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View Full Version : Masamoto HC vs Sweden Series



rdm_magic
02-09-2013, 07:51 PM
I'm in the market for a new 240mm gyuto, after selling my 210mm. Budget is around 200$. Thinking I want a carbon yo handle, because thats what I'm familiar with, but I'm open to wa handles too.
At the moment I've narrowed it down to either a Masamoto HC or a Misono dragon. Again, if there are 'better' options in this price range I'm open to them. I am in the UK though, so something from Koki is best due to his shipping. I'm not sure what Jons like on international shipping, but I can't really justify the 40$+ that some sites charge for postage.

I don't want anything too thin (currently using a Sabatier 10 inch nogent and I'm happy with the thickness of that, no fatter but a little thinner is okay), I'm a leftie too.

Out of the two that I'm considering, which is subjectively better, and what are the advantages/dis of each? Are there any other options that I should give serious consideration to?

K-Fed
02-09-2013, 07:55 PM
The masahiro virgin carbon gyuto is a nice blade for the money as well.

Chefdog
02-09-2013, 09:39 PM
You can call and ask Jon what shipping would be to the uk. I just bought a Suien 240 gyuto from him and am very happy with it. Thin enough to cut well, but feels sturdy enough to handle whatever you'd throw at it. Not sure what the steel is (I've read speculation it's V2), but it's very unreactive so far and had a very useable profile, mostly flat with just enough curve to be versatile. It's worth a look, especially since its $70 less than the HC and $40 less than the Misono.

Canadian
02-09-2013, 09:57 PM
I owned the HC and I can say from first hand experience that the steel is good, but so is the steel in the Sweden and I prefer the profile of the Sweden.

Canadian
02-09-2013, 09:59 PM
Should also add that the HC fit and finish on the handle was mediocre but I've heard only good things about misono f&f.

Benuser
02-09-2013, 11:06 PM
A few years ago I did some research about the same question and found that with the Masamoto the fluctuations in F&F were huge. You really had to pick out a good one and even than, accept some minor issues. To me that was unacceptable with a knife at that price level. I'm not sure if Masamoto have changed QC since.
The Swedish Carbon is strongly right biased. The 70/30 statement by Koki is far too optimistic from your point of view. The right face is strongly convexed, much more than with a Carbonext. I guess with putting a neutral edge on the CN and thinning the left side a little you were fine with it. This is not the case with the Swedish. The convexity is much more pronounced. Expect a vast operation with uncertain results.
If you've owned a Carbonext you should know how it performs and can easily be changed into a leftie. Why not just ordering a 240 Carbonext??

Chefdog
02-09-2013, 11:49 PM
Sorry, I missed the fact that you're a lefty until Benuser mentioned it. The Suien I recommended above is very strongly righty biased as well.

franzb69
02-10-2013, 12:37 AM
i too am interested in the misono swedish steel gyuto, would love to try a dragon. also a lefty. but oh well.

rdm_magic
02-10-2013, 08:03 AM
A few years ago I did some research about the same question and found that with the Masamoto the fluctuations in F&F were huge. You really had to pick out a good one and even than, accept some minor issues. To me that was unacceptable with a knife at that price level. I'm not sure if Masamoto have changed QC since.
The Swedish Carbon is strongly right biased. The 70/30 statement by Koki is far too optimistic from your point of view. The right face is strongly convexed, much more than with a Carbonext. I guess with putting a neutral edge on the CN and thinning the left side a little you were fine with it. This is not the case with the Swedish. The convexity is much more pronounced. Expect a vast operation with uncertain results.
If you've owned a Carbonext you should know how it performs and can easily be changed into a leftie. Why not just ordering a 240 Carbonext??


On the one hand I have considered the CN, and I know I would be happy with it. But, on the other, when there are so many knives it would seem silly to get something which I've already owned..

Lefty
02-10-2013, 09:25 AM
Just buy a Dragon and convex the left side a bit. It's not that drastic, really.

K-Fed
02-10-2013, 10:44 AM
Just buy a Dragon and convex the left side a bit. It's not that drastic, really.

