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Marko Tsourkan
02-10-2013, 12:20 PM
Here are two that come to mind:

Full tang knife with riveted handle is better than a hidden tang knife.
I think a hidden tang knife makes more sense for a kitchen knife (unless we are talking production knives with plastic scales), because even stabilized wood will move over time, and separation between a tang and scales will accumulate stuff (food particles, moisture, bacteria), making it less hygienic and if a knife is in carbon steel, you will start seeing rust forming just under the exposed edges.


Knives with forged bolsters are better than knives without
I am not sure I would agree with that either. When a knife is left at a good thickness of 3-3.5mm at the handle, it's as sturdy as it gets, with a bolster or without, so I see a bolster more for as cosmetic and hygienic reasons, and to a degree for a balance, than for anythings else.

What else?

Dream Burls
02-10-2013, 12:27 PM
I think the basic misconception about kitchen knives among the general public is that you need a whole slew of different knives for different tasks. If you look at some of the sets of knives by brands like Shun they probably have a dozen or more types of knives. They even have a panini knife. In reality you can get by with a good paring knife, a good chef knife and a good slicer.

Marko Tsourkan
02-10-2013, 12:51 PM
Now that you mentioned a misconception that people need specialized knives, I quite often hear people need a separate knife to cut tomatoes. Not to peal potatoes, or to carve ham, but to cut tomatoes. Always makes me wonder about the other knives people have.

Don Nguyen
02-10-2013, 12:54 PM
Forged are better than stamped/stock removed.

bieniek
02-10-2013, 01:21 PM
For me they are better cause the soul and passion of the knife maker.

Find no interest or romantism in stamping anything, just like stamping lids on ready-made meals.
But I dont mean it makes the knife better performer or better i any measurable manner.:angel2:

Apart from that many people honestly think they can chop bones or open cans with knife cause "steel is tough isnt it" ?

markenki
02-10-2013, 01:44 PM
Heft is good and necessary. I had that misconception until I was enlightened. My first good knife was a small Carter, and my first impression before I cut with it was "wow, this thing feels flimsy". I was even thinking of asking Carter to make me a heavier knife similar in heft to my Henckels. Glad that request never went out!

ajhuff
02-10-2013, 01:49 PM
Forged are better than stamped/stock removed.

Forged knives ARE better than stamped knives.
Stock removed knives ARE better than stamped knives.

Some forged knives are better than stock removed knives.
Some stock removal knives are better than forged knives.

-AJ

El Pescador
02-10-2013, 02:18 PM
Forged knives ARE better than stamped knives.
Stock removed knives ARE better than stamped knives.

Some forged knives are better than stock removed knives.
Some stock removal knives are better than forged knives.

-AJ

Really? How so? Weren't the sheets of steel forged initially?

Canadian
02-10-2013, 02:33 PM
Forged knives ARE better than stamped knives.
Stock removed knives ARE better than stamped knives.

-AJ

As a person who loves hand forged knives, this simply isn't true in any measurable, objective sense.

Most Japanese knives that many here love and own are stamped then machine ground and they are excellent performers.

Mike L.
02-10-2013, 02:40 PM
The same handle design that works on a hunter or bowie works on a kitchen knife...........(not). :knife:

JBroida
02-10-2013, 02:46 PM
we did something similar to this a while back... some of this thread might be relevant

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/7771-Dispelling-Myths?highlight=myths

maxim
02-10-2013, 02:49 PM
I feel kind of in same way :) Good food comparison
It is like ready made meals, some of them taste good

But even bad homemade meal is better then read-made
Just my :2cents:


For me they are better cause the soul and passion of the knife maker.

Find no interest or romantism in stamping anything, just like stamping lids on ready-made meals.
But I dont mean it makes the knife better performer or better i any measurable manner.:angel2:

Apart from that many people honestly think they can chop bones or open cans with knife cause "steel is tough isnt it" ?

kalaeb
02-10-2013, 02:49 PM
Funny, this is the second time I have seen the hygenic argument raised for full tangs this week and I think stating full tang knives as less hygenic is a complete hyperbole and misrepresentation. Hygenic issues arise from poor sanitation issues period, regardless of the tools used. From cutting boards to misc kitchen tools etc...a fraction of a gap, whether in full tang or hidden tang (I have seen many hidden tangs with gaps) is not going to present issues with regular cleaning. I have numerous 100 year old full tang knives that still see frequent use.

I am not siding for one or the other, I love hidden tang westerns, but the hygenic argument is not valid.

Marko Tsourkan
02-10-2013, 03:04 PM
Funny, this is the second time I have seen the hygenic argument raised for full tangs this week and I think stating full tang knives as less hygenic is a complete hyperbole and misrepresentation. Hygenic issues arise from poor sanitation issues period, regardless of the tools used. From cutting boards to misc kitchen tools etc...a fraction of a gap, whether in full tang or hidden tang (I have seen many hidden tangs with gaps) is not going to present issues with regular cleaning. I have numerous 100 year old full tang knives that still see frequent use.

I am not siding for one or the other, I love hidden tang westerns, but the hygenic argument is not valid.

I see your point.

When a knife handle is completely sealed, with no space for water or bacteria to get in, in my opinion you are going to reduce a chance that some of that stuff might end up on your hands and somehow on the food you prepare. This was an assumption based on reasoning - I didn't base it on anything I have read or heard.

