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Matus
02-24-2013, 06:25 PM
So - I have just pulled a trigged on a couple of Yoshikane knives (one SKD one SLD - so both are semi-stainless - both from Maksim JNS). On top of that I have one VG-10, one 19c27, one 1095 and a few more average stainless. These are mostly kitchen knives, one Mora 2000 and one Finish knife (Iisaki Aito).

So - right now I have the KME sharpening system (http://www.kmesharp.com/kmeknshsy.html) which is based on 4" DMT stones. It works OK, but has its quirks and 2 of the stones actually have some edge-damage which you can 'hear' during sharpening.

So I am looking into sharpening stones.

Right now I am downloading video from Carter Cutlery (which is extremely SLOW) to learn how to sharpen knives properly.

I have read quite a few threads on the topic of stone sharpening, but I still have hard time to put together a setup that covers the sharpening process from A to Z. I know I need some 3 stones, possibly something to flatten the stone (diamond?) and probably also some kind of stropping.

So my question is:

Could you please share how a complete sharpening setup should look like? I am looking into getting something works good, not necessarily the super-dooper best and most expensive stuff there is.

thanks

ThEoRy
02-24-2013, 07:24 PM
http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Dave-Martell-set-sharpening-stones-p/set2dmcore.htm
http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/ATOMA-140x-sharpening-stone-plate-p/ato140.htm

Johnny.B.Good
02-24-2013, 07:33 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74muM8gQcEw&list=PLEBF55079F53216AB&index=3

cclin
02-24-2013, 08:16 PM
I have 2 Yoshi SLD! Gesshin 2000 & 6000 (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/sharpening-supplies/gesshin-2000-grit-stone.html)works great for me....for flatten the stone, I like Atoma 140x better than DMT.

stevenStefano
02-24-2013, 08:37 PM
To make things quicker and probably cheaper you can get some good stones and sharpening gear in Europe

Beston 500 from Maxim (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Beston-500-p/118.htm)

Atoma 140 from Dieter Schmid in Germany for flattening (http://www.fine-tools.com/diasharpener.html)

1200 Bester from Dieter Schmid (http://www.fine-tools.com/bester.html)

Chosera 5000 from Eden Webshops (http://www.edenwebshops.de/de/ct/naniwa-chosera-schleifsteine.htm)

Yoni Lang
02-24-2013, 11:13 PM
not necessarily a wrong or right way.. but youre definitely on the right track

murray carter sharpening is a very good starting point. gives you a good breakdown of thinning a blade and reasons why.. deburring methods, stropping, and honing the blade etc.

if my knife is really bad off i'll start on a Bester 1200. and then go up to a 3000 and this gets it perfect for what i use it for. repair i'll hit it on a 500 grit. my knives get a lot of work on the job though so this is daily or every other day. if i have the time to hit it on the stone everyday then i can get away with just starting on the 3000. on that token, my head chef at work uses a 2000 if his knife needs a lot of work, and a 12000 for "touchups".. a bit different from the 1000 to a 6000 a lot of people (including murray carter) use with good results. but his blades are scary sharp.

These (http://www.cutleryandmore.com/tojiro/water-stone-flattening-tool-p117828) are cheap and work well for flattening. no need to break the bank for sharpening tools. as youll see in the video, murray sharpens a knife on a cinder block and then strops it and gets it crazy sharp.. its 90% technique. just get a stone flattener (and be sure to use it before or after every session), and 2 stones and youre good to go

chinacats
02-24-2013, 11:53 PM
Or you could check Korin for flatteners; they are even less expensive and you can support one of the vendors here.

http://korin.com/Knives/Stone-Fixer_2

Yoni Lang
02-25-2013, 12:19 AM
Or you could check Korin for flatteners; they are even less expensive and you can support one of the vendors here.

http://korin.com/Knives/Stone-Fixer_2

on that note.. whats the difference between a $120+ dollar flattener, and a 20$ one.. does one flatten "better" than the other? always perplexed me.. sorry for the hijack

Chefdog
02-25-2013, 12:22 AM
Ill throw in a recommendation for Maksim's 1k synthetic stone and his synthetic aoto (3/5k). Since you purchased your knives through JNS, you know his service and products are very good.

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/URLrewrite.asp?404;http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com:80/Synthetic-Stones-s/1818.htm

franzb69
02-25-2013, 12:34 AM
Jon has a new combo stone! =D

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/sharpening-supplies/gesshin-1000-6000-combo-stone.html

might try out one for myself. 2" thick! =D

Matus
02-25-2013, 05:40 PM
Thank you for your replies.

