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rdpx
02-19-2013, 09:34 PM
I have been idly trying to convince myself that I need a sujihiki knife, and I probably could manage without one, but I also may well end up buying one soon as I seem to have got the bug.

So if I do, I can't really justify spending much, and have been looking at the Fujiwara FKM, FKH and CarboNext.

I just got a CarboNext 210 Gyuto, and so it might be nice to try something different. Also the other two keep me under $100, which is also very nice for my bank account. I think the FKH is probably not right either as so many threads seem to say that this knife reacts badly smell/taste wise with a lot of food, and that this persists for a few months. If I can be convinced that I should just get a second CarboNext because it is just way better I could maybe swallow that, but I am guessing that the price difference (FKM = $95 CN=$146 - delivered)

So that kind of leaves me with the FKM 270mm Sujihiki.

So I have a couple of questions.....

1. Am I right to write off the FKM?
2. What are opinions on the FKH?
3. Should I just throw caution to the wind and get a 300mm CarboNext for $161?


And then I came across this knife, on **clearance** from a UK seller for £66 delivered ($103)

TOJIRO "ECO" 27cm SLICING KNIFE (http://www.millyskitchenstore.co.uk/EcobyTojiroKnives27cmSlicingKnife-Product-15930.html)

Now as far as I can tell that is a Tojiro DP 270mm sujihiki, at a price CHEAPER than I could get it from a US dealer, before shipping.

Is there a catch here? [a UK seller CHEAPER than USA??????? someone wake me up!!!]

Any views on whether it actually is the DP, and also whether the DPs are any good?


I am justifying this by saying I want it to slice meat with (roasts, hams etc) but would probably end up just playing with it as much as I can, switching between it and my 210 CN.... I basically just want to buy another knife to sharpen and play with....

Any advice on the FKM, FKH, vs CN and also on the DP and whether indeed this is DP would be most welcome.....


Thanks

Robert
:eyebrow:

knyfeknerd
02-19-2013, 09:54 PM
The pic looks like a DP. I would usually comment on how much I have loved my DP's, but I can't say with conviction that this one is made as good as the old ones. The "eco-handle" is really throwing me off, and I don't know if manufacturing and QC is what it used to be.
I totally understand your wanting to buy, buy, buy!!! You've been bitten by the bug!
Only recently have I been able to stop myself.
$103 sounds like a decent deal to me!

franzb69
02-19-2013, 10:03 PM
tojiro is a great intro to j-knives, but then you kinda already had that intro with a better knife. it's a notch below the carbonext in performance....so you might wanna consider something a little better as you might feel that it is a lesser knife. although a great knife especially for the price, it will feel lesser in performance.

i'd suggest something better. but it really is up to you. =D

like a carbon clad in stainless, or something stainless/sanmai and stainless but in better steel.

chinacats
02-19-2013, 10:29 PM
Why not try a carbon this time around? Once you get some patina the smells will go away, and if you are bothered too much then you could always just force a patina.

joetbn
02-20-2013, 02:58 AM
Why not try a carbon this time around? Once you get some patina the smells will go away, and if you are bothered too much then you could always just force a patina.

http://japanesechefsknife.com/FKHSeries.html#FKH%20Sujihiki

I got the FKH a while ago, same situation, I wanted a suji but didn't use it often enough to justify spending a lot on it. The FKH is great, fit and finish on the handle was good, the OTB edge wasn't great, but it's super easy to sharpen and once you do it holds an edge well.. Pretty reactive, but I only use it on proteins so it got a really nice blueish patina quickly and is very easy to maintain now. The only thing I would upgrade it to would be a Hiro AS, but at almost three times the price I don't use it often enough. (but some day I will anyway)

franzb69
02-20-2013, 03:00 AM
either FKH or FKM will do the trick. +1

Benuser
02-20-2013, 04:02 AM
http://japanesechefsknife.com/FKHSeries.html#FKH%20Sujihiki

I got the FKH a while ago, same situation, I wanted a suji but didn't use it often enough to justify spending a lot on it. The FKH is great, fit and finish on the handle was good, the OTB edge wasn't great, but it's super easy to sharpen and once you do it holds an edge well.. Pretty reactive, but I only use it on proteins so it got a really nice blueish patina quickly and is very easy to maintain now. The only thing I would upgrade it to would be a Hiro AS, but at almost three times the price I don't use it often enough. (but some day I will anyway)
Couldn't agree more. My FKH sujihiki, as all carbons, has calmed down after about a year with a forced patina. Some reports suggest that with backing soda and no forced patina you may get the same result much faster.

rdpx
02-20-2013, 09:26 AM
My FKH sujihiki, as all carbons, has calmed down after about a year......

