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View Full Version : New Ken Onion line/ vendor complaints about reviews



apicius9
02-27-2013, 06:38 PM
I am just confused - everything he says about observing pros to create the best possible knives seems so right, but why do the knives then look so wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbT0P85K_Io&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Stefan

jayhay
02-27-2013, 07:00 PM
Great video, great message, same Ken Onion design. I'd love to love 'em, but I can't. The wildly curved handles hurt to use over a couple hours of hard prep, and it's difficult to get leverage over them. Like I said, I'd love to love 'em, but can't.

ThEoRy
02-27-2013, 07:29 PM
It took me like 2 months to sell the Ken Onion Shun I stumbled into last year...

brainsausage
02-27-2013, 07:38 PM
The blade geometry is horrible, and the handles are only useful if you were to use one singular grip through the span of your prep- which is ridiculous. I don't know what so called pro's he's been studying, but he needs to broaden his research spectrum...

El Pescador
02-27-2013, 07:58 PM
One man's trash is another man's treasure...

TheDispossessed
02-27-2013, 08:18 PM
those knives hurt all my aesthetic sensibilities.
every time i see a ken onion, it hurts.
well no actually, i laugh a little inside too

shaneg
02-27-2013, 08:30 PM
The blade geometry is horrible, and the handles are only useful if you were to use one singular grip through the span of your prep- which is ridiculous. I don't know what so called pro's he's been studying, but he needs to broaden his research spectrum...

"It's what the pro's use" will translate into sales when the housewives and people who like expensive toys see them in the shop window next to the 'made in America' tag.

Someone needs to send him that clip of the sushi chef peeling an apple with the suji.

chinacats
02-27-2013, 08:31 PM
:lol2:

They make them at Lamson...

labor of love
02-27-2013, 08:35 PM
my wrist actually felt soar just by watching that video!:(

apicius9
02-27-2013, 08:41 PM
Maybe I should visit him, I am teaching a course around the corner from him every Thursday... :) But what do I know? He seems to be doing well and certainly has found his recognizable style.

Stefan

stevenStefano
02-27-2013, 09:02 PM
I don't know what so called pro's he's been studying, but he needs to broaden his research spectrum...

Hey there Mr Chef. Here's a new knife we're gonna give you for free to try out. What do you think? Oh yeah it's awesome thanks.........

Lefty
02-27-2013, 09:06 PM
I'm not even going to start....

mpukas
02-27-2013, 09:50 PM
terrible

.

ThEoRy
02-27-2013, 10:05 PM
Maybe it was tested and approved by Giovanni???... :dontknow:

franzb69
02-27-2013, 10:18 PM
lol @theory

brainsausage
02-27-2013, 11:31 PM
Hey there Mr Chef. Here's a new knife we're gonna give you for free to try out. What do you think? Oh yeah it's awesome thanks.........

Chumps...

NO ChoP!
02-27-2013, 11:58 PM
It looks better than the Original Shun Onion...if he'd give up the curves, it may not be too bad...some how it reminds me of a warped Hasslinger.

Noodle Soup
02-28-2013, 01:46 AM
I gave a set of the Shun/Onions to a co-worker when I finished with them and she loves them. Ken needs to give these knives his own special look or there wouldn't be any point in marketing them as an Onion designed line. They don't look that bad to me and I like the fact they are made in the USA. Lamson has been trying a lot harder than most US industries in recent years.

Crothcipt
02-28-2013, 03:07 AM
totally reminded me of ...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/11Ufqgbn9kL._SL250_.jpg

The whole time I kept on thinking of the rock and chop commercial. get rid of the pinch holder, and you have his idea.

Paradox
02-28-2013, 03:24 AM
totally reminded me of ...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/11Ufqgbn9kL._SL250_.jpg

The whole time I kept on thinking of the rock and chop commercial. get rid of the pinch holder, and you have his idea.

Oh MAN! Don't go dissn' Chef Tony like that bro.

Beohbe
02-28-2013, 03:31 AM
You guys would like his kitchen knives a lot more if you had remembered to put your Ken Onion Meatfist™ on before using them...

http://i.imgur.com/W8brDHU.jpg

Makes it mo' better. ;)

kalaeb
02-28-2013, 03:45 AM
Stefan, I know you have a thing for the Ken Onions, come one, how many do you have in your block? :justkidding:

ThEoRy
02-28-2013, 04:13 AM
I know you ain't talkin bout my accugrip control ball mutha£ %#& ?!
13661

Beohbe
02-28-2013, 05:33 AM
I know you ain't talkin bout my accugrip control ball mutha£ %#& ?!
13661

I'm 99.9% certain that the only reason the accugrip thing was added was so he could brag about how many housewives have had his balls in their hands...

Lefty
02-28-2013, 08:55 AM
I came back to this thread, watched the campy video and surprisingly I now understand what I was thinking earlier, so I'll see if I can put it "on paper":

Ken Onion truly is a world-class designer. Take a look at his folders and you'll want one. They're badass!

With this new line, he's actually a lot closer than we think...sort of. He needs to lose the curvy edge profile and drop the tip quite significantly. However, if he does, then they'll look too much like every other knife, and the whole point of having an Onion designed knife is wasted.

Ken Onion is a talented dude...honestly.

Why don't people realize there's more to a chef/petty/parer/nakiri than making a one-handed mezzaluna?

Lamson is trying VERY VERY hard to get back into the high-end market. They're starting to understand what they need to do. These knives aren't exactly what is needed, but it shows that they give a crap.

I think that writing a knife off because it is Lamson made is pure crap. The guys over there are really trying to get why we like thin, over purely bulletproof. Honestly, those guys give a ****.

I'd love to design a knife for them, but I don't think, in any language, that my last name is a vegetable.

Von blewitt
02-28-2013, 09:31 AM
I came back to this thread, watched the campy video and surprisingly I now understand what I was thinking earlier, so I'll see if I can put it "on paper":

Ken Onion truly is a world-class designer. Take a look at his folders and you'll want one. They're badass!

With this new line, he's actually a lot closer than we think...sort of. He needs to lose the curvy edge profile and drop the tip quite significantly. However, if he does, then they'll look too much like every other knife, and the whole point of having an Onion designed knife is wasted.

Ken Onion is a talented dude...honestly.

Why don't people realize there's more to a chef/petty/parer/nakiri than making a one-handed mezzaluna?

Lamson is trying VERY VERY hard to get back into the high-end market. They're starting to understand what they need to do. These knives aren't exactly what is needed, but it shows that they give a crap.

I think that writing a knife off because it is Lamson made is pure crap. The guys over there are really trying to get why we like thin, over purely bulletproof. Honestly, those guys give a ****.

I'd love to design a knife for them, but I don't think, in any language, that my last name is a vegetable.

In Australia your last name is a toothpaste

Lefty
02-28-2013, 09:34 AM
I've finally found my calling....

Really? Wanna send me some? Haha

Noodle Soup
02-28-2013, 10:42 AM
Good post Lefty. If Ken simply designed a Japanese version of an ancient French knife, it would go no where. Most people still use the rocking cut these knives are obviously designed for. Unlike most custom knifemakers that simply make copies of what ever has been a good seller for someone else (look at all the Kramer copies) Ken is working at coming up with something new he has tried and feels is an improvement.

JMJones
02-28-2013, 11:41 AM
I always love to see things like this. The more attention paid to higher end kitchen cutlery the better for most all of us. These are the feeder programs for knife knuts. My guess the story for many on this board goes something like this: Someone splurges on a higher end knife, sees some improvement in cutting ability/ looks, gets interested and inquisitive and eventually ends up here, or at the online retailers or on a custom makers list. Or all three!

Miles
02-28-2013, 12:54 PM
Ken Onion is clearly a very talented guy. No question. He also seems to have a very distinct design aesthetic when it comes to kitchen knives. Do I care for that aesthetic or will his knives be a good fit for me? No, but if he can replace some of the lousy knives out there with something which is better and that helps inspire people to cook good honest food instead of opening a box? Nothing wrong with that IMHO.

chinacats
02-28-2013, 01:03 PM
Lamson is trying VERY VERY hard to get back into the high-end market. They're starting to understand what they need to do. These knives aren't exactly what is needed, but it shows that they give a crap.

I think that writing a knife off because it is Lamson made is pure crap. The guys over there are really trying to get why we like thin, over purely bulletproof. Honestly, those guys give a ****.


Fair enough, it just seems that all the knives they make wind up better after some serious thinning/edge work. Not that most knives don't improve, just that it seems more necessary with theirs out of the box. I would love to see a large American company (Lamson would be great) start to make some serious steel, but until they 'finish' grinding the knives I think they still need to get some crap as motivation to improve. If the knife resellers sent stuff back to be finished they would learn rather quickly. You might think that Lamson if they really are getting serious would put out a serious knife with their own name on it--I think more people are familiar with Lamson than some of the other knives they make including Ken Onion (talking about the general public here, and maybe I am wrong). I also realize that creating your own distribution network is not something that happens overnight and without people in the know.

Oh and I have no experience with Ken Onion knives, and hope to keep it that way--though I just looked at a few of the folders they make and they look very nice and the price seems fair. I must say that his kitchen knives do look like artwork (pretty good artwork at that) more than kitchen tools.

Cheers!

Lefty
02-28-2013, 01:23 PM
Why must you be so classy??? Haha. I'll agree with you on...I think...your whole post. They should do that!

jgraeff
02-28-2013, 01:29 PM
Those handles look like they would hurt!

shaneg
02-28-2013, 03:04 PM
I've finally found my calling....

Really? Wanna send me some? Haha
Same as in nz..
www.macleans.co.nz

knyfeknerd
02-28-2013, 04:38 PM
I've never seen any of Kenny's non-kitchen knives. I think the kitchen ones are butt-ugly. I mean who holds a knife like that? Who Chawp Chawp Chawps like that ????
I do think it would be awesome for Lamson to start making some respectable knives. It's great that they are American and have been around forever. How much/what does it take to produce a knife through them?
I'm sure some of us forum members could execute better designs than the Kennys and the SeaKayTeaGee lines commissioned to Lamson & Goodnow.
Lefty should commission his own line of crazy Lefty knives!

mhlee
02-28-2013, 05:04 PM
I'm 99.9% certain that the only reason the accugrip thing was added was so he could brag about how many housewives have had his balls in their hands...

And 99.9% percent of housewives that have used that knife thought to themselves, "This ball is very small"?

Yoni Lang
02-28-2013, 05:51 PM
:lol2:
In Australia your last name is a toothpaste

ThEoRy
02-28-2013, 09:52 PM
I'll say one thing, that Chef Tony sure does appreciate a nice fan...


http://youtu.be/eV2nRaEvcDQ

Mrmnms
02-28-2013, 10:35 PM
The first time I saw a Ken Onion knife I thought it looked ridiculous . I assumed it would be very awkward and poorly balanced. It wasn't. I don't own one, but have used one. I can understand why any number of cooking enthusiasts might like it, although I agree it wouldn't be my top choice for a full day of prep. It's not designed for the types that love this forum, but it certainly makes a lasting impression . I've used much worse.
It would be a pretty cool project if, as a group, we could come up with a design worthy of a minimum run order at Lamson. I'd be happy to kick in more than my share. Some pretty "sharp" guys on this forum worth listening to.

sachem allison
03-01-2013, 04:20 AM
The thing about Lamson is they forgot how good of a knife maker they were. For 100 + years they were one of the best in America. They made super paper thin, distal tapered carbon steel knives that could compete with any one in the world. The problem with most of these companies is as time went by the old knife makers who knew how to do it died or retired and it was too expensive to train a new guy what it took a lifetime to learn. They modernized there equipment, got rid of most of the skilled staff through time and attrition. Machines couldn't finesse it like a person could. Yes they kept a lot of the hand finishing but, with out that experience, there is now a huge learning curve. They are trying and they are getting better at it. You would be surprised at what they are willing to do to get this market. It just takes a little more time and they'll start to remember and prove how good they are. I wish them luck.

