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Lefty
03-06-2013, 11:48 AM
^ I like this guy ^

brainsausage
03-06-2013, 11:51 AM
Thanks for clearing things up a bit Tom. I felt that the goals were a bit nebulous due to a variety of opinions and viewpoints. I'm all for designing a knife that we all would be proud to own. That being said, a mission statement definitely helps keep things a little more focused. Otherwise this could devolve into that episode of the Simpsons where Homer designs a car for his brother:groucho:

I like the idea of a semi classic handle with a slightly modern twist. Not a huge fan of synthetics, although admittedly I've yet to use a handle in G-10 that wasn't on a folder, which typically aren't designed for long periods of use IME.

mr drinky
03-06-2013, 11:54 AM
I also think that bullnose Harner has a nice simple, sleek handle, and the small pins look cool IMO. One of my favorite handles is from Twistington here (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/9478-Handle-me-up-scotty!(gallery-thread)?p=161112&viewfull=1#post161112).

Three thin pins on G10 might look similar to this.

k.

Lefty
03-06-2013, 12:00 PM
Now that is a sexy handle!

brainsausage
03-06-2013, 12:02 PM
I also think that bullnose Harner has a nice simple, sleek handle, and the small pins look cool IMO. One of my favorite handles is from Twistington here (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/9478-Handle-me-up-scotty!(gallery-thread)?p=161112&viewfull=1#post161112).

Three thin pins on G10 might look similar to this.

k.

+1 to both those sentiments Karring.

Mike9
03-06-2013, 12:02 PM
They make other than slab side straight handles - look around on their site. They offer two pin and three pin handles - tang hook, no tang hook, etc. I'm seeing a tendency to box them in with the Forgecraft model.

Lefty
03-06-2013, 12:04 PM
I'd be happy with a version of Dan (Twistington)'s handle. Or, at least inspired by it, and the Butch Bullnose.

chinacats
03-06-2013, 12:23 PM
I'd be happy with a version of Dan (Twistington)'s handle. Or, at least inspired by it, and the Butch Bullnose.

+1 (made of wenge or cocobolo)

Chuckles
03-06-2013, 12:48 PM
Looks like we are right in their wheelhouse on handles. They seem to only offer one pin size though.

http://www.lamsonsharp.com/store/p/1283-8-Walnut-Kullenschliff-Chef-Knife.html

http://www.lamsonsharp.com/store/p/1262-Vintage-6-Chef.html

PierreRodrigue
03-06-2013, 01:16 PM
Here are the two sketches I sent Tom last night. One is similar to his number 4, my thoughts were a wa-ish forgecraft-is bastardization/hybrid. The second, similar to what I call my hybrid. Essentiall the same as the one Twistington did, but would have sloped/rounded front on a bolsterless straight wood handle, or even on a peened metal bolster for that matter. Both Tom and I agree, that a throwback, modernized handle is a goal. Simple, clean, easily manufactured, with quality materials, done right the first time.

Ignore the crude sketch. If these are liked, I will mock up a couple shapes, to give a truer visual.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG-20130305-00478_zps242d71d0.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG-20130305-00477_zps0c5c666d.jpg

Notaskinnychef
03-06-2013, 01:17 PM
My vision for this knife is somewhat complicated and multi-leveled. I see this knife being:

Around 7 years from now, like the Hattori Forum knife.

The answer to, "I really want a great carbon steel knife that will last and impress for a very reasonable price. What should I get"?

And the stainless version that I hope comes out as a clone, with different steel should be the answer to, "What knife should I get that is low maintenance, and pure performance"?

This knife should not need to be upgraded, nor should it have what I call a "throw away handle". These aren't Carter SFGZ knives...no offense, Murray (we all know you read this forum).

Even though the price will be very reasonable, I don't want it to appear that we cheaped out. In fact, I won't cheap out. You'd be amazed what we can get done for a difference of only a few bucks.

This knife should be one that we don't get tired of in a year; It will be designed with quality and style in mind, and not a fleeting trend, or on the premise of, "well, guys are just going to change it anyways"

To further emphasis the above point, this is a complete package and NOT a knife blank.

This knife is designed with the input of the members here, to match up with our ideals, and overall skill-set. While we aren't all knife ninjas. We most definitely do have better knife skills than many chefs out there, and 99% of the general public.

However, there's no reason an advanced knife with upscale styling, great quality and high performance can't be affordable, feel good in anyone's hand and make people look at it and think, "Now that's a knife I would like to own".


I'm going to sketch up a couple quick and dirty pics of handles and see if this takes us in the right direction. I really do not want this knife to be made assuming part of it will be altered. I know this is likely to happen with pretty much any knife we get our hands on, but to design a knife with this mentality is to create a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure.

+1 well said and I am in total agreement.