+1 I've got a 240 swedish gyuto, well had one. Still waiting to get it back from dave with a new dress ;-) and also lefty and had no problems using it. Worked fine for me with no steering or drastic sticking issues.

Benuser
02-10-2013, 11:02 AM
Dear lefties, please explain. You want to recenter the edge and convex the left side. So far so good. But shouldn't you as well flatten the right side to reduce its convexity?? Otherwise, with a recentered edge, you would have two convexed, almost symmetric faces, which would cause huge wedging IMHO. What am I missing??

rdm_magic
02-10-2013, 11:03 AM
Is the SS better than the Masamoto then? What about other options in the price range?

What would be subjectively the best knife I can get that I can use as an all purpose knife?

chinacats
02-10-2013, 11:19 AM
If you were willing to stretch the budget a bit, the Kochi is a great performer.

rdm_magic
02-10-2013, 11:33 AM
I can stretch my budget, I have savings that I can spend if I want. The thing is that I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to fully appreciate buying a wisely chosen 500$ knife over something that costs me 200$, as I'm not sure if I'm enough of a sharpener to bring out its potential, knife skills aren't great enough to full bring out its potential. But then maybe I should just get *the* knife so that I don't need to buy one as my skills + ability do improve. I'm quite torn over it.

labor of love
02-10-2013, 04:53 PM
im also a lefty and i enjoyed my misono swed gyuto. the masamoto hc isnt nearly as a good a knife and is quite overpriced. theres lots of praise on some forums about the masamoto hc but i think most of the praise was written 5-7 years ago. i think better options are available now.

chinacats
02-10-2013, 09:09 PM
The thing is that I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to fully appreciate buying a wisely chosen 500$ knife over something that costs me 200$, as I'm not sure if I'm enough of a sharpener to bring out its potential, knife skills aren't great enough to full bring out its potential. But then maybe I should just get *the* knife so that I don't need to buy one as my skills + ability do improve.

The Kochi is currently out of stock, but runs less than $300. As to sharpening, it is a fairly easy knife to keep up, as to skills I think a good knife can help with skills as it allows you to focus on technique rather than worrying about forcing a cut. I keep buying 'the knife' and trading it for another:biggrin: Nice though that you can recover most of your money when you resell and then try something else. I think you really need to find one that the profile fits your technique and that feels good in hand (balance, weight, length), the benefit to trying a bunch of knives is that you can really fine tune what you are looking for--the more you try, the more you learn what you like.
:2cents:
Cheers

Canadian
02-10-2013, 09:21 PM
im also a lefty and i enjoyed my misono swed gyuto. the masamoto hc isnt nearly as a good a knife and is quite overpriced. theres lots of praise on some forums about the masamoto hc but i think most of the praise was written 5-7 years ago. i think better options are available now.

I owned the HC and its strength was absolutely its steel. Very unreactive, great edge retention and sharpened up very easily.

Canadian
02-10-2013, 09:23 PM
I owned the HC and its strength was absolutely its steel. Very unreactive, great edge retention and sharpened up very easily.

But I didn't like its profile. I'm actually thinking about picking up a swede primarily because its one of the few western handled gyutos that has the Sab/KS profile that I love and will only have.

labor of love
02-10-2013, 09:31 PM
the profile of the misono swed actually has a long subtle curve.

franzb69
02-10-2013, 09:55 PM
i own the HC now bought it from another user on here. I wanna try out the dragon as well.

Lefty
02-10-2013, 10:42 PM
I've toyed with selling mine (even though it's one of my true prizes...I know I'd regret it, though).

chinacats
02-10-2013, 10:55 PM
I've toyed with selling mine (even though it's one of my true prizes...I know I'd regret it, though).

Blasphemy!

or

KS is really THAT good?

Canadian
02-10-2013, 10:58 PM
I've toyed with selling mine (even though it's one of my true prizes...I know I'd regret it, though).