Remember a lot of the fit and finish issues and the over/ under grinds and poor heat treat are a direct result of the designer, commisionner not inspecting and holding the company accountable. If I design a product and you make it to my spec. it better be right or I will send it back every time until it is right. If I am willing to take it as is even if it doesn't meet my standard because, I want to get it to market bugs be damned then it's on me and I suck not the manufacturer. This is a business and all parties have a responsibility.

keithsaltydog
03-01-2013, 06:34 AM
I agree Son,my theory is that before when thin quality carbon was being forged in the US,knives were a part of everyday life & people for the most part took better care of them.I know my Gt. grandfather & Gf took care of their carbon boat building chisels.My father also built boats & was a pattern & model maker for NACA that later became NASA.I still have quite a few of those wood tools,most in excellent condition.

Around turn of century industrial revolution in full swing,peoples jobs became more specialized,instead of more generalist where you had to be good at many things.Stainless steel & later dishwashers,many more careless wt. knives,finally knife makers went for lowest common denom.Thick soft stainless knives,that dent instead of chip became the norm.

In Japan it was different after WW2 swordmaking was banned & some turned to making the best kitchen knives on the planet.Still do.With the exception of some very good custom forgers.

chinacats
03-01-2013, 12:55 PM
The thing about Lamson is they forgot how good of a knife maker they were. For 100 + years they were one of the best in America. They made super paper thin, distal tapered carbon steel knives that could compete with any one in the world. The problem with most of these companies is as time went by the old knife makers who knew how to do it died or retired and it was too expensive to train a new guy what it took a lifetime to learn. They modernized there equipment, got rid of most of the skilled staff through time and attrition. Machines couldn't finesse it like a person could. Yes they kept a lot of the hand finishing but, with out that experience, there is now a huge learning curve. They are trying and they are getting better at it. You would be surprised at what they are willing to do to get this market. It just takes a little more time and they'll start to remember and prove how good they are. I wish them luck.

Remember a lot of the fit and finish issues and the over/ under grinds and poor heat treat are a direct result of the designer, commisionner not inspecting and holding the company accountable. If I design a product and you make it to my spec. it better be right or I will send it back every time until it is right. If I am willing to take it as is even if it doesn't meet my standard because, I want to get it to market bugs be damned then it's on me and I suck not the manufacturer. This is a business and all parties have a responsibility.

Well said chef, hopefully the KKF knife will help them to be better makers! I think QC may be our teams strength.

wellminded1
03-01-2013, 02:32 PM
I remember a friend of mine was given a shun ken onion, for graduation and both of us just sat there looking at the thing, like ***. I can't help but laugh and look in amazement.

Crothcipt
03-02-2013, 06:36 AM
I do like Ken Onion's design on other types of knives. I just can't seem to like the fact the only chef's he looked at didn't use the knife for a couple hours, but just doing the rock chop. I just hope he gets some better "chefs" for his next kitchen knife.

WiscoNole
03-02-2013, 03:07 PM
hey, at least he doesn't have that ridiculous curved bolster going down almost to the edge like on the Shuns.

Chuckles
03-02-2013, 08:53 PM
I would use the pairing knife.

brainsausage
03-02-2013, 09:57 PM
I would use the pairing knife.

Even with that handle?

Chuckles
03-03-2013, 01:54 AM
Wouldn't be my first choice but looks usable. I bet I could open the sh^! out of some boxes with that thing.

brainsausage
03-03-2013, 01:56 AM
Wouldn't be my first choice but looks usable. I bet I could open the sh^! out of some boxes with that thing.

Well played sir, well played indeed!

labor of love
03-03-2013, 09:07 PM
im about to sharpen a friends ken onion chefs knife today or tomorrow. judging from the profile im sure its gonna be a PITA to get an even bevel from heel to tip. not looking forward to it all.

Dave Martell
03-03-2013, 09:40 PM
im about to sharpen a friends ken onion chefs knife today or tomorrow. judging from the profile im sure its gonna be a PITA to get an even bevel from heel to tip. not looking forward to it all.


It's a Labor of Love - LOL :D

brainsausage
03-03-2013, 09:46 PM
im about to sharpen a friends ken onion chefs knife today or tomorrow. judging from the profile im sure its gonna be a PITA to get an even bevel from heel to tip. not looking forward to it all.

Hah, that's funny. I promised one of the waitstaff I'd sharpen their knife. She brings it in on one of my days off, and I found it yesterday all wrapped up in a dish towel. Unwrapped it- looked at my Sous, and we both shook our heads simultaneously. It's ridiculously dull as well. Gonna grab a six pack and start grinding away later this evening...

Ken Onion
06-29-2013, 04:10 AM
I'll just leave this thread alone. Thanks for the feedback. Have a wonderful day.

kalaeb
06-29-2013, 04:19 AM
Well now, wait a minute, stick around, lets talk design.

Brad Gibson
06-29-2013, 05:46 AM
Well now, wait a minute, stick around, lets talk design.

:stinker:

Lefty
06-29-2013, 05:55 AM
If that's the real Ken Onion, I'd love for him to come back and discuss knife design with us. There could be a ton to learn for everybody, Ken included. With that being said, I "dabble" in knife design, and Ken Onion could teach me more in an hour, on the phone, than I learn in a month, on my own....

I'd love to see him come back, personally.

franzb69
06-29-2013, 06:23 AM
If that's the real Ken Onion, I'd love for him to come back and discuss knife design with us.

agreed.

=D

mkriggen
06-29-2013, 05:48 PM
Just watched the video. Don't know about his knives, but it sure made me want to buy some trees:D

And I agree, if that's the real KO I'd love to see you stick around and add to the value of this forum. We can be rough, but generally we're fair. Besides, we pick on everybody, not just you. Except Hoss, no one picks on Hoss.

Noodle Soup
06-29-2013, 07:45 PM
And you after got done tearing his designs apart, you would try to make him design knives that look just like every other Japanese blade. I've said it before but Ken can't make a living designing knives that look the same as every other maker's. They need to be easily recognizable as "Ken Onions." Until you have actually used these new designs I don't think you are being fair to him no mater what you say. I've handled the prototypes and some I liked and some I didn't but that goes for practically every maker's. If the world depended on Japanese knives to feed themselves the majority of the earth's population would starve.

Dardeau
06-29-2013, 09:10 PM
I worked with a guy who had a couple of the shuns. I didn't care for how they felt, but they got nice and sharp. He did very good knife work with them, and loved them. He disliked the k-Sab I was using. His cuts weren't any better or worse than mine. The profile actually looks a lot like the tanaka r2s that people love. Look at the edges, really similar.

Noodle Soup
06-29-2013, 09:17 PM
Exactly Dardeau, knives are very personal and no two people cut things exactly the same. I had a Ken Onion/Shun chef knife that I thought was OK but nothing special. I gave to a co-work and she thinks it is the ultimate kitchen knife that could ever be created. What right would I have to say she is wrong?

EdipisReks
06-30-2013, 03:06 AM
I'll just leave this thread alone. Thanks for the feedback. Have a wonderful day.

lovely, a martyr. man up. you might produce a decent kitchen knife, if you do.

Ken Onion
06-30-2013, 06:39 AM
Man Up ? Maybe you should school me on how to design and manufacture a decent kitchen knife based on your extensive background. I'll be sure to check back tomorrow for some insight from you.

Mrmnms
06-30-2013, 07:07 AM
I find it remarkable how many comments are made on this thread by people who have never touched this knife. With such a negative vibe, I can certainly understand why Mr Onion wouldn't bother subjecting himself to unproductive abuse. Perhaps the knife was not designed to be used by "purists". So be it.

Lefty
06-30-2013, 07:15 AM
It was designed to be different, yet effective, and as Noodle Soup wrote, "Distinctly Onion". I won't write it off, but I also see that according to our preferences, and cutting techniques, it might not be ideal for us. With that in mind, maybe it would surprise us. The guy knows design. I'd love to see one in person.

franzb69
06-30-2013, 07:38 AM
ohhh popcorn.

all i can say is, Ken's designs are marketed towards a different crowd. We just have a different line of thought towards our knives. He has his own, and he has his own audience. Clearly, he has a market for his knives. Hey, I got a couple of folders that he's designed.

Noodle Soup
06-30-2013, 11:06 AM
lovely, a martyr. man up. you might produce a decent kitchen knife, if you do.

I think it is that kind of attitude that keeps a lot of respected knifemakers and designers away from forums like this one. If you have ever met Ken you would know he tends to fit the stereotype of an "ex-Marine." Telling him to "man up" is not something you would probably do to his face.

Dave Martell
06-30-2013, 11:20 AM
From the members (in general) - Ken Onion's kitchen designs are not in line with what the folks here are into.

From Ken Onion - it's tough to sit by and listen to "experts" criticize his work



Folks, we should remember to act gentlemanly (respectful) when addressing each other. Insults or prodding directly at a member isn't something we should see here.

For Ken, we allow honest reviews here at KKF. Sorry if your designs have been met with negative criticism but you have to accept this for what it is without response. Making snarky comments within a review thread will only serve to bring on snarky comments from members. Also, please see our Terms of Use (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/8110-Vendor-and-Membership-Terms-of-Use?p=137749&viewfull=1#post137749)

labor of love
06-30-2013, 12:33 PM
Ken, if you really want to start a dialogue here, I really would like to hear more about the ideas behind the handle design on the Shun line.

SpikeC
06-30-2013, 05:29 PM
I think it is that kind of attitude that keeps a lot of respected knifemakers and designers away from forums like this one. If you have ever met Ken you would know he tends to fit the stereotype of an "ex-Marine." Telling him to "man up" is not something you would probably do to his face.

There are no "ex-Marines".

Noodle Soup
06-30-2013, 06:11 PM
Sorry Spike, I should have known that was an incorrect way to phrase that. :) A "retired" Army Ranger.

Crothcipt
06-30-2013, 08:34 PM
Ken (I really hope its you) sorry for some JA's that wanted a flame war. I myself wouldn't buy one, cause I don't use rocking motion. But I do know at least 4 other cooks I work with that prob. would go ape @#$% over them. I am just a little curious why you went with the belly like you did.

Noodle Soup
06-30-2013, 09:17 PM
It was really him for sure.

Lefty
06-30-2013, 09:57 PM
It was Ken....

chinacats
06-30-2013, 10:50 PM
Interesting that he did come off as pretty defensive...that said it's probably not fair to invite an debate with someone who is unable to fully defend himself (kkf rules). I really don't understand his design philosophy and it would be interesting to hear where he is coming from--I can see using his gyuto for rock chopping herbs and that's about it. They do look somewhat 'artistic' though not practical. Anyone here use one?