Mike9
03-06-2013, 01:29 PM
Those look good Pierre - a pinned ferrule in a different wood would be schwing.

toddnmd
03-06-2013, 01:46 PM
Lefty/Tom,

I thought this was assumed, but ultimately this is your project, so you will get final say. Clearly you have some people like Pierre who know a lot, and obviously his opinion will carry more weight. And some other knowledgeable folks on here as well. All my comments are in the category of, "Please consider, but in the end, it's your call." I think it's great that different people are weighing in with different opinions, even if contradictory. It's a bit messy now, but in the long run will most likely yield a better result, since a lot of people have weighed in.

I personally like Pierre's last sketches--nice blend of classic and modern! I also think the pins should be smaller than what Lamson typically uses--the big ones don't feel right to me. And I was never in favor of a throwaway handle. We know some people will rehandle these, but I take that as more of a statement about them and their preferences, not a reflection of the knife itself. Maybe the handle will be so good almost no one will have it redone!

It seems premature to set a price point at this point, although discussions with Lamson of their range of possibilities would be good to narrow down the options and make sure the discussion fits within those parameters. Sometimes small changes can add a little or a lot to the price--I trust you guys have a much better idea of that than someone like me.

labor of love
03-06-2013, 01:54 PM
While Dave's handle is the most comfortable western handle I have ever used, I think we need to acknowledge how sh!tt^ it would be to use his forum as a vehicle to steal his design.

i never implied that we should steal his design. i just like it alot. that is all.

ajhuff
03-06-2013, 02:05 PM
When I say a price point needs to be determined sooner rather than later I am not talking about how much you are willing to pay to buy said knife. I'm talking about how much are you willing to pay Lamson to make the knife.

-AJ

toddnmd
03-06-2013, 02:11 PM
AJ, makes sense.

The handle on the Forgecraft (2nd pic in post #42) reminds me of some of the ideas being tossed around: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/9478-Handle-me-up-scotty!%28gallery-thread%29/page5

(Though I'm not sure if it's a selling point to describe it as "coffin-shaped"! ;-)

mr drinky
03-06-2013, 03:23 PM
...on a bolsterless straight wood handle, or even on a peened metal bolster for that matter.

Though I doubt things would go in this direction, if there is a metal bolster, please no mokume. I've really come to dislike that material.

k.

Lefty
03-06-2013, 03:25 PM
Karring says no mokume, WE AIN'T GONNA DO MOKUME!!! Get it, guys? :D

mr drinky
03-06-2013, 03:31 PM
Thanks for pandering to my fickle desires Tom. I might be one of the only people that hates mokume on this forum -- so if it prevails I will accept the winds of change and democratic lack of taste ;)

k.

PierreRodrigue
03-06-2013, 03:54 PM
lol!! I concur. If a bolster is chosen, brushed stainless would be the cheapest way to go.

DevinT
03-06-2013, 04:37 PM
Though I doubt things would go in this direction, if there is a metal bolster, please no mokume. I've really come to dislike that material.

k.

Please explain why.

Hoss

apicius9
03-06-2013, 04:52 PM
I like the direction this is going, nice ideas being tossed around. And I like Lefty's vision on this. As for the woods, not sure what others' experiences are, but I found that wenge at times can be a bit brittle, at least I had issues with the pieces I had. Something like cocobolo or bubinga should be nice, stable (if it is aged enough), and affordable. If you want to stay American, a figured maple variation would be nice (curly, quilted, birdseye etc), walnut and mesquite should work also. Not a big fan of the artificial materials, but in the end the decision should be guided by how the overall package works.

Stefan

Mrmnms
03-06-2013, 05:00 PM
I like wood handles as well. Walnut, maple and cherry are all locally available. Curious about a response to Devin's question.

Lefty
03-06-2013, 05:04 PM
What's Haslinger use a lot of? Is it Birdseye maple? It's stunning stuff....

mr drinky
03-06-2013, 05:14 PM
Please explain why.

Hoss

I usually find it distracting from the handle wood and/or blade, and I have rarely seen knives where I feel the mokume adds to the overall look of the knife -- though there have been some exceptions. If a knife has a strong patterned/figured wood for the handle, mokume usually clashes IMO. And if your blade has a nice damascus, the mokume also competes with the blade steel.

Where I have seen it working well is when it is used with more muted woods and mono-steels or when a very thin amount is used as a spacer or to top off a ferrule. A little flair in these instances can be good. But the thick mokume bolsters don't do it for me with damascus steel or nice wood. My eye simply rejects having two metal patterns right next to each other.