You have a KS?

rdm_magic
02-11-2013, 01:34 PM
From these forums I'm considering an A type now aswell. Out of the question for a leftie? What kind of work will I have to do on arrival?
It comes highly rated and falls right in my budget (http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/aritsugu-astyle-240mm-blade-wa-gy240.html if thats the right one)

franzb69
02-12-2013, 03:50 AM
as was posted on that thread about the aritsugu A type, you'll have to do a lot of work to completely work for a lefty.

but i have a couple righty knives in western handles that work okay for me. ingredients sticking to the left side of the knife is annoying since it's practically completely flat. but as most things for lefties, it's something you just gotta get used to in a world where the japanese make knives really for righties and lefties have it bad and just get "adjusted" righty blades so they work a little better for us.

not a lot of 50/50 grind j knives out there so....you know how it is.

if you really want a better performing knife that's friendly for both righties and lefties that you don't have to really work on, look for 50/50 grind blades that's around $250 mark and up. or if you really want a lefty knife, you'll just have to get a custom and pay extra for the custom work.

i'm already saving up for custom lefty knives. nothing too expensive as i am, well, financially challenged and living in a 3rd world country..... i'm looking into wa handled knives these days to try them out. as i've already contacted a couple j knife makers online, it takes about 30-90 days to get a custom knife. but those are smaller and lesser known knife makers. you might wanna do the same, having a custom. easier for you that way. easier to maintain, less thinking about getting a better performing knife and overthinking sharpening angles and such.

such is our pain of being a lefty in a righty world. lol. i'm so bitter. it sucks so bad that i really started out earlier in life as a right handed person but ended up becoming left handed coz i pretty much forgot how to use my right hand for writing and other stuff. i tried using my right hand for cutting with knives, and it turns out i have quite a bit of carpal tunnel syndrome on it from decades of using a mouse and keyboard. so.... i'm stuck with using my left for knives. lol. i guess you can say i'm a bit ambidextrous. i can use a gun with either hand, dribble a ball, use a mouse, but can't write or cut with my right even if my life depended on it.

sorry just sourgraping here. lol.

franzb69
02-12-2013, 04:09 AM
one last thing, when you get to wanna have like a honesuki, a deba, a hankotsu and other more asymmetric knives.... you'll really end up getting either a custom one or a specially ordered left handed version. so i'd like to think you'd get what you really want when you order one that's really fit for your needs.

it'll "pay" in the end, paying extra for what you want.

=D


unless you like giving yourself a hard time. i know i do. lol. i'm a bit of a masochist that way.

Lefty
02-12-2013, 05:11 AM
Yup, I have a KS. :) It's damned good, and has definitely made the Dragon redundant. However, the Dragon has also made the KS redundant, depending on my mood. How many gyutos does a guy really need? Haha

Chefdog
02-12-2013, 08:35 AM
Does anyone know if Misono makes another version of the Swedish carbon line? I found these: http://www.chuboknives.com/collections/misono/Carbon while looking around the net.
They are roughly 20-25% cheaper than at JCK and they also don't have the Dragon.
What gives???

rdm_magic
02-12-2013, 08:52 AM
as was posted on that thread about the aritsugu A type, you'll have to do a lot of work to completely work for a lefty.

but i have a couple righty knives in western handles that work okay for me. ingredients sticking to the left side of the knife is annoying since it's practically completely flat. but as most things for lefties, it's something you just gotta get used to in a world where the japanese make knives really for righties and lefties have it bad and just get "adjusted" righty blades so they work a little better for us.

not a lot of 50/50 grind j knives out there so....you know how it is.

if you really want a better performing knife that's friendly for both righties and lefties that you don't have to really work on, look for 50/50 grind blades that's around $250 mark and up. or if you really want a lefty knife, you'll just have to get a custom and pay extra for the custom work.

i'm already saving up for custom lefty knives. nothing too expensive as i am, well, financially challenged and living in a 3rd world country..... i'm looking into wa handled knives these days to try them out. as i've already contacted a couple j knife makers online, it takes about 30-90 days to get a custom knife. but those are smaller and lesser known knife makers. you might wanna do the same, having a custom. easier for you that way. easier to maintain, less thinking about getting a better performing knife and overthinking sharpening angles and such.