Any old knife with natural wood handle will show some gap between the tang and the scales. On my F. Dick knife is is about .5mm all around. Granted it is an old knife, but still.

M

heirkb
02-10-2013, 03:13 PM
Funny, this is the second time I have seen the hygenic argument raised for full tangs this week and I think stating full tang knives as less hygenic is a complete hyperbole and misrepresentation. Hygenic issues arise from poor sanitation issues period, regardless of the tools used. From cutting boards to misc kitchen tools etc...a fraction of a gap, whether in full tang or hidden tang (I have seen many hidden tangs with gaps) is not going to present issues with regular cleaning. I have numerous 100 year old full tang knives that still see frequent use.

I am not siding for one or the other, I love hidden tang westerns, but the hygenic argument is not valid.

All I know is that the full tang knife I did a lot of squid with didn't really have any visible gaps between tang and scale and was washed regularly, but it still managed to build up some disgusting rotten squid goop under the scales of the handle...

ajhuff
02-10-2013, 04:11 PM
Really? How so? Weren't the sheets of steel forged initially?

Metal for stamping is made to be stamped. It's more than it just happens to be thin. The chemistry isn't compatible with being a good knife.

-AJ

ThEoRy
02-10-2013, 04:14 PM
High Carbon Stainless Steel........ :scratchhead:

JBroida
02-10-2013, 04:18 PM
having spent time looking at various samples under microscope i have to disagree with you on this

ajhuff
02-10-2013, 04:22 PM
having spent time looking at various samples under microscope i have to disagree with you on this

Disagree with...???

-AJ

gic
02-10-2013, 04:27 PM
I actually belief that for people without perfect technique (i.e. someone like me), a thicker German profile knife for rock chopping is a good thing.

I am a home cook so of course I have far more space than a pro would have but I use two knifes when I cook if rock chopping is needed, a gyuto (I have a bunch of gyuto's I love so I switch them around) for slicing and then a German profile (almost always my Messermeister Elite but sometimes some older Wusthof knifes which were my first knifes purchases).

But I suppose the fact that I only bought one German profile knife in 10 years and maybe 20 guyto's says something...)

Timthebeaver
02-10-2013, 04:29 PM
High Carbon Stainless Steel........ :scratchhead:



Steel can be both high carbon and "stainless". ZDP-189 for example contains more than twice as much carbon than white #1 but is stain resistant by virtue of the high (20%) chromium content in the alloy.

JBroida
02-10-2013, 04:29 PM
on the stamped knife vs forged knife... i've spend time not only using, but also inspecting both with knife experts and metalurgists in japan. There are some pretty good stamped and/or stock removal knives being produced now days with heat treatments that easily put them on par with some of the best forged knives i've seen.

labor of love
02-10-2013, 04:33 PM
would someone mind listing some examples of popular stamped knives? im just curious which knives are being discussed here.

bieniek
02-10-2013, 04:36 PM
When a knife handle is completely sealed, with no space for water or bacteria to get in,



That unfortunately is wishful thinking. From my side too cause Im quite concerned about bacteria in the kitchen. Saying totally sealed is like to say bacteria free kitchen.

You would have to have a metal handle on your knife I think. I dont want that.

ajhuff
02-10-2013, 04:39 PM
Stamped and stock removal are not the same thing. I'm wondering if perhaps what you guys call stamping is actually something else. I used to melt down 50-100 tons od stampings per day for about 5 years, including knife blanks. I'm pretty familiar with the chemistry. Not saying you're wrong but your observations don't match my observations. :)

-AJ

Canadian
02-10-2013, 04:40 PM
Metal for stamping is made to be stamped. It's more than it just happens to be thin. The chemistry isn't compatible with being a good knife. :laughat:

-AJ

I'm going to say what many people here I'm sure are thinking, and that is, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Timthebeaver
02-10-2013, 04:40 PM
Surely makers of high end stock removal knives (e.g. the Sakai layzors) are working with stock which has already been machine forged?.

Canadian
02-10-2013, 04:42 PM
Stamped and stock removal are not the same thing. I'm wondering if perhaps what you guys call stamping is actually something else. I used to melt down 50-100 tons od stampings per day for about 5 years, including knife blanks. I'm pretty familiar with the chemistry. Not saying you're wrong but your observations don't match my observations. :)

-AJ

Please divulge. What is it about their "chemistry" that is bad?

ajhuff
02-10-2013, 07:07 PM
Please divulge. What is it about their "chemistry" that is bad?

Stampings usually have very low alloy content, particularly very low Mn content for deep drawing properties. You want a low shear strength to facilitate easy cutting of the sheet.

-AJ

Marko Tsourkan
02-10-2013, 07:30 PM
That unfortunately is wishful thinking. From my side too cause Im quite concerned about bacteria in the kitchen. Saying totally sealed is like to say bacteria free kitchen.

You would have to have a metal handle on your knife I think. I dont want that.


We are not talking here in absolute terms, are we? When you have a handle with components (one piece construction vs scales) that will not separate and create gaps and the handle from inside is filled with epoxy that can move with the movement of the wood without cracking, in my world that would be a pretty sealed handle. The joint between the handle and bolster are sealed with epoxy.

On microscopic level there always will be voids and gaps for bacteria to hide, so if that what you mean by impossibility of bacteria-free environment, I would have to agree with you.

By the way, you would have to sterilize your knife with a metal handle for it to be completely bacteria-free.

