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vicv
01-20-2013, 08:54 AM
I know these knives have been discussed a lot here but I have a couple questions. Are they really as easy to sharpen as carbon blades? I know that's a loaded question because some carbon knives don't sharpen so well but on average. Also I'm under the impression jknives are superior not only for their thinness and geometry but also they're a harder steel so the edge lasts longer. These are rated at 59-61 hrc. 61 isn't bad but at 59 that's comparable to Germans. Which isn't very good and since I don't use a steel... And last but not least I'm a lefty. Will the asymmetry be a downside for me? Thanks. Really I'm looking at the carbonext because it's priced well and doesn't seem to need a lot of work besides the edge itself. I'm no where near to level to buy something like the Hiromoto AS and the work it entails and after owning several stainless knives I'll never buy another

franzb69
01-20-2013, 09:09 AM
a carbonext would be a good idea for you. best value introduction into semi stainless type knives and practice for carbons.

vicv
01-20-2013, 09:23 AM
I already have a couple carbons. A custom EDC O1 knife and a cck slicer. No Japanese knife yet though

NO ChoP!
01-20-2013, 09:35 AM
59 isn't too soft. Most Germans are in the lower 50's. Some have bumped up to 58 in recent times, in response to the popularity of jknives.

A couple points I think often get ignored with the carbonext. The edge is terrible. Will need a bevel set right away, meaning you will need a lower grit stone. Also, its geometry is nearly flat; not good for stiction....

vicv
01-20-2013, 09:41 AM
I'm used to stiction. That cck is awful. Doesn't bother me though. I just swipe it off. I've pretty much thinned out the edge on all my knives. Have a 220 naniwa or if feeling brave the belt grinder. Wusthof knives are rated around 58 hrc and it really is too soft

NO ChoP!
01-20-2013, 10:20 AM
Only higher ended Wusty are 58. Most henckel and Wusty are 52 to 54...

@ 59-61 with a semi stainless, you will have a very tough and long lasting edge.

vicv
01-20-2013, 10:57 AM
Ok. Ya my wusthof is the grand prize 2. When I actually use it it doesn't last long. What about the asymmetry?

ThEoRy
01-20-2013, 01:14 PM
Doesn't matter since you have to set your own edge immediately anyway. Just create the initial bevel with a left handed asymmetry.

vicv
01-20-2013, 01:17 PM
But isn't the whole knife ground asymmetrically?

Rottman
01-20-2013, 01:25 PM
Koki/JCK mention on their site that lefty blades are available on the carbonext and you should email for the price.

vicv
01-20-2013, 01:43 PM
I may try that. I've usually found though that pricing on lefty knives is quite high

mano
01-20-2013, 01:43 PM
Koki/JCK mention on their site that lefty blades are available on the carbonext and you should email for the price.

No need to. I gifted a righty CN gyuto to a lefty friend, adjusted to bevel to 50/50 and no problems. It's a great knife.

vicv
01-20-2013, 01:55 PM
Ok thanks. No worry then

vicv
01-20-2013, 01:55 PM
What would I do? Mostly thin the knife on the left side when I'm cutting new bevels?

Rottman
01-20-2013, 02:11 PM
I may try that. I've usually found though that pricing on lefty knives is quite high

I would expect the lefty bonus on this line to be around 10% ...

NO ChoP!
01-20-2013, 02:51 PM
The carbonext has nearly flat grind. Bevel adjustment should be adequate. I'm a lefty, too...

gic
01-20-2013, 03:43 PM
I just got a Carbonext as well, nice knife except the edge is really bad. Is there any reason *not* to make it symmetrical? It's easy enough on the edge pro (if a bit of a pain) to keep or make any asymmetry you want I have discovered but it is so much easier to deal with symmetric knives. Do you really see the benefits of a 70.30 or 60/40 asymmetric edge??

vicv
01-20-2013, 04:16 PM
Maybe I'm not understanding this but isn't it the entire grind and geometry of the blade that's asymmetrical? Not the edge? I mean the edge I can easily fix but if it's in the design of the whole thing that's not an easy fix because I have to get the edge back in line with down the center with the spine. That's how I understand it anyway

NO ChoP!
01-20-2013, 05:16 PM
Jknives usually have a flat sided face and a convexed face. Some are heavily convexed, others not. Carbonext has a flattish grind, which is good for lefties, but not good for food release.