NO ChoP!
07-01-2013, 12:19 AM
I think 26 years in kitchens, 70 hour weeks with a knife in hand does make me an expert....

ThEoRy
07-01-2013, 12:48 AM
I think 26 years in kitchens, 70 hour weeks with a knife in hand does make me an expert....

Crap, I still need 4 more years!@!

mr drinky
07-01-2013, 01:22 AM
The blade geometry is horrible, and the handles are only useful if you were to use one singular grip through the span of your prep- which is ridiculous. I don't know what so called pro's he's been studying, but he needs to broaden his research spectrum...

THIS.

But what percentage of pro chefs actually use good knives? I'm not in the industry, but I've met more chefs that use crap blades than those who use anything resembling a good knife. You can tell the advice he is getting is from a rock chopper of some sort.

If I wanted advice on good guns or how to design a better gun, I wouldn't necessarily scour the ranks of military members. There are millions of military members (current and former) who have trained using a variety of weapons (guns) yet know nothing about good guns or appreciate them. Some do know a lot, but most don't. I would wager the same applies to chefs and knives, so I wouldn't be surprised if the input Onion gets doesn't necessarily lead to a better knife.

k.

Justin0505
07-01-2013, 01:38 AM
I think that there are some pretty major traps that well established knife makers fall into when trying to transition to kitchen knives. It sounds like Ken tried to avoid some of them, but also ran face-first into some others.

One of biggest is that knifes, especially Japanese kitchen knives, are debugged technology: Collectively there have been millions of hours put into their evolution. I'm not not saying that improvements and adaptations are not possible, just that the likelihood of making a change that is both radical and GOOD, is very very slim. Which brings me to my other point that different for the sake of being different is almost always a bad thing when it comes to FUNCTIONAL design. Some folks mentioned that Ken needs to make knives with his own "style", and that necessitates some design choices with questionable function, but I'd argue that there are ways to do that without going too far. I think that it's very easy to recognize most of the custom maker from KKF's work.

The other has to do with ergonomics. Almost all other cutting applications require a hold on the knife that can resist substantial force, so a handle that really LOCKS the hand into a generalize "good" grip is beneficial. However, the vast majority of kitchen cutting tasks require very little force. So, features like finger grooves and that stupid "pinch here" bolster are not needed and are actually hindrances that limit subtle variations in grip position.... not to mention what that bolster does to sharpening... and speaking of sharpening, that "rain" finish looks cool and all, but it will look like crap after the first major thinning session and it's not user-replaceable.

But, I guess what Ken DOES know is how to make stuff that sells, and a part of that is playing to the majority: a majority that is certainly not populated by people like the regulars on KKF. These are folks that will seldom sharpen and when they do it will be w/ a pull-through device or a professional service. They have technique that's based on (what we would consider) dull knives with fat grinds that require lots of force and rocking. They don't understand subtle design and ergonomics and like design that seems obvious, not nuanced. I'm sure they will love these knives.

However, it does look like he got some things right: for one the materials sound good: high quality American components: G10 scales, Carpenter steel. I've never heard of BDZ1, but here's what I found:



Nominal Analysis
0.60/0.75 C, 1.00 Max. Mn, 0.025 Max. Ph, 0.01 Max. S, 1.00 Max. Si, 12.50/13.50 Cr, 0.75 Max. Mo, Bal. Fe

A martensitic steel chemically balanced and processed to provide a uniform, fine carbide structure. This structure has been suitable for the manufacture of thin sections and fine blanking operations. The alloy can achieve a tempered hardness capability into the low HRC 60’s.

CTS BDZ1 alloy is an excellent candidate for razor and utility blade applications, which demand high hardness and edge retention. This proprietary alloy is part of the Carpenter CTS family of alloys, offering superior edge retention and surface finish and an ability to be machined to a fine edge and consistent heat-treatability from lot to lot.

The knives are all up on Chef Work's web store now and they have youtube videos in their channel showing all of them (just search for the name of knife). Some look better or worse than others, but I would honestly like to try them all.
I think Ken should do what he should have BEFORE putting these into production which is come on board as a vendor and start a pass around.

franzb69
07-01-2013, 02:16 AM
But what percentage of pro chefs actually use good knives?

in my limited experience a good number of chefs don't have good knives. and a good deal of those people who have "good knives" are carrying around wusthofs or henckels. and we all know how those perform. and those that do have japanese knives either have globals or shuns. and we know how those perform as well.


There are millions of military members (current and former) who have trained using a variety of weapons (guns) yet know nothing about good guns or appreciate them. Some do know a lot, but most don't. I would wager the same applies to chefs and knives

agreed.


But, I guess what Ken DOES know is how to make stuff that sells, and a part of that is playing to the majority: a majority that is certainly not populated by people like the regulars on KKF. These are folks that will seldom sharpen and when they do it will be w/ a pull-through device or a professional service. They have technique that's based on (what we would consider) dull knives with fat grinds that require lots of force and rocking. They don't understand subtle design and ergonomics and like design that seems obvious, not nuanced. I'm sure they will love these knives.

which is where his knives tend to sell. he's captured a market that needed filling. from a business standpoint, he does very well.


i really would love to hear ken out on his designs. maybe we can, uhm bend the rules this one time just so we can actually pick his brain without doing it a roundabout way?

shaneg
07-02-2013, 03:08 AM
in my limited experience a good number of chefs don't have good knives. and a good deal of those people who have "good knives" are carrying around wusthofs or henckels. and we all know how those perform. and those that do have japanese knives either have globals or shuns. and we know how those perform as well.



agreed.



which is where his knives tend to sell. he's captured a market that needed filling. from a business standpoint, he does very well.


i really would love to hear ken out on his designs. maybe we can, uhm bend the rules this one time just so we can actually pick his brain without doing it a roundabout way?

Yeah you are spot on with the brands of the majority of chefs use, I'd also add vitorinox, they seem to be the most popular here.

Also I'm not really a fan but if he'd designed a knife that looked like a variety of j knives he'd be knocked for that too.
The wealthy home cook who wants a step up from shun will love his knives, one of my chefs is slowly collecting the shun collection, they have done Very well in the marketing department.


Maybe start a ken onion q&a thread? that's locked to all replies except ken onion?
Or collect a number of questions and email them to him?
Otherwise I can see a shitstorm of arguing happening.

NO ChoP!
07-02-2013, 10:24 AM
The Onion lines remind me of the Kramers. With Shun, it was aesthetic. With Kramer and Zwilling things like good heat treat, good taper came into play. These new Onions appear heeps better than the Shuns. I think what's missing is some Ken Onion customs. Well?

Crothcipt
07-02-2013, 04:27 PM
Ok I'm thinking of starting a pass a round with one. That way some of us can put our words where our mouth is.

http://www.chefworks.com/shop_image/product/49133f6a7f175529051e2beb1db9fe94.jpg

That way if Ken does decide to come back then we might have some incite he could glean off of.

When I get the knife I will start a separate thread.

bikehunter
07-02-2013, 06:02 PM
All the years I've been on knife forums, I've only done one pass a round and it seemed a bit of a hassle, as I don't drive and it's a chore to get to the post office. But this one is a pass a round in which I'd like to take part

Noodle Soup
07-02-2013, 06:39 PM
It is one thing if you just want to try the knife out for yourself but if you think you can make a list of flaws that need to be corrected for the maker, I don't see the point of a pass around. Once they have tooled up and put something into production no manufacturer is going be willing to make changes without an extremely good reason. Their money is on the table now and they need to wait for the roulette wheel to quit spinning to see if they won or lost.

Crothcipt
07-02-2013, 07:43 PM
I know he wont change anything. Well not on this knife, but in the future on others he may incorporate some in. Any way if you don't want to be in don't be. me myself I wanted to try one of his out.

pumbaa
07-02-2013, 09:00 PM
The steel seems pretty cool bdz1 never used or heard of it before but after reading supposedly made for low 60's hrc and edge retention. I don't rock so the profile would be awkward for me to use.

Lefty
07-02-2013, 09:07 PM
Yeah, I'm really wanting to try one out, as well.

knyfeknerd
07-02-2013, 09:51 PM
I'd be down to try it our too. I've always been pretty vocal about how ugly(IMHO) the design is.
Who knows though, I could love the way it performs. I'll rock an ugly knife as long as it cuts like a champ!
The abilities always outweigh the aesthetics.

marc4pt0
07-02-2013, 09:54 PM
Throw me in the loop as well if you got the room. I've used the shun version a friend of mind had. Not impressed but this one does look to be a lot better!

Crothcipt
07-02-2013, 10:21 PM
So ya went to buy one. Not out for sale yet. prob. gonna go for some reps first.

ThEoRy
07-03-2013, 12:28 AM
I too have used the Shun Onion 10" gyuto and would give this a go for comparison. I say we should offer a fair critique of this blade on our own for Ken to digest since he isn't allowed to engage the community as an active salesman/craftsman. Ken if you are reading, please consider our fair and honest reviews of your blade as merely a constructive criticism. The combined wealth of experienced knife users in this pool of users is quite vast. This is a good opportunity to garner some excellent feedback.

EdipisReks
07-03-2013, 02:19 AM
I'm only interested in trying one that doesn't have the terrible handle. The KO Shuns have blades better than Cut Brooklyn, for instance, but those handles just ruin things.

franzb69
07-03-2013, 05:37 AM
I use a rocking cut mainly and it works.

that's the thing though, practically none of us here rock cut/chops. we pretty much do this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx1U-bja3i8

the master salty at work


I'd suggest you try the knives. The guys at ChefWorks know what they are doing, as does Ken. It might not jive with what you know or have done and heck it may not work for professional chefs, but I know a lot of knife guys who were blown away by them. Me included.

whether it be the pros or the folks at home who are members here, when we say it doesn't work for us. it really doesn't. and i have mentioned earlier, ken's products just are marketed and sold to people who, well..... are apples. we're the oranges. as to apples to oranges. try doing the same motions with your knives on the video and see if it works for you. you'll find out that you'll end up wanting a different kind of knife when doing those cutting motions instead of rocking your knife, it just doesn't work for us. watch pros in the kitchen, the really good ones do not rock chop, they barely do, if at all.

here's a couple of other videos on cutting motions and knife grips:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH8pgoMzVSs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3TjTVkEd4w

with certain grips and cutting motions, Ken's designs are well... prohibitive.

then there's the rocking motion that is, well... forced on you due to the design of the knife, it's a nightmare on the edge if you weigh down on your knife a lot. aside from the fact that that kind of cutting motion is slower than what you can do with what we would be able to do the way we do things.

there's no question that his knives are great, they're just not great for us. also that his knives sell well, even without us buying his knives and designs. we're not saying that we demand that we be appeased or whatever, it's just that maybe he could listen to what we would want to see in knives to be incorporated in his designs. and it might actually help him get a larger audience, meaning including us.

do notice the shapes of the knives in the videos included, they're way flatter, on the first video the knife salty used was nearly almost flat. even those that do have belly, actually have a much flatter middle / mid-rear area to making better contact with the food being cut and the board.