M

Don Nguyen
02-10-2013, 07:38 PM
Stampings usually have very low alloy content, particularly very low Mn content for deep drawing properties. You want a low shear strength to facilitate easy cutting of the sheet.

-AJ

What about the low alloy content makes them bad? 1095 and W2 are pretty low in Mn and other alloying elements but they seem to work fine - is there something else besides annealing them that has to be done, compromising the end result?

I just figure that if you can just stamp out the shape, it'd be the same as removing the steel via machining/grinding.

stevenStefano
02-10-2013, 07:42 PM
Not sure if it fits here, but I take issue with the assumption that rock chopping is bad and shouldn't be practiced. Many times it is much much quicker and more efficient than push cutting. Sometimes people talk about when they used to do it in the past, as if it is something to be ashamed of

ThEoRy
02-10-2013, 08:28 PM
Steel can be both high carbon and "stainless". ZDP-189 for example contains more than twice as much carbon than white #1 but is stain resistant by virtue of the high (20%) chromium content in the alloy.

Sorry I should have added some context. I'm not referring to the $900 gyuto. I'm talking about the marketing speak companies like cutco and whatever the hell Rachael Ray and guy fiere are using.

ajhuff
02-10-2013, 08:42 PM
What about the low alloy content makes them bad? 1095 and W2 are pretty low in Mn and other alloying elements but they seem to work fine - is there something else besides annealing them that has to be done, compromising the end result?

I just figure that if you can just stamp out the shape, it'd be the same as removing the steel via machining/grinding.

1095 is not a deep draw steel. 1005 is.
AEB-L is not a deep draw steel, 430 is.

Stamped steel has very low carbon.


-AJ

JBroida
02-10-2013, 08:46 PM
i know guys that stamp 19c27, white #2, A2, and many other high quality steels

EdipisReks
02-10-2013, 08:50 PM
Stampings usually have very low alloy content, particularly very low Mn content for deep drawing properties. You want a low shear strength to facilitate easy cutting of the sheet.

-AJ

sounds like a personal problem. most of the people i know who deal with stampings are in the aerospace field, so maybe things are just different, elsewhere.

Canadian
02-10-2013, 09:18 PM
i know guys that stamp 19c27, white #2, A2, and many other high quality steels

Likewise, I am familiar with knives made out of these steels that are stamped.

I actually don't own any stamped knives currently, but I have owned and used many and all were pretty much great knives with excellent steels.

ajhuff
02-10-2013, 09:40 PM
Well what can I say.. :surrendar:

-AJ

El Pescador
02-10-2013, 10:04 PM
Well what can I say.. :surrendar:

-AJ

That's the point. Many of us have our own misconceptions. I am constantly being reminded on the forum of many things I thought were true being not so. That's what makes a forum like this great.

Canadian
02-10-2013, 11:02 PM
Well what can I say.. :surrendar:

-AJ

AJ,

I hope you took my earlier comment as being tongue-in-cheek. I was reminded of a line in one of Wes Anderson's recent films.

Of course it is always difficult to discern subtle humour on the internet. I'm always open to learning something new...

Regards!

mpukas
02-10-2013, 11:47 PM
Well what can I say.. :surrendar:

-AJ

I think there's a misconception between your professional use of the term stamped and the way it's used here in this context of kitchen knives. We use the term stamped loosely to refer to a knife where the pattern has be somehow cut from either a sheet of metal or bar stock. That method could be stamped with a press and a pattern, or a pattern could be traced and then cut with an angle grinder, or laser or water jet cut.

Furthermore, stamped is not accurate to describe mono-steel knives (I suppose there are pre-fab clad metal sheets - I think Carter uses them for his SS knives, among others) that are not hand forged because there are some makers that hand forge the blank, and then put it in a press with a pattern, and stamp the final shape.

Our little bubble is filled with many misused words. Stamped is going to generally refer to mono-steel steel knives that are fabricated from sheet or bar stock metal, using a press or a cutting method to create a pre-determined pattern, and then ground or milled to finished geometry. Accuracy be damned!

I find no truth what so ever that a forged knife is better in any way, shape, or form than a stamped and ground knife. Just as much care, expertise and skill goes into creating a knife from bar stock as does from forging perhaps less steps. Nothing drives me more nuts that someone who is very skilled in a certain craft and a particular way of doing something, but the end result has some quirky features that the maker may be adamant about, but actually are not providing anything beneficial to the final product (Jon can relate tho this :wink: ).

ajhuff
02-10-2013, 11:55 PM
Ahhh.... Sorry I did not know that knife nuts had redefined stamping. This is a good example of stamping:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N21EivLa9Rs

And it what I was referring to. This is how your mass market knives at superstores are made.

-AJ

bieniek
02-11-2013, 02:47 AM
We are not talking here in absolute terms, are we? When you have a handle with components (one piece construction vs scales) that will not separate and create gaps and the handle from inside is filled with epoxy that can move with the movement of the wood without cracking, in my world that would be a pretty sealed handle. The joint between the handle and bolster are sealed with epoxy.



I totally agree but why not use same epoxy to connect wood and metal on scales-type handle?
So maybe safer to say that both types mishandled or sloppily made - like some WA handles straight from Japan with big holes between wood and ferrule... Or like Wictorinox type scales where in new knife they already
will not be hygienic.

But both properly made might be safe.
Could that be acceptable way to put it?



