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View Full Version : Dechipping my old Sabatier.... and looking for new knife.



rdpx
01-30-2013, 01:25 PM
With thanks to Benuser and particularly Chinacats, who on my first thread the other day told me that before I worried too much about a new knife, I should pour a little bit of love onto my abused but lovely old Sabatier.

So here is a BEFORE/AFTER photograph of what I did, which I am sure is a fairly amateur job, but I am after all an amateur, and a beginner at that.

http://i.imgur.com/5n7Lts8.jpg

This was done using a #240 whetstone for about 40 minutes or so, followed by #1000 to clean it up a while.

It is a fine old 8" knife - after reading stuff on here I even weighed it at about 200g, and measured the thickness, at about 2mm.

>

Still on my quest to find a new knife to replace it with, I am leaning towards a Carbonext, as all advice seems to be that they are a great deal - I am far from decided though, and price of whetstones needed may yet affect my final choice. Tempted by the Inazuma Wa Gyuto or Hattori HD at slightly higher price, love idea of the Hattori FH but price just too high for me I think as first J knife. Might also have to settle for the Fujiwara FKM.

Regarding stones:

As I already have a #240/#1000 stone [GF's old Global with the #1000 side barely used] should I just buy myself a finer grade stone? Or should I get a finer combi stone? Not sure how fine I need, or what incerements should be. What I have learned is that the #1000 is the rough start option, rather than the "fine finish" I had thought it was !

Three options I have seen are:-

1. 3000/8000 http://www.richmondcookshop.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=340&products_id=4704&osCsid=crmeoh9uod4skla0fdp0lja5s6

2. 3000 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TANAKAYA-Sharpening-Stone-Whetstone-3000-Made-in-Japan-Japanese-Sharpener-/230884753381?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c1cdbfe5

3. the 6000 from here: http://japanesechefsknife.com/WhetStonesForSale.html


One last thing - I was fairly settled on a 210mm knife, but many posts here are making me think I need a 240mm as almost every other post seems to say "i need a longer Gyuto". Do you all think I will regret the shorter knife? :scared4:

Thanks again to CC and B!

Robert

ajhuff
01-30-2013, 01:47 PM
If you are a pro, you always need a longer knife :D but that's because you are looking for speed. Example, cut two potatoes at once rather than one. At home with no rush? Meh. What feels better in your hand? 210 or 240?

If you get another stone, I don't think you need anything more than a 6000 stone.

Not sure of your shipping limitations. The Carbonext is a good knife in my opinion, I have nothing bad to say about it. But... I think the Geshin Ginga is a better knife. My two cents.

-AJ

TB_London
01-30-2013, 02:19 PM
Nice work on the sab

Was a carbonext in the BST already in the UK which is a good deal.
Stones wise you could get a king 4k and/or a strop and compound as the budget option, or for more money could go for a nicer finishing stone and strop.

rdpx
01-30-2013, 04:14 PM
Not sure of your shipping limitations. The Carbonext is a good knife in my opinion, I have nothing bad to say about it. But... I think the Geshin Ginga is a better knife. My two cents.

-AJ

But this knife is $100 more expensive though, right?

I am sure there are better knives than the Ginga as well, if you want to keep upping the cost, no?

rdpx
01-30-2013, 04:15 PM
Nice work on the sab

Was a carbonext in the BST already in the UK which is a good deal.
Stones wise you could get a king 4k and/or a strop and compound as the budget option, or for more money could go for a nicer finishing stone and strop.

i am afraid i don't really understand the terminology - compound, strop etc?

rdpx
01-30-2013, 04:18 PM
If you are a pro, you always need a longer knife :D but that's because you are looking for speed. Example, cut two potatoes at once rather than one. At home with no rush? Meh. What feels better in your hand? 210 or 240?

If you get another stone, I don't think you need anything more than a 6000 stone.

Not sure of your shipping limitations. The Carbonext is a good knife in my opinion, I have nothing bad to say about it. But... I think the Geshin Ginga is a better knife. My two cents.

-AJ


yes its just home use.
I am used to a 8" Sabatier - though I guess an extra inch is not going to feel crazily large. It all adds cost though.
I notice the UX10 rockets in price between 210 and 240 (like an extra $100)

So are you saying that you think I would be fine with the #1000 followed by a #6000 stone?

Lefty
01-30-2013, 04:24 PM
I'd grab the carbonext in the BST, and a 6k and call it done. You can definitely go 1k to 6k (I do all the time).

ajhuff
01-30-2013, 04:35 PM
But this knife is $100 more expensive though, right?

I am sure there are better knives than the Ginga as well, if you want to keep upping the cost, no?

Whoops . You are correct I did not realize they were $100 apart though I would still argue the Ginga is better bang for the buck. By tonight there will be 10 other opinions on that. An in-betweener would be an Ashi,; very very close the the Ginga. The Ginga is just more refined. I agree with Lefty. Get the Carbonext that's up for sale. And absolutely you can jump from 1000 to 6000. Many may even say that is ideal.

-AJ

Blobby
01-30-2013, 06:55 PM
....One last thing - I was fairly settled on a 210mm knife, but many posts here are making me think I need a 240mm as almost every other post seems to say "i need a longer Gyuto". Do you all think I will regret the shorter knife?.....

