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matt_g
02-11-2013, 12:13 AM
So this week at work, i had a problem with my knives. I sharpen on my days off (chosera 400, 1k, 3k, 8k then strop balsa with chromium oxide). Anyways, i have a shun classic 210 chef knife that i use as a beater, and it was not cutting cleanly through food but instead sliding on carrots and the skin of tomatoes, although i took it to a point where it would shave. Had the same problem with a konosuke hd petty. My question is; is there a specific limit where you can take certain steels? Where would you stop sharpening or stropping to avoid this problem?

Dave Martell
02-11-2013, 12:22 AM
Using too many stones can lead to round edges, going with too high of a grit stone in your progression can over polish and round edges, and for sure using chromium oxide (with it's spherical particle shape) to finish will provide a slippery edge.

I'd suggest going no higher than 5k and for a strop use diamond spray as the compound. A medium coarse stone will be refined enough for what you want yet leaves some edge tooth for bite and diamond spray scuffs/scratches the edge to make it even more toothy for even more bite.

Dave Martell
02-11-2013, 12:22 AM
Welcome to KKF :)

cclin
02-11-2013, 12:43 AM
So this week at work, i had a problem with my knives. I sharpen on my days off (chosera 400, 1k, 3k, 8k then strop balsa with chromium oxide). Anyways, i have a shun classic 210 chef knife that i use as a beater, and it was not cutting cleanly through food but instead sliding on carrots and the skin of tomatoes, although i took it to a point where it would shave. Had the same problem with a konosuke hd petty. My question is; is there a specific limit where you can take certain steels? Where would you stop sharpening or stropping to avoid this problem?

:spin chair:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqsbO1w8rXE:spin chair:

Yoni Lang
02-11-2013, 12:59 AM
Using too many stones can lead to round edges, going with too high of a grit stone in your progression can over polish and round edges, and for sure using chromium oxide (with it's spherical particle shape) to finish will provide a slippery edge.

I'd suggest going no higher than 5k and for a strop use diamond spray as the compound. A medium coarse stone will be refined enough for what you want yet leaves some edge tooth for bite and diamond spray scuffs/scratches the edge to make it even more toothy for even more bite.

eeeeenteresting

bieniek
02-11-2013, 02:56 AM
Using too many stones can lead to round edges, going with too high of a grit stone in your progression can over polish and round edges, and for sure using chromium oxide (with it's spherical particle shape) to finish will provide a slippery edge.

I'd suggest going no higher than 5k and for a strop use diamond spray as the compound. A medium coarse stone will be refined enough for what you want yet leaves some edge tooth for bite and diamond spray scuffs/scratches the edge to make it even more toothy for even more bite.

That alone should be made to a sticky!!

Squilliam
02-11-2013, 05:41 AM
Dave would you be able to explain how using too many stones would round edges?

NO ChoP!
02-11-2013, 08:09 AM
Stop at the 3k and test the edge on a tomato....this may also help you determine if its technique or polish that is the cause....

franzb69
02-11-2013, 09:05 AM
+1 with no chop.

tomato or paper.

=D

matt_g
02-11-2013, 09:11 AM
:spin chair:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqsbO1w8rXE:spin chair:

haha well that looked familiar. Thanks dave i'll try that out this week.

Dave Martell
02-11-2013, 10:35 AM
Dave would you be able to explain how using too many stones would round edges?


Each movement (when free handing) that we do offers a chance to slip or do less than precise movements that add up to a larger mess.

When free handing, most of us are kind of sloppy to start with and because of the lack of muscle memory obtained we're slipping and going from about 5 deg to 25 deg on each stroke. Sounds crazy but not that untrue.

Since many people start with something similar to King 1k (most unfortunately often recommended first stone) as a starter stone then we find ourselves making facets more than we're cutting a new crisp bevel. Our bevels look like a whole bunch of multi-facets vs a clean single facet - this is because we wobble and our stone doesn't cut fast enough. If we stop here at 1k though we might get lucky and still have a coarse enough edge (even if multi-faceted and somewhat rounded) to grab and cut food.

Should we continue to a finer grit stone then we'll be polishing the multi-faceted edge taking out the bite left from the coarser stone and now the knife won't cut much of anything.

But this isn't ever good enough for us so we get out the polishing stones to fix this and guess what we do? We make the edge even more slick and rounded.

The more stones we use the more we wobble and the higher the grit stones we use the more we polish and round the edge.