Mrmnms
07-03-2013, 07:58 AM
Are you serious? This guy gets abused and mocked on this thread and gets banned when he responds? What is going on here? As a member I am disappointed and embarrassed about this. This kind of bs doesn't bother anyone else?

franzb69
07-03-2013, 08:05 AM
Are you serious? This guy gets abused and mocked on this thread and gets banned when he responds? What is going on here? As a member I am disappointed and embarrassed about this. This kind of bs doesn't bother anyone else?

i know i am, thank you for actually letting it be heard. embarrassed is the very least of what i'm feeling here. specially from a successful knife maker / designer like Ken. You are not the only one.

scotchef38
07-03-2013, 09:10 AM
Are you serious? This guy gets abused and mocked on this thread and gets banned when he responds? What is going on here? As a member I am disappointed and embarrassed about this. This kind of bs doesn't bother anyone else?
I agree.

Dave Martell
07-03-2013, 10:05 AM
Are you serious? This guy gets abused and mocked on this thread and gets banned when he responds? What is going on here? As a member I am disappointed and embarrassed about this. This kind of bs doesn't bother anyone else?


i know i am, thank you for actually letting it be heard. embarrassed is the very least of what i'm feeling here. specially from a successful knife maker / designer like Ken. You are not the only one.


I agree.


I didn't flip the switch on Ken but I know enough to comment so I figured I'd throw in what I can to help you understand what's happened/happening here with regards to Ken's situation.

Ken banned himself. He violated the terms of use in several ways, first he created a user account in his business name, then he commented negatively on the negative reviews that his products were/are receiving here, and finally he acted in an ungentlemanly manner with his responses. This was all from his first and second posts - meaning he was here ONLY to stop his bad press - not to contribute to the KKF community in anyway positive.

Now he's enlisted the help of 2 friends, or has created fake accounts himself (one has the same IP address as his), to come in here to further stir the pot - nothing else.

JBroida
07-03-2013, 10:21 AM
in his defense, we did bombard him here and his business name also happens to be the name he goes by

Dave Martell
07-03-2013, 10:31 AM
He was a member for a year and never once contributed a single word before commenting on his products. He's obviously not interested in contributing to the community. If he's here to read and study then he can still do that but he won't be jumping into his product reviews anymore.

Jim
07-03-2013, 10:36 AM
It is a difficult situation, do we want a community here where someone can freely post their thoughts about a product? If we do then as a consequence subscribed vendors and "drive by vendors" will have to agree to the guidelines or be removed from the membership rolls.
What other options do we have? how much time does anyone really expect our all volunteer group to spend on each incident?

As the site continues to grow these issues will only become more frequent. I am very discouraged about how the community has become polarised here.. I have no real answers on that other than to say that what is best for the community here is always going to be my goal and I will continue to encourage the team to keep that in mind as we struggle to make this the best site on topic that it can be.
Managing the KKF for what is best for one vendor or one member will drive a stake in the heart of the KKF.

JBroida
07-03-2013, 10:36 AM
at the end of the day, its your call (well, you, the mods, and the admin)... i was just making a point as to how it might appear to some of us who dont know more... sometimes an explanation would be nice when things like this happen

shaneg
07-03-2013, 10:45 AM
Just had a look at his profile, he's been a member since July 2012..
One thing that's always hard to take is criticism, especially of your own work, maybe he had too many 'yes men' around him when he was designing them?
What's everyone's ones thoughts on the consentino? Knives?

Jim
07-03-2013, 10:45 AM
at the end of the day, its your call (well, you, the mods, and the admin)... i was just making a point as to how it might appear to some of us who don't know more... sometimes an explanation would be nice when things like this happen

There are forums that moderate publicly, I have always found that 99% of any issues could be resolved by a respectful PM to the other party. Calling people out in threads and or pointing out how a post or thread is not appropriate is not anything that I would be involved in nor would the rest of the team in my estimation. Keep in mind before an actual member would be removed from the membership a lot of dialogue and requests would have occurred between the team and the member- do we really want that aired for review and comment.

JBroida
07-03-2013, 10:50 AM
not necessarily, but in cases like this where many are confused, it might be helpful

Jim
07-03-2013, 11:03 AM
not necessarily, but in cases like this where many are confused, it might be helpful

I am sorry to say I have to disagree- without context and the background it would only add more confusion and acrimony.

Mrmnms
07-03-2013, 01:45 PM
He was practically assaulted and he responded twice, negatively. "ungentlemanly", ... really. Nothing personal Dave, but I've read some of your comments here about people you hold in contempt, whether justified or not. This pales by comparison. I have a problem digesting all the selfserving bs tossed around here at times. Well intended as all this may be, I am reminded that the road to hell is paved with "good intentions". I suppose I'll be banned now too.
I didn't flip the switch on Ken but I know enough to comment so I figured I'd throw in what I can to help you understand what's happened/happening here with regards to Ken's situation.

Ken banned himself. He violated the terms of use in several ways, first he created a user account in his business name, then he commented negatively on the negative reviews that his products were/are receiving here, and finally he acted in an ungentlemanly manner with his responses. This was all from his first and second posts - meaning he was here ONLY to stop his bad press - not to contribute to the KKF community in anyway positive.

Now he's enlisted the help of 2 friends, or has created fake accounts himself (one has the same IP address as his), to come in here to further stir the pot - nothing else.

labor of love
07-03-2013, 02:20 PM
i have had plenty of time with the ken onion shun chef knife, and as far as i can tell its the worst chef knife at that price point that i have ever used. I blasted the knife early on this thread because it really does perform like a piece of crap. No use crying over spilt milk that knife really does blow. sorry ken onions feeling mightve gotten hurt. maybe they needed to be. the guy makes quite a nice living selling his knives, he has plenty of fans and getting approval or accolades from this forum im sure means very little to him. futhermore, if he cant honor the rules like everyone else here does he really shouldnt be part of the discussion.

Salty dog
07-03-2013, 02:30 PM
Crap, I still need 4 more years!@!

Pfffft, That is all.

mkmk
07-03-2013, 02:36 PM
I have zero interest in the Onion knives, and don't know the guy, but given the level of criticism here, it seems reasonable to let him respond. This place has enough of an insider vibe and powerful home team bias already, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to allow some latitude to someone like Ken Onion (who is not going to be operating here as a vendor, given both the nature of this community's tastes and the wide distribution his knives already have). People pile on here pretty readily, and he deserves an opportunity to respond.

labor of love
07-03-2013, 02:40 PM
Even though I don't like his knives, I too think it would be fair to find some kind of way to let him respond to the criticism. Maybe somewhere else outside of the forum?

Salty dog
07-03-2013, 02:48 PM
I have to agree.

Having had the opportunity of trying several respected maker's early work (The word "naïve" comes to mind) the dialogue here has proven to be very beneficial not only to the vendors but the community as a whole. To stifle that in any way would be opposite of what this place is about. I guess I've been guilty as the next guy but I'm starting to wizen up in my old age. I try to choose my words carefully.

stevenStefano
07-03-2013, 03:00 PM
Well if there's a passaround surely he can read the feedback at least so he'll hopefully gain something from it? But why treat him any different to anyone else? If he cares so much about what everyone here thinks he'll register as a vendor

Jim
07-03-2013, 03:39 PM
I have zero interest in the Onion knives, and don't know the guy, but given the level of criticism here, it seems reasonable to let him respond. This place has enough of an insider vibe and powerful home team bias already, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to allow some latitude to someone like Ken Onion (who is not going to be operating here as a vendor, given both the nature of this community's tastes and the wide distribution his knives already have). People pile on here pretty readily, and he deserves an opportunity to respond.


Even though I don't like his knives, I too think it would be fair to find some kind of way to let him respond to the criticism. Maybe somewhere else outside of the forum?


I have to agree.

Having had the opportunity of trying several respected maker's early work (The word "naïve" comes to mind) the dialogue here has proven to be very beneficial not only to the vendors but the community as a whole. To stifle that in any way would be opposite of what this place is about. I guess I've been guilty as the next guy but I'm starting to wizen up in my old age. I try to choose my words carefully.


Well if there's a passaround surely he can read the feedback at least so he'll hopefully gain something from it? But why treat him any different to anyone else? If he cares so much about what everyone here thinks he'll register as a vendor

Based on our Terms of Use to have Ken respond to anything here he would have to become a subscribing Vendor and ask for feedback in his own forum.

mkmk
07-03-2013, 03:46 PM
Then maybe the terms of use could use some revision. For someone to have to pay a high price (presumably something considerably higher than the $250 hobbyist rate) to respond to a criticism is the very definition of an exclusive, pay-to-play system. This guy isn't looking to sell here, and likely never would; he was responding to comments.

And before someone says I'm a shill, I'll repeat that I don't know Ken Onion, and have no interest in the knives. I simply don't like to see things like this degrade the credibility of the forum. And to be sure: they do.

Jim
07-03-2013, 04:06 PM
Then maybe the terms of use could use some revision. For someone to have to pay a high price (presumably something considerably higher than the $250 hobbyist rate) to respond to a criticism is the very definition of an exclusive, pay-to-play system. This guy isn't looking to sell here, and likely never would; he was responding to comments.

And before someone says I'm a shill, I'll repeat that I don't know Ken Onion, and have no interest in the knives. I simply don't like to see things like this degrade the credibility of the forum. And to be sure: they do.

This suggestion is the definition of the slippery slope- if we let anyone sign up and badger our members and use vulgar language what is next? However if you care to rewrite or edit a draft of the Terms of Use for vendors that does not shortchange the paying vendors and hobbyists, then I would be happy to look at them and the team and owners will take them into consideration.

Crothcipt
07-03-2013, 04:08 PM
When Ken first posted, I went back and reread the whole thread. I also looked at the design of the knife. It also got to thinking about would I like the handle? How about the handle with the shape of the blade? (prob. not)

Ken being a well renowned I didn't think he would want to be a craftsman here, or pay anyother higher price, not that he can't afford it. If we make a exception for him then what, who next? To me this is a learning forum at heart. The rest is well not. I myself can see learning off of what he has done and wouldn't mind sharing with others. As it is now Ken can take or leave what is offered there.

As for my original post in this thread I still say the same.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/10964-New-Ken-Onion-line?p=185140&viewfull=1#post185140

When I see that I still think about that knife. I am just hoping it is better in many other ways.

Crothcipt
07-03-2013, 04:09 PM
I have to agree.

Having had the opportunity of trying several respected maker's early work (The word "naïve" comes to mind) the dialogue here has proven to be very beneficial not only to the vendors but the community as a whole. To stifle that in any way would be opposite of what this place is about. I guess I've been guilty as the next guy but I'm starting to wizen up in my old age. I try to choose my words carefully.
+1

mkmk
07-03-2013, 04:56 PM
This suggestion is the definition of the slippery slope- if we let anyone sign up and badger our members and use vulgar language what is next? However if you care to rewrite or edit a draft of the Terms of Use for vendors that does not shortchange the paying vendors and hobbyists, then I would be happy to look at them and the team and owners will take them into consideration.

What do you charge a vendor to participate? $500? $1000? Whatever the price, your scenario that leaves no space between non-participation and full investment means that you literally have a pay-to-play environment. You shouldn't be surprised that as a result, people will see this forum as insular and exclusive with regard to brands and vendors. It's written into the DNA.