But that's just me. Three patterns in a knife is just too much.

k.

stevenStefano
03-06-2013, 05:42 PM
I think it has already been said but there's so many pages I don't wanna go through them, but I like this handle from Twistington. (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/9478-Handle-me-up-scotty!(gallery-thread)?p=161112&viewfull=1#post161112) Simple but nice, especially so if you polished the tang to the same level as the frontcap, would be easier to make than a bolster

Justin0505
03-07-2013, 12:01 AM
I also think that some of the Twistington handles look really great, and that the idea of a modified old-school butchers handle is cool, but I have some reservations about the idea. What looks comfortable and sounds like a cool handle design concept on paper (or forum) does not necessarily make a good handle in reality. Let's also remember that a bull-nose has a very different application than a gyuto and the different mechanics may mean that a good handle for one doesn't transfer to the other.
Also, I have a hard time endorsing a handle that I (and I'm assuming most potential buyers) have never actually held, much less spent any length of time working with. I've used some handles from some pretty well regarded makers that look REALLY cool on screen, but were pretty fundamentally flawed (IMO) when it came to actually using them for a few hours.
While I'm in buzz-kill mode, I'll also point out that while Twistington's bolster looks really stunning, I don't understand it's functional benefit (which wouldn't keep me from ordering it on a custom) but, there also appears to be a pretty sizable gap where it's fitted around the tang.... a good example of a bolster introducing new possible problems.

I hate to sound negative on this great, positive thread, and I'm not saying that I think that the modified butcher handle is a "bad" idea, just that it's an "unknown" that needs some serious R&D and vetting before we order up 80 of them.


For those still interested, here are some better pictures of the handle on Karring's #10(as in 10th made) Martell gyuto. My Martell (the one Chuckles posted pics of) is a later, non-numbered piece and it shows some very subtle changes to the design (over all its thinner and rounder) but I actually like the extra beef and angular definition in the #10. Again, just to be clear: I AM NOT, NOR SHOULD ANYONE ELSE, SUGGESTING THAT WE COPY ANYONE'S WORK! I'm just posting this as food for thought as to a non-coke-bottle evolutionary path for a western handle that's tried, tested, and VERY good.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2JuI6nkbKYw/UTf8QHRBfeI/AAAAAAAAL50/qKNPhi0TTRg/s1152/Martell%2520Gyuto%2520Handle-1.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mMx5WIywEKc/UTf8FgB3GXI/AAAAAAAAL5s/-CX6C0cESZI/s1152/Martell%2520Gyuto%2520Handle-2.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-S-0sfvvjSs8/UTf771-9SEI/AAAAAAAAL5k/slFUc8gRixE/s1152/Martell%2520Gyuto%2520Handle-3.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AlwtswRgJMM/UTf7xzHNMCI/AAAAAAAAL6E/HUI24Y130uA/s1152/Martell%2520Gyuto%2520Handle-4.JPG

franzb69
03-07-2013, 12:02 AM
Until Tom comes up with an anticipated price, I think it's best NOT to even mention a price. You're going to create an expectation that something can be done at a certain price and, at this time, I'm assuming that there has been NO mention of a possible price because nothing has been even tentatively agreed upon except for the basic profile of the knife and the steel.

sorry =D

it was not my intention

labor of love
03-07-2013, 12:40 AM
i really like the idea of no bolster.

Chuckles
03-07-2013, 01:05 AM
Justin, you take really good pictures.

theo59
03-07-2013, 04:16 AM
Hi everyone. I've been reading this form for awhile, but haven't posted before this. But this project sounds great and I'd like to be in on it. I realize its probably going to be a year until these knives are made but count me in for one of them, if possible. I trust you guys from what I've read here on the details. I like your ideas on the grind (partial convex, thin behind the edge, dramatic distal taper) which sounds similar to what Will C. did for me last year, which I love. Thanks, Ted

toddnmd
03-07-2013, 08:45 AM
I like wood handles as well. Walnut, maple and cherry are all locally available. Curious about a response to Devin's question.

Personally, I think these three types of wood are a bit too common. Dont' get me wrong, I appreciate all those woods, but just not in this situation. This knife deserves something of more distinction. I generally find maple to be too light for knives, though some of the figured stuff (like birdseye or fiddleback) is more attractive. My $0.02.

Mrmnms
03-07-2013, 11:59 AM
I would prefer wood. Not so important what kind within practical limits. I'd be ok with paying more for another type wood handle if that's the consensus . Not a deal breaker for me, although I like the idea of using local woods. Taz575 does some pretty nice handles in walnut and maple as well as other guys on this forum. Any strong opinions?

Paradox
03-07-2013, 02:02 PM
One of the craftsmen here recently posted a photo of a Forgecraft they re-handled and I can't seem to find it. It looked outstanding and IIRC it would be a super example of inspiration for this project. Maybe someone will recall it and post a link up for us?

I think it is important for this knife to have a handle that allows it to stand firmly on it's own as a complete knife.

Lefty
03-07-2013, 02:11 PM
Paradox gets it. :D

chinacats
03-07-2013, 03:56 PM
Alright, with all that input it's time to see some new sketches!

DeepCSweede
03-07-2013, 04:09 PM
I would prefer wood. Not so important what kind within practical limits. I'd be ok with paying more for another type wood handle if that's the consensus . Not a deal breaker for me, although I like the idea of using local woods. Taz575 does some pretty nice handles in walnut and maple as well as other guys on this forum. Any strong opinions?

I would be more inclined to get it with a figured maple.