Concerning the Korin flatteners (http://korin.com/Knives/Stone-Fixer_2) - those that are priced attractively are rather small and smaller than the stones they are supposed to flatten. Does that work well? I would indeed prefer to go for the large diamond plate, but it is more than 100 € what is a bit steep for the start.

So far I can say that Maksim is indeed a nice guy to deal with - answering very quickly and being very helpful (he also had a handful of questions to answer first :lol2: ) So I am indeed inclined to get his JNS Beginner Sharpening Set (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/JNS-Beginner-Sharpening-Set-p/429.htm).

So let's just say for the sake of argument :angel2: I would get the JNS Set - what else am I going to need?
- I supposed the flattener.
- But what about the stropping?
- Should I look for some kind of stone-holder or jut put in in a piece of cloth os some piece of wood?
- How to store those stones properly?
- is 6k stone enough for a nice smooth edge?

I have just started to watch the video from Carter Cuttlery - love the intro (4 minutes not a single word, just one knife gets shaving sharp - it is like watching a black-belt karate master training :thumbsup:)

One obligatory A vs B question - how would the JNS stones compare to those from Gesshin/King/Bester/Suehiro stones? Not necessarily a 'better' question rather what kind of edge do these give and how do they handle.

vicv
02-25-2013, 09:48 PM
I can't answer your question on comparing the JNS to the other stones. I'm more of a Naniwa guy. I personally just use a wet towel on a 2x4 over my sink to hold the stone. Cheap and glamourous! For flattening I use 90 grit silicon carbide loose grit on a flat piece of glass. Works very well and is also cheap. For stone dressing I bought a set of three 1x3 diamond plates on ebay for $9. They work well. Stropping I use felt on 2x4 for deburring. Balsa on 2x4 for with cromium oxide for final edge. And lastly horse butt leather glued to (you guessed it 2x4) for final strop

cclin
02-25-2013, 10:39 PM
please check other members sharpening stations (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/10066-Lets-see-your-sharpening-stations)for reference, then decide what sharpen accessories you need! for stropping, you can use Diamond Spray or Diamond Compound on balsa wood/Rock Hard Felt Pad & leather. or just use news paper for stropping....

Matus
03-03-2013, 08:51 AM
The thread about sharpening stations is great - a lot of nice ideas. I guess I will make myself a wooden bench to put on the kitchen sink as that seems a straight forward and stable solution.

Now back to the stones:

For the start I plan to go with 1k/6k stones - just the options that are there are too many :) From cheaper stones like King or Naniwa basic stones (Akamonzen 1000 - which got great review in DE and some others) to 'higher end' options like Gesshin 1000/6000 (looks great to be honest) or Naniwa Super Stones or Naniwa Chosera.

Watching the (awsome) video from Murray Carter (I am half way through - it has 3 hours!) already answered many of my questions. Murray is using King 1k and 6k stones there.

So - if King stones are 'good enough' for a master smith, than they might do the job for me to I would guess ;)

So one specific question - I read that King stones wear rather fast and given that I will be sharpening the Yoshikane SKD and SLD knives that have hrc 62-64, it makes me wondering whether the King would be the right choice or whether I should look at some more wear resistant stones.

Also - for some reason unknown I would probably prefer stone at least 25mm (or 1") thick - maybe I expect the stone to be more stable/substantial and easier to use (King 1k can be had in size 230x100x80 mm and 4kg weight (http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/king313617b.jpg) :) )

Is it in general a better idea to get 2 separate stones or one stones which is glued from 2 different ones?

franzb69
03-03-2013, 09:10 AM
if you're worried about stones, check out an excellent new stone from japaneseknifeimports, his new gesshin 1k/6k combo stone which is about 1 inch thick on each side. but then it's $135. i'm looking into it already. might be worth checking out as another choice for myself.

those'll last you forever.

Chefdog
03-03-2013, 10:02 AM
I think getting two separate stones is generally a better idea for several reasons.
•You can sharpen on both sides of each stone, which allows you longer sharpening time between flattening
•If it turns out that you like one half of the stone but not the other, having two separate stones allows you to sell one and keep the one you like
•If you use your high grit stone for touch-ups, having separate stones means a lighter package to transport, or smaller stone to leave out for maintenance

FWIW, I have no trouble at all quickly generating a burr on my Yoshikane SKD with both Chocera and JNS stones (havent tried other brands)

vicv
03-03-2013, 10:20 AM
Another option for a combo stone that looks interesting and was actually designed because of an idea from people on this forum is the suehiro 1k/5k stone from stu at Toolsfromjapan who's a vendor here. The 1k is the Cerax stone and the 5k is the much loved Rika. That's basically 2 full size stones glued together. I'm interested in that stone but it would just overlap what I already have but would be a great option for you

Matus
03-03-2013, 10:28 AM
- franzb69 -
Thanks. I am aware of the Gesshin 1000/6000 but I am not really able to locate one in Europe and once I add shipping and taxes I will end up in around 150 € or more.

