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View Full Version : Shopping again!!



MadMel
05-09-2011, 10:37 AM
Hello gonna have to trouble some of the more experienced nutters here to help me make some decisions again.

I've recently got myself a gyuto, a petty, a silicon carbide stone, 1000/3000 combination stone (given to me free lol)

Looking for a Suji, 270mm
price range about USD150
Gonna see quite a bit of use
Mainly for carving up meats like a porterhouse etc
Preferable stainless or clad
Looks don't matter, edge retention does

Please gimme some opinions :) and it would be best if you have used the knife and can vouch for it yourself :P

Also looking for a higher grit stone. Is Naniwa SS ok? I can only find Naniwa locally. All other brands have gotta be shipped. And what should the grain pogression go? Is it of to jump straight to a 10000? Or should I get a 5k-8k stone first?

Thanks in advance!

Cadillac J
05-09-2011, 12:38 PM
If you are just using for slicing/carving and want good edge retention, your best bet for that price is going to be JCK CarboNext no doubt.

I had the 270 CN and liked everything about it except the profile--wasn't flat enough for my general push-cutting needs, but would be a non-issue for a slicer.

tk59
05-09-2011, 12:58 PM
It is not okay to refer to people here as "nutters" unless you put a "k" in front of the word. What is your 1/3k combo stone? SS are great, imo although I've been using them in conjunction with the Gesshin line from JKI. More than likely, you don't want to go beyond a 5-6k first. The Suehiro Rika 5k seems to be the consensus best buy. I like it a lot myself but I do prefer Chosera or Gesshin since that one is a splash-n-go. For slicers, I have to say CN is probably best at that price but if you are gonna be just slicing meat, a Tojiro will be nearly as good and save you a chunk of change.

Rotary
05-09-2011, 01:18 PM
If you are just using for slicing/carving and want good edge retention, your best bet for that price is going to be JCK CarboNext no doubt.

I haven't regretted buying my CN Suji. I think it will fulfill your criteria nicely, though it's a semi-stainless. Mine has developed a bit of a patina, if that sort of thing bothers you.

Cadillac J
05-09-2011, 03:19 PM
a Tojiro will be nearly as good and save you a chunk of change.

TK, I agree the Tojiro is also another great option at this price point, but the CarboNext is only $20 more and has a better handle and fit/finish, plus it is a mono-steel versus cladded (if that is of any concern to Mel), and it also has better edge retention in my experience. Both are solid knives, but I would personally pay a bit extra for differentiating characteristics of the CN.

tk59
05-09-2011, 04:38 PM
$20? Hmm. I thought Tojiros were cheaper than that. I have to agree there.

Kyle
05-09-2011, 04:52 PM
I haven't regretted buying my CN Suji. I think it will fulfill your criteria nicely, though it's a semi-stainless. Mine has developed a bit of a patina, if that sort of thing bothers you.

I'm thinking about getting a CN suji for my dad. He loves my knives, but I have a hard time convincing him that all the extra care that carbon requires is worth it. Will a CN suji survive sitting on a cutting board after slicing raw meat for half an hour or will it end up a rusty mess? Patina is fine, but if he has to clean up rust all the time he won't use it. I might end up just getting him a Fujiwara or Tojiro stainless suji instead, but if the CN fairly rust resistant I can probably convince him to give it the extra care it deserves.

Lefty
05-09-2011, 08:19 PM
I'd go Fujiwara for your dad. I'm sure it would be an upgrade, it has a very nice profile and the price is amazing.
Does anyone know if the FKM comes in lh? I'm pretty sure t doesn't....

kalaeb
05-09-2011, 08:34 PM
I don't think you will have many issues with rust but it certainly has a capacity too as does any knife. I have never had any with mine. Just tell your dad it is as easy as a quick wipe to take care of it, he does not have to completly wash it directly after each use. Although the knife will develope a dull gray patina, not the sparkly stainless shine most people are use too. I would vote cn over tojiro in fit and finish as well as edge retention.

MadMel
05-09-2011, 11:51 PM
Firstly, SORRY!! for the nutter :P forgot the k in front.

How's the Fujiwara FKM compared to the CN? I'll be using it really often and during service, it's gonna be slicing none stop. Will there be any issues with rust/odour transference?
How about the stones?
The combination stone is from Naniwa, here's the link to it:
http://www.fine-tools.com/naniwa-combination-stone.html
Is a 5K Suehiro needed before I go on to a 8K or 10K? That's cause I don't wanna get too many stones now and have to ship them to Aussie when I go there for studies next year.

kalaeb
05-10-2011, 01:02 AM
I have had zero issues with rust/odor transferance on the CN. In my experiance the edge on the CN last longer than on the FKM.

