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View Full Version : Masamoto KS info to pass on



mpukas
02-25-2013, 01:52 PM
I've just discovered some new info to pass on to you KS freaks (at least it's new news to me).

I've recently been recalling this thread (http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?9916-Sanmai-can-anyone-explain-this&highlight=) from Fred's from a coupe of years ago that Chris Lehrer started about a clad blade in Masamoto's catalog. He was questioning why the same knife made with san mai construction is more expensive that the mono-steel version.

As it turns out, Masamoto does make a clad version of the KS wa-gyuto, the KS29xx sereis. The KS31xx sereis is the mono-steel version. I e-mailed Koki, and these are his replies;



Thank you very much for your inqiury and interest.

Yes. Today we just confirmed information about below items.

Massamoto
KS-3124 Wa Gyuto 240mm (Solid White Steel #2 blade)
HRC 61 to 62
Blade Spine Thickness 3mm

KS-2924 Wa Gyuto 240mm (San-Mai, Cladding blade. Blade core White Steel #2)
HRC 62 to 63
Blade Spine Thickness 4.3mm

Masamoto explains both of above knives are through traditional hammer forging proces. Masamoto explains KS-2924 Wa Gyuto 240mm has thicker blade, and has higher HRC. (Also KS-2924 has higher price too)

...

Yes. From the Masamoto’s information KS-2924 has same blade shape as KS-3124.

The KS-2924 has Cladding blade, blade core is made of White Steel #2 sandwiched with soft iron. The entire blade has possibility to get and discolor, also especially the blade core part has possibility to get discolor from the acid ingredients foods such as onion, lemon.



So the KS31xx and KS29xx have the same profile. And interesting to discover that the KS31xx series are hand forged (did not know), not cut and ground from bar stock, the way most all other mono-steel knives I'm familiar with are made. That would explain a slightly higher cost over a similar mono-steel knife from another company.

Just sharing the love. Cheers! mpp

wenus2
02-25-2013, 01:57 PM
News to me. Good info bro, thanks for sharing.

EdipisReks
02-25-2013, 02:12 PM
oooh, i'd be interested in trying a clad Masamoto.

labor of love
02-25-2013, 02:26 PM
im confused. why would the clad ks cost more? wouldnt the hand forged mono steel be more labor intensive? just curious.

EdipisReks
02-25-2013, 02:32 PM
im confused. why would the clad ks cost more? wouldnt the hand forged mono steel be more labor intensive? just curious.

you are mistaking mono steel and mizu-honyaki, i think.

wenus2
02-25-2013, 02:52 PM
I would agree that I expected the clad blade to be less. I thought this was due to materials cost: white steel being much more expensive than the cladding. It seems to me they often use scrap iron for the cladding, which could be free. So a whole knife of white steel would have a greater cost than a San Mai blade. Though, it may be more labor intensive.
I guess, all in all, it doesn't matter much why; they will charge what they charge.

EdipisReks
02-25-2013, 02:53 PM
traditional san-mai (i'm making the assumption that these knives are done by hand, and that Masamoto isn't just buying a steel sandwich) construction is more labor intensive than heat treating a piece of metal and grinding it to shape. hand made items are typically not all that sensitive to bulk materials costs, when it comes to determining retail prices.

labor of love
02-25-2013, 03:48 PM
wow, this could easily fall into the "kitchen knife misconception thread" soon. so if the traditional san mai in this instance is more costly than the mono steel process, im curious what advantages the san mai could have over the mono steel.

Benuser
02-25-2013, 03:54 PM
The soft clad protects the core. Think about shocks, breakage.

EdipisReks
02-25-2013, 03:55 PM
wow, this could easily fall into the "kitchen knife misconception thread" soon. so if the traditional san mai in this instance is more costly than the mono steel process, im curious what advantages the san mai could have over the mono steel.

similar advantages to those mizu-honyaki has over simple monosteel.

Pensacola Tiger
02-25-2013, 05:07 PM
Okay, who's going to the the first to order a san mai Masamoto from Koki?

mainaman
02-25-2013, 05:07 PM
wow, this could easily fall into the "kitchen knife misconception thread" soon. so if the traditional san mai in this instance is more costly than the mono steel process, im curious what advantages the san mai could have over the mono steel.
The cladded knife is thicker which means the grind can be more convexed which could improve the performance.

Von blewitt
02-25-2013, 05:14 PM
Okay, who's going to the the first to order a san mai Masamoto from Koki?