Paradox
03-07-2013, 05:39 PM
This is the one I seemed unable to find for some reason. It was done by Twistington. Really nice, simple, elegant, beautiful form, and functional. There is a lot of possibility in this for this project I think.

I think this was already posted in this thread, sorry to be repetitive but I think it's worth seeing again.



http://imageshack.us/a/img694/3770/forgecraftremake.jpg
Was far away from happy with my Forgecraft so i remodeled the handle into some kind of octagon, coffin shaped thingie.

Lefty
03-07-2013, 06:07 PM
That is VERY similar to one of Pierre and I's original ideas. I think Pierre even posted his sketch. Again, just want to reiterate we WON'T be copying anyone's design.

I like it, but still want something up front, like a ferrule/bolster...even in different wood.

Things are really progressing, by the way. :D

Paradox
03-07-2013, 07:39 PM
That is VERY similar to one of Pierre and I's original ideas. I think Pierre even posted his sketch. Again, just want to reiterate we WON'T be copying anyone's design.

I like it, but still want something up front, like a ferrule/bolster...even in different wood.

Things are really progressing, by the way. :D

Exactly. This photo along with those sketches shows us this can happen. Then look at the the stuff Lamson has on their stock lines, like the "Vintage" and "Earth" and it seems like they will surely be capable of pulling it off.

brainsausage
03-07-2013, 09:53 PM
That is VERY similar to one of Pierre and I's original ideas. I think Pierre even posted his sketch. Again, just want to reiterate we WON'T be copying anyone's design.

I like it, but still want something up front, like a ferrule/bolster...even in different wood.

Things are really progressing, by the way. :D

+1

I really like this general concept, but as I posted above, it's nice having a ferrule/bolster to help balance the knife in both terms of visual aesthetics, weight, and also overall feel.

PierreRodrigue
03-07-2013, 10:30 PM
agreed. So we are thinking stainless, with a brushed/satin finish. Also, after a few conversations today, We need to ask you guys how you feel about rosewood as an option? Lamson has wenge, rosewood, and cocobolo on hand. Tom and I think Rosewood might be the way to go. Could as many of you who want to voice an opinion please weigh in on this?

I had a long talk with Lamson today. Things are moving forward in a positive way!

Thanks guys.

Paradox
03-07-2013, 10:52 PM
I'd be okay with any of the three. My vote would be for the one that they have that they feel shows the most figure in it at the time of production. My guess is that will be the cocobolo but sometimes you do see it with not much figure in it.

ajhuff
03-07-2013, 11:02 PM
I have a Lamson Silver with Rosewood handle. I think it's beautiful and it always gets attention from others.

-AJ

brainsausage
03-07-2013, 11:06 PM
Nice to hear Pierre!

I've never handled wenge, but I like the feel of both rosewood and cocobolo. If pressed(and I suppose I am) I'd vote for cocobolo. It feels a little grippier to me, and I appreciate the appearance a little more.

Although...

Depending on blade length, and bolster materials, a discussion about wood density and weight should be considered I think. My Marko handled Watanabe gyuto-suke is pretty blade heavy, but the oily cocobolo seems to help add some balance(as well as the ferrule and metal spacer obviously). Whereas the burnt chestnut handle on my Kato feels great, but doesn't seem to aid with balance in any appreciable manner(and granted- the Kato is EXTREMELY blade centric). Am I wrong in my assessment of these two woods?

Pensacola Tiger
03-07-2013, 11:21 PM
Rosewood sounds good, but either cocobolo or wenge would be good, as well. What are the chances of making all three available so there would be a choice?

toddnmd
03-07-2013, 11:25 PM
Cocobolo (especially if it has cool grain patterns) would be my first choice. I'd like rosewood and wenge as well.

PierreRodrigue
03-07-2013, 11:25 PM
That would entail another conversation. I would say possible yes. For the same price? Remains to be seen.

toddnmd
03-07-2013, 11:33 PM
Oh, and glad to hear things are moving along!

Lefty
03-07-2013, 11:33 PM
Maybe a different wood on a stainless version, assuming we have the demand, down the road? We could, potentially do (hypothetically) 20 of each (or whatever our number of total knives, divided by three is). I like this possibility.

Lefty
03-07-2013, 11:39 PM
Heading to bed, but food for thought: how do you guys like copper? I love it with rosewood, and cocobolo but I know some don't like it with food prep tools. What would you think of a copper bolster?

apicius9
03-07-2013, 11:40 PM
I don't think the differences in wood density between the three are big enough to affect balance in a meaningful way. Personally, I would prefer cocobolo over rosewood over wenge. I had some issues with wenge once, but since so many others use it, I may just have had a bad block of it. Glad to hear that talks are on the way, just surprised to see we are now thinking stainless? Gotta read back a little, hard to keep up with this thread.

Stefan

Lefty
03-07-2013, 11:42 PM
Still O1 blade. Just a stainless brushes bolster. :D

apicius9
03-07-2013, 11:43 PM
Heading to bed, but food for thought: how do you guys like copper? I love it with rosewood, and cocobolo but I know some don't like it with food prep tools. What would you think of a copper bolster?