A year!!!!

You see this is what makes me hesitate.
There seems to be a lot of love for these knives though.

Benuser
02-20-2013, 09:42 AM
A year!!!!

It may take much longer to master the moderate VG-10 by Tojiro.

franzb69
02-20-2013, 09:46 AM
a year seems like a reasonable amount of time. besides, it's a knife that doesn't really get a lot of use so YMMV (your mileage may vary).

love for them because of their bang for their buck! =D

different carbon steels when it comes to reactivity also vary. and you can always force a patina so you can minimize the problem.

but if that is putting you off of carbon blades, then one that's cladded in stainless steel will also help minimize your worry and maintenance.



yeah, VG-10 is a finicky steel when it's not done right. heat treating that is. tojiro's heat treat isn't as bad as shun's i think. i bought my mom a 4inch shun santoku, not that she's ever used it though. lol. she's afraid coz it's so darn sharp, but then so are all my knives compared to what's at home.

rdpx
02-20-2013, 09:59 AM
Ok - so what I am hearing, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that I should steer clear of the Tojiro DP that I linked to?

On top of that, you are saying that the FKH is a good knife.

I have no problem with carbon (in fact I quite like the idea of carbon) it's just that whenever I find a thread where the FKHs are discussed a lot of people talk about this taste/smell issue, which is not something that I see being mentioned so much when discussing most carbon knives. I have no issue with having to take care of a carbon knife, and the patina etc, and all that goes with a carbon, but I see warning bells whenever this particular carbon has been mentioned.... I do have a friendly butcher round the corner who if asked nicely would probabaly give me a bag of blood to soak it in after all....

As I mentioned in the OP, I can't really justify spending a lot on this knife which is why I am looking at the FKH or FKM. I guess I could push it up to a CarboNext maybe?


There seems to have been no great love for the FKM, or will I find that a let down compared to my CN?

EdipisReks
02-20-2013, 10:04 AM
there is nothing wrong with the Tojiro DP you linked. the "eco wood" is probably the "pakka wood" that they have been using forever.

Timthebeaver
02-20-2013, 10:07 AM
I have no problem with carbon (in fact I quite like the idea of carbon) it's just that whenever I find a thread where the FKHs are discussed a lot of people talk about this taste/smell issue, which is not something that I see being mentioned so much when discussing most carbon knives. I have no issue with having to take care of a carbon knife, and the patina etc, and all that goes with a carbon, but I see warning bells whenever this particular carbon has been mentioned.... I do have a friendly butcher round the corner who if asked nicely would probabaly give me a bag of blood to soak it in after all....


The FKH is SK-4 steel. SK steel is made by Hitachi, and is a cheaper, lower purity (higher sulfur and phosphorus content) simple carbon steel than the usual suspects (White, Blue, even Yellow). It is generally accepted that lower purity steel = more reactivity problems.

Forcing a patina is easy and will attenuate the reactivity significantly.

franzb69
02-20-2013, 10:19 AM
i have a tojiro DP 240 gyuto, it's not a bad knife, but i really really really prefer carbons at this point. =D

and once you've tasted carbon steel, the only stainless steel that you'd wanna try out are the better ones. like AEB-L for example.... many of the knife makers on here use them and love it. and since you have a semi stainless, that's pretty much as close as you can get to owning a carbon steel knife.