I already emailed him :) haha let's see what happens

labor of love
02-25-2013, 05:15 PM
The cladded knife is thicker which means the grind can be more convexed which could improve the performance.

yep. i thought about that. a little beefer ks wouldnt hurt anything either. theyre pretty light.

mpukas
02-25-2013, 06:59 PM
Again, note the both the KS29 & KS31 versions are hammered forged - the mono-steel knives are not cut and ground from stock. Saying that, I think the price difference comes down to it being easier to hammer out a blade from a single piece of steel as opposed to forge welding a steel sandwich.

The san mai blade also has higher hardness. As I understand mono-steel blades are limited in their hardness capacities, unless honyaki of course, because as hardness increases so does brittleness. The san mai blade can be a higher hardness on the cutting steel which will take a sharper edge and hold it longer, while not being a brittle knife.

mpukas
02-25-2013, 07:01 PM
Just found out f/ Koki that a KS2924 san-mai wa-gyuto 240mm is...


wait for it...


$575

dmccurtis
02-25-2013, 07:06 PM
That's actually less than when I inquired with Koki in the past.

Von blewitt
02-25-2013, 07:12 PM
Similar price to shig with saya. I wonder if the f&f is better than the mono steel ?

vicv
02-25-2013, 07:17 PM
That's interesting. Neat to know they make the same knife in both styles. Odd how the honyaki knife is cheaper. They usually are not. I've never understood the whole honyaki thing personally. It's nothing magical to deferentially heat treat a knife. Spread some clay on the top third or so and harden. I understand the materials are higher but less labour as you don't need to forge weld. People go on about they're more expensive because there's a bigger rejection rate. Please. That's how all American bladesmiths make their knives and they don't seem to have a problem. The only one I know of who makes san-mai blades is Burt Foster and he charges a premium for them because of the extra work. I'm not trying to start an argument here but it's something I've never understood the obsession with a blade that isn't clad in different steel. But thanks for the info

dmccurtis
02-25-2013, 07:19 PM
The honyaki is not cheaper, the monosteel is.

Von blewitt
02-25-2013, 07:20 PM
There is a difference between mono steel and honyaki. A masamoto honyaki is over $1000. The differential heat treatment allows for a harder edge without a knife that is too brittle

vicv
02-25-2013, 07:29 PM
I was under the impression there were two ways honyaki were used. Monosteel with all blade hardness and monosteel with differential hardness which usually has a hamon line if it's a shallow hardening steel. Still don't see the big deal. Go onto bladeforums right now and I bet at least 5 of the knives on the first page of the makers' forum are differentially heat treated I bet. I agree they look nice with that line. Maybe it's harder with kitchen knives because they're so thin? I

EdipisReks
02-25-2013, 08:05 PM
it's my understanding that thinner knives are much more likely to warp when water quenched.

vicv
02-25-2013, 08:21 PM
True. Actually I'd think the hitachi steels would have less problem with this as the very high carbon content allows a lower hardening temp. But why do people go all gaga over honyaki knives. I mean the performance wouldn't be better. They're harder to sharpen. They're very expensive. And once you sharpen to the hamon they're a paperweight even though that would take a lifetime of use. And I think san-mai blades look better with the contrast you get between the hagane and jigane. Different strokes I guess. Actually the whole differential heat treat thing doesn't make sense. For outdoor knives yes but in the kitchen they don't see heavy enough of use for a softer spine to be necessary. Brittleness only matters at the edge which this style of making doesn't affect

mpukas
02-25-2013, 08:25 PM
A honyaki blade can snap in half rather easily. The softer spine adds overall strength.

EdipisReks
02-25-2013, 08:28 PM
True. Actually I'd think the hitachi steels would have less problem with this as the very high carbon content allows a lower hardening temp. But why do people go all gaga over honyaki knives. I mean the performance wouldn't be better. They're harder to sharpen. They're very expensive. And once you sharpen to the hamon they're a paperweight even though that would take a lifetime of use. And I think san-mai blades look better with the contrast you get between the hagane and jigane. Different strokes I guess. Actually the whole differential heat treat thing doesn't make sense. For outdoor knives yes but in the kitchen they don't see heavy enough of use for a softer spine to be necessary. Brittleness only matters at the edge which this style of making doesn't affect

why do i get the impression that you haven't ever used a honyaki kitchen knife, or every seen what a kitchen can dish out?