I don't think so. You've got more control with a smaller knife. I think my 210 is more than big enough. Most of the time I use a 180 usuba (vegetable/salad preparation). Given that you've had the same sized knife for years, so why change? You're obviously happy with the smaller sized knives. Nice job on the chips by the way. With regards sharpening stones, I've only gotten serious about them recently and like yourself had one smallish combination stone. Now I've got a 1200 grit King and a Suehiro 5000. At present I can't see the need to go any finer. The 5000 grit gives a mirror like shine as it is. These bigger knife stones (210X70) are pure luxury.

EdipisReks
01-30-2013, 06:59 PM
I don't think so. You've got more control with a smaller knife.

BS. the knife i find to be most precise is my big Heiji, which is 280mm on the edge. it goes exactly where i want it to, due to a combination of geometry and weight. my little Heiji, which is 250 on the edge, is not as easy to place, though it's a "handier" knife, as the big Heiji is big. my second most precise is my little Robert Herder carbon sheep's foot parer. my many other knives are in between. length doesn't mean much, when it comes to control.

Blobby
01-30-2013, 07:42 PM
Why is it impossible to delete a post?

EdipisReks
01-30-2013, 07:44 PM
Trapper Keepers outsell Porsche 917s, too. i wonder which one goes around the Nurburgring quicker. i don't use a knife at all to peel an apple. welcome to my ignore list.

Blobby
01-30-2013, 07:46 PM
Welcome to my moron list!

Blobby
01-30-2013, 07:47 PM
BS. the knife i find to be most precise is my big Heiji, which is 280mm on the edge. it goes exactly where i want it to, due to a combination of geometry and weight.

BS? Of course it's BS (I'll just say that again to come across like a real DH) because if you want to peel an apple you grab a 300mm Chinese cleaver. Could be BS but I read somewhere that 210 gyutos out sell bigger models by a huge margin. Of course they could, like myself, all be full of BS. Next time I want to tighten that pesky 10mm nut on push my bike I'll stop off at the tractor shed to use that 1 metre long adjustable because bigger tools always give you better precision.

chinacats
01-30-2013, 08:02 PM
As you can tell, size is a very personal issue. Choose what you think you will like, as has been stated, J-knives tend to feel a bit smaller than European knives due to weight and balance.

Good job on the Sab!

Benuser
01-30-2013, 08:13 PM
Great work on the sab! No, you don't need a finer stone with soft European stainless. Finer stones are counterproductive with those.

Buying a used blade as your first Japanese is still a bad idea, I think.
The geometry of Japanese knives is very different from our Western ones. A lot of users tend to ignore it, and notice crazy steering or wedging after a few inadequate sharpenings. That's the moment they decide to sell it.
As you don't know them yet very well, you won't recognize a messed up geometry from the pix, and you haven't yet the knowledge or experience to deal with it.

Vertigo
01-30-2013, 08:34 PM
Why is it impossible to delete a post?

Kaiser Soze.

Lefty
01-31-2013, 08:40 AM
Wow, this thread has gotten heated! I'm not one to start arguments (or am I?), but it's almost good to see a bit of passion on here, and not the usual, "Here's what I got. How much can I hock it for" type of thread/post, or the same crap being regurgitated from one member onto a new member. Anyways....

I'm a big fan of the "small knives", owning several in the 180 range, and I still love my 210 gyuto. It's almost 210 suji height, and I see why they were the hot size for a while there. A 210 will do everything you need in a home kitchen, but you'll occasionally notice you wish you had some extra length. In my experience, this is more for large, stubborn items, such as squash and occasionally huge sweet potatoes, etc. with that being said, as it stands, I could happily live with just my 210 gyuto and a couple parers (if I didn't have a knife addiction).

Until recently, I was convinced that the only 240 that felt right in my hand was my Carter suji, which I often use "as a gyuto". The tip always felt almost unusable on the 240s I tried before, with the exception of another Misono I own. However, even that didn't feel as natural as my 210 and multiple petty knives. But, what made me see the light was a combination of a 225 Mike Davis gyuto, and a Masamoto KS I traded for on a whim. Both of these knives felt/feel "right" to me. The tip is where I want it, and they quite literally feel/felt like much smaller knives (in hand), but in use, they haven't didn't leave me looking for a bit more edge length. I was amazed to learn my 240 KS is in fact a 250mm blade. It still feels small to me, but in a good way. What I'm getting at is, these knives have that perfect balance of geometry and weight distribution that I LIKE, PERSONALLY.

I think a 210 has a better chance of feeling right in the hand, and that's why many people start with them, or favor them, until they inevitably go looking for an excuse to buy a new knife and realize that a longer knife can feel just as good (and sometimes better). Again, this isn't always the case. I've used 240s that have the feel of an axe, in hand, and they were quickly sent on to someone else. Hopefully someone who likes a knife that feels the way they do.

If I had to choose one gyuto, I guess I'd go with a 240, but only one that felt right. With that being said, I'd put my 210 in the "210 suji category", just to get around the limitations I set upon myself. In other words, a huge part of this whole hobby is finding a new knife and deciding if it's the one for you. If not, sell it or keep it for different tasks and try a new one.

ajhuff
01-31-2013, 10:49 AM
I like 270 myself. Most of the guys I work with coming out of school are terrified of my 270s, especially the girls. I think one of the reasons is weight. When I let them borrow one they quickly see the my 270 Suisin INOX honyaki is much lighter then their 8" Mercer. They are really shocked. But still scared and want a smaller knife. I should pull out my 300mm Ashi for them!