I can see copper pins, but am not a big fan of the copper bolster idea.

St.

apicius9
03-07-2013, 11:45 PM
Still O1 blade. Just a stainless brushes bolster. :D

Looks like I am way behind with reading ;)

St.

franzb69
03-07-2013, 11:58 PM
Maybe a different wood on a stainless version, assuming we have the demand, down the road? We could, potentially do (hypothetically) 20 of each (or whatever our number of total knives, divided by three is). I like this possibility.

yes on different wood on stainless version.


copper or bronze or brass pin/rivets

=D

brainsausage
03-08-2013, 12:49 AM
I don't think the differences in wood density between the three are big enough to affect balance in a meaningful way. Personally, I would prefer cocobolo over rosewood over wenge. I had some issues with wenge once, but since so many others use it, I may just have had a bad block of it. Glad to hear that talks are on the way, just surprised to see we are now thinking stainless? Gotta read back a little, hard to keep up with this thread.

Stefan

Thanks for clarifying Stefan.

GlassEye
03-08-2013, 01:04 AM
Heading to bed, but food for thought: how do you guys like copper? I love it with rosewood, and cocobolo but I know some don't like it with food prep tools. What would you think of a copper bolster?

I like rosewood from the three choices mentioned above, then I thought it would need a bolster of brass, copper, bronze or similarly colored metal.

GlassEye
03-08-2013, 01:09 AM
I think it has already been said but there's so many pages I don't wanna go through them, but I like this handle from Twistington. (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/9478-Handle-me-up-scotty!(gallery-thread)?p=161112&viewfull=1#post161112) Simple but nice, especially so if you polished the tang to the same level as the frontcap, would be easier to make than a bolster
I really like that handle, do this in rosewood. For me, a handle with much taper would be a deal breaker, the reason I like a wa handle is the width and minute taper, western handles usually have too much taper and curves for me to use it.

G-rat
03-08-2013, 02:27 AM
Thoughts about a stainless bolster on a carbon knife...will the dark patina on the blade clash with the "forever" polish of a stainless bolster?

chinacats
03-08-2013, 02:45 AM
Thoughts about a stainless bolster on a carbon knife...will the dark patina on the blade clash with the "forever" polish of a stainless bolster?

+1, I'd vote for copper and cocobolo

Von blewitt
03-08-2013, 03:19 AM
Cocobolo

toddnmd
03-08-2013, 09:36 AM
Maybe a different wood on a stainless version, assuming we have the demand, down the road? We could, potentially do (hypothetically) 20 of each (or whatever our number of total knives, divided by three is). I like this possibility.

Or would it be possible for folks to pre-order with their choice of wood? I'm not sure if demand will be equal for all three. I'd be totally fine with putting down a deposit with wood choice, which would also give you a much better idea of how big to make that first production run (and how many to make of each type). I'm pretty sure a lot of folks are quite interested, but there's nothing like people putting down their money to show commitment.

labor of love
03-08-2013, 10:46 AM
Thoughts about a stainless bolster on a carbon knife...will the dark patina on the blade clash with the "forever" polish of a stainless bolster?

my misono swed had a stainless bolster. it is an interesting contrast but i dont think it looks bad.

Mike9
03-08-2013, 10:51 AM
Yes, but in a good way.


Thoughts about a stainless bolster on a carbon knife...will the dark patina on the blade clash with the "forever" polish of a stainless bolster?

franzb69
03-08-2013, 10:59 AM
my misono swed had a stainless bolster. it is an interesting contrast but i dont think it looks bad.

mine does too. soldered/welded on. after the patina set in you can see the line where it was welded.

misono swedish knives come in different wood handles (the common black and the natural looking brown wood handle) afaik. only the black is available on korin and on the unmentionable site. saw it on ebay and other online sites.

here it is on alibaba....

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/261/250/109/109250261_521.jpg


here's a good example of the misono swedish all patina'd showing the division of the bolster and the blade

http://www.souppilgrim.com/orglif/misono09.jpg

(thanks to vertigo of another forum for the pic... credit to him and his knife)

forgot to mention that these have brass rivets so it goes along in the vision of what's been agreed on so far. =D

Don Nguyen
03-08-2013, 11:44 AM
I don't mean to use this as an exact example (though it is always stunning to look at) but I think it embodies simplicity with great visual balance. Twistington has a way to please eyes.

There's almost nothing to it, but there's everything about it...


Eskilstuna scimitar 270mm , brass, ebony, white paper micarta.
http://imageshack.us/a/img339/4357/etunascimitar2.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img62/2854/etunascimitar.jpg

G10 would also be a great material I think. I'm not sure how manufacturers machine/work their materials, but micarta is a pain in the butt to work with, even if it's cheap. G10 isn't that much more and it is simply a joy to shape - plus, it looks good, and is about as durable as it can get.