On microscopic level there always will be voids and gaps for bacteria to hide, so if that what you mean by impossibility of bacteria-free environment, I would have to agree with you.

M

That is exactly what I meant. When people talk bacteria, they see those big monsters from TVcommercial tat are swimming in your toilet, or this sludge that forms in the gaps on the handle.
But I would prefer to say that without a brush and a bleach after evvery use, you will never eliminate cotamination given the real size of a bacteria unit.



By the way, you would have to sterilize your knife with a metal handle for it to be completely bacteria-free.

M

Yes, by using chlorine solution for example but I find no point in doing so. Good scrub is the way for me. Thats why my wooden handles look bad and thats why I am not fond of precious woods, when I scrub them 20x a day.

keithsaltydog
02-11-2013, 04:14 AM
I was under the impression that good steel is stamped out before heat treatment,the steel is in a whole diff. ballpark after treatment,this goes for quality carbon & quality stain resistant steels.

I've bought some less expensive forged carbon blades,had to fill in tang bolster area wt. Epoxy Resin.Other fit & finish issues,no big deal as long as the steel is good.

Bolsters are overrated,Used rosewood handle Forchner's in kitchens,before I switched to J-Carbon Gyuto's.The scales do get bacteria & gaps after much use.The Fibrox handles are cheaper & more sanitary.

We had classes in food safety.Hotel spent some bucks for that,were even using color coded plastic cutting boards.

franzb69
02-11-2013, 04:53 AM
i'm with salty here.

toddnmd
02-11-2013, 08:50 AM
One misconception I often see/hear is about the importance of "balance."

daddy yo yo
02-11-2013, 09:07 AM
When people talk bacteria, they see those big monsters from TVcommercial tat are swimming in your toiletOFF TOPIC: i recently saw on TV that bacteria contamination on our beloved smartphone touchscreens exceeds by far bacteria contamination on public (!) toilet seats...

i agree that i expect, as a customer, a high level of hygiene in a professional kitchen. but i am not sure if the knife handle makes that much of a difference. but i don't know much about it...

btw, during a recent visit to a high class restaurant in austria i had the chance to take a look into the kitchen through a window on the way to the restrooms. while that improves customers' confidence and trust (it gives you the impression that there's nothing to hide), one of the things you definitely do not want to see is a sweating and overweight cook/assistant digging a spoon into the pot, shoving the whole spoon into his mouth, and then digging again into the very same pot and placing the food on the plates for the customers... i watched closely for 2 or 3 minutes, and while i can understand that he was hungry at 11 pm, this is not what i want to see...

Don Nguyen
02-11-2013, 09:59 AM
Ahhh.... Sorry I did not know that knife nuts had redefined stamping. This is a good example of stamping:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N21EivLa9Rs

And it what I was referring to. This is how your mass market knives at superstores are made.

-AJ

What I was getting at before was, couldn't this process be done with 1095? How is this stamping any different from what Japanese makers use when they cut out their profiles with a hydraulic press, besides number?

Not trying to poke too hard, but I wasn't aware about specific deep drawing steels being used for mass stamping, and if it can only be done with those steels. I like thinking about production methods, so I'm curious.

mhlee
02-11-2013, 03:03 PM
One misconception I often see/hear is about the importance of "balance."

I personally think balance, which, to me, is the weight distribution between the blade and the handle, is extremely important. A well balanced knife is easier to control, which makes it easier to do delicate or precise cuts, and also results in less overall hand fatigue.

Personally, I don't think enough importance is placed on balance.

Zwiefel
02-11-2013, 03:24 PM
I personally think balance, which, to me, is the weight distribution between the blade and the handle, is extremely important. A well balanced knife is easier to control, which makes it easier to do delicate or precise cuts, and also results in less overall hand fatigue.

Personally, I don't think enough importance is placed on balance.

What I've learned about balance is that people think there is only one correct way to balance a knife. But much depends on the way the knife was intended to be used and the personal style of the user. I used to think that the balance point should be exactly at the place where your thumb-tip falls in a pinch grip...and that is a great balance point for many purposes...but if you want to do chopping/pushcutting, it's better for the balance to move forward a bit.

I don't have much experience with it, but I imagine that for a boning knife, you might want the balance a bit farther back...maybe also true for smaller pettys and parers as those are also for "in hand" work.

:newhere:

cookinstuff
02-11-2013, 03:26 PM
When I broke the scales off my old trusty boning knife I was shocked, I kept this thing clean, the tang looked great, rivets all good. Tiny gap at the top, just small hole inbetween the scales. Once the scales were removed, the whole tang was covered in black nasty crud and rust, you couldn't even tell from the spine of the tang, it looked great and clean. Needless to say, if there is room for any amount of anything to get in, it will get bad in 10 years. I prefer wa handles, but I know some of those tiny microscopic gaps are going to be issues in 10-20 years, but whatever, new handle.

labor of love
02-11-2013, 03:34 PM
before i was a knife geek, i learned from other cooks that the balance point HAD to be at the bolster. that alone would indicate whether or not a knife was suitable for use. lol

jaybett
02-11-2013, 05:40 PM
I don't know if these are more misconceptions or pet peeves.

Focusing on the steel type, instead of the maker. An offshoot of this idea, the heat treat is more important then the metal. No the ability of the maker is key.

Speed chopping, how does it show the capability of a knife? Why even bother to speed chop with a sujihiki or petty?

Limiting the size of a knife, because one lives in a small space. Are you going to punch through the wall of your apartment with a 270 gyuto?