All in all in depends on what feels right in your hand, there is no "right" length.

-AJ

rdpx
01-31-2013, 10:56 AM
I like 270 myself. Most of the guys I work with coming out of school are terrified of my 270s, especially the girls. I think one of the reasons is weight. When I let them borrow one they quickly see the my 270 Suisin INOX honyaki is much lighter then their 8" Mercer. They are really shocked. But still scared and want a smaller knife. I should pull out my 300mm Ashi for them!

All in all in depends on what feels right in your hand, there is no "right" length.

-AJ


Another thing I have to bear in mind is that my girlfriend will probably end up using whatever I buy. She could probably cope with a 240mm, but any larger I think might freak her out.

I might go have a look in one of the Japanese Knife Company shops in London and see what difference feels like.

Currently wondering whether I want to up the budget and consider following alongside a Carbonext...:

1. Hattori HD
2. TJ Aogami Super
3. Masamoto VG

labor of love
01-31-2013, 01:39 PM
i would probably only use 270mms if it wasnt for the weight of some of them. i usually like my gyutos to weigh in the 190-250 grams. some 270mms get close to 300grams, which i find to be too heavy for my taste.

labor of love
01-31-2013, 01:49 PM
whats TJ augami super?

chinacats
01-31-2013, 01:50 PM
Another thing I have to bear in mind is that my girlfriend will probably end up using whatever I buy. She could probably cope with a 240mm, but any larger I think might freak her out.

I might go have a look in one of the Japanese Knife Company shops in London and see what difference feels like.


I think this makes perfect sense! After a few uses, most will feel smaller in hand than they do initially, but you will be able to shop with more confidence.

rdpx
01-31-2013, 01:52 PM
whats TJ augami super?

Hiromoto.

On the JCK site they are called "Tenmi Jyuraku Aogami Super Series"

TB_London
01-31-2013, 03:09 PM
Of those three I'd go for the Hiromoto.
Whereabouts in the UK are you?

rdpx
01-31-2013, 04:32 PM
Of those three I'd go for the Hiromoto.
Whereabouts in the UK are you?

Hi TB.

Well at the moment it is looking like a final round between the Hiromoto and the Carbonext. I kind of have a decision in my mind, then I read some comments on a thread or other and the decision changes.... I think the bottom line is that whatever I get is going to be very nice compared to what I have been used to, even though I am getting the impression that I may have a better than average euro knife in my old SS Sabatier.

I am in London. Specifically, N1.

rdpx
01-31-2013, 05:29 PM
UPDATE:

I just showed a picture of a nicely edge patinated Hiro AS to my partner, and she said "it's horrible it looks dirty"

So I guess the pendulum has sung back to the Carbonext, for the moment.

FWIW, this is the picture, that a user was selling on a different forum a few years back. I think it is rather beautiful....

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7011/82439490np1.jpg

franzb69
01-31-2013, 10:55 PM
patina aint dirty to me. it's purty to me as well. it's just a matter of knowing what it is and taste. anyone who knows knives knows that it's not dirty. i always just smirk at folks that look at my carbons and call them cruddy ugly things.

i remember my chef instructor scolding me on my carbon shears that i used to cut fish fins and guess what? it disappeared the same day i used it. someone knew about my shears being awesome and it magically went away. I wonder why. =D

Johnny.B.Good
01-31-2013, 11:00 PM
I just showed a picture of a nicely edge patinated Hiro AS to my partner, and she said "it's horrible it looks dirty"

Better have her check out this thread: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/299-My-favorite-color-is-BLUE!-A-patina-thread?highlight=blue+patina

Patina isn't for everyone, and if looks are a deal breaker, you might have to turn your attention to stainless steel options.

Benuser
01-31-2013, 11:40 PM
Pictures of the Hiromoto often show etched patina: much darker than with normal use. AS is not very reactive. Would the patina be a problem: baking soda will stabilize the process and the core will turn mat light grey - about as the entire Carbonext, by the way.

Benuser
01-31-2013, 11:49 PM
Here a more normal life pic of a Hiromoto former santoku in the middle, together with a Misono Swedish and a Herder K2.
You may recognize a little difference between core and clad by colour and finish.

http://postimage.org/image/akv9217kv/

I'm sure some people will call the carbons dirty, but certainly not the Hiromoto.

Yoni Lang
02-01-2013, 12:57 AM
Here a more normal life pic of a Hiromoto former santoku in the middle, together with a Misono Swedish and a Herder K2.
You may recognize a little difference between core and clad by colour and finish.

http://postimage.org/image/akv9217kv/

I'm sure some people will call the carbons dirty, but certainly not the Hiromoto.

considering getting a hiromoto myself.. going between that and a sugimoto gyuto.. never used the hiro though.. any idea on edge retention?

Benuser
02-01-2013, 01:46 AM
Edge retention of the AS core steel is remarkable.

rdpx
02-01-2013, 08:55 AM
Pictures of the Hiromoto often show etched patina: much darker than with normal use. AS is not very reactive. Would the patina be a problem: baking soda will stabilize the process and the core will turn mat light grey - about as the entire Carbonext, by the way.


aha well that is interesting to know. I have seen some of the custom thinned and etched AS' that David Martell has done, but didn;t realise that the one I posted a picture of might have had the same treatment. Is it difficult to do it, or can it be done at home without too much in the way of specialised stuff? I love the way it looks. Have missed Friday post in Japan now so will wait until next week anyhow.