JohnnyChance
03-08-2013, 01:20 PM
Lamson uses a lot of rosewood in their own knife lines. It's not honduran rosewood burl or anything that stunning. I would stay away from it just to help differentiate between this knife and the knives they regularly make.

Copper is fine as long as there are no red liners involved.

Lefty
03-08-2013, 01:34 PM
That's a good point, John.

Too many Carters in your day?

pleue
03-08-2013, 02:01 PM
out of the choices of wood available, I like the idea of rosewood or cocobolo (with their stock on hand, they could select choice pieces of either I'd imagine) with a brass pins and a brass bolster. Would patina nicely and give some old-time feel to the knife. The balance of the knife would indeed be better with a bolster. Copper is more finicky and something though beautiful, I would prefer to stay away from in a commercial kitchen. I would stay away from a stainless bolster, I don't like the look of it with a carbon knife, especially with another material of pins.

chinacats
03-08-2013, 02:15 PM
No offense on the dragon pic, but I kind of hate that clash of patina against none. I'm sure it is a love it or hate it thing, it's just not for me and I love dragons.:2cents:

Paradox
03-08-2013, 02:29 PM
Seeing it pictured I'm not keen on it either.

brainsausage
03-08-2013, 04:44 PM
Seeing it pictured I'm not keen on it either.

Me neither. Far too abrupt.

Notaskinnychef
03-08-2013, 06:18 PM
i love patina, and the concept of having contrast is certainly appealing, but having such a dark and bold patina (without the metalic hues and such) makes it seem a bit too harsh imo

PierreRodrigue
03-08-2013, 08:34 PM
Gentlemen, food for though. From a construction point of view first.

Bolsters. An issue has been raised with galvanic reaction. Copper if not cared for could likely turn dark, then green. You have voiced an objection to stainless. Fair enough. I would like to suggest bronze. It is a mix of brass and tin, as you know, and would be less likely to turn then copper, or straight brass. Thoughts?

Pins. Or as far as a produced knife goes, rivets. There are a few sizes, essentially, the smallest is .1875 in dia. Issue with the pins/rivets is color match to the bolsters. I believe there are brass, stainless, and maybe nickel/silver. No copper, no bronze.

Potential configuration. In my minds eye, I think bronze bolsters, and cocobolo would look sweet, and unique. The pin issue can be as simple as nothing visible. Blind/hidden pins are a possible answer.

The issue is... When constructing a knife in mass numbers, the more a knife, or component is handled, the cost rises. So for example lets take a knife through the steps.
1. profiles are computer fitted to a sheet to yield as little waste as possible.
2. cut out by precision laser.
3. Heat treated
4. ground, and polished to desired finish
5. in another part of the shop, the handle scales are profiled and drilled/countersunk to receive the rivets. Bolsters have been CNC machined to desired profile, and drilled to accept the pins.
6. bolsters are epoxied/pinned/pressed into place
7. Scales are epoxied, rivets placed, scales checked to ensure a tight fit, then the rivets are pressed to secure them. And laid aside to cure.
7b. scales are epoxied, pinned/clamped, by hand and laid aside to cure. (much more time and hands on here)
8. Handle is trimmed, shaped, and polished.
8b. pins are trimmed flush, handle is trimmed, shaped and polished

It doesn't sound like much of a difference, but to clamp ( 2 clamps per knife) 80 or so knives would take a considerable amount of time. Its not out of the question, but would add cost and is a PITA in terms of production.

Now this post will be a surprise to Tom, as he has been busy today. So I apologize if this post is out of turn, or not along the projects vision. Just options, and an explanation of how the knife will be built. Reading how it will come together, will dispel some ideas we may have of possible options. Remember, these are not customs. We want to build a solid, aesthetically pleasing knife, out of quality materials, for a low price, that will be acceptable to the group as a whole.

As an added FYI, I was speaking to my steel guy today, and talking of new things coming down the pipe. He informed me on the composition of the O1 we will be using, and chemically speaking, it will sit squarely between white 1, and blue 2. It is a very clean smelt, and will produce an excellent carbon steel knife. I am excited to be part of this project.

Also, Lamson is taking interest in this thread, and has read it from end to end!

Thanks for your time!

Pierre

UCChemE05
03-08-2013, 08:45 PM
my 2 cents.... I don't like the look of a stainless bolster with a carbon knife.

My vote is for the carbon knife, use a solid scales with no bolster then revisit having a stainless bolster vs none for the stainless version.

ThEoRy
03-08-2013, 09:56 PM
Sup Lamson? :cool2:

sachem allison
03-08-2013, 10:06 PM
agreed. So we are thinking stainless, with a brushed/satin finish. Also, after a few conversations today, We need to ask you guys how you feel about rosewood as an option? Lamson has wenge, rosewood, and cocobolo on hand. Tom and I think Rosewood might be the way to go. Could as many of you who want to voice an opinion please weigh in on this?

I had a long talk with Lamson today. Things are moving forward in a positive way!