Rating knives based on cutting ability. Sharpness is a given with most Japanese knives. So how can one say that this knife cuts better then that knife?

Okay this is definitely a pet peeve. I cringe every time I hear the statement, Why do you want that knife? A gyuto can do everything that knife can, plus more. A gyuto cannot do everything as well as other knives. I always want to ask what do people mean by more?

The other side of this statement is don't get a nakiri, or cleaver, because they lack a tip. A santoku is no good, because it has a stubby tip. A nakiri or cleaver are better then a gyuto, at chopping vegetables or fruit. So what is the advantage of a pointed tip?

Jay

Chef Doom
02-12-2013, 01:59 AM
I tend to see a common misconception regarding bacteria. People tend to greatly overestimate the strength and longevity of common bacteria. Particularly regarding food and kitchen environments. Most bacteria can be killed with either 20 seconds of contact with mild soap and water or applying alcohol and allowing it to air dry. The water temperature doesn't even really mater either. I know vinegar is effective but I don't the the studies on strength and contact time. I'm pretty sure that bacteria getting inside the handle is the least of a cooks worries (compared to spoiled food getting on the plate).

And bieniek, I don't know exactly what you meant by scrubbing your handles, my guess would be a sponge, but if you are using a stiff and aggressive abrasive material, then I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you may be wasting your time.

I don't know much about metal stamping and forge processes, but I will say that I learned early that argument was a marketing gimmick often used by high end kitchen supply stores that I grew to ignore.

One of the many misconceptions that gets to me is when people start talking about the soul of a knife. Saying this process gives the knife soul or doesn't. It is clearly an epidemic of people watching way too much anime and martial arts cinema.

Canadian
02-12-2013, 02:19 AM
One of the many misconceptions that gets to me is when people start talking about the soul of a knife. Saying this process gives the knife soul or doesn't. It is clearly an epidemic of people watching way too much anime and martial arts cinema.

+1

I understand that there is a quality judgment to be made regarding anything that is made by a master of his or her craft. Absolutely, there is something 'special' about hand made knives and I think this is because there is an inherent quality in something being made by someone who truly understands the relationship between the underlyinng form, function and aesthetic...

But does a knife have a soul? No.

TB_London
02-12-2013, 02:27 AM
May be an interesting read

http://cashenblades.com/images/articles/lowdown.html

keithsaltydog
02-12-2013, 04:11 AM
Thanks TB enjoyed reading that

franzb69
02-12-2013, 04:12 AM
the link was very englightening.

Lefty
02-12-2013, 04:59 AM
Kevin Cashen is the man! Or, one of them.

Anywho, the misconception that always got me was that Japanese style knives are too brittle to use on anything harder than a sweet potato. This is only true when the steel is pushed to its limit for hardening (or close). If the maker thinks about durability and tempers a knife down a couple of points, it really shouldn't be that much more brittle than most other knives that have a decent HT. Yes, there's a trade off for having a harder AND thinner knife with a steeper angled bevel/bevels, but I have a habit of misusing my knives, and I don't think I've ever chipped a blade past "micro-chip" territory. I'm currently in love with my Harner petty/gyuto, and I use it on just about everything, at home. Parsley, tomatoes, chicken, frozen chicken, frozen sausage, frozen chicken sausage...if you don't slam the knife against the board, you can get quite a bit of mileage out of an edge.

Marko Tsourkan
02-12-2013, 08:53 AM
One of the many misconceptions that gets to me is when people start talking about the soul of a knife. Saying this process gives the knife soul or doesn't. It is clearly an epidemic of people watching way too much anime and martial arts cinema.

Yes, particularly when a knife doesn't have one. However, it must be said, that a superb heat treatment, performance, aesthetics, demonstrates pride makers take in their work and a new owner get a little bit of that with a knife.

This is not as much misconception as personal dislike when Western makers use Eastern symbols or names (outside of proper names for the knives) to show the profound influence Japanese knives made on them. And sometimes use wabi-sabi concept (again, Japanese influence), trying to pass mediocre for quality work.

ThEoRy
02-12-2013, 02:30 PM
13234

bieniek
02-12-2013, 03:30 PM
I tend to see a common misconception regarding bacteria. People tend to greatly overestimate the strength and longevity of common bacteria. Particularly regarding food and kitchen environments. Most bacteria can be killed with either 20 seconds of contact with mild soap and water or applying alcohol and allowing it to air dry. The water temperature doesn't even really mater either. I know vinegar is effective but I don't the the studies on strength and contact time. I'm pretty sure that bacteria getting inside the handle is the least of a cooks worries (compared to spoiled food getting on the plate).


So you mean like you just touch the soap and you hands are clean? Bollocks. What about under your fingernails?




And bieniek, I don't know exactly what you meant by scrubbing your handles, my guess would be a sponge, but if you are using a stiff and aggressive abrasive material, then I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you may be wasting your time.


I meant scourer.
Bollocks.



It is clearly an epidemic of people watching way too much anime and martial arts cinema.

LOL.

jimbob
02-12-2013, 05:47 PM
It is a common misconception that you will have any spare money after venturing into this forum.

Crothcipt
02-12-2013, 08:45 PM
It is a common misconception that you will have any spare money after venturing into this forum.
Dam we just went to saying "Welcome" instead of that warning.

K-Fed
02-12-2013, 09:37 PM
It is a common misconception that you will have any spare money after venturing into this forum.