I emailed Koki about whetstones and he told me that

a) #1000 whetstone would be enough
b) I should not be using a whetstone to thin the knife, as this could scratch the face

Any suggestions as to how one would go about thinning a knife, if not by using a stone?

R

Von blewitt
02-01-2013, 09:03 AM
aha well that is interesting to know. I have seen some of the custom thinned and etched AS' that David Martell has done, but didn;t realise that the one I posted a picture of might have had the same treatment. Is it difficult to do it, or can it be done at home without too much in the way of specialised stuff? I love the way it looks. Have missed Friday post in Japan now so will wait until next week anyhow.

I emailed Koki about whetstones and he told me that

a) #1000 whetstone would be enough
b) I should not be using a whetstone to thin the knife, as this could scratch the face

Any suggestions as to how one would go about thinning a knife, if not by using a stone?

R

You will scratch the blade face when you thin, then you remove the scratches, wet dry sand paper/ micro mesh pads do the trick.

rdpx
02-01-2013, 09:17 AM
what started as looking for a new kitchen knife seems somehow to be turning into an expensive hobby.

I wonder if I wouldn't just be extremely happy with a Fujiwara FKM for $85, use just my #1000 whetstone on it, and save $170!

Benuser
02-01-2013, 09:53 AM
Well, Koki is a little bit cautious. So he won't advice in any way that may be returned against him.
When one has to deal with a novice it's wise to suggest a 1k only. Not too coarse to cause harm, and not too fine to be counterproductive into inexperimented hands. I would suggest one more stone in the 3k-5k range. My own progression with the Hiromoto is Chosera 400-800-2k-5k.
Thinning: any sharpening at a more acute angle than that of the very edge is thinning behind the edge, because you do remove some material without touching the edge. Given a sharpening angle, if you lift the spine: microbevel. You lower the spine: thinning.
Koki had probably vast thinning operations in mind where the blade is put flat on the stone and pressure applied where you want steel to get abraded. Don't try that with a 1k stone, and certainly not with the soft stainless clad which is quite abrasion resistant. Without removing any substantial amount of steel, you will just scratch the face, I agree.
I would add that the soft clad gets scratched easily because of its softness, but these scratches can got removed just as easy as well, thanks to the same softness.
Etching could be fun but won't last forever. As far as I know quite aggressive stuff is involved. It will dull the edge. With raw meat, mustard or hot vinegar you may create a lighter bluish patina. Clean the very edge immediately, and let the stuff on the remaining core steel for some time. Rinse with the hottest water you can get, and see the colour change taking place. Tell people the patina has an antiseptic function.

rdpx
02-01-2013, 11:53 AM
I have just seen this which seems like an out of the ordinary bargain for UK! Equates to about US$68 for a combi #1000/#4000 stone.

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/knives/knife-sharpening-tools/stones---japanese-waterstones/JP1413/japanese-combination-waterstone---1000_6000

Also I have just been invited to dinner at a friend's house and she tells me they bought a J knife last week and that it is amazing. No idea what it is yet...

chinacats
02-01-2013, 11:58 AM
I have just seen this which seems like an out of the ordinary bargain for UK! Equates to about US$68 for a combi #1000/#4000 stone.

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/knives/knife-sharpening-tools/stones---japanese-waterstones/JP1413/japanese-combination-waterstone---1000_6000

Also I have just been invited to dinner at a friend's house and she tells me they bought a J knife last week and that it is amazing. No idea what it is yet...

King 1k/6k, price is about right...stone will be a bit smaller than some, but supposedly what Murray Carter uses when not using cinder block :)

Many here have used that stone...

rdpx
02-01-2013, 12:41 PM
Thanks CC -
I have since found this site, which seems like it knows what it is selling.

http://www.edenwebshops.co.uk/en/ct/whetstones-sharpening-stones.htm


I don't really know what I am buying though!

I have a combi with v destroyed #240 side and practicaly untouched #1000 side -
I clearly need to get something to flatten out the #240 side, and was wondering if I get a diamond thing, does it need to be the same size (or larger) than the stone being flattened?

stevenStefano
02-01-2013, 12:58 PM
For flattening I'd get an Atoma 140 from Maxim

rdpx
02-01-2013, 01:09 PM
For flattening I'd get an Atoma 140 from Maxim

Would love to but I am in the UK, and also I am a cheapskate.:hungry:

[NB. still doesn't answer question as to whether it needs to be same size or larger than the stone.]

chinacats
02-01-2013, 01:21 PM
If you are a cheapskate, you should flatten with drywall screen or sandpaper on glass or one of the less expensive flatteners like Norton. I believe Korin also has something fairly inexpensive similar to the Norton.

Larger makes it easier.

stevenStefano
02-01-2013, 01:54 PM
Yeah I know you're in the UK but shipping from Denmark is pretty reasonable. If it's the same size as the stone it's fine

Justin0505
02-01-2013, 03:06 PM
Get the CN.
It's a benchmark knife. For many it's THE benchmark knife. I have a Kikuichi TKC which is basically just a brother from a different mother.

We just had a meetup and one of the big revelations was just how damn good a couple of "tuned up" (re-handled ed and re-finished) TKC's stood up to knives costing as much as 10X more.