I recommend making sure that the first stone used in the series is coarse enough to cut faster than you can make a mess of the edge (from wobbling) and then to only use enough stones to go from this point to get the edge to where you want it. The fewer stones used the better and this is why getting stones that work together, allowing large jumps in grit size, is key.

Also worth noting is that you want to spend as little time as possible on each stone for all the above reasons and again getting stones that work together helps keep you from screwing things up. :)

Here's my tips to success...

1. Use a coarse enough stone as your first stone to allow cutting of a clean crisp single facet bevel. The stone should cut fast enough to keep your wobble from screwing up and creating the dreaded multi-faceted edge.

2. Use stones that allow big jumps to where you're looking to go to. If you can jump from 400/500x to 3k then yeah that's great.

3. Use as few stones as possible - less time on stones equals less wobble. using stones that (again) allow for this helps a lot.

4. Go no higher than 5k(ish) for double bevels. Singles are different - go as high as you like - maybe the deba would be best left at 3-5k though.

ThEoRy
02-11-2013, 10:39 AM
I think 8k is too high for a gyuto. About 5k then strop on diamond. Chromium is too smooth.

franzb69
02-11-2013, 10:40 AM
as what i have always hear in many things. k.i.s.s., keep it simple stupid.

=D

ayeung74
02-11-2013, 02:12 PM
Great advice...makes alot of sense to me.

cclin
02-11-2013, 02:12 PM
........ Singles are different - go as high as you like - maybe the deba would be best left at 3-5k though.

Dave, why higher grit better for Singles?? do you mean all ture Single bevels knives: Kiritsuke, Honesuki, Usuba, Yanagi except deba??

keithsaltydog
02-11-2013, 03:56 PM
Yes like Carbon SB yanagi can go higher because you want a polished edge for cutting sashimi & sushi topping.Deba tougher duty so no need high grits.

Dave what types of strops can you use the diamond spray on?

cclin
02-11-2013, 04:13 PM
Yes like Carbon SB yanagi can go higher because you want a polished edge for cutting sashimi & sushi topping.Deba tougher duty so no need high grits.

Dave what types of strops can you use the diamond spray on?

yap! how about Kiritsuke, Honesuki, Usuba?? I think they needs tooth edge to cut protein & veg.

I used bosa wood & felt pad for diamond spray !!

Dave Martell
02-11-2013, 04:30 PM
Yanagiba is what I had in mind when I typed that earlier, I should have clarified that, sorry for the confusion.


For diamond spray I like leather & felt.

stevenStefano
02-11-2013, 04:35 PM
I like chromium. I use 0.5 on leather. I have 1.0 diamond spray but I much prefer the chromium, I think it just has much more of an affect and brings dulling edges back much better than the diamond

rdpx
02-11-2013, 07:17 PM
Each movement (when free handing) that we do offers a chance to slip or do less than precise movements that add up to a larger mess.

When free handing, most of us are kind of sloppy to start with and because of the lack of muscle memory obtained we're slipping and going from about 5 deg to 25 deg on each stroke. Sounds crazy but not that untrue.

Since many people start with something similar to King 1k (most unfortunately often recommended first stone) as a starter stone then we find ourselves making facets more than we're cutting a new crisp bevel. Our bevels look like a whole bunch of multi-facets vs a clean single facet - this is because we wobble and our stone doesn't cut fast enough. If we stop here at 1k though we might get lucky and still have a coarse enough edge (even if multi-faceted and somewhat rounded) to grab and cut food.

Should we continue to a finer grit stone then we'll be polishing the multi-faceted edge taking out the bite left from the coarser stone and now the knife won't cut much of anything.

But this isn't ever good enough for us so we get out the polishing stones to fix this and guess what we do? We make the edge even more slick and rounded.

The more stones we use the more we wobble and the higher the grit stones we use the more we polish and round the edge.

I recommend making sure that the first stone used in the series is coarse enough to cut faster than you can make a mess of the edge (from wobbling) and then to only use enough stones to go from this point to get the edge to where you want it. The fewer stones used the better and this is why getting stones that work together, allowing large jumps in grit size, is key.

Also worth noting is that you want to spend as little time as possible on each stone for all the above reasons and again getting stones that work together helps keep you from screwing things up. :)

Here's my tips to success...

1. Use a coarse enough stone as your first stone to allow cutting of a clean crisp single facet bevel. The stone should cut fast enough to keep your wobble from screwing up and creating the dreaded multi-faceted edge.