+1 ain't that the truth. Love every moment though.

maxim
02-13-2013, 02:06 AM
One of the many misconceptions that gets to me is when people start talking about the soul of a knife. Saying this process gives the knife soul or doesn't. It is clearly an epidemic of people watching way too much anime and martial arts cinema.

I dont think that anyone that taking about soul actually mean that knife have soul ;)
But rather that knife is hand made and unique not mass produced, one of the kind etc.
it can also mean that knife maker have long history behind him with many generations of knife, sword making.
Instead of explaining all that people say knife have soul, you can call it something els if you wish.

El Pescador
02-13-2013, 11:13 AM
Myth: You have to spend a bunch of money to get a great knife.
Truth: Morey money give you more options, not all of them are good!

Vladimir
02-13-2013, 04:07 PM
I dont think that anyone that taking about soul actually mean that knife have soul ;)
But rather that knife is hand made and unique not mass produced, one of the kind etc.
it can also mean that knife maker have long history behind him with many generations of knife, sword making.
Instead of explaining all that people say knife have soul, you can call it something els if you wish.
+1000000000
I think that is the soul of the knife but not in the literal sense, of course. but it gives heat to the hands of the master, the love that he put into his knife.
more appropriate name-aura
have cold things, and there is a warm
knife forged it is warm and the film industry is not to blame

El Pescador
02-13-2013, 04:18 PM
+1000000000
I think that is the soul of the knife but not in the literal sense, of course. but it gives heat to the hands of the master, the love that he put into his knife.
more appropriate name-aura
have cold things, and there is a warm
knife forged it is warm and the film industry is not to blame

Whatever gets you through the night...

ThEoRy
02-13-2013, 04:27 PM
Does art not have a soul? Can you cook with soul? Do people not say, "This food has soul" or , "Good food comes from the soul" , "He put a lot of soul into this dish" etc? A knife therefor can indeed be imbued with the craftsman's soul.

Canadian
02-13-2013, 04:32 PM
+1000000000
I think that is the soul of the knife but not in the literal sense, of course. but it gives heat to the hands of the master, the love that he put into his knife.
more appropriate name-aura
have cold things, and there is a warm
knife forged it is warm and the film industry is not to blame

I think this is fallacious insofar that not all handmade items are high quality, and that warm fuzzy feeling you are talking about is purely subjective, conscious perception i.e. emotion.

There is nothing wrong with this, but as an old Ukrainian farmer that I once knew would say, "let's call a shovel a God damned shovel!"

Canadian
02-13-2013, 04:35 PM
Does art not have a soul? Can you cook with soul? Do people not say, "This food has soul" or , "Good food comes from the soul" , "He put a lot of soul into this dish" etc? A knife therefor can indeed be imbued with the craftsman's soul.

The problem is that individuals are trying to articulate a quality that is by its very nature un-definable, and purely emotional.

Read the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" as I think it is a good book on the way [many] people think, and is particularly pertinent to all of us.

Salty dog
02-13-2013, 05:32 PM
Soul might not be accurate but there is something there.

A musician and his favorite instrument.
A warrior and his most trusted weapon.
A cowboy and his horse.
A cook in the zone with his favorite knife.

If I have a killer day ahead of me, I know what knife I'm going to use and when I grab it I get a warm and fuzzy feeling. No kidding. It's part of getting your head in the right place for what's to come.

jimbob
02-13-2013, 05:38 PM
Great book and good comparison for anything handmade with care. I get joy from simply looking and holding my knives!

Canadian
02-13-2013, 07:07 PM
Soul might not be accurate but there is something there.

A musician and his favorite instrument.
A warrior and his most trusted weapon.
A cowboy and his horse.
A cook in the zone with his favorite knife.

If I have a killer day ahead of me, I know what knife I'm going to use and when I grab it I get a warm and fuzzy feeling. No kidding. It's part of getting your head in the right place for what's to come.

Exactly. It's your relationship with that item that makes it special.

However, it's not quantifiable and anybody that says a Shigefusa has more soul than a Masamoto is full of $hit. You can have your reasons for liking the Shigefusa more, but that doesn't make it objectively or measurably better than a Masamoto.

Salty dog
02-13-2013, 07:29 PM
yep

Zwiefel
02-13-2013, 08:33 PM
Exactly. It's your relationship with that item that makes it special.

However, it's not quantifiable and anybody that says a Shigefusa has more soul than a Masamoto is full of $hit. You can have your reasons for liking the Shigefusa more, but that doesn't make it objectively or measurably better than a Masamoto.

D@mmit...I was going to say that! :)

There is a psychology to the contextualization of objects and how that creates the relationship a person has with it. It's a very powerful psychological effect. I have this kind of relationship with my Jeep, with my first jKnife, with one of my sidearms, my first dog, etc. My response to these is not purely rational b/c I have an emotional relationship to them as well.

I think what people call "soul" in art objects like these knives is that they feel like they have a relationship with the maker or the history--in either a specific or generic sense--through ownership of the article.

:2cents:

labor of love
02-13-2013, 08:43 PM
its pretty rational to have an emotional relationship with a dog. not to bust your chops or anything, but i wouldnt consider a dog just another possession like a knife, firearm or vehicle.

Zwiefel
02-13-2013, 08:49 PM
its pretty rational to have an emotional relationship with a dog. not to bust your chops or anything, but i wouldnt consider a dog just another possession like a knife, firearm or vehicle.