It's a knife that will give you a good intro to j-knives right out of the box, but will grow with you as you learn to thin behind the edge and slowly change grind and profile to your ideal.

Between that and your sab, you will have 2 of the most iconic and influential blade shapes in recent kitchen knife history.

As for the length, I usually follow the philosophy of "try something different than I already have."

Oh yeah, great work on the chip removal, but the width of the primary edge bevel makes me think that theres still quite a bit of steel behind the edge and you coulld up performance by thinning it out.

As for the gf, making purchases based on someone that knows less than you is always a bad idea. Help her to learn/appreciate what she's looking at before you ask her opinion.... And if she still thinks patina looks dirty, then get her a nice, clean, pos cheap stainless knife for the local big-box. Let her try cutting with that for awhile then let her dry your "dirty" carbon.

Blobby
02-01-2013, 05:57 PM
.............I have a combi with v destroyed #240 side and practicaly untouched #1000 side -
I clearly need to get something to flatten out the #240 side, and was wondering if I get a diamond thing, does it need to be the same size (or larger) than the stone being flattened?

Get a sheet of coarse grit (P80) wet/dry sand paper. Find a flat work surface. The bench top next to the sink is a good spot. Put a little bit of water down for the sheet to lay on (you can use half a sheet if space is lilmited), soak the stone and flatten away. Works an absolute treat and costs you absolutely bugger all. Depending on the grit of the stone I found I can use half a sheet at least five times.

Personally I'd leave the 240 side alone and start using the 1000 grit side of your stone. Generally the lower grits are used for the fast removal of material (reshaping the profile, thinning the blade etc) rather than for creating the finished edge. The 1000 grit will leave a really nice bitey edge on your knife and I (and many others here from what I've read) generally don't go any further on your average softer stainless kitchen knife blade. You can stop there with a J knife too. I wouldn't go out and buy a new stone if I were in your shoes. Mind you, the bigger Japanese whet stones (210X65mm) are a lot easier to use. And there's certainly no need for a diamond plate of any size or description for flattening purposes. Unless of course you like spending money and it's turning in to a hobby.

And I'd agree with your friend in saying that J knives are amazing. I've got a couple of entry level ones and they really are from a different planet when it comes to sharpness and edge retention. I find I don't have to sharpen them anywhere near as often as my other knives.

rdpx
02-01-2013, 08:15 PM
Get a sheet of coarse grit (P80) wet/dry sand paper. Find a flat work surface. The bench top next to the sink is a good spot. Put a little bit of water down for the sheet to lay on (you can use half a sheet if space is lilmited), soak the stone and flatten away. Works an absolute treat and costs you absolutely bugger all. Depending on the grit of the stone I found I can use half a sheet at least five times.

Personally I'd leave the 240 side alone and start using the 1000 grit side of your stone. Generally the lower grits are used for the fast removal of material (reshaping the profile, thinning the blade etc) rather than for creating the finished edge. The 1000 grit will leave a really nice bitey edge on your knife and I (and many others here from what I've read) generally don't go any further on your average softer stainless kitchen knife blade. You can stop there with a J knife too. I wouldn't go out and buy a new stone if I were in your shoes. Mind you, the bigger Japanese whet stones (210X65mm) are a lot easier to use. And there's certainly no need for a diamond plate of any size or description for flattening purposes. Unless of course you like spending money and it's turning in to a hobby.

And I'd agree with your friend in saying that J knives are amazing. I've got a couple of entry level ones and they really are from a different planet when it comes to sharpness and edge retention. I find I don't have to sharpen them anywhere near as often as my other knives.


Ok this is great advice thank you. I will go buy some wet/dry sandpaper tomorrow. The only reason the #240 side is ground down so badly is that I had used it in the past before I knew anything about what I was doing. I assumed that it was the first and main one to use because that is what I had, and it is a Global, and I had assumed that they knew what they were doing... I might post a photo of it soon in a new thread so you can all laugh at me, and see how I deal with flattening it.







Get the CN.
It's a benchmark knife. For many it's THE benchmark knife. I have a Kikuichi TKC which is basically just a brother from a different mother.

We just had a meetup and one of the big revelations was just how damn good a couple of "tuned up" (re-handled ed and re-finished) TKC's stood up to knives costing as much as 10X more.

It's a knife that will give you a good intro to j-knives right out of the box, but will grow with you as you learn to thin behind the edge and slowly change grind and profile to your ideal.

Between that and your sab, you will have 2 of the most iconic and influential blade shapes in recent kitchen knife history.

As for the length, I usually follow the philosophy of "try something different than I already have."

Oh yeah, great work on the chip removal, but the width of the primary edge bevel makes me think that theres still quite a bit of steel behind the edge and you coulld up performance by thinning it out.

As for the gf, making purchases based on someone that knows less than you is always a bad idea. Help her to learn/appreciate what she's looking at before you ask her opinion.... And if she still thinks patina looks dirty, then get her a nice, clean, pos cheap stainless knife for the local big-box. Let her try cutting with that for awhile then let her dry your "dirty" carbon.

Your advice about buying the CN is good, thank you - then you mess it up by saying "ignore the GF" as she was objecting to the Hiromoto!!! I also am fairly sure that she will love the AS even with the "dirty" edge, because she is not dumb and it is a beautiful thing.