Now, maybe that's fine, and maybe you believe it's the only way you can avoid slippery slopes. What's unmistakeable, though, is that it erodes the credibility of those who DO participate as sponsors. What possible harm is inflicted on Jon or Dave by allowing Ken Onion to respond to criticisms (some legit, some obnoxious)? Conversely, how much damage is done to those same sponsors by a system that treats their products and services as so fragile that they have to be supported by censorship?

Crothcipt
07-03-2013, 05:07 PM
mmmm mkmk, you hit the nail on the head It is a exclusive club here. It was started by other sites that don't avoid slippery slopes, we have here, and kicking them off. There is many places to read about that here.

With this dna set up this place has become what others want from their forums. Am I mad that Ken can't contribute? yes. But in many ways he did that to himself. We have many makers here that participate with out any problem. Censorship, is a huge word for what you are posting about. It is a free forum, but it still costs money for it to be able to function. Any time you put that into jeopardy then you need it. I can see how having him reply on this thread can, and prob. would jeopardize that.

echerub
07-03-2013, 05:09 PM
Conversely, how much damage is done to those same sponsors by a system that treats their products and services as so fragile that they have to be supported by censorship?

There is no censorship. You can say anything you want about a KKF vendor's products. It is not protectionism for the vendors. If they make or sell something that you think deserves strong criticism, you are always welcome to do so.

What current policies are protecting is the community environment and the value placed on information sharing & learning. There are many individuals and businesses that want to use the forum purely for promotional or other commercial purposes without any evident intent to be a part of the community. It is for that reason that we have the rule about not discussing your own products or business unless you are a hobbyist or KKF vendor. Doing without that will take us down the road of turning KKF into an online market and not much more.

Our enabling one anothers' continued buying is different from someone coming in only to cash in rather than be part of the community :)

mhlee
07-03-2013, 05:39 PM
What do you charge a vendor to participate? $500? $1000? Whatever the price, your scenario that leaves no space between non-participation and full investment means that you literally have a pay-to-play environment. You shouldn't be surprised that as a result, people will see this forum as insular and exclusive with regard to brands and vendors. It's written into the DNA.

Now, maybe that's fine, and maybe you believe it's the only way you can avoid slippery slopes. What's unmistakeable, though, is that it erodes the credibility of those who DO participate as sponsors. What possible harm is inflicted on Jon or Dave by allowing Ken Onion to respond to criticisms (some legit, some obnoxious)? Conversely, how much damage is done to those same sponsors by a system that treats their products and services as so fragile that they have to be supported by censorship?

I think the one thing that's being overlooked is that most vendors here don't push their own products. Most don't even respond to criticism by members. And members have most certainly criticized knives of vendors here. Vendors generally let the members speak for their products.

I personally don't believe that Ken should be allowed to respond to criticism. Based on his posts, Ken is going to respond as a maker and defend his product. That's, ultimately, pointless.

He can say all he wants about steel, design, etc. When it comes down to it, what matters is how well his knives cut in the real world, being used by real people. The best defense of someone's product is user opinion.

Again, his best defense would be members that defend his products. If his knives are as well designed as he thinks they are, then members should be posting how much they like his knives.

But, I think the nearly complete lack of members supporting or praising his knives is very telling. And, it's not for the fact that members have not used or owned Ken's knives - I believe Rick (Theory) posted that he had one and it took months to sell. And, based on comments of other members in other threads about Ken's knives, several other members have used Ken's knives and have not been impressed by his knives at all.

As unappealing as they are, if Ken's knives were good cutters, more members would own Ken's knives. Carter's Riveted Handle SFGZ knives are an example of this in my opinion. They're kind of ugly, not inexpensive, handles were cheap, but the one I had was a great cutter. And, I'm not the only one that thinks Carter's Riveted Handle knives are good cutters.

Rather than letting the man defend his products, let his products defend themselves.

apicius9
07-03-2013, 05:44 PM
Almost makes me regret that I started this thread. I understand the rules and their reasons, but still find it unfortunate that Ken cannot comment here. While I don't know him, he seems to be a very nice guy and I would definitely like to heAr his thoughts. IMHO we should also make an effort not to criticize the man instead of his products. That said, I don't feel in a position to criticize the kitchen knives because I have not used them over any meaningful time, I just wanted to express they don't appeal to me. But I happily use a folding knife designed by Ken as my EDC.

The question that popped into my mind: Would we also ban Keijiro Doi if he commented on his knives?

Stefan

echerub
07-03-2013, 06:21 PM
No matter who it was, they would not be allowed to comment on their products. A ban is not usually the first response, but in this case Ken Onion put a bad foot forward right from the start.

mano
07-03-2013, 06:25 PM
KKF is pay-to-play for vendors and that's clear up front. We're trusting the owners/mods not to be draconian and, as Jim posted, they try to work things out with "offenders" behind the scenes before any banning.

I'm very interested in what Ken Onion had to say, but as a vendor he'd have to pay-to-say. Otherwise he could have talked to people through PM's or email. I'm guessing that's allowed.

Ken was a member for a year but didn't post or join as a vendor, and I can understand that. Given his market position and nature of his company there was little for him to gain from it and everything to lose. The average KKF member is not his customer. But we're interested in all aspects of knife making, so he'd have a rapt audience.

My observation is that when vendors post first, people here are receptive and respectful, even if they don't like the product. It's when they get pissed off when members criticize their wares that there's a blow-up. Even then, if the vendor cools off most everyone ends up playing nice.

Noodle Soup
07-03-2013, 07:09 PM
It isn't clear to me that everyone here really understands Ken does not own the company that is making this new line of knives just like he never owned Shun. He is a custom knife maker that turns out very limited numbers of high demand hand made folders and maybe a few kitchen knives to test prototype designs. His other hat is as a knife designer whose name companies will actually pay money to put on their blades. Not very many custom knifemakers ever reach that point. I have no inside knowledge of what they are paying for the privilege but I suspect it is a lot less than many would think.

ecchef
07-03-2013, 08:35 PM
Noodle, I think you underestimate the members grasp of the situation. It doesn't matter whether Ken owns the company that produces the knives or not. He 'sold' the rights to the use of his name, just like Bob Kramer. Obviously the financial gain from that far outweighed the results of having his name linked with mediocre products and the inevitable negative commentary. Chris Reeve makes fabulous folders & survival type knives, but I wouldn't use his kitchen cutlery to scrape dog poop off my boots. And I'm pretty sure that that design won some kind of award when it was introduced as well. With all the revenue that Onion makes from licensing royalties, I'm sure that he could afford the Vendor fees here and 'have his day in court' so to speak, if indeed he really gave a crap about what KKF members think.

Justin0505
07-03-2013, 08:59 PM
I think everyone had a pretty accurate understanding of Ken and his knives: a talented and successful knife maker and designer who's very good at designing / making knives for non-kitchen applications, folding / edc, utility / wackin' at stuff... but who really doesn't seem to understand (or at least design knifes that show an understanding of) the ultra-high performance kitchen applications. Time and time again we've seen very skilled and knowledgeable makers take a crack at kitchen knives and walk right into some of the pitfalls that I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.
A common trait amongst the one's that eventually "get it" is that they choke down whatever pride and ego may get in the way of learning (or the realize that failing / learning from failure is not a shameful thing, but essential) and they made a transition from "pretty bad" to "very good" in a pretty short amount of time.

I think that part of the reason why Ken's kitchen knives got blasted was that (in addition the the earlier ones being pretty bad) it seemed like he wasn't paying attention to anyone that really understood high performance kitchen cutlery and was instead approaching the designs like he already had all the answers from designing completely different types of knives and using fans, not critics, to validate his assumptions.

His posts just reinforced a hunch that I think many already had about his arrogance and rejection of criticism.

It's really a shame because there were so many ways that this situation could have gone "right": Ken could have come in early as a vendor and said "hey guys here's the project I'm working on, what do you think?" The idea of a top quality, contemporary, all American kitchen knife is one that folks on here would have been all over. In Fact, just the mention of such a knife in this thread inspired some KKF vendors and members to design their own small run of knives with L & G.. and the related posts have generated over 80pages (and counting)... imagine what the response would have been had there been a similar thread started by Ken...
There would have been criticism, but the vast majority would have been constructive and respectful. Ken could have done pass-arounds, of the development and pre-production knives. He would have generated the kind of "viral" or social buzz that sells (more) knives, and the resulting product would have sold its self to a much broader audience. It really could have been "the" breakout American knife line on a national and international level. ...and this thread never would have started the way that it did.

However, even just acting in reaction, after the thread was already spun up, Ken still could have come in as a vendor and been welcomed with open arms. Just talking about his design decisions and hearing other people's options, and, even if he disagreed, comporting himself with some dignity and class would have earned him respect and probably even some support if not the blind adoration to which he's accustomed.

Even if he didn't want to fork over the cash to come into the community as a vendor with the ability to discuses his branded products in detail in his own sub-forum, it wouldn't have been difficult to post like a human deserving of some respect and avoid the ban. I thought that it was interesting that even after his first rather obnoxious post, quite a few people wrote him very polite and welcoming responses.
I've also criticized some of the censorship and rules on here, but agree with them or not, I do know that you have to work pretty darn hard at getting yourself banned. Regardless of what else anyone thinks of him, I think that there's no doubt Ken has work ethic.

In the end, I just feel disappointed and annoyed that great potential was wasted by foolishness.

Noodle Soup
07-03-2013, 08:59 PM
I think I said it once before, but you have to enter to win at the Blade show. And to enter you need to pay for a booth. Not that many kitchen knife companies have so the potential winners have been fairly limited. Far as I know Bob Kramer has never been in the running. Maybe more kitchen knife makers should compete before that jury too. Are there any similar award programs at the big culinary trade shows? I'm biting my tongue on that "all the revenue from licensing royalties" comment.

Dave Martell
07-03-2013, 10:20 PM
He was practically assaulted and he responded twice, negatively. "ungentlemanly", ... really. Nothing personal Dave, but I've read some of your comments here about people you hold in contempt, whether justified or not. This pales by comparison. I have a problem digesting all the selfserving bs tossed around here at times. Well intended as all this may be, I am reminded that the road to hell is paved with "good intentions". I suppose I'll be banned now too.


Even though you speak some good BS you're not going to be banned by me.

Crothcipt
07-03-2013, 10:26 PM
I think everyone had a pretty accurate understanding of Ken and his knives: a talented and successful knife maker and designer who's very good at designing / making knives for non-kitchen applications, folding / edc, utility / wackin' at stuff... but who really doesn't seem to understand (or at least design knifes that show an understanding of) the ultra-high performance kitchen applications. Time and time again we've seen very skilled and knowledgeable makers take a crack at kitchen knives and walk right into some of the pitfalls that I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.
A common trait amongst the one's that eventually "get it" is that they choke down whatever pride and ego may get in the way of learning (or the realize that failing / learning from failure is not a shameful thing, but essential) and they made a transition from "pretty bad" to "very good" in a pretty short amount of time.

I think that part of the reason why Ken's kitchen knives got blasted was that (in addition the the earlier ones being pretty bad) it seemed like he wasn't paying attention to anyone that really understood high performance kitchen cutlery and was instead approaching the designs like he already had all the answers from designing completely different types of knives and using fans, not critics, to validate his assumptions.

His posts just reinforced a hunch that I think many already had about his arrogance and rejection of criticism.