Yeah, the emphasis is on "first" there...poor editing on my part.

Dream Burls
02-13-2013, 09:00 PM
D@mmit...I was going to say that! :)

There is a psychology to the contextualization of objects and how that creates the relationship a person has with it. It's a very powerful psychological effect.


Well said. I think it relates to the old adage "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". If something sings to you, you know it. Your senses are attuned to that object and in effect it becomes a living thing that you make a connection with. I think you can have an emotional attachment to an object just as you can with a living being, well maybe not just, but an attachment never the less. I have a pen I love to use not only because of the way it writes, but in my eyes it's beautiful to see and in my hand it feels great. I feel the same way about Marko's custom that I have and a few other possessions. These feelings may not quantifiable, but they are strong and undeniable. It's a good thing too. Imagine how dull things would be if we were never wowed by something.

Vladimir
02-13-2013, 10:57 PM
Exactly. It's your relationship with that item that makes it special.

However, it's not quantifiable and anybody that says a Shigefusa has more soul than a Masamoto is full of $hit. You can have your reasons for liking the Shigefusa more, but that doesn't make it objectively or measurably better than a Masamoto.

Yes I agree with that ,cannot be one person a little pregnant, and second more pregnant ,so the soul, or it is yes or her not.

Marko Tsourkan
02-13-2013, 11:20 PM
Devin told me once that a knife should be made such that it brings up emotions in people. Same applies to art, music, food, sports, etc. That's how I see it too. Bestowing an object with a soul = marketing. I think I saw that description in a pamflet that came with a Watanabe knife some years ago.

Canadian
02-14-2013, 01:38 AM
I'm just going to say it one more time because I think many on this forum would really enjoy/relate to it: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig. This book will provide insight into that elusive aspect of any material object that we are attracted to, which is deeper than any quantifiable reason(s). He even talks--albeit briefly--about sharpening and taking care of ones own knives, which he relates to an deeper understanding and caring attitude, which he then relates to quality--quality being the topic of inquiry. I highly recommend it to all you good folks.

TheDispossessed
02-14-2013, 07:20 AM
I'm just going to say it one more time because I think many on this forum would really enjoy/relate to it: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig. This book will provide insight into that elusive aspect of any material object that we are attracted to, which is deeper than any quantifiable reason(s). He even talks--albeit briefly--about sharpening and taking care of ones own knives, which he relates to an deeper understanding and caring attitude, which he then relates to quality--quality being the topic of inquiry. I highly recommend it to all you good folks.

+1 , great book

TheDispossessed
02-14-2013, 07:22 AM
I have encountered this myth, a knife of nicer make will simply be sharper. half a dozen young line cooks with $200 japanese gyutos that are dull as **** due to lack of care/knowledge and the boys in the prep kitchen have $20 knives that are sharp as hell.

bieniek
02-14-2013, 04:05 PM
Devin told me once that a knife should be made such that it brings up emotions in people. Same applies to art, music, food, sports, etc. That's how I see it too. Bestowing an object with a soul = marketing. I think I saw that description in a pamflet that came with a Watanabe knife some years ago.

So truth.

I think to say that the blade carries the spirit of the samurai or the soul of the craft is total BS but never noticed Shigefusa to mention that.
They dont need too much marketing I think.

What I mean is this: around ten years ago I thought tenis was a boring game, until played myself. For some people boxing is about pure aggression and they dont see any beauty about it, the point is, when I get a knife in my hands that was hand forged, hand ground, polished and hand finished, I can see the amount of work it took. Now that I polished a few blades I know how much it takes, and to do it everyday is hard job that requires passion.
AND thats why I admire it.
Dont have problems selling it, but clearly appreciate amount of dedication involved.

Lucretia
02-14-2013, 04:53 PM
My shoes have souls. (sic) :tease:

convis
02-14-2013, 06:35 PM
So truth.

I think to say that the blade carries the spirit of the samurai or the soul of the craft is total BS but never noticed Shigefusa to mention that.
They dont need too much marketing I think.

What I mean is this: around ten years ago I thought tenis was a boring game, until played myself. For some people boxing is about pure aggression and they dont see any beauty about it, the point is, when I get a knife in my hands that was hand forged, hand ground, polished and hand finished, I can see the amount of work it took. Now that I polished a few blades I know how much it takes, and to do it everyday is hard job that requires passion.
AND thats why I admire it.
Dont have problems selling it, but clearly appreciate amount of dedication involved.

Yes. Soo many people dont understand this. If you find something boring, dull, inappreciable(object activity ect), you most likely don't understand it. Understanding of what is going on, of the story behind it ect. can allow you to see the beauty, the art behind it. Things can be interesting, have value, soul ect. without a deep understanding, but it almost always deepens it.

For example, if my mother(both my parents are artists) were to pick up an interesting rock, she would look at the beauty of the patterns the shape ect. and recognize the emotional response from that. My father studied geology for a long time. He would pick up the same "interesting" rock and would automatically know how it was formed, when, where ect. Because of his artist background he would also appreciate the artistic value. But he would marvel on how the process of formation created the lines within, how it was transported long ago from where it was to where it was found. How erosion helped shape it ect.
My mother may think it is pleasing to the eye ect., but when my father looks at it, his appreciation goes far deeper.