- Chefdog -
Once you out it this way it indeed seems to make more sense to get 2 separate stones.

Thank you for the feedback on sharpening the Yoshikane!

franzb69
03-03-2013, 10:39 AM
sorry to hear that. my mistake.

Matus
03-03-2013, 12:44 PM
sorry to hear that. my mistake.
No problem at all. I was actually surprised to find out that Gesshin stones seem only available from one seller - the JKI.

I have read a bit more around and it seems that JNS stones are not bad at all ;) People seem to comment on them to be rather hard - what are the implications for the result of the sharpening?

Still - I am wondering whether I could 'cheat' and get something like King 1k/6k, Bester 1k/6k or Naniwa Homestone 1k/3k to get the price down a bit :angel2: or whether I should go straight for JNS (or Gesshin or the like)

Actually - apart from the obvious - are there any relevant differences between the stones that need to be soaked for a longer time and the splash-and-go ones?

vicv
03-03-2013, 01:20 PM
Gessin stones are only available from JKI because they're his stones and he had them made for him

Chefdog
03-03-2013, 01:54 PM
No problem at all. I was actually surprised to find out that Gesshin stones seem only available from one seller - the JKI.

I have read a bit more around and it seems that JNS stones are not bad at all ;) People seem to comment on them to be rather hard - what are the implications for the result of the sharpening?

Still - I am wondering whether I could 'cheat' and get something like King 1k/6k, Bester 1k/6k or Naniwa Homestone 1k/3k to get the price down a bit :angel2: or whether I should go straight for JNS (or Gesshin or the like)

Actually - apart from the obvious - are there any relevant differences between the stones that need to be soaked for a longer time and the splash-and-go ones?

Generally, people seem to say that soaking stones are softer feeling and sometimes offer more feedback than non-soakers. In my comparatively limited experience with various stones this holds true, with some exception here and there. The JNS stones are fairly hard (compared to king-much harder, compared to Gesshin 1k & 5k splash-n-go, noticeably harder, and compared to Shapton Glass stones, a little softer) but still offer decent feedback. I prefer the harder feeling stones because I FEEL like I can be more precise than with a softer stone (that's my perception anyway). And you're less likely to cut into and gouge a harder stone should you'rw angle control not be solid (or have a slip up) and theyre most often less muddy than softer stones. The last stones I had were the gesshin splash stones, and I'd say there's no difference in quality between the two, but they do feel different in use. I do have one chosera, the 400, and it's surprisingly smooth and nice feeling for such a coarse stone while being on the harder side of things. I used King stones for years and they got the job done. The 800&1k are soft and relatively muddy and wear quickly requiring frequent flattening. I didn't love the 4k or the 6k, but they work.
It'll take some time to develope a preference, so if you're not sure you want to drop $150, get a king combo and start sharpening.
Good luck.

keithsaltydog
03-03-2013, 02:20 PM
Alot of good info. on this thread.I like the Atoma plates use them in knife thinning & repair,but there are cheaper plates out there that work fine fine leveling stones,even a cheap sub $ 50.00 works better than those flattening stones.

If you can get the Bester 1200 in EU,it's a versitle quality med. stone.As Jon said in his video start wt. a Med. stone & work on tech.You are on the right track,keep watching those Murry Carter vids. he is a character,intertaining,& his tech is sound.:)

Matus
03-03-2013, 05:02 PM
Gessin stones are only available from JKI because they're his stones and he had them made for him
Whoops, thanks. I somehow missed that.

- Chefdog -

Thank you - that is the kind of information I am looking for.

On the 'cheaper side' - what would be a better choice - King 1000/6000 or Bester 1000/6000? Both the double-sided stones.