2. Use stones that allow big jumps to where you're looking to go to. If you can jump from 400/500x to 3k then yeah that's great.

3. Use as few stones as possible - less time on stones equals less wobble. using stones that (again) allow for this helps a lot.

4. Go no higher than 5k(ish) for double bevels. Singles are different - go as high as you like - maybe the deba would be best left at 3-5k though.

This was very helpful, thanks Dave.

I have #240/1000/6000 and had been planning to start my first sharpen with the #1000. Maybe I should drop down to the #240?

stevenStefano
02-11-2013, 07:22 PM
I'd stick with the #1000 and see how that goes

rdpx
02-11-2013, 07:38 PM
I'd stick with the #1000 and see how that goes

Okay will do. I guess I can always drop down if its going nowhere.

[One more post SS you will have made the magic 1000!]

mpukas
02-11-2013, 07:38 PM
+1 to what SS just said

low/coarse grit stones take off the most metal and until you learn you can do the most damage the quickest

labor of love
02-11-2013, 07:45 PM
i finish my double bevel gyutos on a kitayama 8k. before the 8k my progression is usually either 500, 2000, 5k or 1200, 5k. either way, i feel my edge is quite improved from 5k to 8k. i can understand someone not having the interest to go past 5k, and i can understand using as few stones as necessary. but i do feel there is something to be gained by going alittle beyond 5-6k.
this thread has me rethinking my progression. i think ill just stop at sueriho rika then strop.

Dave Martell
02-11-2013, 08:04 PM
I have #240/1000/6000 and had been planning to start my first sharpen with the #1000. Maybe I should drop down to the #240?


240x is pretty aggressive to start with even for me. Also, most of these stones wear real fast which adds another variable that often leads to rounded edges.

Using your 1k to start on a new knife isn't going to get you where you need to go but it sure is a lot safer than that 240x.

rdpx
02-11-2013, 08:35 PM
240x is pretty aggressive to start with even for me. Also, most of these stones wear real fast which adds another variable that often leads to rounded edges.

Using your 1k to start on a new knife isn't going to get you where you need to go but it sure is a lot safer than that 240x.

Hmmm. So you think I need a stone between #240 and #1000?

Well I shall have a go with the #1000 and see if anything happens. Would #240 be too much even if I was very light and gentle with it, or will I just screw up the knife?

Thanks R

Dave Martell
02-11-2013, 08:39 PM
Hmmm. So you think I need a stone between #240 and #1000?

That would be my preference.




Well I shall have a go with the #1000 and see if anything happens. Would #240 be too much even if I was very light and gentle with it, or will I just screw up the knife?


I tell people that it's safe to use coarse stones if they also use their brains at the same time. What I mean is that if you can keep yourself from going nuts then yes it's OK to use a coarse stone but most people when new to sharpening can't control themselves. They want the results, go super quick, never stop to look and see what they're doing, spend too much time in one section, and don't flatten their stones often enough. If you can get yourself to slow down, stop and check what you're doing often, and keep your stones flat you will be OK.

BTW, I speak from personal experience when I talk about not engaging the brain. :D

rdpx
02-11-2013, 09:19 PM
I can get an #800 for a good price nearby, I wonder if that is too close to the #1000 to be worth getting?
I think I just need to have a go at this knife tomorrow, and then I will have a far better idea of whether I need to buy a new stone.
The #240 stone is getting very thin anyway, so I will probably need something else before too long.

ThEoRy
02-11-2013, 09:20 PM
Gesshin 400. But don't start with that yet. And yes 800 is too close to 1000.

tk59
02-11-2013, 10:13 PM
To get back to the original question, yes. Some steels are not worth refining (the edge) too much regardless of the application. Mostly it's some of the high chromium stuff that is problematic. One thing about sharpening quickly to avoid rounding: You don't build muscle memory without a lot of repetition.

Mike9
02-11-2013, 10:29 PM
If I have to establish a primary edge I use a Gesshin 400 then 1k then 6k then strop on cardboard then news paper. I have no desire to go higher in grit as I find it makes for a duller feeling edge.

If I'm thinning I'll start with a diamond plate then go to the 400 then upwards. I recently got a 240 green stone and a 3k that I'm going to try for protein use knives.

turbochef422
02-11-2013, 10:38 PM
I usually go with beston 500 then gesshin 1k and 5k then balsa strop. Although some knives I finish with the king 6000 instead and others I only go to a blue aoto 2k bc I feel it finishes more like a 3k or 4k. I know it quirky but I think I finally have a system that works for me.