It's really a shame because there were so many ways that this situation could have gone "right": Ken could have come in early as a vendor and said "hey guys here's the project I'm working on, what do you think?" The idea of a top quality, contemporary, all American kitchen knife is one that folks on here would have been all over. In Fact, just the mention of such a knife in this thread inspired some KKF vendors and members to design their own small run of knives with L & G.. and the related posts have generated over 80pages (and counting)... imagine what the response would have been had there been a similar thread started by Ken...
There would have been criticism, but the vast majority would have been constructive and respectful. Ken could have done pass-arounds, of the development and pre-production knives. He would have generated the kind of "viral" or social buzz that sells (more) knives, and the resulting product would have sold its self to a much broader audience. It really could have been "the" breakout American knife line on a national and international level. ...and this thread never would have started the way that it did.

However, even just acting in reaction, after the thread was already spun up, Ken still could have come in as a vendor and been welcomed with open arms. Just talking about his design decisions and hearing other people's options, and, even if he disagreed, comporting himself with some dignity and class would have earned him respect and probably even some support if not the blind adoration to which he's accustomed.

Even if he didn't want to fork over the cash to come into the community as a vendor with the ability to discuses his branded products in detail in his own sub-forum, it wouldn't have been difficult to post like a human deserving of some respect and avoid the ban. I thought that it was interesting that even after his first rather obnoxious post, quite a few people wrote him very polite and welcoming responses.
I've also criticized some of the censorship and rules on here, but agree with them or not, I do know that you have to work pretty darn hard at getting yourself banned. Regardless of what else anyone thinks of him, I think that there's no doubt Ken has work ethic.

In the end, I just feel disappointed and annoyed that great potential was wasted by foolishness.
Justin again you put it better than I ever could.

Dave Martell
07-03-2013, 10:26 PM
Then maybe the terms of use could use some revision. For someone to have to pay a high price (presumably something considerably higher than the $250 hobbyist rate) to respond to a criticism is the very definition of an exclusive, pay-to-play system. This guy isn't looking to sell here, and likely never would; he was responding to comments.

And before someone says I'm a shill, I'll repeat that I don't know Ken Onion, and have no interest in the knives. I simply don't like to see things like this degrade the credibility of the forum. And to be sure: they do.


Why the hell should Ken Onion be afforded any special treatment here? He designs knives that people here don't like and they say so and for that he deserves the right to "respond to criticism"? Yeah I'm not agreeing with that at all.

ecchef
07-03-2013, 10:27 PM
And to enter you need to pay for a booth.
Just like here...rules are rules.

I agree that it would be great if more kitchen knife makers would compete. Beats me why they aren't doing so already.

I don't understand why my '"royalties" comment would raise your blood pressure so much. Is it wrong to think that he's profiting from sales? It sounds like you may have some insider information about Mr. Onion. Anything constructive to share with the community?

Dave Martell
07-03-2013, 10:31 PM
What do you charge a vendor to participate? $500? $1000? Whatever the price, your scenario that leaves no space between non-participation and full investment means that you literally have a pay-to-play environment. You shouldn't be surprised that as a result, people will see this forum as insular and exclusive with regard to brands and vendors. It's written into the DNA.

Now, maybe that's fine, and maybe you believe it's the only way you can avoid slippery slopes. What's unmistakeable, though, is that it erodes the credibility of those who DO participate as sponsors. What possible harm is inflicted on Jon or Dave by allowing Ken Onion to respond to criticisms (some legit, some obnoxious)? Conversely, how much damage is done to those same sponsors by a system that treats their products and services as so fragile that they have to be supported by censorship?


You're missing the point here completely. The idea is that Ken doesn't have the right to badger members offering an honest review. The idea that he can't comment on his products is a secondary issue. Also note, and this is important, that we wouldn't allow a paying vendor (that's a full paid up full fledge supporting vendor) to badger a member over a negative review either.

And yes this is a pay to play forum with regards to commercial entities. All others are welcome for free though, yourself included.

mr drinky
07-03-2013, 10:58 PM
F**k. I missed all of this drama and didn't even get to see Ken's response. Maybe there is something cached out in the inter webs. But reading all the responses and not having the basic information to understand anything, I sort of find myself agreeing with everyone.

k.

Noodle Soup
07-03-2013, 11:19 PM
My blood pressure is not up but from years in the business I know way too many people think they can doodle something on a piece of paper resembling a knife and then "kick back" living the easy life off the royalties. My name is on two different knives, neither kitchen knives, and my royalties last year totaled $700. Real life changer right? I've been asked many times to design knives for one company or another, usually the payment ends up being a free knife at the end. If Ken is doing better than that I'm all for him.

SpikeC
07-03-2013, 11:25 PM
I get really annoyed by people who come waltzing in here thinking that the forum should conform to their ideas of how things should be run. The terms of use are very carefully worked out from a lot of experience with what works and what doesn't. People who come here and make trouble seem to have ulterior motives that are not apparent to the casual observer. Either that or they are just ignorant of how the real world works.

Burl Source
07-03-2013, 11:33 PM
Me......I'm kind of embarrassed.
Unless Mr. Onion's post was edited or removed I think he showed remarkable restraint to what I see as abusive comments.
It is one thing to say "I don't like it because....". That is a personal opinion.
But I think a number of the posts went well beyond that.

I am not sure how it is working in restaurants these days. Maybe verbal abuse is ok.
But around here if you tell someone to take the abuse and man up, that is the same thing as saying "take that you pussy".
When that happens you have to knock them on their butt.

Bram
07-03-2013, 11:46 PM
F**k. I missed all of this drama and didn't even get to see Ken's response. Maybe there is something cached out in the inter webs. But reading all the responses and not having the basic information to understand anything, I sort of find myself agreeing with everyone.

Ken's response - well, there were 2 of them - are in the thread, and from what I can see no post of his was deleted. I read through the whole thing and found I couldn't agree with everything here. Hope no one minds me saying so as a new member, but I think the response to Ken has been quite harsh. Not the knife criticism (don't know; never tried one) but to his involvement here. He first wrote:


I'll just leave this thread alone. Thanks for the feedback. Have a wonderful day.

And then his 2nd and final comment was:


Man Up ? Maybe you should school me on how to design and manufacture a decent kitchen knife based on your extensive background. I'll be sure to check back tomorrow for some insight from you.

For this he has been criticised, it seems, because it was a negative and defensive comment. It implies he would know more than other members on knife design, but this is the only 'defense' of his knives he made - barely anything at all, as he did 'just leave this thread alone' for some time. Moreover, in the end I think the 2nd comment wasn't addressed to people in general. Rather, it was a response to the preceding comment which I thought sounded more severe:


lovely, a martyr. man up. you might produce a decent kitchen knife, if you do.

It seems the rules are what they are, but he should at least have been allowed to respond to a personal attack as he did. And I wouldn't say it was necessarily 'ungentlemanly' either.

Note: I have zero connection to this guy and no interest, aside from the discussion here. Yes, the knives do look like junk.

franzb69
07-04-2013, 12:24 AM
People pile on here pretty readily, and he deserves an opportunity to respond.

i am with you on this.


Even though I don't like his knives, I too think it would be fair to find some kind of way to let him respond to the criticism. Maybe somewhere else outside of the forum?

somewhere neutral would be a good idea.


It seems the rules are what they are, but he should at least have been allowed to respond to a personal attack as he did. And I wouldn't say it was necessarily 'ungentlemanly' either.

i would have loved to hear what he wanted to say also.

apicius9
07-04-2013, 12:42 AM
I was just thinking about this, and please just ignore me if that doesn't make sense or you have thought about this already (my students usually ignore me, so why shouldn't you...):

Isn't there a way in such a case to give people some kind of grace period, at least if the dialogue is not initiated by the respective person? ? Something like 'I see you are a knifemaker and you entered here in a discussion about your knives. We welcome your input, but please be aware that we only allow a 2-week grace period after which you are required to decide if you want to become a paying member or stop contributing anything that falls under the vendor privilege.' I have a feeling that many of us would welcome input from other knifemakers and appreciate a dialogue, and I found the - what appears to be - immediate ban in this case a bit harsh. Just contemplating how we could invite them rather than brushing them off. Of course, anybody who actively comes in with 'Here are my products, go buy them!' would still be SPAM.

Stefan

tk59
07-04-2013, 01:15 AM
For what it's worth, I didn't read through this entire thread but I have used one of the original Onion Shun chef's knife and did not find it was particularly nice. It was serviceable in terms of cutting ability but heavy and awkward depending on the technique. As for how this all unfolded, it seems like the lesson is if you are a vendor, make sure people can't tell that's what you are unless you're paying. Seems fair to me although I've seen a few posts from former vendors but those are few and far between. Regardless, I don't think it's a big deal. As several folks mentioned, he doesn't need this forum, he clearly didn't benefit from any of the discussion that happened over the years on this and the previous forum and he certainly contributed nothing to this one. I'm pretty confident there is nothing earth shattering in the design of the knives. It looks different, kinda like a knuckle-sandwich looks different. I'm sure there are plenty of folks that are happy with either.

mr drinky
07-04-2013, 01:22 AM
Bram, you are correct. His responses are in thread. I just read up to my last post but didn't realize I had missed his response even earlier. So with my ignorance exposed, I do think a solution like Sefan's would be cool -- and would be a bich to be administered by the mods. But aren't we all a bit bitchy about knives? And that is sort of cool.

So I write this as I am watching on YouTube an old episode of "It's Your Move" with Jason Bateman. What an awesome smartass.

k.

Crothcipt
07-04-2013, 01:29 AM
Bram, you are correct. His responses are in thread. I just read up to my last post but didn't realize I had missed his response even earlier. So with my ignorance exposed, I do think a solution like Sefan's would be cool -- and would be a bich to be administered by the mods. But aren't we all a bit bitchy about knives? And that is sort of cool.

So I write this as I am watching on YouTube an old episode of "It's Your Move" with Jason Bateman. What an awesome smartass.

k.

Loved that show. He really made his mark with that. Didn't help that his sister was doing better than him at the time. I thought the show had a lot more legs, but the people liked Dynasty (die nastly) better.

Back to our regularly scheduled Ken Onion thread.

Saccogoo
07-04-2013, 01:55 AM
It seems the rules are what they are, but he should at least have been allowed to respond to a personal attack as he did. And I wouldn't say it was necessarily 'ungentlemanly' either.

Edipis is the KKF's Internet Tough Guy. Quick to dish it out from behind his keyboard that's missing the caps/shift button function, but runs and hides when he's confronted (or just puts you on ignore when he's mentally overmatched, which is most likely 98.7% of the time).

Telling Ken to "man up," but most likely knowing that he's going to get the ban hammer by simply posting here is complete chicken ****. However, I, like Ken, have continued to check back in this thread to see if he'll actually produce some insight into designing, manufacturing, marketing and distributing a decent kitchen knife.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SZzSYmCJb8o/Tbh9Rsk8REI/AAAAAAAAAHg/v3ANQ-gP5rs/s1600/Waiting.jpg

However, on to the knife, which, interestingly enough, I was looking at the KO/Chef Works Rain last night after having finished massaging my pinky finger on my cutting hand for several hours in an effort to regain feeling in said digit due to using a straight ass octagonal handled knife to chop through four cases of squash and zucchini which left my finger numb. My original intent was looking at possible new jackets as I like their fit through the shoulders and the chest when I noticed that they had the new knifes up to view. I became intrigued due to the use of the Carpenter steel (Harner is using the XHP more and more and cutting performance and the ability to hold an edge seems to be a theme with a lot of the Carpenter steels, though I'm not aware of anyone currently using the BZD1 other than this series) and the no-nonsense handle material. I haven't used a KO knife before, but I'm willing to try anything in an effort to help alleviate the fatigue I often experience at work due to the sheer volume of mats I process on a daily basis. D and Octagonal handles just don't translate well in this regard regardless of how freaking sharp my knives are.

