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View Full Version : Question/Opinion from Salty Dog



ms4awd
05-09-2011, 10:28 AM
Hi Scott

i wud like ask 4 ur opinion thru PM but 4 some reason i am not allowed to PM in the site... Anyways i was just wondering if u could give me ur opinion on 3 knives that u have as i am in the market to possibly acquire one of these. Masamoto HOnyaki gyuto, Mizuno Honyaki Wa Gyuto and DX honyaki wagyuto... Just wanted to c how u wud compare each. Maybe u can initiate the PM if u are willing to give me ur opinion it wud be greatly appreciated. I was also considering a Gyuto from Stephan Fowler as he has recently responded to my inquiry, been really wanting a honyaki wa gyuto though. Thanks

Salty dog
05-09-2011, 10:39 AM
Big differences. Maybe TK can respond as well. I lent him the Masamoto and the blue dx Mizuno.

First, it's my understanding that the 240 Mizuno's being made now are thinner and lighter than the originals. (mine) The Mizuno is a beefy knife with a superb grind and polish. It can withstand a helluva a beating. A bit thick behind the edge but because of the grind it's still a great cutter.

The Masamoto is 50 grams lighter than my blue Mizuno. It's a cutting machine. Despite it's light weight it's a sturdy knife. It also runs long. The 240 is 263mm where as the Mizuno is 229mm.

If I just want to have fun cutting stuff up I grab the Masamoto. If I have a heavy day ahead of me, it will be the Mizuno.

ms4awd
05-09-2011, 10:48 AM
Thanks for the insight, how wud u rate the edge holidng of the masamoto honyaki? Is it typical w2, gets scary sharp then kind of falls off or does the honyaki forging make edge holding better? i have honyaki yanagi in w2 and it gets super sharp and holds the edge really well but maybe its because its main function is fish and hardly makes any hard impact on a board. As far as cutting style i use push or pull cut in technique i dont really pinch grip or rock having being trained by a japanese chef when i first started working proffesionaly. How wud u rate stephan fowlers mizu, i am inquiring about one from him also, seems to be a great alternative in the sense that i can have it done to my spcs as far as length and stuff and the handle would be with nicer wood which is a plus... what about the masamoto vs mizu in white? Thanks again

Salty dog
05-09-2011, 11:17 AM
The White honyaki has similar properties of regular white. Edge retention is improved and the edge is sturdy. I use it for squash without thinking twice. I haven't used the white Mizuno much because it was the larger of the two knives and I really like blue DX. If I could have the Masamoto in Mizuno's blue it would be perfect. Alas, I've tried to get Mizuno to make me a thin honyaki similar to Masamoto's but they either won't or can't.

Sounds to me you should be looking hard at the Masamoto. It's also long at 263mm as opposed to Mizuno's 229.

Stephan's Mizu holds an edge for a very long time but I'm having issues with the geometry, profile and handle on mine.

ms4awd
05-09-2011, 11:28 AM
what sort of geometry issues r u having with the mizu? is it the grind? or blade shape, how does the blade shape compare to the mizuno or masamoto... how is the balance of his mizu? i am talking to stephan about possibly a mizu in w2 also but using shigefusa or heiji blade shape as the basis... my first instinct was also the masamoto bec of the length, but koki informed me both mizuno are available again thats why i asked. also saw Jons teaser for blue 1 honyaki and thats intrigues me as well... going the custom route with stephan definitely will allow me to get a great deba on top of it as well as i do a ton of fish butchery, because of cost compared to the japanese honyakis, did either masamoto or mizuno ever mention if they are water quenched or oil quenched honyaki? thanks

Salty dog
05-09-2011, 11:45 AM
It's thin and relatively flat. Tall large blade. I knew all that going in. I wanted to check out a couple of his knives. The flexibility is an issue and I can feel it in the handle.

If he's going to be using different geometry with the W2 it would have great potential.

I really like the profile and handle on his other knife that I have. A 240 52100 with a hybrid handle. His machi's tend to be on the tall side making the handle tall.

EdipisReks
05-09-2011, 12:04 PM
i have a Mizuno hontranten 270 made in March of this year, and it's about 3mm at the spine above the heel, has a strong taper towards the edge and the tip. and isn't thick at all behind the edge. i haven't seen an older Mizuno, but i would say that you are correct that they have changed their geometry, if they used to be beefy knives.