I would rather have ten tojiro DP knives than any VG-10 knife from shun. only shun knife i'd want is that kiritsuke style knife in aogami cladded in stainless. =D

SK4 is the japanese equivalent to 1090 carbon steel which is a good carbon steel in my opinion. the closest thing i have that's 1090 is an old hickory 10" chef's knife that's made with 1095 carbon steel. and i quite love it.

mine is vintage so there's an established patina on there when i got it and never took it off. just washed it down and cleaned it up with light passes of BKF and baking soda then a light soaping and water. this was my first carbon steel knife. and it opened my eyes to carbon steel! not necessarily my first carbon steel item, i've had a carbon steel tailor's shears for 6 years before this.

but the edge after sharpening did get reactive with garlic and onions, reaction to sulfur to said ingredients. cut onions and garlic turned grey where the cut was made. but after a few more cuts and a few more onions that went away.

my old hickory is quite possibly softer than FKH so it will be a better knife than my vintage.

nothing to worry about.

and since the FKH knives (60rc) are actually harder on the rockwell scale than the FKM (58rc), they will be sharper and maintain a better edge, and possibly keep a steeper edge compared to FKM.

franzb69
02-20-2013, 10:41 AM
the sequence of what i wrote is messed up. lol. lemme correct this:


but the edge after sharpening did get reactive with garlic and onions, reaction to sulfur to said ingredients. cut onions and garlic turned grey where the cut was made. but after a few more cuts and a few more onions that went away.

nothing to worry about.

my old hickory is quite possibly softer than FKH so it will be a better knife than my vintage.

and since the FKH knives (60rc) are actually harder on the rockwell scale than the FKM (58rc), they will be sharper and maintain a better edge, and possibly keep a steeper edge compared to FKM.

there ya go

TB_London
02-20-2013, 11:01 AM
either FKH or FKM will do the trick. +1

Have you got personal experience of either?


@RDPX if you want to see if you'll use a suji I could lend you Hattori HD 270 in Vg10, might give you an idea of size and broadly what vg10 is like to sharpen.
Re the tojiro it's hard to find much in that price range and length in the UK, never used one though.

franzb69
02-20-2013, 11:06 AM
Have you got personal experience of either?

no sir, i haven't.

i'd imagine that the FKH would behave like my old hickory, so in a sense i have an idea? since 1095 and 1090 is quite similar. i do understand that it's not just the steel that makes the knife and all that.

with the FKM i've read on a few forums and a quite a bit of threads that they all quite like this line of knives, but only as an introduction to j-knives.

rdpx
02-20-2013, 11:21 AM
@RDPX if you want to see if you'll use a suji I could lend you Hattori HD 270 in Vg10, might give you an idea of size and broadly what vg10 is like to sharpen.

Wow, you mean you would actually be happy for me to hack your $280 knife to death on my broken old stones? ;)
That is a very kind offer and I will have a think about it. Downside might be that I might decide that I won't use it, so that will be a knife that I won't buy, which would be a tragedy. Also it might push my desire up into a knife that I can't really justify the expense of! Upside would be that I may love it, and think I would like an even longer one, so just get a 300mmm CN! I considered the HD for my gyuto purchase, but overwhelming support for the CarboNext won the argument.

I do like to cook roast beef and hams every now and then, so I guess the excuse for this knife would be that it would be better to slice such things with a suji than with my 210 gyuto.

The bottom line is that I don't really NEED a suji, I just seem to have got a little into browsing knives at the moment, and want to buy another one! I get the feeling I am amongst friends in that respect.


Re the tojiro it's hard to find much in that price range and length in the UK, never used one though.

Well that was why I asked about it! It seems that webshop has a bucketload of them that they haven't sold, so they are discounting them to a level where it is actually possible to buy a japanese knife for a fair price in the UK, which seemed too good to be true. It would still be a couple of quid more than an FKH or FKM though, which is why I asked if they were any good.


with the FKM i've read on a few forums and a quite a bit of threads that they all quite like this line of knives, but only as an introduction to j-knives.

Thanks Franz - I think one of the big issues for me is that because I now have a CarboNext, I would not want to get a knife that was going to be disappointing when compared to that. Part of me thinks I should maybe just stump up the extra few bucks and get a CN suji, but another part of me thinks it is boring to get the same kind of knife! Leaning heavily towards the FKM, mainly because it is SO DARN CHEAP, and seems to have a good rep for its price. I wonder if there is anyone out there who has a CN and an FKM and could say how they feel about them both?

mhlee
02-20-2013, 11:53 AM
tojiro is a great intro to j-knives, but then you kinda already had that intro with a better knife. it's a notch below the carbonext in performance....so you might wanna consider something a little better as you might feel that it is a lesser knife. although a great knife especially for the price, it will feel lesser in performance.

i'd suggest something better. but it really is up to you. =D

like a carbon clad in stainless, or something stainless/sanmai and stainless but in better steel.