Regarding stones, why not stop at the Rika 5k? I am not any sort of award winning chef, but on my work knives I use a 1200, the rika 5k, then strop on CO loaded balsa. Really no need to go to 10k.

At home on the other hand, taking it to the high grit stones is just plain fun.

Seb
05-10-2011, 07:17 AM
I know you said stainless but slicing meat with carbon is so much fun! Get the Fujiwara FKH!

Lefty
05-10-2011, 07:33 AM
Once again, I'm going to side with Seb.
I heart the FKHs!

Seb
05-10-2011, 07:54 AM
Thanks, mate. I get such a kick from that blue/rainbow meat patina!

OP, you can just wipe it down and forget about it. If rust appears, just sand it off with Flitz or a fine abrasive. Then again, I have never seen rust on either of my FKHs - can't say the same for my other (purer) carbons - just had to remove some tiny specks from my Masamoto HC using Simichrome and paper towel. Also, the other good news is that these simple SK4 carbon steel knives will take a lot of abuse and laugh - mine fly straight through small bones and gristle like they're not even there - if you run into something that's too hard, it will barely ding. These things are almost impossible to chip - they usually roll or wave.

Imo, cheap carbon really is the very best available option for raw meat slicing.

Lefty
05-10-2011, 08:03 AM
Have you ever tried autosol? I wanted to try it out on my FKH and swede.
Sorry to change the subject...

MadMel
05-10-2011, 10:07 AM
It's alrite lefty. I don't mind :)
Seb: I don't know how will a slicer with a patina fare with the food authorities here, especially as the Suji will be handling cooked meats for presentation. They'r kinda strict with the HACCP stuff and all. But I'm kinda keen on it, just to add to the collection lol.
I also would like to know the stones that you guys use. Just as a guide to building up my own stuff.

Citizen Snips
05-10-2011, 10:41 AM
i would go for the carbon because if you do slice a lot of proteins, your patina will be much more subtle and not as fast as if you cut up two cases of tomatoes or something with much more acid. my sweedish carbon misono suji got a lot of protein work and got a wonderful looking patina but when i took it off with BKF and used it for prep which included mostly vegetables, it got a dark black patina and stained food and had the odor quite a bit more.

as far as stones go i use different stones depending on the knife but my main set is:
beston 500
blue aoto 2k
arashiyama 6k

i also have a bester 1200, suehiro rika 5k and a kitayama 8k that i use only for finishing the kitayama.

my opinion would be get something in the 5k or 6k range. SS are great but might be a little advanced. my advice is to learn how to use that 1k/3k stone first and build from there. sharpening is more about the technique and there is no point spending a bunch of money and worrying about stones until you practice a bit :D

Aphex
05-10-2011, 10:57 AM
I would allways go with carbon when slicing meat. The Fujiwara FKH (which i own) is a fantastic value and performing slicer and would reccomend it highly.

As far as stones go, i would finish with the suehiro 6k http://www.fine-tools.com/suehiro-stones.html Theres really no need for 10k stones in a pro kitchen.

MadMel
05-10-2011, 11:19 AM
Snips:
Yeah I agree that SS are maybe outta my league right now. Already scratched up my Hiro pretty bad lol. How's the Arayashima working for you?

Aphex
I do agree that a 10k stone is not a need in a pro kitchen haha the only one we have in the kitchen is a mid grit silicon carbide one that the chef bought for general use. Its just in there u know for some feedback purposes.

Between a FKH and a CN, which would you guys choose?

Aphex
05-10-2011, 11:24 AM
For a sujihiki, i would go with the FKH. I think it has a better profile than the CN, it gets sharper than the CN and it's cheaper than the CN.

Also, with the money you save, you can put it towards a new stone.

Rotary
05-10-2011, 01:03 PM
I'm thinking about getting a CN suji for my dad. He loves my knives, but I have a hard time convincing him that all the extra care that carbon requires is worth it. Will a CN suji survive sitting on a cutting board after slicing raw meat for half an hour or will it end up a rusty mess? Patina is fine, but if he has to clean up rust all the time he won't use it. I might end up just getting him a Fujiwara or Tojiro stainless suji instead, but if the CN fairly rust resistant I can probably convince him to give it the extra care it deserves.