NO ChoP!
01-20-2013, 05:20 PM
Difference in asymmetric edges is the more offset, the more accute the angle, meaning sharper. The drawbacks are edge retention and steering.

stevenStefano
01-20-2013, 05:22 PM
I'd ask Koki about getting a lefty one definitely. It is still ground asymmetrically even though I think it's only like 60/40, I'd still ask him. And the OOTB edge is horrific, probably the worst OOTB edge I have ever used, I usually use knives for a while with the original edge to get a feel for them but I couldn't bear it with the Carbonext

vicv
01-20-2013, 05:50 PM
Just rough as in not finished to being sharp or full regrind bad?

stevenStefano
01-20-2013, 05:53 PM
There is an edge on it, but it is pretty bad. Nothing sharpening wouldn't fix, but OOTB edges are usually a little better, that's all

vicv
01-20-2013, 06:50 PM
Ok thanks. It's still up in the air. I may still buy the masamoto ct or the suien vg. So many choices! Or a moritaka blue #2. Hesitant on that though from the grind issues I've read about. They're all generally in the same price range

Cadillac J
01-21-2013, 02:29 PM
Let me just say this -- out of all the knives I've owned or used over the years, my 240 CN would be one of the last to go.

Might sound weird to many, but this knife just plain does the job...it fits the bill for what I value most: performance. Of course that is not right out of the box, but with some sharpening know-how and tweaking, it can be a beast...don't let the 59 or whatever hrc fool you. Funny that I originally wasn't a fan of the profile, and wished it had a wa-handle, and hoped Koki would change the name, and blah blah blah...but it has became one of my favorites for its simplicity. This is just one man's opinion.

http://i48.tinypic.com/1yn3vq.jpg

Jmadams13
01-21-2013, 04:39 PM
+1^. I love my 240 for the same reason above, it's a simple knife. It takes a beating, and keeps on going. It's become my loaner here at work, but still love taking her home for a workout there too. My edge OOTB wasn't too too bad, but did need a little work. I'm thinking of a rehandle for mine soon, but keeping it western. I have thought about selling it, but just can't get myself to do it.

If you done mind putting in a nights worth of work into her, I think you'll be plenty happy

vicv
01-21-2013, 05:30 PM
Its not that I mind putting work into it. It's that I don't know what to do. I can put a decent edge on a knife but anything like that would be beyond my skill level and I wouldn't want to ruin something I just spent $150 on

G-rat
01-21-2013, 06:02 PM
Its not that I mind putting work into it. It's that I don't know what to do. I can put a decent edge on a knife but anything like that would be beyond my skill level and I wouldn't want to ruin something I just spent $150 on

I am sort of obsessed about knives...but then again I get obsessed with anything I love...that being said I have had this attitude as well and I will say without hesitation that feeling as though you have ruined a $500 knife was the best teacher I have ever had for understanding how to make that knife (a tool albeit a handmade incredibly beautiful soulful object) do what i want it to do so that it performs its task well as a tool. That same $500 knife now sings in my hand and it feels awesome. You may not feel the same way but knife maintenance is a slippery slope. Once you have sharpened until you have to thin the knife it is all downhill from there towards really understanding how to maintain and respect the geometry of a knife and to make it do what you want. I say go for it. If you want that knife to do what you want you will eventually have to learn how to make it do what you want regardless of how much money you spent on it.

vicv
01-21-2013, 06:16 PM
Very true. Thanks

Dusty
01-21-2013, 06:51 PM
I want to go back to the original post just for a minute. You say that you're looking at a carbonext because your interested in a carbon knife but don't want to go through all of the thinning work etc that a hiro AS will entail.

The carbonext ships pretty much without an edge. The Hiromoto AS ships sharp. It will outperform a carbonext out of the box. Don't get me wrong, I love my carbonext. But if a Hiromoto AS is your first choice, I'd get that. It is said to be a bit thick behind the edge, but if you're coming to a hiro from a wusthof, it's going to feel like a piece of sharpened tinfoil for a while. Thinning a knife behind the edge is no more difficult than establishing a bevel, and you won't need to do it right away.

You should probably get both.

labor of love
01-21-2013, 07:40 PM
Theres a hiromoto in bst for $125. Not a bad price for a 270mm.

tk59
01-21-2013, 08:40 PM
...Do you really see the benefits of a 70.30 or 60/40 asymmetric edge??Yes.