Have you directly compared a CarboNext to a DP?

mhlee
02-20-2013, 12:14 PM
I would buy it if you're interested in trying it out. You'll likely be able to sell it here for a slight loss since it's at such a good price to start. It's only nominally cheaper here in the US.

stevenStefano
02-20-2013, 12:29 PM
I remember emailing that place and asking them if those knives are the DP line and they basically didn't know. It's a good price for UK vendors. The DPs ain't bad, performance wise it won't match the Carbonext though. I'd borrow Tom's Hattori and see how you like it. Something to note is that Hattori's VG10 is quite a bit better than most others. Maybe you'll like it so much you'll get one

K-Fed
02-20-2013, 12:41 PM
The fkm suji isn't a bad knife by any means. If you're hesitant about carbon I think it's a great way to get you're feet wet. I bought one for a co-worker as a christmas gift and while the edge ootb was't spectacular they sharpen up very nicely and hold it pretty darn well. The knife I gifted has cut hundreds of lbs. of fish and will probably just bring my stones with me tonight to work and sharpen it up for him tonight whether he thinks it needs it or not. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the fkm as a first suji. Great knife for the price. I think unless you're cutting sashimi with you're suji taking a slightly steeper angle at the cost of reactivity is overrated. Just my humble opinion.

rdm_magic
02-20-2013, 12:55 PM
FWIW, those knives are discounted in the same way many knives are IE they have never been at the full price. I saw them around when they were first listed and considered it, but they were always 'clearance' stock.

My opinion would be that if you can afford the CN, and think that you want a suji, get it. At worst you'll regret it until next payday.

E: They have actually sold quite a few since they first got listed. The range of 'ecos' they used to have was much bigger. I also asked them if it was the DP. They were unsure. I asked Mark, and he seemed to think they were the same range.

rdpx
02-20-2013, 01:13 PM
I would buy it if you're interested in trying it out. You'll likely be able to sell it here for a slight loss since it's at such a good price to start. It's only nominally cheaper here in the US.

Am interested in getting a suji, but not trying out that particular one per se...


I'd borrow Tom's Hattori and see how you like it. ... . Maybe you'll like it so much you'll get one

Well, that is precisely why I might not take him up on it!


The fkm suji isn't a bad knife by any means. If you're hesitant about carbon I think it's a great way to get you're feet wet. I bought one for a co-worker as a christmas gift and while the edge ootb was't spectacular they sharpen up very nicely and hold it pretty darn well. The knife I gifted has cut hundreds of lbs. of fish and will probably just bring my stones with me tonight to work and sharpen it up for him tonight whether he thinks it needs it or not. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the fkm as a first suji. Great knife for the price. I think unless you're cutting sashimi with you're suji taking a slightly steeper angle at the cost of reactivity is overrated. Just my humble opinion.

Not hesitant about carbon by any means, just the FKH carbon. I would actually LIKE a carbon I think as it seems like a more "interactive" kind of material, as it were.
Someone earlier said the FKH was made from SK-4, so I googled that and found this (on jknives.com), which doesn't exactly inspire confidence:

"SK4 - Low grade steel, mainly due to impurities. Used mainly in hand tools like axes and hammers. Can be found in cheap kitchen knives as well"


FWIW, those knives are discounted in the same way many knives are IE they have never been at the full price. I saw them around when they were first listed and considered it, but they were always 'clearance' stock.

Whatever the dumb "discount" nonsense may be, it is fact that the price is basically the same as USA that caught my attention. They don't seem like a store that would have much of a clue about specialist stiff though, judging from the listings.

Robert

Paradox
02-20-2013, 01:56 PM
My first two J-knives were Tojiro DP. There is nothing wrong with them by any means. Because of the price point it seems like a great place for a lot of folks to start down the j-knife road? I out grew them pretty quickly, but I am a dork who really runs with the whole "if a little is good then a lot will be much better" philosophy. I see no reason that the DP in this role won't meet or exceed your expectations? How often will it really be used? Once a month seems like a stretch for me anyway. The only roasts I do more than that that are chickens and the suji isn't really a chicken knife.

