HASSet6-9-082.jpg

From early in my discovery of Japanese blades I was very happy with the Hiromoto AS line. It comes down to what you want and like using. I've played with the lasers quite a fe times and they just don't hold much for me, I seem happier with a heavier blade. Over the past 8 years I have bounced around and I keep falling back onto the H AS knives I kept, several in the above pic have moved to new homes. I wrote many reports on these over the years and I really would love to read them again all these years later and see what may have changed LOL.

As for the heft behind the edge I can't say as to what is better, these are medium weight knives and it's what I expect from a mid weight blade. Thinning it brings it down to a lighter weight blade but maybe not into the light weight catigory... and at what cost? Granted the work that Dave has been doing with the AS line looks fantastic and really brings out a posable art to the blade, not a bad endevour if thats what your after. However I would worry about the heft and stiffness loss due to the thinning, something I come to expect in my H AS blades. While I no longer have a shorter H AS knife at this time, only have the long blades, my 2 mid sized blades are the Hiromoto HC 240 and Koshi 210.

At work on the line I really liked the SS cladding over the AS edge. Not liking stainless steel edges I have to say having stainless cladding gave me the best of both worlds till i discovered cleavers for line work :p

One of my pipe dreams has been to get several different makers of SS clad with carbon core knives, Carter has been high on the list but not being well off never something I would be able to get LOL.

All in all you have to find your own sweet spot for the knife your looking for and it's intended use. I have 4 knives in the 210/240 range but they all have very different profiles that I use in different ways at home. At work I have fallen to the cleaver and do most of my work with that blade. Now days I'm pretty settled in the knives I use for how I cook and only really get excited about handmade blades in a few styles, nothing I can deal with nowdays :p Use is the most important thing to me and I now need to find a vintage butchery cleaver, my CCK 1202 is a bit light for some work.

Thats about all I have in mind so far :p

ThEoRy
01-20-2013, 01:44 AM
Okay 210mm...I'll give you a pass on that one. I think the Hiromoto AS santoku only goes up to 190mm though.

Sambal
01-20-2013, 01:49 AM
[QUOTE=ThEoRy;173726]I think the real question is, what on earth do you need a santoku for? The only thing it's decent at is chopping small vegetables. That's it.

Well, that's precisely it! For my prep work I like to pair a small knife with a gyuto. I actually like going from a larger and heavier gyuto to a smaller and lighter knife back and forth depending on what I'm cutting. I personally find it more efficient and the variety in handling different knives makes it seem less tiring. I don't know why but I've never found the petty or paring to be "right" in this pairing with my gyuto. Been using a Global bunka type of around 140mm and I'm looking to replace this with a similar type but in CS and preferably but not necessarily with stainless cladding. So I'm looking at the Hiromoto santoku 160mm. I'd prefer it if it was 140mm and I wondered about the thickness. I'm open to all suggestions. And apologies, I didn't want to veer this thread off but since you ask . . .

keithsaltydog
01-20-2013, 02:20 AM
As usual diff. opinions all said,bottom line is what you like.I luv. my carbons so long my first knife wt. any stainless in many yrs. was a Hiro AS 6" petty.In Gardemanger work petty's come in handy.My favorite all time petty was my Masamoto carbon steel thin blade.Somehow it dissappeared at work one day.Still have the Saya that came wt. it.The Hiromoto AS replaced it & served me well.

bieniek
01-20-2013, 02:32 AM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/DwarvenChef/HASSet6-9-082.jpg

From early in my discovery of Japanese blades I was very happy with the Hiromoto AS line. It comes down to what you want and like using. I've played with the lasers quite a fe times and they just don't hold much for me, I seem happier with a heavier blade. Over the past 8 years I have bounced around and I keep falling back onto the H AS knives I kept, several in the above pic have moved to new homes. I wrote many reports on these over the years and I really would love to read them again all these years later and see what may have changed LOL.

As for the heft behind the edge I can't say as to what is better, these are medium weight knives and it's what I expect from a mid weight blade. Thinning it brings it down to a lighter weight blade but maybe not into the light weight catigory... and at what cost? Granted the work that Dave has been doing with the AS line looks fantastic and really brings out a posable art to the blade, not a bad endevour if thats what your after. However I would worry about the heft and stiffness loss due to the thinning, something I come to expect in my H AS blades. While I no longer have a shorter H AS knife at this time, only have the long blades, my 2 mid sized blades are the Hiromoto HC 240 and Koshi 210.

At work on the line I really liked the SS cladding over the AS edge. Not liking stainless steel edges I have to say having stainless cladding gave me the best of both worlds till i discovered cleavers for line work :p

One of my pipe dreams has been to get several different makers of SS clad with carbon core knives, Carter has been high on the list but not being well off never something I would be able to get LOL.