As for the OOTB edge on CN, it is serviceable but not great. Buying a knife based on the OOTB edge isn't the wisest thing, IMO. If you really like to cut with a NICE edge, you will have to do frequent touching up or sharpening with either of these. The HiroAS will sharpen up slightly easier but the difference is negligible. Also, Wusties (even the nicer ones) aren't great unless you really like the profile. HRC 59-61 is a typical range for typical hard use knives, even the high end stuff, esp stainless. It's pretty much a given that your knife is going to be tempered to a hardness range.

vicv
01-21-2013, 09:45 PM
I also don't care about the 00tb edge. That I can do. It's the rest. Oh well. I've got to learn sometime!

stevenStefano
01-22-2013, 06:27 PM
I picked a Carbonext up about a week ago and last night I sharpened and thinned it a bit and I gotta say I'm very impressed. I didn't thin it all that much and it performs pretty good. I have a Western Kono HD and they are almost identical. I'd say the Carbonext steel takes more of a "patina" but in every other aspect they are almost the same, although of course the Carbonext cost about $170 less than the HD does now. The fit and finish was actually better on my Carbonext too.

labor of love
01-22-2013, 06:51 PM
I picked a Carbonext up about a week ago and last night I sharpened and thinned it a bit and I gotta say I'm very impressed. I didn't thin it all that much and it performs pretty good. I have a Western Kono HD and they are almost identical. I'd say the Carbonext steel takes more of a "patina" but in every other aspect they are almost the same, although of course the Carbonext cost about $170 less than the HD does now. The fit and finish was actually better on my Carbonext too.
thats quite a statment. how do the handles compare?

stevenStefano
01-22-2013, 06:57 PM
I think the Carbonext handle is a little slimmer compared to the HD from what I can remember as I got my HD rehandled. A few people in the past said that the Carbonext and HD were the same knife but they definitely aren't

ThEoRy
01-22-2013, 07:48 PM
I think the Carbonext handle is a little slimmer compared to the HD from what I can remember as I got my HD rehandled. A few people in the past said that the Carbonext and HD were the same knife but they definitely aren't

I've never heard that statement before. I've always believed the carbonext to be a Kikiuchi Performance/tkc clone.

labor of love
01-22-2013, 07:51 PM
i remember hearing the carbonext and the tkc were the same but with different handles.

Cadillac J
01-24-2013, 07:41 PM
The fit and finish was actually better on my Carbonext too.

My Carbonext handle is just like yours -- fitted perfectly and very comfortable. I also had a 270 CN suji when they first came out, and it was finished exactly the same. I've got nothing but good things to say about the CN line based on the two I've owned.

mark76
01-25-2013, 05:44 AM
I picked a Carbonext up about a week ago and last night I sharpened and thinned it a bit and I gotta say I'm very impressed. I didn't thin it all that much and it performs pretty good. I have a Western Kono HD and they are almost identical.

Really? Is the Carbonext also as thin as the Kono HD? And do they have a similar profile, i.e. thin behind the edge?

stevenStefano
01-25-2013, 08:09 PM
Really? Is the Carbonext also as thin as the Kono HD? And do they have a similar profile, i.e. thin behind the edge?

Well I believe the Western Konos are a bit thicker than the wa's. I don't have my Carbonext to hand so perhaps Caddilac J could say more about the Carbonext but I think they are fairly close in thinness. I thinned my Kono quite a few times though. I must also mention that all this is from the perspective of a lefty. I don't think too many people have the Western Konos to be perfectly honest

rdpx
02-07-2013, 07:04 PM
Rather than start a new thread, this one seems to be in the ball park of my question.

I have a CarboNext 210 gyuto turning up tomorrow (if I am in for the postman, which is not certain).

I am wondering about this OOTB edge and the need to sharpen the blade. I am a rank beginner when it comes to all this, but based on forum advice the CN seemed the way to go, so I am hoping you can take me just this little bit further.

When I get my knife, what will I need to do to it sharpening wise? At this stage I don't want to worry about thinning anything, and what I am hoping is that the OOTB edge will merely require some sharpening up on my #1000 then #6000 stones, and that I will just have to follow the bevels that are already there on the knife. Is it going to be that straightforward, or am I missing something? I would ideally like to get it right straight off the bat.