I'm sure the Tojiro will get it done for you. But if you just "know" that you'll want something "better" then it's just a matter of getting to where you are OK with spending the extra cash. Buy once, cry once so to speak? ;)

mhlee
02-20-2013, 03:19 PM
I've always believed that it's better to buy something nice first, rather than buying something that I would be okay with and trying to upgrade. Although it's been rather easy to buy and resell my knives here, I do see that other knives can take a while to be sold.

From what I've observed, if you buy something inexpensive that you want to upgrade from, it's not as difficult as to sell cheaper knives because you can only lose so much money on them. So, if you're interested in just trying a suji, buy a cheap one that's basically what you're looking for, whether it's stainless or carbon, wa or western. The steels should all be decent, but nothing special and, as I've been constantly reminded by others more knowledgeable than me, the treatment of the steel means a lot more than just looking at the type of steel.

So, buying an inexpensive suji but good quality one is probably a fine strategy as long as you're ok with taking a little hit on your return to sell it if you're not happy with it. But, I don't really understand why you wouldn't want to try a good suji right off the bat. At least you'll have a point of comparison and you don't have to buy it immediately. You'll spend more money out of pocket if you buy a cheap one and don't like it and are forced to sell it. (No money spent to try one.) If you're worried about handling it, just ask the owner (who was gracious enough to offer) to put an edge on it and don't sharpen it yourself. Use soft sponges (no scrubbing pads to clean it) and baby it. But, use it once and you'll probably know if you're a suji kind of person.

rdpx
02-20-2013, 03:24 PM
I'm sure the Tojiro will get it done for you. But if you just "know" that you'll want something "better" then it's just a matter of getting to where you are OK with spending the extra cash. Buy once, cry once so to speak? ;)

Yes I think you are right in all you say Paradox!
Choice at that price point is bewteen DP/FKM/FKH - so although DP will be fine, would I be happier with one of the others?
I was just having a browse on JKI as it struck me that I have family in California and they are coming over in 3 weeks, so could avoid all post/import worries... (but I guess there is 9% tax for california buyers?)

I saw the Gesshin Uraku 270mm suji, which I could maybe just blow out on, but it is showing as OUT OF STOCK... Then I saw the Gesshin Ginga [white#2], and realise I am getting in over my wallet... I do love those wa handles though...

I have also seen this knife - and I must say I rather like the look of the kiritsuke (?) style tip on it, though I have no idea what purpose it serves, plus it runs to $160 delivered... Please excuse my extreme swinging about, but I'm having fun browsing.

http://www.korin-france.fr/suisin-high-carbon-steel-sujihiki-4.html

Hopefully I won't get drunk and wake up realising I just ordered an FKV Yanagiba !

:viking:



But, I don't really understand why you wouldn't want to try a good suji right off the bat. At least you'll have a point of comparison and you don't have to buy it immediately. You'll spend more money out of pocket if you buy a cheap one and don't like it and are forced to sell it. (No money spent to try one.) If you're worried about handling it, just ask the owner (who was gracious enough to offer) to put an edge on it and don't sharpen it yourself. Use soft sponges (no scrubbing pads to clean it) and baby it. But, use it once and you'll probably know if you're a suji kind of person.

Well - that's the issue, Michael, you see. If I really like it then suddenly my budget shoots up and the FKM will seem cheap if I get it. I am sadly not in a position where I can just spend $300 on a new knife..... though saying that, I can see me talking myself into it and then realising I can't buy anything to slice with it.... [That Gesshin Ginga looks oh so tempting.] The reality is that I need to thin about it all very carefully to even justify getting an FKM.

I am not really worried about damaging Tom's knife.

Having never experienced the loaner knife thing, I am not used to it yet.

TB_London
02-20-2013, 03:44 PM
It was a genuine offer so let me know. Unless you try and hammer it through some bones and take a notch out of the blade there's not much you can really do to damage it. The extra cost for the Hattori is mostly the branding and the pattern welded cladding, in my opinion anyway (in other word not a huge step up from lower end knives I've tried). If I was offering a custom knife I'd be more cautious but yeah use it, put it on the stones if you want, see if it works for you.
I could probably post a 240 carbon gyuto with it if you fancy seeing what carbon is like maintenance and reactivity wise.