Salty dog
05-09-2011, 12:08 PM
The honyaki is an anomaly. I have an older 240 that I was hoping the new knives would be similar to. (It is my mostly used knife) They were but the dimensions seemed almost double.

ms4awd
05-09-2011, 12:19 PM
thanks for feedback on the mizuno as i was leaning that route b4 talking to stephan, need more thought b4 deciding, is ur second knife from Stephan hav the same grind? when u said u cud feel the flex on the handle what exactly did u mean? is it from the blade being 2 thin and the machi and tang possibly thicker, like twisting when using the knife? thanks

EdipisReks
05-09-2011, 12:23 PM
The honyaki is an anomaly. I have an older 240 that I was hoping the new knives would be similar to. (It is my mostly used knife) They were but the dimensions seemed almost double.

are the honyakis made by the same smith?

Salty dog
05-09-2011, 12:26 PM
The machi and tang don't seem much shorter than the handle so there isn't a ton of wood on the top or bottom of the tang. The blade is thin where it enters the handle so when I'm giving it a good work out I can feel some flex and movement in the handle. I have found this on a knife from another maker as well.

The profile is much different on Stephan's other knife but the grind is similar.

tk59
05-09-2011, 01:02 PM
The Masamoto is a really nice knife in all respects but I especially like the profile. If I had to criticize it, I'd say the handle is smallish and generally unremarkable adn the tip strikes me as delicate. The Mizuno honayaki in blue is a veritable beast and nearly indestructible compared to some of the other highly regarded knives yet it performs like a much thinner knife. I think it's a combination of the polish and the grind. It was a pleasure to wield this knife. The only negative I can think of other than the way it cracks hard veggies due to thickness is the aesthetics of the handle. It just doesn't look right and the handle is again, nothing special although it's big and I liked that. The Mizuno has really made me rethink my attitude regarding thicker knives. With regard to Stephen's knives, his work is evolving rapidly, it seems. He clearly has some skill and knows his steel (His passaround blade made of W2 seems to love to take an incredibly fine edge.). If you can tell him exactly what you want, I wouldn't be surprised if his knife exceeded your expectations especially considering the price.

ms4awd
05-09-2011, 03:02 PM
Thanks for all the input... Tk how wud u compare ease of sharpening of the masamoto and mizuno? considering one is blue and the other white did u notice any difference in the effort it takes to sharpen? i have blue and white spred thru out what knives i have and ive never really had an issue except when sharpening my honyaki yanagi when it hit bone in a filet and it chipped. I tried to work the knife to remove the chip and after a session decided i cud live with it and will let the chip work its way off as i sharpen over time... so far ive put that knife to the stones maybe 6-8 times as it is not a daily use yanagi and im barely making a dent on the chip and the blade road is taking a while to even out as well b4 i can even think of putting any hamaguriba besides maintaining what was on ther already... how thick is Scots Mizuno if i may ask? would it compare to a shigefusa gyuto? in the sense that it seems thick at the handle and tapers well but in use it is actually acts thinner, im under the impression that heiji gyuto is the same way..

tk59
05-09-2011, 03:20 PM
Ease of sharpening: I'm not sure I'm the best one to ask since I love sharpening but the Masamoto was very easy to sharpen. I can't say I thought the Mizuno was difficult though. I didn't try to get rid of any chips though (there weren't any to work out). The burr I made on it was TINY.
Thickness: I haven't seen a Shigefusa gyuto but it is much thicker than my Shigefusa Nakiri and my 240 Heiji. It tapered down a lot but if I recall correctly, it was still at least as thick as the Heiji near the tip. The Heiji does cut great much like the Mizuno but I might still say that the Mizuno went through more easily. The grind on the Miz is really nice and makes up for a lot and the polish helps a lot as well. When I polish up the sides of other knives, the resistance dramatically decreases.

ms4awd
05-09-2011, 03:35 PM
Tk what heiji do u have? is it a swedish carbon or the semi stainless? how do those knives perform. i have a 150mm heiji ikasaki basically a petty yanagi and love the steel, i was also looking at a 270mm Heiji from Jon JKI but was a little worried because it seemed thick and ran larger than a 270mm,

Mattias504
05-09-2011, 04:01 PM
I have the Heiji carbon gyuto and its amazing. Its beefy but thin behind the edge. His grind he does is fantastic and the steel is very easy to sharpen. It seems to stay sharp long but I like to touch up my knives almost daily.(unless I'm lazy. good reason to have so many knives)

tk59
05-09-2011, 04:12 PM
I've only tried the semistainless. Edge-taking is excellent and retention might be the best I've tried for the type of edge I like to use. As Matt mentioned, the grind is excellent. I haven't had it too long but I can say that it is rapidly becoming my favorite non-laser-type gyuto. I still like my KonHD a lot though. I have absolutely nothing negative to say about the blades.

ms4awd
05-09-2011, 04:41 PM
Thanks for all the input guys, helps a lot but makes making a decision tougher :wink:

Eamon Burke
05-10-2011, 01:14 AM
I am flabbergasted that you can maintain the ability to type like that with such consistency. Is it possible to feel old in your 20s? Perhaps I'll try translating this thread tomorrow, it seems informative.