I think honestly I will love both of them. Someone else commented "get both", and I can see where they are coming from.

I like what you say about length as well - my Sab is 210 or so, so yes a 240 is probably the way forward..... you are right about me not having thinned it - it was all about removing the chip and I knew nothing about what I was doing. It still cuts well though even in state I left it. I love what I am learning here - I may thin it down and then polish it up at some point, maybe even put a new handle on it if I get inspired to do so, as it is all dishwasher cracked, but it was my first proper kitchen knife and I think I lucked out and somehow bought something that is actually half decent and worth putting a bit of love into, for itself as well as for the nostalgia it entails.


Interesting thing about my friend's J knife - it is a petty and they paid over 100 for it (I think 119). As far as I can tell it is a JCK GEKKO, which they sell for $75 (51 delivered) and it is not even sharp. They were going on about how sharp it was, but it is OOTB sharp and wouldn't even cut paper. They had been told to use a water wheel sharpener on it and that they should bring it back to the shop for resharpening every 4 months for 6 a go. Amazing. Really not impressed with them at all. I thought that the reason UK knives were overpriced was to do with the 27% import tax, but that is 100% over what JCK want, and on top of that they have spun them crap about sharpening which is nonsense. Compared to the old Sab Judge knives they have it was indeed quite sharp, but a little bit of love ob their old cheap knives would have saved them a lot.

They were talking about buying a Gyuto, I said to talk to me before they did that!!!

rdpx
02-01-2013, 08:20 PM
Yeah I know you're in the UK but shipping from Denmark is pretty reasonable. If it's the same size as the stone it's fine

Not postage steven, its the $100!!! I came here for advice on a knife that I was thinking might cost me $100, now the knife has gone up to $180 and the stones are $80 on top, and spending $100 to flatten out a stone that is too coarse anyway is just pushing me into crazy speak, I mean a man has to be able to afford to buy some beer now and then, or at the very least some ingredients to chop, right?
:bliss:

stevenStefano
02-01-2013, 08:25 PM
Not postage steven, its the $100!!! I came here for advice on a knife that I was thinking might cost me $100, now the knife has gone up to $180 and the stones are $80 on top, and spending $100 to flatten out a stone that is too coarse anyway is just pushing me into crazy speak, I mean a man has to be able to afford to buy some beer now and then, or at the very least some ingredients to chop, right?
:bliss:

Yeah I definitely see where you're coming from. It took me a long time to get round to buying an Atoma, I got mine after buying loads of knives. It makes things a lot easier though you can use other methods

rdpx
02-01-2013, 08:33 PM
Yeah I definitely see where you're coming from. It took me a long time to get round to buying an Atoma, I got mine after buying loads of knives. It makes things a lot easier though you can use other methods

I get this - If I had loads of knives it would be a no brainer. I think this is a hobby I will evolve with! For now, its baby steps.

Blobby
02-01-2013, 10:00 PM
I get this - If I had loads of knives it would be a no brainer. I think this is a hobby I will evolve with! For now, its baby steps.

Very sensible. By the way here's a youtuber of wet/dry stone flattening. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOt7hftUU-Q

rdpx
02-01-2013, 10:21 PM
Very sensible. By the way here's a youtuber of wet/dry stone flattening.


Thanks Bobby that's good to see.

I think it only fair that I show you guys what I have done to my old stone in my ignorance (well it is my GF's, that she was sold when she bought some Global knives years ago, I was only person ever to use them, and they did indeed get my knives pretty sharp, but I think in comparison to how they should be, they are probably not that great! I find it amazing that Global sell/sold these stones with brand new knives - a #240 and a #1000, when from what I have learnt here the #240 is a pretty extreme grit size)

Anyway - here you see what I have, gonna take a fair bit of flattening I think - at least on the #240 side. The #1000 is not flat, but its not so bad.....

Any recommendations of what grit w/d paper I need for these? Nice to have a project for the weekend, eh?

http://i.imgur.com/rUeh4pI.jpg

Pensacola Tiger
02-01-2013, 10:30 PM
Do the major work on a concrete sidewalk or patio, then finish on wet/dry. 220 is what I used before I got my Atoma 140.

Rick

rdpx
02-01-2013, 10:33 PM
I must say I am a bit concerned that I am going to try and razor sharp polish my beautiful Gransfors Bruks axe once I am done honing up all my knives!

Hopefully I will stop myself.

(not my photo, clearly, but same axe..... this was product of my last foray into internet research for sharp bits of steel!)

http://www.canadianoutdoorequipment.com/store/images/P/Small-Forest-Axe-(2).png

rdpx
02-01-2013, 10:37 PM
Do the major work on a concrete sidewalk or patio, then finish on wet/dry. 220 is what I used before I got my Atoma 140.

Rick

Thanks Rick, will do it tomorrow.

SpikeC
02-02-2013, 02:39 PM
Sharpen up that axe and you might be surprised at what it can do!

rdpx
02-02-2013, 04:56 PM
Well my spare paving stone and the wet dry/sandpaper worked a treat. I had a wee go at the battered old Sab with the 220 and 400 paper, which started polishing up a treat.
Wondering how best to do running repair on the handle cracks and recessed rivets now - am I right in thinking filling up with superglue is a way to go? I have some normal woodglue as well. Is it worth putting teak oil on the handle as well, as I have some knocking about I think? Anything to spruce it up a little. Any suggestions welcome.