such is our pain of being a lefty in a righty world. lol. i'm so bitter. it sucks so bad that i really started out earlier in life as a right handed person but ended up becoming left handed coz i pretty much forgot how to use my right hand for writing and other stuff. i tried using my right hand for cutting with knives, and it turns out i have quite a bit of carpal tunnel syndrome on it from decades of using a mouse and keyboard. so.... i'm stuck with using my left for knives. lol. i guess you can say i'm a bit ambidextrous. i can use a gun with either hand, dribble a ball, use a mouse, but can't write or cut with my right even if my life depended on it.

sorry just sourgraping here. lol.

What customs are you looking at? Price range? I'm not against getting a custom, but the price and relative ignorance of which to get stop me.
+1 for using the mouse as a leftie too, I use a knife and fork the right handed way too. No chance I could write or cut anything with my right though

franzb69
02-12-2013, 09:15 AM
am actually checking out yamawaku stuff on ebay. gonna order a lefty gyuto. if i like it, i might get different size ones and maybe a sujihiki or something. but he does blue steel only so, that might not be an option for you. a lot of my knives are mostly carbon coz i don't mind carbon, actually i love the stuff.

after i get my lefty hankotsu from the mail, which would be probably a week or so from now. i'm aiming to get either a lefty 180mm deba or a tojiro western boning knife. and that's aside from stones. this addiction / passion or whatever you wanna call it is expensive. and kinda makes regular people wanna think, why does this guy have all these knives? is he crazy or something? i guess many of you can relate to that.

trying to complete my kit is all.

=D

my budget isn't big so it's mostly left handed versions that are available online so it won't be too expensive. nothing over 200$ so far. 200$ is already a month's salary here for most people. a lot of people can live off of that here. survive mostly.

Lefty
02-12-2013, 09:20 AM
Yamawaku knives are actually very good. You'll be glad you pulled the trigger.

franzb69
02-12-2013, 09:21 AM
thanks lefty. solidifies my choice for gyuto.

already have a blue steel santoku so i know what i'm getting as steel is concerned.

Lefty
02-12-2013, 09:26 AM
He used to use V2, I believe. You should ask about an upgraded ferrule...yes, seriously. Haha. The handle is great, but the plastic sucks. Other than that, it's a very, very good buy.

I PIF'd my nakiri and I actually miss it a bit. You might find the grind a tad flat, but that allows for a nice easy thinning, and the KU is very textured, so not much sticks.

franzb69
02-12-2013, 09:28 AM
i haven't placed an order yet. i'll take it up with the seller when i do. thanks for the tip.

=D

i don't mind flat grinds. already used to it with using righty knives. lol.



pardon my ignorance. what's V2?

rdm_magic
02-12-2013, 09:32 AM
Alright so someone on here has offered a used 240mm HC for 130 euros shipped, so I'm thinking I'll get that, check it out, if I'm not happy with it re-sell it.

I'm thinking its a good knife, especially at that price, right?

chinacats
02-12-2013, 09:39 AM
what's V2?

A steel type made by Takefu. Used in some Kochi and also some Yoshikane. Very nice steel in my experience, likely due to the skill of maker like anything else.
Cheers!

franzb69
02-12-2013, 09:40 AM
made a quick googling, ok i got the idea on what V2 steel is.


I'm thinking its a good knife, especially at that price, right?

it's a notch below the dragon from what i've read. but i really like my masamoto HC, i don't love it though.

go for it if you really wanna try it out.

=D


A steel type made by Takefu. Used in some Kochi and also some Yoshikane. Very nice steel in my experience, likely due to the skill of maker like anything else.
Cheers!

thanks chinacats.

if yoshikane and kochi uses it. that'd be pretty good stuff.

=D

rdpx
02-12-2013, 09:55 PM
am actually checking out yamawaku stuff on ebay.

just did a google search to see what you were talking about and found this ebay thread, which made me laugh....