The steel potential, the no-nonsense, high durability handle material, the slightly smaller belly on the CW/KO Rain versus the KO Shun's and the purported ergonomics seems very encouraging - at least to my specific needs. I plan on picking up the KO/CW Rain 10" Chef's when available and giving it a hard core test drive right out of the gate.

chinacats
07-04-2013, 02:34 AM
^^ ?? ^^

Ignore...?

labor of love
07-04-2013, 02:35 AM
^^ ?? ^^

Ignore...?
+1
good ole edipis breathes fire, but i dont think hes hiding from anyone.

panda
07-04-2013, 02:46 AM
ive used a ko and hated it, friend of mine loved it and wants to get one. diff shoes for diff people. and then you have this internet drama garbage, people talking smack and others crying about it...

Gator
07-04-2013, 03:28 AM
Edipis is the KKF's Internet Tough Guy.
Dude, in 9(so far) posts you managed to attack and insult about half a dozen forum members.


Quick to dish it out from behind his keyboard that's missing the caps/shift button function,
Well, judging by posts you do type faster than he does... Certainly you have no probs dishing it out en masse either, to forumites and to Japanese makers alike.


but runs and hides when he's confronted (or just puts you on ignore when he's mentally overmatched, which is most likely 98.7% of the time).
Alternatively, he doesn't want to continue bickering?


I, like Ken, have continued to check back in this thread to see if he'll actually produce some insight into designing, manufacturing, marketing and distributing a decent kitchen knife.
Not so sure about your reasons for checking back, considering that you did produce a lot of inflammatory material in record short time.


The steel potential, the no-nonsense, high durability handle material,
BDZ1 steel potential? What is no no-nonsense handle material BTW? Most of the time you get paracord or something boxy, all in the name of no nonsense durability.

mr drinky
07-04-2013, 03:32 AM
Wow. On one hand (am about to have many many hands) I feel defensive about characterizing Edipis that way. I don't agree with that and attacking established members is not a great way to build cred. On the other hand (this is the second hand) I kind of would love to see some interaction with Ken Onion if he were open to it on a regular basis and not just defending a product. And then on the other hand (3rd one), Dave is correct in that he hasn't participated in the forum. But there is that one hand (4th hand), where saccogoo chimes in and he only has posted in response to Shun and Onion knives only. Seems suspicious and makes me think the policy of the forum makes sense.

I think I am just going to drink more alcohol.

And btw, here are my 2 cents. I used to hate wa handles and now I love them. Even if Ken Onion had rave reviews of his steel, geometry, profile etc. I would shy away from his knives because of the handles alone. Ken Onion handles are the exact opposite of wa handles IMO. I've only handled a couple Onion knives, but wa handles give maxium flexibility while sacrificing contours and the other (Onions) channels the hand and fixes it in place. That is not to my liking.

But what do I know.

k.

kalaeb
07-04-2013, 04:08 AM
I think I am just going to drink more alcohol.



How about a PBR?

mr drinky
07-04-2013, 04:24 AM
I wish I had one.

k.

jaybett
07-04-2013, 05:24 AM
My two cents.

When a thread is started, by a forum member, that is critical of a vendor, or it becomes negative. It seems fair that the vendor be given an opportunity to respond, but only in that thread.

Jay

knyfeknerd
07-04-2013, 10:11 AM
meh

Saccogoo
07-04-2013, 03:35 PM
Dude, in 9(so far) posts you managed to attack and insult about half a dozen forum members.

Have I? By highlighting someone's degradation of a certain brand because of their "heat treat" but then finding out that they have zero actual knowledge of said "heat treat?" The only real time I've "insulted" someone was after Edipis went after me in another thread. I'm agnostic, so I'm not into the whole "turn the other cheek" stuff.



Well, judging by posts you do type faster than he does... Certainly you have no probs dishing it out en masse either, to forumites and to Japanese makers alike.

See above. And I have plenty of Japanese knives.



Not so sure about your reasons for checking back, considering that you did produce a lot of inflammatory material in record short time.

Of course you are sure of my reasons for checking back. I wanted to see Edipis explain to Knife Makers Hall of Fame member Ken Onion how to design, build, market, distribute and sell a decent knife. I was expecting one of two things: 1. An epiphany level moment where we were all going to be enlightened in the entire encompassing, systematic procedure for front to back production/commerce of knife capitalism; or 2. Slapstick comedy gold.

Either way, it was going to be a win.


What is no no-nonsense handle material BTW?

Material that I don't have to worry about in terms of maintenance in a professional kitchen. When I'm cutting mats for three or four hours straight with no breaks, I don't want to worry about the effects that foodstuff residue is going to have on my blade or handle. It's nice to have a pretty piece of art in the bag for those specific occasions, but when I'm working, I want a knife that works. Functionally hard, corrosion resistant steel that will hold an edge over the course of a big job and a handle that will do the same while providing high level ergonomics. That's my holy grail, if you will. And, in reality, I really only need one knife to fill these requirements - a longer chefs. I've got the boning, deba, yanagiba, suji/slicer, bread, paring, veg cleaver, nakiri, et al. for other specific functions. I'd just like that one "perfect" workhorse main knife that fits the above requirements. I've yet to find it.


But there is that one hand (4th hand), where saccogoo chimes in and he only has posted in response to Shun and Onion knives only. Seems suspicious and makes me think the policy of the forum makes sense.

No reason to be suspicious. I don't have any ties to Shun/Kai other than owning a couple of their knives. I'd just like to see some application of the purported objectivity that this board is supposedly based on, but seems to lack regarding certain knife manufacturers because of one thing or another (mainly general popularity/availability - which, in itself, led to my "knife hipster" comment/observation). I see guys talking out there ass about one thing or another about certain brands and forgive me if I call them on it. I'm really just trying to be objectively altruistic in terms of the purity of the knife and it's function. Well, and that and I tend to humor myself with a bit of hyperbole from time to time.

SpikeC
07-04-2013, 07:14 PM
Ya, you like to humor yourself, alright.

unkajonet
07-04-2013, 07:27 PM
Everyone: please keep it civil.

mkriggen
07-04-2013, 07:38 PM
Everyone: please keep it civil.:laughat:

:peace:

Burl Source
07-04-2013, 08:25 PM
http://youtu.be/AvDvTnTGjgQ

CanadianMan
07-04-2013, 09:44 PM
I like popcorn, especially when Lars, The Swedish chef makes it:thumbsup:

SpikeC
07-04-2013, 09:47 PM
I like popcorn with a PBR.
PBR is a good basic lager that you can get in a tavern for 2 buck a pint, 1.50 at happy hour. Right now it's Lagunitas though. Now that is hip. Coming from an old hippy.

Lucretia
07-04-2013, 09:52 PM
Lars makes popcorn shrimp. Har!

Add Gershon Kingsley and it's hard to beat.

ajhuff
07-04-2013, 10:14 PM
This whole brouhaha is because we've all been on the internet for years and we've all been on forums for years. So we all know how to post on a forum. A la Ken Onion. But, when you come to KKF no one except for the insiders know all the hidden rules you have to abide by untile after you break one and whack! You get your account suspended no warning.


From reading all of the mods posts it seems clear no friendly explanation was given. Black and white, zero tolerance.

I think Stephan's proposal is the right direction. sometimes people just don't know.

-AJ

ajhuff
07-04-2013, 10:41 PM
but other than that, yeah rules are rules and I agree about not having vendors comments in the general population.

-AJ

Dave Martell
07-04-2013, 11:46 PM
This whole brouhaha is because we've all been on the internet for years and we've all been on forums for years. So we all know how to post on a forum. A la Ken Onion. But, when you come to KKF no one except for the insiders know all the hidden rules you have to abide by untile after you break one and whack! You get your account suspended no warning.


From reading all of the mods posts it seems clear no friendly explanation was given. Black and white, zero tolerance.




Each member agrees to our Terms of Use BEFORE they can join or make a post. There are ZERO "hidden rules" here at KKF.

AJ, once again you're stirring the pot and once again I'm noting it. I wonder how long you'll be given leeway to break the "hidden rules" before your account is suspended....first time...no warning.....zero tolerance? Doesn't sound like that's the case with you, eh?

ThEoRy
07-04-2013, 11:50 PM
The only real time I've "insulted" someone was after Edipis went after me in another thread.




No, you directly insulted me earlier as well remember? Unprovoked I might add.





You see, you are the guy I described...you just didn't realize that you have become one of the fixie riding, PBR swilling smelly hipsters of the knife world.

Now that wasn't very nice. For what reason was this insult hurled by the way? In no way whatsoever did I personally attack you or insult you in any manner. I briefly explained why most here (myself included from personal Shun knife usage) don't care for the overpriced blades and your response was an ad hominem or worse, name calling. That's like the lowest form of countering a central point. The fact is from my personal usage of Shun knives, there is a lot better knife out there for the dollar. They just don't cut that great or stay as sharp as similarly or lesser priced knives. How does that make me smelly?

Gravy Power
07-05-2013, 01:18 AM
...

tkern
07-05-2013, 02:03 AM
This conversation has become terribly unproductive and has digressed into childish name calling. Reviews and complaints should always be welcome but personal grievances and attacks should be kept to private messages or better yet, not be offended so easily and let petty crap go. I'd be interested in Ken Onion's opinions on knives and why he chose the designs he has. Not defend, just give an insight to the thought process. I also think that everyone else who has chirped in has valid opinions and thoughts as well as a wealth of experience in using knives that shouldn't be dismissed. It always seems that we're verging on a civil, well rounded conversation but people let their emotions get ahead of their practicality in discussing a knife with an online community half or more of which are complete strangers.

ChuckTheButcher
07-05-2013, 02:07 AM
I am not at all a fan. I sent an intern home once for bringing a ken onion knife. I told him to go get a proper knife.

shaneg
07-05-2013, 05:22 AM
I am not at all a fan. I sent an intern home once for bringing a ken onion knife. I told him to go get a proper knife.
Haha, that made me laugh..

kpeddie2010
07-05-2013, 07:39 AM
I think 26 years in kitchens, 70 hour weeks with a knife in hand does make me an expert....


errrrr
i need 9 more years

Chef Niloc
07-09-2013, 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by ThEoRy
Crap, I still need 4 more years!@!

Pfffft, That is all.

Your making me feel old....

On the subject when the KO shun knife first came out I ran out and bought one , thought it was the coolest looking chef knife ever. Not long after owning it did I learn that looks was just about all it had to offer, and looking back I must of been wearing beer goggles. The knife was thick, impossible to sharpen and heavy in all the wrong places. I was however glad that I got $250 for it on eBay, big +

Crothcipt
07-20-2013, 08:47 PM
Went looking to see if these are out yet. Not yet, they are in stock. Also found this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCcRA6r71yI

Not a bad presentation, I am glad the whole thing wasn't of her "rock chopping".