Does anyone have a link to a blade polishing tutorial anywhere?

Thanks for all the tips so far, you guys are a goldmine.

http://i.imgur.com/6O9ic5M.jpg



http://i.imgur.com/WYimVBc.jpg

rdpx
02-02-2013, 04:59 PM
Sharpen up that axe and you might be surprised at what it can do!

I'm going to use it as a deba.

Blobby
02-02-2013, 06:39 PM
............Does anyone have a link to a blade polishing tutorial anywhere?..........

You've got it bad haven't you! Got a feeling there could be a magnetic strip worth of expensive knives and half a dozen stones entering your life shortly. Forget about all this rubbish that people tell you about eating and drinking.

chinacats
02-02-2013, 06:59 PM
there are a few threads here about polishing the blade, this (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/6823-Removing-thinning-scratches) is one...

rdpx
02-02-2013, 07:42 PM
Thanks again CC. I feel its good to practise on my old sab so I am learning and at the same time making it nice again...

Blobby - I am almost decided on just limiting it to getting a Carbonext 240mm at the moment. Almost. The more you read forums the more you see people saying how good that knife is.

But I am also wondering about why I would want to get an FKM 160mm Deba. I suppose I would have to start eating more fish to justify it, which my gf would probably be happy about. Also wonder if it would be heavy enough to joint chickens with, but I think the answer is probably not.

On top of that I was thinking of getting a paring knife or a petty, god only knows why, but there don't seem to be any "cheap" parings available on JCK so common sense has prevailed there and I believe I will just go spend 5 on this pretty little Victorinox (http://www.nisbets.co.uk/Victorinox-Bubinga-Wood-Handle-Plain-Parer/C623/ProductDetail.raction), and save the money for the serious end.

:knife:

Blobby
02-02-2013, 08:04 PM
Thanks again CC. I feel its good to practise on my old sab so I am learning and at the same time making it nice again...

Blobby - I am almost decided on just limiting it to getting a Carbonext 240mm at the moment. Almost. The more you read forums the more you see people saying how good that knife is.

But I am also wondering about why I would want to get an FKM 160mm Deba. I suppose I would have to start eating more fish to justify it, which my gf would probably be happy about. Also wonder if it would be heavy enough to joint chickens with, but I think the answer is probably not.

On top of that I was thinking of getting a paring knife or a petty, god only knows why, but there don't seem to be any "cheap" parings available on JCK so common sense has prevailed there and I believe I will just go spend 5 on this pretty little Victorinox (http://www.nisbets.co.uk/Victorinox-Bubinga-Wood-Handle-Plain-Parer/C623/ProductDetail.raction), and save the money for the serious end.

:knife:

Yeah I like the look of debas too but not sure how much use it would be outside of either the heavy stuff like attacking chickens or finer fish filleting duties. Neither of which I do too much of. Have you considered a nakiri or a usuba (provided both of you are left/right handed) for all the finer vegetable work? You've already got a really nice old chefs knife. I know it's not a J knife but still.... Seems to me that if you get a gyuto what is poor ol' Sab gunna do?

rdpx
02-02-2013, 08:21 PM
Yeah I like the look of debas too but not sure how much use it would be outside of either the heavy stuff like attacking chickens or finer fish filleting duties. Neither of which I do too much of. Have you considered a nakiri or a usuba (provided both of you are left/right handed) for all the finer vegetable work? You've already got a really nice old chefs knife. I know it's not a J knife but still.... Seems to me that if you get a gyuto what is poor ol' Sab gunna do?

Deba would be precisely for fish and taking apart ducks and chickens....

Hadn't considered nakiri or usuba - I would imagine I would use gyuto instead. Maybe forget deba and just let the sab take a battering on the poultry? You gonna make me sad and decide to just keep using the sab and not bother with a gyuto if you carry on!

:scratchhead:

rdpx
02-02-2013, 08:39 PM
I guess I could just get THIS ONE (http://www.hartsofstur.com/acatalog/Stellar-Samurai-6.5----165mm-Deba-Knife-SS03.html), and see if I actually use it. Seems like sacrilege though after reading this site for the past week or so.

Pensacola Tiger
02-02-2013, 08:52 PM
I guess I could just get THIS ONE (http://www.hartsofstur.com/acatalog/Stellar-Samurai-6.5----165mm-Deba-Knife-SS03.html), and see if I actually use it. Seems like sacrilege though after reading this site for the past week or so.

If that is a single-bevel deba, and you can't tell from the pic on the website, the copywriter has some serious learning to do about traditional Japanese knives. A deba is NOT "a chopping knife and ... heavy enough to crack crab shell and tenderise meat." It is designed to do one thing, and that is to filet fish. Yes, the heel can be sharpened at an obtuse angle to allow you to cut off a fish head, but it is, in no sense, a "chopping knife". And there are much better knives for chicken, like a honesuki or garasuki.

Rick

Blobby
02-02-2013, 09:27 PM
Deba would be precisely for fish and taking apart ducks and chickens....

Hadn't considered nakiri or usuba - I would imagine I would use gyuto instead. Maybe forget deba and just let the sab take a battering on the poultry? You gonna make me sad and decide to just keep using the sab and not bother with a gyuto if you carry on!