Thanks.

stevenStefano
02-07-2013, 07:38 PM
Yeah I think you've got the idea. It's a pretty thin knife so I'd say it shouldn't take that long

ThEoRy
02-07-2013, 07:46 PM
Set a crispy bevel, refine it to about 5k, strop on a medium with a substrate.

rdpx
02-07-2013, 07:48 PM
Yeah I think you've got the idea. It's a pretty thin knife so I'd say it shouldn't take that long

Thanks Steve. By "not long" are we talking 5 minutes, or half an hour? I am going to be very light of touch with this however long it takes.

One other thing - should the angle of the bevel be the same on both sides, or should the left side [ie the food side, if that makes sense] have a slightly steeper angle?

rdpx
02-07-2013, 07:50 PM
Set a crispy bevel, refine it to about 5k, strop on a medium with a substrate.

Now you see all I really understood there was the 5K bit. Also I have no strop; all I have is 1k & 6k stones (and 240 but that won't be going anywhere near it)

What in the world is a "crispy bevel"?

:scratchhead:

chinacats
02-07-2013, 09:09 PM
Now you see all I really understood there was the 5K bit. Also I have no strop; all I have is 1k & 6k stones (and 240 but that won't be going anywhere near it)

What in the world is a "crispy bevel"?

:scratchhead:

I think he just means a nice clean bevel, in other words try not to 'wobble' when you set the angle. The angle set on the first stone will be the one you will need to follow. You can either strop on your stone or some newsprint on a flat surface. I'm sure you will do fine, worst case is you start over until you get it sharp.

keithsaltydog
02-07-2013, 09:16 PM
Maybe he means a toothy edge fr. Med. stone.After reading about these knives so long I bought the 240 Carbonext to show at my class.OOTB it was resistant going thru paper,not sharp.It was an easy fix on the stones.Thinned wt. Bester 1K,polished backbevel & cut in final bevel wt my new Gesshin 4K.Cowhide Strop.Took a sharp edge as good as some of my Carbons.Easy recomm. for Students along wt. Gesshin Uraku,Fujiwara,Suisin Inox,Pro-M.

rdpx
02-07-2013, 09:42 PM
I think he just means a nice clean bevel, in other words try not to 'wobble' when you set the angle. The angle set on the first stone will be the one you will need to follow. You can either strop on your stone or some newsprint on a flat surface. I'm sure you will do fine, worst case is you start over until you get it sharp.


"angle on first stone" i.e. the bevel it arrives with?

I should start off with a #1000 grit though, am I right in believing that?

Can someone quickly explain stropping - and what doing it with newspaper would achieve?

Fingers crossed for doing it perfectly straight off.... I had better take some photos of it before I start so I can remember what it looked like before I hacked it down to a 4" petty knife.

Thanks CC & keith.

keithsaltydog
02-08-2013, 12:02 AM
I do not know your shipping to GB,Dave Martell's DVD on sharpening covers a good basis for freehand sharpening & covers correct strop use too.Japanese knife Imports has you-tube on line sharpening info.

Rarely keep the bevel knife arrives with,thinning behind the edge as Martell calls it is at a more shallow angle than original.Then final bevel also called micro bevel is at higher angle,gives some strength to the edge.

ThEoRy
02-08-2013, 02:52 PM
When I say crispy basically I mean a flat, sharp, clean and true edge with no burr or wire edge. Then from there you can take it up a notch. If you don't have a strop try finding some balsa wood from an art supply store and loading it with some 1 micron poly crystalline diamond spray. To strop just place the edge on the heel at the far end of the strop with the spine towards you. Have the spine just a little bit higher than the sharpening angle you used and pull towards you swiping from heel to toe. Be careful not to roll the edge at the end of the stroke or slip off the sides. Just lift the knife directly up in the air and go back to the starting position and repeat. Do this on both sides until the whole edge can easily shave and push cut paper.

dannynyc
05-23-2013, 11:15 PM
Let me just say this -- out of all the knives I've owned or used over the years, my 240 CN would be one of the last to go.

Might sound weird to many, but this knife just plain does the job...it fits the bill for what I value most: performance. Of course that is not right out of the box, but with some sharpening know-how and tweaking, it can be a beast...don't let the 59 or whatever hrc fool you. Funny that I originally wasn't a fan of the profile, and wished it had a wa-handle, and hoped Koki would change the name, and blah blah blah...but it has became one of my favorites for its simplicity. This is just one man's opinion.

http://i48.tinypic.com/1yn3vq.jpg

Cadillac: can I ask what you did to thin this? It looks pretty dramatic in the photo.

tk59
05-24-2013, 03:16 AM
He probably started on a Beston 500 or similar, then went to 1k until the 500 scratches were gone, then 3-5k then most of the popular 8k+ stones will give you a nice near-mirror finish like that. Naniwa superstones are particularly nice for this, IMO. The main thing is to get most of the coarser scratches out before working the blade on a finer stone. Otherwise, it will take forever.