All in all you have to find your own sweet spot for the knife your looking for and it's intended use. I have 4 knives in the 210/240 range but they all have very different profiles that I use in different ways at home. At work I have fallen to the cleaver and do most of my work with that blade. Now days I'm pretty settled in the knives I use for how I cook and only really get excited about handmade blades in a few styles, nothing I can deal with nowdays :p Use is the most important thing to me and I now need to find a vintage butchery cleaver, my CCK 1202 is a bit light for some work.

Thats about all I have in mind so far :p

After reading this I looked at the Hiromoto in a totally different light ;)

I sold mine cause the thinning was a pain, and I mean the necessary thinning that just helps you keep the blade cutting properly.
And you know the S cladding would be cool but because it wont rust you would like it to be polished. Never managed to get it polished cause was always thinning.
Low heel was also not for me.
Edge was nice but its not the creme de la creme.

But you said something very important, these are for under 200 dollars [most of them] And is that price bracket you really get enough. More than enough.

toddnmd
01-20-2013, 04:46 PM
Does anyone know if the Hiromoto TJ Santoku have the same blade thickness problem?

I recently got the Hiro AS santoku, and I like it quite a bit, even with the ootb edge. It cuts quite easily, and even compares favorably (by just a bit) with my Konosuke HD gyuto. The metal on the handle was a bit high when I got it.

Sambal
01-20-2013, 07:00 PM
I recently got the Hiro AS santoku, and I like it quite a bit, even with the ootb edge. It cuts quite easily, and even compares favorably (by just a bit) with my Konosuke HD gyuto. The metal on the handle was a bit high when I got it.

Thanks Todd. This nudges me closer to getting one.

toddnmd
01-21-2013, 08:13 AM
I know a lot of serious knife knuts don't think much of the santoku. But there are some times when that blade size (and/or a smaller board) just feels right. I agree that you give up a little versatility with the santoku, but if I have to dice one onion, it's just fine. (I'm a home cook.)

echerub
01-21-2013, 08:13 PM
I have a fair bit of choice when it comes to knives and I still like using santoku sometimes. It's not the knife you'd want to use for serious volume, but as home cooks I think it can be a perfectly good choice.

Yoni Lang
02-14-2013, 08:18 PM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/DwarvenChef/HASSet6-9-082.jpg

From early in my discovery of Japanese blades I was very happy with the Hiromoto AS line. It comes down to what you want and like using. I've played with the lasers quite a fe times and they just don't hold much for me, I seem happier with a heavier blade. Over the past 8 years I have bounced around and I keep falling back onto the H AS knives I kept, several in the above pic have moved to new homes. I wrote many reports on these over the years and I really would love to read them again all these years later and see what may have changed LOL.

As for the heft behind the edge I can't say as to what is better, these are medium weight knives and it's what I expect from a mid weight blade. Thinning it brings it down to a lighter weight blade but maybe not into the light weight catigory... and at what cost? Granted the work that Dave has been doing with the AS line looks fantastic and really brings out a posable art to the blade, not a bad endevour if thats what your after. However I would worry about the heft and stiffness loss due to the thinning, something I come to expect in my H AS blades. While I no longer have a shorter H AS knife at this time, only have the long blades, my 2 mid sized blades are the Hiromoto HC 240 and Koshi 210.

At work on the line I really liked the SS cladding over the AS edge. Not liking stainless steel edges I have to say having stainless cladding gave me the best of both worlds till i discovered cleavers for line work :p

One of my pipe dreams has been to get several different makers of SS clad with carbon core knives, Carter has been high on the list but not being well off never something I would be able to get LOL.

All in all you have to find your own sweet spot for the knife your looking for and it's intended use. I have 4 knives in the 210/240 range but they all have very different profiles that I use in different ways at home. At work I have fallen to the cleaver and do most of my work with that blade. Now days I'm pretty settled in the knives I use for how I cook and only really get excited about handmade blades in a few styles, nothing I can deal with nowdays :p Use is the most important thing to me and I now need to find a vintage butchery cleaver, my CCK 1202 is a bit light for some work.

Thats about all I have in mind so far :p


good post that brings it down to earth.. buy a knife for what you need it for.. sharpen it for how you'll use it.. keeps things simple. i've been considering a 240mm for a while and think it's time to bite the bullet. i'll be using it to break down fish after the deba does the dirty work. was thinking thickness might be an issue, but since i'll be going through bone a lot with these fishies (ribs mostly), the extra weight might be advantageous. as long as its thinned regularly I'm guessing there isn't really any hinderances?