Thanks guys.
Vintage American Knife and Lamson I think Rosewood.

sachem allison
03-08-2013, 10:14 PM
I have spoken!

don
03-08-2013, 10:18 PM
Pierre, thanks for the detail. Would a wa-handle reduce complexity? And thus reducing potential issues and cost? Though Lamson does have experience with western handles, so we can assume a level of proficiency, no?

The O1 composition sounds very interesting.

Josh
03-08-2013, 10:27 PM
I'm in, small voice here...
-Lefty & Pierre you're both Canuks... Maple should be in here as an option
-Copper = good
-Carbon = preferred
-Knife shape = distinct = preferred

question is - is it for foodies and pro's only? if so, a 255 is great. if its a knife for the masses, a 255 may be hard to sell vs. a 210 or 225
(ie - I can't gift a 255 to a non-foodie friend, but I can gift a 210-255)
Plus each knife should come with a free bar of Leftie's shaving soap

PierreRodrigue
03-08-2013, 10:27 PM
I think for a production knife, a way may be a pain as well. I will confer with Tom, but I think we want a full tang.

apicius9
03-08-2013, 10:29 PM
Maybe I should keep quiet about the handle because most likely I will rip mine off and stick a wa handle on it, but I do see the extra steps involved in the production process that Pierre described. It may come down to how this translates into $$$. Personally, while I think cocoblolo or rosewood go great with the bronze, I have never been a fan of 'golden' bolsters combined with 'silver' blades, but that's just me. I'll try to buy one no matter what it will look like, just because I think this is a cool project.

Stefan

don
03-08-2013, 10:51 PM
Thanks, Pierre for the feedback on production wa. Stefan's point about additional cost is good. Even though we aren't talking about price point, it does come into play. Additional complexity will lead to more issues and higher costs.

So we want a knife that we can recommend and gift. Two price points I see today for this: <$100 and <$200. The $100 price point is the what's better than a Forschner. The $200 price point is what's better than Shun/Wustholf.

At the $100 price point, I'm okay without bolster or fancy things. I want the best value for dollar possible. Best steel, profile and comfortable handle.

At the $200 price point, I want I nicer looking knife.

turbochef422
03-08-2013, 11:54 PM
This thing goes up like 10 pages at a time. I can't keep up

Mike9
03-09-2013, 12:12 AM
Back to Pierre's Wa slabs on a full tang. With a wood "ferrule" that was pinned and contrasting slabs and octagonal. Or if it has to be a "western" style handle then why not a contrasting wood bolster pinned to the tang. Use I don't know - G10 for the bolster and rosewood for the slabs. Hell use brushed 01 for the pinned bolsters - But I like where this is going and it's been fun adding my .02 now and then.

Notaskinnychef
03-09-2013, 01:36 AM
This is such an exciting and interesting process. Being that I am so new in to this world it just keeps pulling me further in to the obsession. With that said, I've already told my wife im buying one of these :-)

Dusty
03-09-2013, 01:38 AM
Me too. ;)

franzb69
03-09-2013, 02:57 AM
here's something that might be interesting to do for the handle:

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv68/3franzb69/20130309_142812_zps8757b30f.jpg

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv68/3franzb69/20130309_142716_zps2fd7c16e.jpg

natural colored micarta with brass rivets. =D

Justin0505
03-09-2013, 04:42 AM
I came across this too:

http://www.baba-hamono.com/
http://www.baba-hamono.com/item/hamono/you/808/img/eco_handle.jpg

kalaeb
03-09-2013, 05:15 AM
I like Pierre's suggestion of brass and cocobolo, I think they would look great. (Of course I secretly want a split wa with copper).

RobinW
03-09-2013, 07:37 AM
This knife should last a long time, i think we all agree on that.
While I don't know how much the epoxying of the handle may change things, but in my "pre-knife knut" days i used Victorinoxes with rosewood handles. All of these knives show gaps between tang and scales even in the swedish not too dry climate. Bottom line, we need to make sure the wood chosen is stable enough on it's own unless we go for stabilized (which i agree should probably be avoided from cost issues).

ajhuff
03-09-2013, 10:18 AM
Brass can look very good:
http://s7.postimage.org/ddz5yovaz/IMG_1930.jpg


:D

Though I personally think for a plain carbon knife the bolster should be plain carbon or none at all. My personal preference.

-AJ

dharperino
03-09-2013, 12:07 PM
I'm loving the long conversation and all the varied preferences! Pierre's latest description works for me and I think the 255 size is a good compromise. Is this carbon steel similar to 52100, or am I'm just misremembering??? lol

Dan
Count me in!!

Chuckles
03-09-2013, 12:10 PM
I like the look of what franzb and Justin just posted. This knife could be a godsend for line cooks stuck with Shuns and globals and the Germans. I don't think it should be too fancy. And cooks don't care about handles the way we do.

PierreRodrigue
03-09-2013, 12:25 PM
The O1 we have procured, chemically falls between White 1 and Blue 2. As a steel, it isn't as reactive or stinky as most. It likes to patina blues and purples in proteins. Don't misread this, it can and will rust as any carbon will.