:scratchhead:

Don't know about you but I only really use a couple (or three) knives. When I got my usuba it replaced the chef's knife/gyuto only for finer veggie work which I find takes up most of the prep work. If you're going to expand your knife quiver you might as well buy one for a specific duty rather than getting one that basically will perform the same function as the very nice one you've got already.

@pensecola tiger: After seeing the single bevel vids that were posted recently I found it quite strange that a deba would also be used for smashing chickens up. Thanks for clearing that up.....officially.

rdpx
02-02-2013, 09:53 PM
If that is a single-bevel deba, and you can't tell from the pic on the website, the copywriter has some serious learning to do about traditional Japanese knives. A deba is NOT "a chopping knife and ... heavy enough to crack crab shell and tenderise meat." It is designed to do one thing, and that is to filet fish. Yes, the heel can be sharpened at an obtuse angle to allow you to cut off a fish head, but it is, in no sense, a "chopping knife". And there are much better knives for chicken, like a honesuki or garasuki.

Rick

Well they say that it is single bevel on a different page. But really its not a serious knife shop and for 15 delivered you can't really complain about much, nor be too precious about cracking it up on a few chicken bones :)

I will have a look at the other knives you mention. Thing is though I am a home cook only, and its mainly just for two with the odd dinner for 6 friends or so maybe once a month, so I can't really justify lots of expensive knives.... which is why I am on here to make sure that the ONE that I do buy is going to give me pleasure (most likely Carbonext gyuto, possibly Hiro AS, and maybe an FKM deba, unless I decide to be sensible about it)

I am tempted to get it anyway and also get a boning knife they have on clearance at 5 down from 40, just because it is so cheap. I know its bad of me to think it, but I figure its a good way of finding out if I am going to like/use a shape of knife. If I do I can get a proper one down the track.

rdpx
02-02-2013, 10:00 PM
Don't know about you but I only really use a couple (or three) knives. When I got my usuba it replaced the chef's knife/gyuto only for finer veggie work which I find takes up most of the prep work. If you're going to expand your knife quiver you might as well buy one for a specific duty rather than getting one that basically will perform the same function as the very nice one you've got already.

Do you mean replacing the Sab with a Gyuto seems like wrong move? I must admit that the more I sharpen and polish it the more I am wondering if it really needs replacing. Thing is though that it is the knife I use for almost everything, so if I am going to buy a J knife it has to be a gyuto really. The Sab will probably get relegated to the bone crushing stuff (god knows I have been using it for that already!) The time I have spent looking at these knives blinds me to whether I really NEED it though. I probably don't, truth be told. If it helps, I am thinking of getting a 240 Gyuto, and the Sab is about 210 :)

Blobby
02-02-2013, 10:16 PM
I guess you can always sell the Sab to help fund it (just winding you up!).

rdpx
02-02-2013, 10:23 PM
I guess you can always sell the Sab to help fund it (just winding you up!).

Make me an offer

;)

rdpx
02-02-2013, 11:26 PM
I was just having a look on the Japanese Knife Company site, as I will be nearby this week and am going to go compare 210 and 240mm gyutos....

I see they are selling a knife "KC101" 240mm Gyuto for just over equivalent of US$450, which as far as I can tell is a Kanetsune, on sale (though not common it seems) in the US for just under US$200. I am stunned.

TB_London
02-03-2013, 07:54 AM
Yeah the London shop is outrageous, the prices are extortionate and when I went the staff barely new anything, though admittedly the owner wasn't there. If you ask they used to let you try the knives too. If I were still living in London you'd be welcome to come round, if you're ever Cardiff way let me know.
If you go to the Japan Centre in Piccadilly, at the back they have King sharpening stones for reasonable prices, and no postage, think its 30 ish for a 1k/6k.

Yoni Lang
02-03-2013, 02:07 PM
:plus1:
Do the major work on a concrete sidewalk or patio, then finish on wet/dry. 220 is what I used before I got my Atoma 140.

Rick

rdpx
02-03-2013, 06:43 PM
Yeah the London shop is outrageous, the prices are extortionate and when I went the staff barely new anything, though admittedly the owner wasn't there. If you ask they used to let you try the knives too. If I were still living in London you'd be welcome to come round, if you're ever Cardiff way let me know.
If you go to the Japan Centre in Piccadilly, at the back they have King sharpening stones for reasonable prices, and no postage, think its 30 ish for a 1k/6k.

I do pass by Cardiff every now and then on the way to Pembrokeshire, but usually on a train these days.... thanks for the offer will let you know if I am ever nearby.

Rearding JKCompany....

I went in today to one of the central London shops.

I was wondering whether to write a new thread about it as I took down prices etc. for a few knives that they don't show on the website (presumably because they would be easy to google and compare?)

There was a couple in there when I arrived who bought a whetstone that I am pretty sure was one of THIS (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Japanese-Sharpening-Whetstone-Damascus-Graining/dp/B0049ONT5Q)range, and they paid 49.95 for it.

rdpx
02-04-2013, 09:02 PM
I am sure you are all dying to know, so I have just ordered a JCK Original KAGAYAKI CarboNext Series KC-5 Gyuto 210mm.

I shall go to sleep knowing it is 11am in Japan, and dream of Koki gift-wrapping my new knife and dropping it in at the Seki post office.

:knife:

scott6452
02-04-2013, 09:07 PM
Congrats! The good news is that if you are lucky, it could be with you by Friday! (if i remember correctly about postage times!)