A factory stamped knife may very well function on a equal level of a hand-forged knife. The appreciation of what went into making the handforged knife, the skill required. the years of practice, creates more value in it for the educated user. For me that knowledge of what went into it, and the feeling of connection to the maker, his history, is what gives it "soul".

When you are buying a knife that costs upwards of 500 dollars and own many, you are kidding yourself if you think you are making these purchases for utility alone. The story behind it, the knowledge ect. has value, it may not reflect it in its performance but it is still there nonetheless.

That being said, for an uneducated user, there is no difference. For most people on this site there is, its just not performance based.

Chef Doom
02-16-2013, 02:13 AM
Sorry ThEoRy, but I have never ONCE heard anyone refer to food or a dish having soul. You are confusing this with the term "Soul Food", which is a very different term. And I mostly recall hearing art and soul used in sentences like "This painting shows the artist had a twisted soul". Which is snob speak for the painter was up at 4 in the morning with blurry vision after doing a couple of lines and leaving his glasses at his mother's house. Outside of artwork the only time I used to hear of an object having soul was that it was either possessed, or it was in reference to a samurai sword. After I started hovering around the various knife forums a couple of years ago, I realized this phenomenon had trickled down to kitchen knives.

Why can't we just say that a hand made knife has character, or it's unique, that special craftsman quality. I hate to vent, but I guess I would be more accepting if one of the original phrases were being used properly, like, "he put his heart and soul into his work".

Salty, although I kind of agree with what you say, but Jimi Hendrix clearly showed that a guitar is just a disposable object. A very expensive, costly, disposable object. Or....maybe....he burned his guitars to purify their souls and exorcise demons? Yeah, all makes sense to me now. :bigeek: :scared4:

chinacats
02-16-2013, 02:23 AM
Why can't we just say that a hand made knife has character, or it's unique, that special craftsman quality. I hate to vent, but I guess I would be more accepting if one of the original phrases were being used properly, like, "he put his heart and soul into his work".


So if a knifemaker puts his heart and soul into his work, then his work (knife) has soul...

:running:

ThEoRy
02-16-2013, 03:52 AM
You are confusing this with the term "Soul Food", which is a very different term.

Sorry Doom, I am not confusing the two. Please do not misinterpret what I am saying. I've been in the restaurant game for over 20 years and have worked in the Northeast and the South, I know what soul food is and am pretty well versed in it. What I am speaking of is a very common idiom. For example, "He put his heart and soul into his work." "She put all of her soul into her training" "They put a lot of soul into this food." http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/put+heart+and+soul+into

That being said, I put my heart and soul into everything I do. So weather you guys like it or not my soul is in my works. Be it my writing, my vocals, my food, my carpentry, everything! This is not a misconception. It is a fact. You can not dispute this.

franzb69
02-16-2013, 05:34 AM
i'm with theory on this debate.

Dream Burls
02-16-2013, 10:04 AM
I think all this debating boils down to this:
What you are talking about is basically how someone reacts to their perception. The important thing to remember here is that it is the individual's perception which has formed through their experiences, teachings and environment, that is causing the effect. So there really is no right or wrong, it's just about what touches you based on your perception. Stand in a museum and stare at an abstract piece of art. What does it say to you? What does it say to the person standing next to you? I don't think it's about understanding, I think it's more primal than that. Sometimes understanding dulls the perception since it becomes more cerebral than emotional. And it really doesn't matter at what level you're reacting, it's the reaction that counts. It's not about comparison to others and it's not about standards. It's about each of us being individuals and feelings that dwell deep inside our being.

Chef Doom
02-16-2013, 01:16 PM
I think all this debating boils down to this:
What you are talking about is basically how someone reacts to their perception.

Actually it boils down to the common and widely misuse and misunderstanding of the (American) English language. And I am pretty sure any standard dictionary would be on my side.

I am a true victim of this. The moment when I was a credit card swipe away from paying a large sum of my hard earned precious money to purchase a mizu-honyaki that I was clearly not ready for. The expensive knife I purchased as a beginner from a custom maker that turned out to be a grave disappointment. The mid-level gyuto that I passed up on that was steeply discounted because it was a stock knife which I later found out was a great performer and I made a huge mistake. All because of this evil term 'soul'. Of course, this all happened on that other forum....but still. *sniff*

Now I am tortured soul.... :eek2:

Salty dog
02-16-2013, 01:54 PM
I'll say this, going on day 4 of the V-day marathon I won't be feeling so warm and fuzzy when I grab a knife today.

Jmadams13
02-16-2013, 03:10 PM
What salty said

ThEoRy
02-16-2013, 03:24 PM
Haven't worked a V-Day weekend in 6 years now. Godspeed men!!

brainsausage
02-16-2013, 04:35 PM
I'll say this, going on day 4 of the V-day marathon I won't be feeling so warm and fuzzy when I grab a knife today.

Yup.

Marko Tsourkan
02-16-2013, 07:07 PM
...
That being said, for an uneducated user, there is no difference. For most people on this site there is, its just not performance based.

I am not sure what you mean by that. Kitchen knives make poor collector items or investments, as people tend to use them (unlike other knife folks) rather than keeping them in a drawer.

So, it's all about performance if you see your knife as a tool, an expensive tool at times, and at the end of the day, a knife should be judged by performance. Just ask the pro folks on this forum.

I think it would be greatly disappointing to spend good money on a knife that doesn't perform, but as you pointed out, some see things others don't. I am of the latter kind.

M