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/65771/yamawaku-gyuto-chef-knife-my-story-with-the-ebay-vendor-please-read

franzb69
02-12-2013, 10:45 PM
oh that thread. lol. buyer seller miscommunication. that was two years ago. there's always buyer protection on ebay so i'm not really worried. i've been buying and selling stuff since 2006. so far only 1 instance of a bad transaction. after hundreds upon hundreds of transactions. pretty good =D

TheDispossessed
02-14-2013, 09:56 PM
may be posting a misono 240 ss on bst soon, fyi

Chefdog
02-15-2013, 12:22 AM
Can someone who owns a 240 Misono swede possibly give me some rough measurements? I've seen different sites quote some varying numbers. Just wanna know what the cutting edge runs and what the blade height is.
I'd appreciate it, thanks.

franzb69
02-15-2013, 12:31 AM
shoulda seen dispossessed's post earlier.

labor of love
02-15-2013, 12:35 AM
i believe the cutting length is around 246mm. they run just a little long. i never measured the heel, but my guest would be 47-50mm tall.

labor of love
02-15-2013, 12:47 AM
one last thing, when you get to wanna have like a honesuki, a deba, a hankotsu and other more asymmetric knives.... you'll really end up getting either a custom one or a specially ordered left handed version. so i'd like to think you'd get what you really want when you order one that's really fit for your needs.

it'll "pay" in the end, paying extra for what you want.

=D


unless you like giving yourself a hard time. i know i do. lol. i'm a bit of a masochist that way.
you know, theres a nice looking yanagiba here at http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Zensho-Yoshikane-V2-Yanagiba-Left-handed-270mm-p/857.htm
along with a nice deba also made by yoshikane. also check out the lefty knives at JKI here http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives-by-type/left-handed-knives.html. they seem reasonably priced for lefties also. cant help you with honesuki or hankotsu though.

franzb69
02-15-2013, 12:55 AM
thank you for showing those to me. i've read about those already.

i'm considering them also. not really looking for a yanagiba though. a suji would be great, already have a few on my short list to consider.

Chefdog
02-15-2013, 01:18 AM
i believe the cutting length is around 246mm. they run just a little long. i never measured the heel, but my guest would be 47-50mm tall.

Thank you.

Benuser
02-15-2013, 08:27 AM
JCK states a width of 51mm, mine measures 48mm after I've made a flat section Ó la franšaise and a few years of use and sharpening. So the 51mm is perfectly convincing to me.

Chefdog
02-15-2013, 09:07 AM
JCK states a width of 51mm, mine measures 48mm after I've made a flat section Ó la franšaise and a few years of use and sharpening. So the 51mm is perfectly convincing to me.

Thanks Benuser. I tend to trust JCK, but wanted to confirm after seeing some conflicting measurements. And the edge runs closer to 250 like Koki states?

Benuser
02-15-2013, 09:20 AM
With my transformed oldie, I measure choil-tip 241mm, and heel-tip along the edge 244. If you take into account my flat section and a small tip repair these 250mm are rather plausible.

Chefdog
02-15-2013, 09:29 AM
With my transformed oldie, I measure heel-tip 241mm, and along the edge 244. If you take into account my flat section and a tip repair these 250mm are rather plausible.

Cool, thanks again.

Benuser
02-15-2013, 09:32 AM
Where I wrote heel-tip please read choil-tip...

Chefdog
02-15-2013, 10:18 AM
Where I wrote heel-tip please read choil-tip...

Thanks Benuser. One more quick question for you: Would you say this is a relatively stiff blade considering its spine thickness? Or is it on the flexible side of things?

Benuser
02-15-2013, 11:12 AM
About the spine thickness: Koki has changed his way of measuring. Today he advertises 2.2mm, previously it was 2mm. I don't believe the knife changed since, it's 2mm in the middle.
There is some flex indeed. The taper seems to start immediately from the spine on. Some people will have to adapt their sharpening technique. In the kitchen, you get used to it very quickly. Because it's no feather weight it doesn't feel awkward.

Chefdog
02-15-2013, 11:14 AM
Thank you sir, I appreciate your help.

Benuser
02-15-2013, 11:51 AM
You're most welcome.