EdipisReks
07-20-2013, 08:53 PM
the profile of that knife makes my wrist hurt, just looking at it. I really love the part where she is describing the knife as having no dragging or tearing, while cutting an eggplant in which it's clearly dragging a lot. Nice looking espresso machine, though!

Crothcipt
07-20-2013, 08:54 PM
lol ya I keep thinking that got even bigger sweep since the last time I saw it.

brainsausage
07-21-2013, 12:48 AM
It didn't look that 'easy' to cut through that onion based on how her guide hand was shaking to hold said onion in place. Truth in advertising...

Chef Niloc
07-21-2013, 12:59 AM
Can some one Edit that video to put her side by side with Saltys onion chopping vid?

Lucretia
07-21-2013, 01:19 AM
The most amazing thing about that video is that for someone who grew up in Georgia, she has NO accent.

brainsausage
07-21-2013, 01:40 AM
She does, she's just trying to hide it. Another symptom of the normalizing of America. Don't show your differences!

Lucretia
07-21-2013, 01:44 AM
Probably spent a lot of $$$ on a voice coach so she could talk "right".

Crothcipt
07-21-2013, 01:57 AM
Nothing worse than having someone on the phone with a deep southern accent that no one can understand. Some people can pull it off, but most NO WAY. (which I find sad)

Fran Rendina
09-09-2013, 08:31 PM
I love my ken onion shun chef knife, it feels great in my hand sharp as can be . Ken your the man, I will go one better I like the onion better then the Kramer, I'm looking to cell my brand new bob Kramer Z 10 inch chef knife 360 if anyone is interested.

EdipisReks
09-09-2013, 08:38 PM
I love my ken onion shun chef knife, it feels great in my hand sharp as can be . Ken your the man, I will go one better I like the onion better then the Kramer, I'm looking to cell my brand new bob Kramer Z 10 inch chef knife 360 if anyone is interested.

interesting use of the language.

Salty dog
09-09-2013, 09:56 PM
What are mats?

brainsausage
09-09-2013, 11:36 PM
I love my ken onion shun chef knife, it feels great in my hand sharp as can be . Ken your the man, I will go one better I like the onion better then the Kramer, I'm looking to cell my brand new bob Kramer Z 10 inch chef knife 360 if anyone is interested.

Ummm...

CrisAnderson27
09-11-2013, 02:50 AM
the profile of that knife makes my wrist hurt, just looking at it. I really love the part where she is describing the knife as having no dragging or tearing, while cutting an eggplant in which it's clearly dragging a lot. Nice looking espresso machine, though!


It didn't look that 'easy' to cut through that onion based on how her guide hand was shaking to hold said onion in place. Truth in advertising...

Agreed on both points. I've never seen any of the professionals around here who push cut have to draw the knife back like that just to make sure there's no connecting product left. Welcome to the world of pregnant belly knives. On the onion cut...yeah, guide hand shaking and a blade that won't bite enough not to slip off...and then steer out once its in the cut. I could see that with some types of product, maybe (big maybe?)...but an onion?

I'll pass.

Cool finish though. Kinda.

Brad Gibson
09-11-2013, 04:57 AM
ken onions are for culinary graduates. lets keep it that way please. :cheffry:

CanadianMan
09-11-2013, 09:09 AM
hopefully culinary grads learnt something at school and will stay away from that blade. Home cooks that know nothing about a good knife will gravitate towards a ken onion.

Justin0505
09-11-2013, 02:02 PM
What are mats?

Dunno, I was wondering the same thing. Whatever they are, when you spend 3-4hrs hacking at them w/ a Shun, you get and owie on your pinkie finger. Thank Jebus Ken came along with this new series, which I'm sure will solve this problem. They may not look so good when cutting an onion in that video (ironic), but I'm sure that they will work REALLY well on "mats", which, once you become an expert in a few years, you'll discover are the true bain of the kitchen pro.

Justin0505
09-15-2013, 02:32 AM
I was at a large, local independant kitchen store (kitchen window in MSP) and was surprised to see that they had a pretty large selection of the new Onion Rain knives.
It was near the end of the day and I didn't want to waste too much of the staff's time, so I didn't take many pics, but I did give them a pretty thorough once over.

Sometimes I really hate being right, but pretty much everything that I feared these knives to be was confirmed: horrible profiles (with the exception of the regular paring; they didnt have the reverse model): ridiculous handles, and almost meat-cleaver thick behind the edge.

To Lamson's credit; it looks like they did a good job executing a terrible design. Every contour of the turd handles where smooth, symmetrical, well finished and well attached to the blades. Neither the spines or choils were eased, but the weird "rain" finish was executed cleanly, and the blades all appeared true/strait and the distal tapers where even. As I said, the grinds where thick and ugly, but I have no idea if that was to Ken's spec or not, but if he got so many (much simpler) parts of the design so wrong, I'm willing to assume that he didn't know what the grind and thickness behind the edge should look like either.

These knives are worse than the Shuns.

This was perhaps one of the strongest emotional reactions I've ever had to seeing a knife and it was certainly the most negative. Seeing these knives actually made me both sad and pissed off. All of the elements are there to make a game-changing line of American knives: Great materials, skilled manufacturing, a famous name, great distribution / sales network, and it was all ruined by stupid, ignorant, arrogant, wrong-headedness. What a ******* joke and what an inexcusable waste of an opportunity that much more deserving designers would have killed for.
Please avoid giving this ass-clown any money.

here's a crappy pic befitting the crappy subject matter:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EOep2uT7C3E/UjVAKWtJKmI/AAAAAAAAMz0/xlqc32h6794/s1023/IMAG0115.jpg

CrisAnderson27
09-15-2013, 02:36 AM
I was at large local independant kitchen store (kitchen window in MSP) and was surprised to see that they had a pretty large selection of the new Onion Rain knives.
It was near the end of the day and I didn't want to waste too much of the staff's time, so I didn't take many pics, I did give them a pretty thorough once over.

Sometimes I really hate being right, but pretty much everything that I feared these knives to be was confirmed: horrible profiles (with the exception of the regular paring; they didnt have the reverse model): ridiculous handles, and almost meat-cleaver thick behind the edge.

To Lamson's credit; it looks like they did a good job executing a terrible design. Every contour of the turd handles where smooth, symmetrical, well finished and well attached to the blades. Neither the spines or choils were eased, but the weird "rain" finish was executed cleanly, and the blades all appeared true and the distal tapers where even. As I said, the grinds where thick and ugly, but I have no idea if that was to Ken's spec or not, but if he got so many (much simpler) parts of the design so wrong, I'm willing to assume that he didn't know what the grind and thickness behind the edge should look like either.

These knives are worse than the Shuns.

Seeing these knives actually made me both sad and pissed off. All of the elements are there to make a game-changing line of American knives: Great materials, skilled manufacturing, a famous name, great distribution / sales network, and it was all ruined by stupid, ignorant, arrogant, wrong-headedness. What a ******* joke and what an inexcusable waste of an opportunity that much more deserving designers would have killed for.
Please avoid giving this ass-clown any money.

here's a crappy pic befitting the crappy subject matter:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EOep2uT7C3E/UjVAKWtJKmI/AAAAAAAAMz0/xlqc32h6794/s1023/IMAG0115.jpg

But...but, they look cool!

He'll sell billions for that reason alone.../sigh!

JBroida
09-15-2013, 02:38 AM
one thing that drives me crazy about the handle design is that its almost impossible to thin the blade behind the edge near the heel.

CrisAnderson27
09-15-2013, 02:44 AM
A girl I've been seeing recently has a couple of the Ken Onion Shun's. I brought over Son's Forgecraft Wednesday night to cook her dinner after work. When she saw me cutting red skin potatoes with my knife...she said 'Wow, that looks like it cuts easy!! Can I try?'. I told her sure, and handed her the knife. The FIRST thing she did was cup her hand around it in a C shape (index and ring fingers around the north end, thumb around the south), and lined the knife up directly across the centerline (like the ₵ symbol). Luckily I was watching and literally yelled at her to stop lol. When I asked her what the hell she was doing, she replied 'What?! I have to get the knife started!!'. NO JOKE. So I took her hands and showed her how to cup the potato over the top of the spine. She cut it...and her eyes literally lit up. Then when I told her 'Now imagine if you'd left your fingers under there to 'start' the cut...'...her expression was priceless. She had literally never had experience with anything even close to resembling a real kitchen knife...and even with out of the box Shun's...had never cut herself doing things in such an incredibly irresponsible manner.

If these are worse, it kind of makes me want to cry a little.

brainsausage
09-15-2013, 03:25 AM
But...but, they look cool!

He'll sell billions for that reason alone.../sigh!

These look like props in a uber goth, z grade vamp flick.

Johnny.B.Good
09-15-2013, 03:37 AM
I think they're hideous.

chefcomesback
09-15-2013, 04:41 AM
one thing that drives me crazy about the handle design is that its almost impossible to thin the blade behind the edge near the heel.Jon , I don't think any potential buyers will know what sharpening or thinning means

JBroida
09-15-2013, 04:43 AM
i'm sure... its just something that drives me crazy personally

Timthebeaver
09-15-2013, 05:20 AM
Winner of Blade Magazine’s Kitchen Knife of the Year Award 2013. Must be good. The cynic in me says they just look like a rehash of the Shun Onions, made by an inferior manufacturer though.

Justin0505
09-15-2013, 05:23 AM
one thing that drives me crazy about the handle design is that its almost impossible to thin the blade behind the edge near the heel.

lol forget about thinning, you couldn't even sharpen most of those at the proper angle.

split0101
09-15-2013, 08:07 AM
So I took her hands and showed her how to cup the potato over the top of the spine. She cut it...and her eyes literally lit up.

As I read this, I instantly got flashbacks of the movie Ghost and the pottery wheel scene. I hope it worked out for you the same way, lol. ;)

mr drinky
09-15-2013, 01:25 PM
...Every contour of the turd handles were smooth, symmetrical, well finished and well attached to the blades.

At least the F&F on the turd handle is good ;)

k.

CrisAnderson27
09-15-2013, 02:34 PM
As I read this, I instantly got flashbacks of the movie Ghost and the pottery wheel scene. I hope it worked out for you the same way, lol. ;)

HAHA! Well, there was some cooling and eating in between, and a really lame movie, but eventually...yeah...something like that =p.

Gravy Power
09-19-2013, 02:33 AM
So tonight in my Fine Dining class at school, a student breaks out a Ken Onion Shun Bread knife. Not a fan of Onion's or Shun's, but the weird handle/bolster actually works in this setup. Asked him about it and he said he would never use a knife with that bolster on anything but a bread knife, I quickly agreed. It actually fit quite well. He said he got it through another student who had a hookup (I think the person worked at SLT) for $30. I was like, "man, I would pay $30 for this all day." It could have used a little length, seemed to be around 210 mm, and wasn't quite a MAC or Tojiro, but for the price, hell yes. It had a scalloped edge by the way. I told him if he came here he could learn how to sharpen it (it needed it), but hey, that stuff is way beyond my patience and ability, and the other students as well, after seeing his other edges.