Jameson
05-10-2011, 01:33 AM
I cant understand the op he thinks he is texting i guess. I am very glad i went to hs and college before cellp hones and texting became prevalent... everyone makes typographical errors, not everyone creates their own language because they cannot spell. It is a scurge on the net.

ms4awd
05-10-2011, 09:18 AM
sorry to type my replies like im texting, ive been overseas the last couple months working on opening up my restaurant and out here the main method of communication is txt messages so u get used to typing that way in a hurry, when i first moved back down here i had no idea what the hell most of the txt i received said... u learn to adapt really fast when cell phone minutes cost a fortune its almost like half a dollar a minute out here, txting on the other hand is really cheap, its ridiculous... will try to keep the replies legible from now on

StephanFowler
05-10-2011, 10:23 AM
The machi and tang don't seem much shorter than the handle so there isn't a ton of wood on the top or bottom of the tang. The blade is thin where it enters the handle so when I'm giving it a good work out I can feel some flex and movement in the handle. I have found this on a knife from another maker as well.

The profile is much different on Stephan's other knife but the grind is similar.


I've actually had to seriously alter some techniques to get the blade as thin as I want and it's caused issues with the machi area, I think I'm getting it pretty well figured out though

handles are something I have ALWAYS struggled with as I have really big hands (and swing a 4Lb hammer for fun) so I don't register fatigue the way you guys would and I've been getting input from Dave and the passarounds to improve my handle shaping and sizes.

Salty dog
05-10-2011, 11:17 AM
The handle on the hybrid is nice.

SpikeC
05-10-2011, 12:55 PM
It is a scurge on the net.

scourge

Pensacola Tiger
05-10-2011, 01:53 PM
The handle on the hybrid is nice.

And I like the handles on the canarywood set I have, Stephan.

StephanFowler
05-10-2011, 02:09 PM
And I like the handles on the canarywood set I have, Stephan.

still waiting for some patina shots
:rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

:jumpy::jumpy:
:headbang::EDance2:

Mattias504
05-10-2011, 02:41 PM
scourge

I was about to say. You are not exactly the best speller and that wasn't the best put together post to criticize the way someone else types.

Eamon Burke
05-10-2011, 02:46 PM
sorry to type my replies like im texting, ive been overseas the last couple months working on opening up my restaurant and out here the main method of communication is txt messages so u get used to typing that way in a hurry, when i first moved back down here i had no idea what the hell most of the txt i received said... u learn to adapt really fast when cell phone minutes cost a fortune its almost like half a dollar a minute out here, txting on the other hand is really cheap, its ridiculous... will try to keep the replies legible from now on


No big deal really, I just thought I'd let you know. This really is an informative thread!

I would advise you talk to Stephan. Let him know exactly what you want the knife to do. Be demanding! He seems a type to love a challenge, and you can only make him better with your input. Plus he's American, as I am assuming you are, and keeping it domestic is always a plus to me.

ms4awd
05-10-2011, 06:00 PM
Yes as much as i love japanese knives i wud like to support american blade smiths and also up and coming knife makers but having variety is great as well. I am speaking with stephan about what i am looking for in a knife and i hav a feeling it will come out great. Im glad Scott and TK gave great input on the knives i was looking at and also scot for sharing his honest opinion on the mizu from stephan, i think that input will only make the knife i get even better designed...

Pensacola Tiger
05-13-2011, 02:45 PM
still waiting for some patina shots
:rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

:jumpy::jumpy:
:headbang::EDance2:

Stephan,

I had to wait for some decent light, but here's a few patina pics of the canarywood set:

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pensacola%20Tigers%20Knives/Fowler%20Petty/e8cc966f.jpg

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pensacola%20Tigers%20Knives/Fowler%20Petty/0a7c3364.jpg

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pensacola%20Tigers%20Knives/Fowler%20Gyuto/017da32f.jpg

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pensacola%20Tigers%20Knives/Fowler%20Gyuto/cf08e04a.jpg

Rick

StephanFowler
05-13-2011, 02:46 PM
Stephan,

I had to wait for some decent light, but here's a few patina pics of the canarywood set:

Rick

Awesome, thanks, I like how the 52100 gets a nice royal purple look to the patina