Cheers,
Tom

Benuser
02-20-2013, 06:06 PM
+1
The guy - I mean the OP - should try a real carbon.

Lefty
02-20-2013, 06:22 PM
I have a feeling Eco-wood is just pakkawood, or plywood (scraps glued together). Just sayin'.

rdpx
02-20-2013, 06:28 PM
+1
The guy - I mean the OP - should try a real carbon.

+1?

are you offering to send me some knives as well, Bernard?

:tease:

Ok, ok, I'm a gonna get me this one:

Real Carbon Knife (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives-by-type/yanagiba/tsukasa-300mm-white-steel-enryu-kurouchi-damascus-yanagiba.html)

Benuser
02-20-2013, 07:26 PM
I meant the guy needs a carbon. An Opinel will do.

franzb69
02-20-2013, 09:07 PM
Have you directly compared a CarboNext to a DP?

no sir i haven't. but i have read on many threads on other forums that many people say that it is a better choice. so in that consensus, i concluded that it is. ok i'll just stop butting in and being such a know it all even if i don't really know a lot.

rdpx
02-20-2013, 09:19 PM
i'll just stop butting in and being such a know it all even if i don't really know a lot.

please don't!

It all helps....

James
02-20-2013, 09:41 PM
I happen to have used both a tkc (carbonext is supposedly a clone of this) and tojiro dp. Both are nice knives, but I like the steel and geometry of the tkc a bit more. Stuff seems to stick less to it and it holds a keen edge a bit better than the tojiro.

rdpx
02-21-2013, 09:41 AM
Thanks James... I wonder if the CN is worth the extra $60?

INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT:-

Had seen a thread where someone mentioned the FKM suji has something odd going on, and that they didn't like it [see first pic looks almost like single bevel R-hand knife?]. A reply said they had a normal suji style FKM and it was fine [see second picture showing normal suji blade-face].

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/images/Img626.jpg

http://www.phoenixknifehouse.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/f/k/fkm2.jpg



so I emailed Koki asking about this large R-hand bevel that was not on any other suji I had seen, and could he explain it.

Here is his reply:

"We list the Single Bevel edge style of Sujihiki (called “Danbiki”) on our web site. If you prefer the regular Sujihiki, we can sell that style of Sujihiki at same price."


So to add confusion - DANBIKI ??? I have googled this and you just get lots of pictures of men who I assume are all called Dan, and their motorbikes. Not a knife in sight.


Anyone ever heard this word before? {this almost deserves a new thread!} It sounds a bit suspect, no? Would you get the "danbiki" or the regular one?



R

Benuser
02-21-2013, 10:20 AM
Ask Koki about weight and spine thickness of both.

rdpx
02-25-2013, 02:25 PM
Measurement differences:

Fujiwara FKM Regular Sujihiki / "danbiki" sujihiki[as on site]


Blade Thickness: 2.2 / 2.4 mm
Blade Width: 39 / 40 mm
Total Weight: 172g / 191g


Anyone have an opinion on the Masamoto VG? There is a 270 suji in B/S/T at about $40 off retail price.... does anyone think this knife is worth twice the price of an FKM?

Is it worth posting a "looking for a <$100 suji" thread in B/S/T, or will people think wanting a knife for $100 is just too cheap ?

R

Benuser
02-25-2013, 03:20 PM
Thank you for the Danbiki data, Robert. They confirm what I was afraid of: in order to create such a bevel you need more steel than the normal sujihiki offers.
$40 off retail price doesn't mean that much if the retail price is the Masamoto's...
They are just terribly overpriced. Please note the handle is no longer made of pakka wood, but of POM, and the steel is a moly and no VG-10.

rdpx
02-25-2013, 06:18 PM
Ok thanks Bernard - sounds like a silent vote for the FKM.

I think this thread has died off!

samuelpeter
03-03-2013, 09:36 PM
Having started my j-knife life on a Tojiro DP 270 gyuto, I'd recommend against it for a suji. It feels pretty terrible on the stones, it's thicker behind the edge than you want it to be, it feels like a tank, and, somehow, my scales shrank. All of the others discussed would be a step in the right direction.