vicv
02-25-2013, 08:39 PM
I haven't used a honyaki knife. That's what I'm trying to figure out. As I said not starting an argument just generally want to know. I'm not a pro chef just an overachieving home cook :). But I do cut things in my kitchen and I know the edge is the only thing that touches anything or at least that's all that should. For a knife to snap in half I can't think of what could cause that but if that's the case I'd think the hardness is a little too high to be a good knife. Like not tempered at all. But I truly don't know. I do have an EDC knife I carry all day every day and use it a lot harder than a kitchen knife and it's 01 at 63-64 HRC and ground to .012 behind the edge and I haven't broken it in half. I just can't see a kitchen being harder on a knife than a construction site. Obviously people with more experience know better. Just my take on things. But that doesn't answer why honyaki knives are so sought after

EdipisReks
02-25-2013, 08:44 PM
unless you chip gravel with your EDC, i don't think a construction site is going to be tougher than a pro kitchen, by any means.

my Honyaki is awesome, and i own and have owned and have used a lot of top tier knives, mostly very good san-mai. best edge i've used. the other honyakis i've used have been similar. just as there is much more to a sportscar than 0-62, there is a lot more to a knife than hardness. even regarding hardness and fracturibility, you have to keep in mind that kitchen knives tend to be much thinner for larger percentages of section than a skinner or EDC. that means they are much more likely to fracture if, say, somebody tries to cut through a back bone with a hard knife.

vicv
02-25-2013, 08:58 PM
Ok. I also assume being that they're the smith's top tier line they also get a lot more care and attention to detail as their lower lines( not saying their lower lines are sub-par.) What's so hard about a kitchen on knives as far as wear and tear? I mean you're cutting soft material that as far as I know isn't abrasive like rope and other fibrous materials. As a home cook I know I can take my time and I'm easy on them. But the only thing my kitchen knives touch is food and wood. And I agree on there being more than hardness. I just used it as an example. Overall heat treat and steel quality are very important but at least hardness numbers are an objective thing you can go off of(generally). Not to mention grind and geometry and such. If you thought I was in some way downgrading honyaki knives that wasn't the case. Just asking questions and since it seemed this thread was already pretty much dead it'd be a good place

EdipisReks
02-25-2013, 09:02 PM
go cut up some rutabagas or 50 pounds of leeks and then tell me that they aren't abrasive.

vicv
02-25-2013, 09:05 PM
Ok sorry I asked then. You seem to be offended by my questions.

EdipisReks
02-25-2013, 09:06 PM
i'm not offended at all, i am simply trying to suggest that your assumptions are not correct.

vicv
02-25-2013, 09:09 PM
Ok. Noted. Even I can be wrong on occasion. :laugh:

mpukas
02-25-2013, 09:48 PM
...it seemed this thread was already pretty much dead it'd be a good place

This thread just started, and half of it was gobbled up with your ramblings.

you're cause may be better taken up in one of these old threads.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5409-Honyaki?highlight=honyaki
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/6868-Honyaki?highlight=honyaki

mainaman
02-25-2013, 10:26 PM
Just found out f/ Koki that a KS2924 san-mai wa-gyuto 240mm is...


wait for it...


$575In that price range I'd get Shigefusa or Kato, the steel is better than white 2, and the hardness is same, and for Kato may be higher.
It would not hurt if someone can do a head to head review of the 3 .

daddy yo yo
02-26-2013, 03:26 AM
we definitely need (urgenly!!!) a picture of a masamoto sanmai wa-gyuto!!!

cclin
02-26-2013, 03:50 AM
we definitely need (urgenly!!!) a picture of a masamoto sanmai wa-gyuto!!!

HERE (http://www.houcyoya.com/masamoto/wa_gyu/KS2924.html) is picture

cclin
02-26-2013, 03:52 AM
In that price range I'd get Shigefusa or Kato, the steel is better than white 2, and the hardness is same, and for Kato may be higher.
It would not hurt if someone can do a head to head review of the 3 .

+1

bieniek
02-26-2013, 04:48 PM
Spread some clay on the top third or so and harden. I understand the materials are higher but less labour as you don't need to forge weld.

Next time before you say such thing just mirror polish 24x5cm plate of highly hardened metal, twice ;)

As to the Masamoto, apart from having the logo and being cooler, theres wiser ways to spend 600 dollars, maybe?

mpukas
02-26-2013, 05:14 PM
In that price range I'd get Shigefusa or Kato, the steel is better than white 2, and the hardness is same, and for Kato may be higher.
It would not hurt if someone can do a head to head review of the 3 .

If someone wants to purchase the Masamoto, and others want to send me the Shig & Kato, I'd be happy to do a review of all three!

At $600, that's in the company of some pretty sweet knives. Without actually seeing one, it's hard to say that I'd rather get a Shig, Kato, etc. even if it is white #2. As we know, it's what the maker does with the steel more than the steel itself. If it's got the KS profile AND has a good grind being thin behind the edge with convex face, I'd prolly take that over the tank of the Kato.