Also - is there a significant difference between Bester 1000 and 1200 grits? the 1200 gets mentioned all the time, the 1000 rather rarely.

vicv
03-03-2013, 05:23 PM
Personally I don't like the 6k side of the king stone. I'm no Murray carter so if he likes it that's great. I still say check out stu's website and look at that combo stone. From Japan you'll pay the same shipping rates we would which isn't that bad

Matus
03-03-2013, 05:38 PM
... I still say check out stu's website and look at that combo stone. From Japan you'll pay the same shipping rates we would which isn't that bad
I missed that part of your previous post. Indeed the combination of Cerax 1000 and Rika 5000 looks interesting too. The price including shipping and tax would however be around 80 € (the stone alone is 48 €)

I am not sure whether Murray 'likes' the King stones - those are stones he used for the video. He did not put too much weight into stone selection (I am yet to watch the part where he sharpens knife on a brick :) )

vicv
03-03-2013, 05:47 PM
Thats fair. Shipping prices are not fun. He must like king stones. That's all he really uses from putting the final edge on the knives he makes to knives he's sent to sharpen. Even won the sharpening Olympics with them. But everyones different and I just feel there's better out there for not much more money. And I started with that king combo stone so I'm not biased against it.

SpikeC
03-03-2013, 06:51 PM
Regarding cost, once you buy it and use it for a while you forget the price.

Matus
03-10-2013, 07:08 PM
Just an update:

After I have bombarded Jon with some questions (I tend to do that, somehow ... :angel2:) Jon proposed to chat over Skype. Yesterday we talked (Jon did most of the talking though ;)) for more than half an hour and Jon led me through all the stones I was asking about and then explained the properties of all his Gesshin stones. It was really really great. So this is a big public THANK YOU to Jon.

But Jon not only explained a lot of stuff to me - he was also very helpful guiding me through the stone selection and actually advised me to get a cheaper stone not only to learn (single grit to start with) the technique, but also to find out what kind of stones I like (softer, harder, less or more mud, etc..)

So right now it seems that I am going to get something like Cerax Suehiro 1000/6000, King 1000/6000 or Bester 1000/6000 and start sharpening. And in couple of months I will make some BIG shopping at JKI .. well, unless I do not make it right away - there are 2 smaller knives I would like to get too.

If I go with Gesshin it will be 400 + 1000/6000. That is set.

Matus
03-12-2013, 06:32 PM
So I finally made my choice and ordered a Suehiro Cerax 1000/6000 combination stone and a Naniwa 220 flattening stone. I hope this setup will allow me to learn sharpening with stones (and taking care of the stone).

Once I will get the grip of it I will go for a set of Gesshin stones and a few knives from Jon :)

I will let you know how it is working!

franzb69
03-12-2013, 11:59 PM
congratulations. please let us know what you think of the cerax line.

Matus
03-13-2013, 02:13 AM
congratulations. please let us know what you think of the cerax line.

Will do - there is not all too much of user feedback to be found on this particular stone.

Matus
07-29-2013, 04:46 AM
OK, after few months and some 30 sharpened knives here is the experience with the Suehiro Cerax 1000/6000 stone:

You can see it here (http://www.fine-tools.com/kombischleifstein.html) (I hope this link is allowed - I do not have a photo of the stone yet). It is medium sized stone: 182 x 62 x 27. It is also on the cheap side. I bought it to learn the basics of water-stone sharpening as I was using only a sharpening system until then.

So how it works: the 1k side is rather soft and not very fast cutting and disches rather fast. If you need larger angles you may gauge the stone if not careful. I also managed to produced quite a few chips on the sides during flattening with the Naniwa flattening stone (220 grid if I recall correctly) or sandpaper (on tilefloor), but this could be lack of the experience on my side. The 1k side did not give much "feel" On the other hand the 6k side seems to work quite nicely. It is on the hard side, feels very smooth and cuts reasonably well. It leaves a near-mirror finish even on stainless steel.

So - will I buy another one? Nope - I have just order 400, 2000 and 6000 stones from JKI :knife:, but I did manage to get shaving sharp edges on most of the knives I worked on (the best on my 25 Euro Mora 2000 with 13c27 steel - that is really incredible knife for the money). I did not sharpen my best knives yet as I wanted first to learn with cheaper knives. I did manage to abrade to blod the skin on both of my ring-fingers in one session though - that should be a good sign if I am not mistaken :)

As I have also bought Bester 1000/6000 (from the same store) combination stone for my brother-in-law. This stone is about double the price than the Suehiro Cerax. I can only say that that stone, and in particular the 1000 side, is MUCH better compared to Cerax - dishes much less and cuts faster and feels better. I would recommend this stone to anyone looking for a simple full size combination stone.

So - the future for me are Gesshins stones - here I would like to thank Jon for his help as I had a bit of hard time to choose the "right" stones and I am really looking forward to using them (in few weeks hopefully). Stay tuned.

Brad Gibson
07-29-2013, 04:55 AM
I have heard that the gesshin 400 is amazing. Please give a review on it!

Johnny.B.Good
07-29-2013, 10:54 AM
I have heard that the gesshin 400 is amazing. Please give a review on it!

+1

Thanks for the update, Matus!