The patina on mine resulted from cutting onions on and off over about a forty five minute period, without rinsing or wiping (I'm usually a lot more diligent, but it was Easter and I had a million things going on at once). I was too lazy/preoccupied to walk across the kitchen and grab a gyuto. The patina is really very mild. I've never heard that the CN's were prone to rust at the drop of a hat, and I'd be surprised if it developed rust after a half hour of cutting proteins.

Cadillac J
05-10-2011, 03:44 PM
For a sujihiki, i would go with the FKH [...] it gets sharper than the CN and it's cheaper than the CN.

I personally don't agree with this comment.

Fuijwaras are sweet (had 2-FKHs and 2-FKMs) and I agree with the better profiles on them..but the CarboNext can take a wicked edge and it will also hold it longer (which I thought was a priority for Mel too)

Lefty
05-10-2011, 03:53 PM
I'm torn.
If it's just used for slicing, then profile won't matter quite as much, but if it will become a bit of a line knife/ multi-tasker, I would say a flatter edge will be more beneficial. In which case, I'd go FKH.

kalaeb
05-10-2011, 04:22 PM
I am going to agree with Caddy. The FKH, although a good knife does not hold its edge as long as the CN. I would still have to stick with the CN on this one.

I am personally only 50% satisfied with the fit and finish on my Fuji's (one good, one bad), but the fit and finish on the CN was solid.

Lefty
05-10-2011, 04:49 PM
Just get a Pierre custom. Problem solved! ;)

Lefty
05-10-2011, 04:52 PM
I hate to drag another person into this, but I have a feeling Pen Tiger would have some useful input.
Another option might be to contact jon and ask about the kanemasa sujis. A member at my other favorite forum just got one and it looks SWEET!
Oh wait, you're in Singapore, right? I'm not sure what shipping would be like....

Customfan
05-10-2011, 04:55 PM
:biggrin2:Photos if you please!!!

Lefty
05-10-2011, 05:02 PM
I wish I could, but the other site is down for some upgrades....

Citizen Snips
05-10-2011, 07:34 PM
Snips:
Yeah I agree that SS are maybe outta my league right now. Already scratched up my Hiro pretty bad lol. How's the Arayashima working for you?


i wouldn't say that they are out of anyones league, just that they may be a bit more advanced and that a bit of practice may be in order before you get further. another reason would be maybe you enjoy using only one stone (quite a few people here and where i work do this) and if that works for you, then great. dont worry about the scratches (lol you should see my hiromoto 240mm AS), they show you are learning AND that you sharpen your own knives which is more than most people. the aesthetics are not as important (to me at least) than the end result. you will get there and hopefully you get the stones and knives you want along the way!!

as far as the arashiyama goes, i love it for my finishing stone. it leaves a wonderful polish but also provides some feeling and edginess (cannot believe that is actually a word). it does everything a finishing stone should do for a double bevel gyuto. it also provides a great precursor for the kitayama on my yanagiba and a works really well following the blue aoto 2k. i feel the aoto and arashiyama work great together.

Lefty
05-10-2011, 10:31 PM
My mistake! It is a kanetsune...it's still SWEET! haha.
http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?10479-kanetsune-300-sujihiki

MadMel
05-10-2011, 11:15 PM
Lefty:
A pierre would be way over my budget. Haha. Prolly in another 2 or 3 years.
Shipping for knives is prolly around the 25~30 USD mark lol.
Could you link directly to the picture? Can't access it unless I'm a member there and for some reason, my e-mail is banned over there so I can't register -_-"
Wouldn't mind getting pen tiger in here too haha. More opinions are always welcome, especially for some1 as inexperience as me :)

Snips:
Thanks for the encouragement :) appreciate it. Prolly would get myself the arashimaya or however you spell it.
Yeah the aesthetics are not the priority for me cos they'r gonna get some scratches on them sooner or later lol. Performance over looks for me. But just wondering if I'm doing something wrong somewhere haha.

Caddy:
Yeah edge retention is kinda at the top of the list of any knife I'll be buying cos they'r gonna be seeing heavy use. What angles do you use to sharpen your CN? Just like to know how low it can go before the edge starts 'breaking off'. And it's not gonna be a multi tasker. It's gonna sit on a board a slice up pork loins and steaks for presentation.