But this is all speculation - someone needs to throw down for it.

mainaman
02-26-2013, 05:28 PM
If someone wants to purchase the Masamoto, and others want to send me the Shig & Kato, I'd be happy to do a review of all three!

At $600, that's in the company of some pretty sweet knives. Without actually seeing one, it's hard to say that I'd rather get a Shig, Kato, etc. even if it is white #2. As we know, it's what the maker does with the steel more than the steel itself. If it's got the KS profile AND has a good grind being thin behind the edge with convex face, I'd prolly take that over the tank of the Kato.

But this is all speculation - someone needs to throw down for it.
When you say Kato is a tank did you mean just heavy or too thick? Have you tried one?

mpukas
02-26-2013, 06:13 PM
I mean thick. And no I haven't tried one, but with all the positive talk I'd love to. I say tank because chinacats recently posted a comparo pic (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/9047-You-asked-you-whined-now-here-it-is-Kato-passaround/page15) and it looks pretty wedge-y.

mainaman
02-26-2013, 06:17 PM
I mean thick. And no I haven't tried one, but with all the positive talk I'd love to. I say tank because chinacats recently posted a comparo pic (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/9047-You-asked-you-whined-now-here-it-is-Kato-passaround/page15) and it looks pretty wedge-y.
I see, that is spine shot, the knife is super thin behind the edge. In any case hope soon one of those Masamotos ends in the hands of one of the members followed by a review.

mpukas
02-26-2013, 07:25 PM
I see, that is spine shot, the knife is super thin behind the edge. In any case hope soon one of those Masamotos ends in the hands of one of the members followed by a review.

I'm looking at the third set of pics which are choil shots, and the middle pic the Kato.

EdipisReks
02-26-2013, 09:28 PM
I'm looking at the third set of pics which are choil shots, and the middle pic the Kato.

yeah, that looks pretty wedgetastic, i have to say.

GlassEye
02-26-2013, 09:49 PM
yeah, that looks pretty wedgetastic, i have to say.

I had the new Kato first, and had no wedging issues. I think it holds true to the myths, I wanted to dislike it but it will take some serious competition to beat out the Kato for my next gyuto.

The sanmai Masamoto is quite interesting, can't wait for the review, so someone needs to get one.

EdipisReks
02-26-2013, 10:40 PM
in that case, really looking forward to getting to try another Kato.

chinacats
02-26-2013, 10:44 PM
I had the new Kato first, and had no wedging issues. I think it holds true to the myths, I wanted to dislike it but it will take some serious competition to beat out the Kato for my next gyuto.

The sanmai Masamoto is quite interesting, can't wait for the review, so someone needs to get one.

I'm suffering the same problem, I do not want to like this knife (Kato)--at least not bad enough to buy one--and so far it is a losing battle.

All I can say is the same as others; the damn thing cuts way better than it looks like it should. I just re-examined the blade to see how much the thickness changes from choil outwards and cannot tell visually and I don't have calipers. It cuts as if it is very thin behind the edge, but just doesn't look like it is. A true enigma.

:curse:

bieniek
02-27-2013, 02:31 AM
I told ya.

:whistling:

Twistington
02-27-2013, 02:54 AM
I'm suffering the same problem, I do not want to like this knife (Kato)--at least not bad enough to buy one--and so far it is a losing battle.

All I can say is the same as others; the damn thing cuts way better than it looks like it should. I just re-examined the blade to see how much the thickness changes from choil outwards and cannot tell visually and I don't have calipers. It cuts as if it is very thin behind the edge, but just doesn't look like it is. A true enigma.

:curse:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/gifs/ImpossibleFork.jpg
:laugh:

Von blewitt
03-14-2013, 09:30 PM
I got an email from Koki, turns out the KS San Mai is not the same profile as the KS mono steel. He said it is more similar to the mizuno tanrenjo. And edge length is 230mm

mpukas
03-17-2013, 09:21 PM
??? (http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/yamakawa/item/masamoto-ks2424/)

Von blewitt
03-17-2013, 09:31 PM
??? (http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/yamakawa/item/masamoto-ks2424/)

Certainly looks like it to me!

dmccurtis
03-17-2013, 09:39 PM
That's a mioroshi deba.

Von blewitt
03-17-2013, 10:07 PM
Bummer

mpukas
03-17-2013, 11:13 PM
That's a mioroshi deba.

Thanks - I couldn't figure out what it was.