Cadillac J
05-26-2013, 02:41 PM
Cadillac: can I ask what you did to thin this? It looks pretty dramatic in the photo.

I didn't go full swing on this at one time...I originally just thinned it out about one centimeter behind the edge like below.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2z4wnxv.jpg

But I realized it would be able to handle even more, so I spent some time thinning much higher on the blade while trying to enhance the convexity of the face and blend it right into the edge. The heavy lifting was done with a combo of Shapton Pro 220 and Chosera 600, then just normal progression of Bester 1200--Naniwa SS 5K (and then went to 10K SS to reduce any scratches as much as possible)
http://i43.tinypic.com/2zfki1e.jpg

slowtyper
05-26-2013, 03:35 PM
That looks insane.

I ordered a CN with the "upgraded sharpening" for a fee, because they were all sold out of the "normal" ones at the time. The edge was decent OOTB. Basically they just cut an edge for you.

panda
07-05-2013, 04:27 AM
just sharpened one a few days ago. the edge it had didnt last very long, so thinned behind the edge, then went higher angle with an even higher left side PLUS a microbevel. this is for a line cook who abuses the hell out of knives so retention is first priority. got pretty sharp easy, however, i dont know if it was an isolated incident, but i swear this thing gave off unusually high amount of swarf. my hands were completely covered in black!!

bkdc
07-05-2013, 03:44 PM
+1^. I love my 240 for the same reason above, it's a simple knife. It takes a beating, and keeps on going.

:plus1:

My gf's mother now owns mine, and I miss it dearly. What a great knife at that pricepoint. Frikkin awesome performer that takes a licking and keeps on performing. It remains my #1 recommendation for a starter Japanese knife.

Gravy Power
07-05-2013, 06:30 PM
to those who have owned both, how does the Carbonext stack up to a Fujiwara?

berko
07-05-2013, 06:54 PM
fujiwara fkm?

stevenStefano
07-05-2013, 06:56 PM
I've been using my Carbonext quite a lot recently and I am very happy with it. My main 2 knives at present are it and my Kono HD. I think the Konosuke edge retention is a little better, but other than that I think they are pretty close in terms of performance, especially when you consider there is roughly a $200 difference in price between them. The Carbonext also takes much more of a patina than the HD, especially round where I grip the blade there is a pretty funky pattern going on. One slight regret is that I didn't get a lefty version but all in all I'm more than happy with mine

Gravy Power
07-05-2013, 06:59 PM
fujiwara fkm?

Sorry, forgot to mention. FKH, I have a 240 in that.

Seb
07-05-2013, 10:46 PM
I have a CN in 240 but don't use it much because I don't really like the profile and there is a flaw in the tip (not ground down enough so too thick). What I would really like is a knife with the shape and build quality of a Togiharu Inox but made in CN steel. Now that would be a great beginner's knife.

Btw, I would be amazed if the Wusthof Grand Prix II series is really as hard as 58. Sometimes, retailers post 'puff' info on things like hardness which isn't very reliable.

keithsaltydog
07-06-2013, 12:22 AM
I hear you Seb the Togiharu Inox was my first stainless knife in many yrs.I ended up giving it to my niece she cooks all the time for 3 little ones & her husband.I really liked the thin profile behind the edge,you can feel it drop off toward the cutting edge.Makes it easy to sharpen as well.When I bought it the 240 was 100.00,it has gone up since.

Have rehandled both Fujiwara's FKH & FKM.Also the Carbonext.I sold both Fuji's to cooks.For the price they hold up well in a pro Kitchen.The Carbonext I have been using at home,I can see why this knife has a following,like the steel.

You could always thin the crap out of it like Cadillac did wt. the thinned convex edge he put on it I'll bet it's a great cutter.I did the same thing with a Artiflex tall 240 gyuto AEB-L steel.Thinned halfway up the blade,elbow grease wt. 140 Atoma plate,took it to a 10K Naniwa SS polish.It cuts waaay better than the profile it came with.Now I have to do something wt. the short little handle.