Lefty
05-10-2011, 11:32 PM
Here's the pic! :)
Thanks James and Jon!
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc399/Lefty-T/05417977.jpg

MadMel
05-11-2011, 08:32 AM
Nice!! I prefer a straighter blade profile on my suji tho, something more in line with the sujis that marko got from yoshikane. Maybe its just that I'm more used to it that way haha. Is the profile of the CN and Fuji like the one above?

Cadillac J
05-11-2011, 08:39 AM
Caddy:
What angles do you use to sharpen your CN? Just like to know how low it can go before the edge starts 'breaking off'. And it's not gonna be a multi tasker. It's gonna sit on a board a slice up pork loins and steaks for presentation.

I can only estimate angles, so maybe it is better to tell you approximately how far the spine is from the stones. I would estimate my CN gyuto to have about 10-ish degrees per side with a 80/20 assym (spine is about 3-4mm off the stone). My gyuto has held up really well on my end grain boards without any type of issues...so I imagine you would be even better off if only using suji for slicing.

Pensacola Tiger
05-11-2011, 08:52 AM
I hate to drag another person into this, but I have a feeling Pen Tiger would have some useful input.
Another option might be to contact jon and ask about the kanemasa sujis. A member at my other favorite forum just got one and it looks SWEET!
Oh wait, you're in Singapore, right? I'm not sure what shipping would be like....

It's hard not to say to go for the CarboNext. All the advantages of carbon, without the need for obsessive care.

MadMel
05-11-2011, 10:27 AM
I can only estimate angles, so maybe it is better to tell you approximately how far the spine is from the stones. I would estimate my CN gyuto to have about 10-ish degrees per side with a 80/20 assym (spine is about 3-4mm off the stone). My gyuto has held up really well on my end grain boards without any type of issues...so I imagine you would be even better off if only using suji for slicing.

Thanks :)That gives me a general idea. We don't use end grain boards unfortunately.. We have gotta use colour coded plastic boards. Is there a thread on assimytric bevels here somewhere? I would like to know basically what it means and how to maintain it while sharpening lol.

Lefty
05-11-2011, 10:41 AM
Asymmetry is tough to explain.
I had a conversation about it a few days ago with a pretty smart dude, and it depends on whether or not the knife is ground asymmetrically, or if the edge is maintained asymmetrically.
Basically, the advantage is the sliced portion pushes away from the other portion of what you are slicing and it allows for a 'straighter' cut. You can get a more acute angle with less chance of chipping because there is more material directly behind the edge itself.
To make it simple...for maintainence purposes, if you have an asymmetrical bevel, sharpen the knife basically the same as always, by following the current angle (on each side). Make sure you raise a burr, flip the knife and do the same o the other side. Repeat as normal. Deburr as normal.
In theory, your edge shoulders will move up at the same rate as one another, if you are sharpening properly.
In other words, don't sweat asymmetry too much. :)

MadMel
05-11-2011, 10:47 AM
Ahh. That's a great thing to hear haha. Man I was looking around and saw that Marko had these great looking sujis from yoshikane that he's gonna be selling haha. REALLY tempted to wait for those..

Lefty
05-11-2011, 10:49 AM
What size gyuto did you get? A 240, right?
If so, wait it out. You can slice effectively enough with it, until you find the right suji.
That's what I'm doing!

MadMel
05-11-2011, 11:02 AM
What size gyuto did you get? A 240, right?
If so, wait it out. You can slice effectively enough with it, until you find the right suji.
That's what I'm doing!

Yeah a 240 alright. A little on the longish side for my use at home: I have a seriously small kitchen which equals small work space lol.
Maybe I'll just try looking for a nice 210 gyuto to use at home haha. Ne1 has a used one to sell?

Did you see the ones Marko posted on his sub-forum thread? they look NICE haha. waiting on the prices.

Lefty
05-11-2011, 11:05 AM
You'll never get mine! I love that knife! :D
If it is seriously tight, a 180 petty would be nice! Yes, I am the devil! Haha

Cadillac J
05-11-2011, 11:13 AM
In other words, don't sweat asymmetry too much. :)

This, this...this.

I don't strive for any type of specific asymmetry when sharpening, it's just a result of the natural grind...just start sharpening until you get a burr, then flip over and do again.

MadMel
05-11-2011, 11:13 AM
Haha. Prolly looking for a really nice one cos home use=more TLC. A 180 petty is a little on the short side tho I can't wrap my head around that lol. Maybe get a good parer too haha.