It has a great, fine grain structure, and is awesome at HRC 61-62. But "sings"
if taken higher. For this project, and for toughness sake, I recommend 61-62. Much higher increases the risk of chipping.

52100 has been coined by some as poor mans O1.

ajhuff
03-09-2013, 01:25 PM
I like the look of what franzb and Justin just posted. This knife could be a godsend for line cooks stuck with Shuns and globals and the Germans. I don't think it should be too fancy. And cooks don't care about handles the way we do.

I like very little bling on my work knives. That's why I spec my work knives with black handles. They attract less attention and are less likely to wander off. Passive knife security.

-AJ

labor of love
03-09-2013, 01:46 PM
I like the look of what franzb and Justin just posted. This knife could be a godsend for line cooks stuck with Shuns and globals and the Germans. I don't think it should be too fancy. And cooks don't care about handles the way we do.


here's something that might be interesting to do for the handle:

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv68/3franzb69/20130309_142812_zps8757b30f.jpg

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv68/3franzb69/20130309_142716_zps2fd7c16e.jpg

natural colored micarta with brass rivets. =D


I came across this too:

http://www.baba-hamono.com/
http://www.baba-hamono.com/item/hamono/you/808/img/eco_handle.jpg
i much prefer a handle that tapers and gets thicker towards the end.

don
03-09-2013, 01:50 PM
i much prefer a handle that tapers and gets thicker towards the end.

+1

Paradox
03-09-2013, 02:05 PM
Something like this would work for me.


here's something that might be interesting to do for the handle:

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv68/3franzb69/20130309_142812_zps8757b30f.jpg

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv68/3franzb69/20130309_142716_zps2fd7c16e.jpg

natural colored micarta with brass rivets. =D

Lefty
03-09-2013, 03:02 PM
Sorry guys. I'm tiling the bathroom...I'll be outta the loop for the day. However, Pierre and I have spoken at length, and we share the same vision/direction, etc.

PierreRodrigue
03-09-2013, 03:04 PM
I will do a little mock up later today... Other work to do ATM.

PierreRodrigue
03-09-2013, 05:59 PM
Alright. So... I whipped this up PDQ, so ignore the fit and finish. It is cocobolo, and copper (I had no brass on hand) Tom has seen this, and wasn't torn up about the front of the bolster. Just FYI, as I said, a rough mock up. A place to start, and to see the materials together. It can be rounded, contoured, instead of faceted. It is comfortable though.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0232_zpsbd5cdc35.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0231_zps5cf19f21.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0234_zps272e003f.jpg

Second is a pic Tom sent me. I think he is looking at the left hand knife with the brass bolsters.
13853

And lastly. Here is a cleaver handle Tom found a picture of, and likes it a lot for this project. Shape anyways. His words were "perfect" I tend to agree with the shape. Again picture it in cocobolo.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/Picture1996.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/Picture1993.jpg

Here is one in G10
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_4299.jpg

So If you guys could give us a few minutes, weigh in on each of the points above. Materials, shapes etc.

Thanks! Back to the shop!

Igasho
03-09-2013, 06:16 PM
I'd prefer the one on the cleaver tom showed

Justin0505
03-09-2013, 06:25 PM
DAMN Pierre! :knife::doublethumbsup:
I really, reallly, like how your mock-up looks. It has that "classic" rectangular / angular style but with some more sophisticated organic contours. I think you nailed it. I'd be happy with it with the same shape, but no bolster. I personally still don't understand the need / obsession for a bolster on this project and no one has really given one other than "I like them; they're cool; I want one" If spending the extra $ / adding the extra complexity of bolster is really what the majority wants, then that's fine, but I just want to make sure we don't have a couple very vocal bolster nuts making this decision for everyone. I know we are not at the point of talking specific $$ yet, but the aprox price increase created by a bolster seems like something that Lamson should be able to estimate pretty accurately...


As for the pics from Tom, I don't like any of them nearly as much as what mocked-up. Especially that bottom cleaver handle: looks slippery and kinda "bleh".

jayhay
03-09-2013, 06:42 PM
I'm trying not to post too much, because there are a lot of opinions going around here, but I gotta chime in on the handle biz.

Personally, I don't care for the brass bolster, or any bolster really. It seems unnecessary for a project like this. Too much bling in my opinion. But the overall shape of Pierre's handle is very nice.

Simple, tasteful and functional is more the goal, I think. And I find the all wood handle on the cleaver with the clean stainless spacer to be the most appealing. But I would also be fine with some nicely shaped single-piece wood scales. I really like simple and functional handles, with maybe an accent or two. And being that this knife is more for the masses, I find it wise to try to keep the cost down.

This is purely me and my own opinion, but I'm a modder at heart and enjoy tweaking just about everything I buy. I try to buy the best I can afford, I do my research and then make a few adjustments to try to dial in performance on the new toy. I build my own computers and make my own home theater cables, swap knife handles and replace the air intakes on my cars (mostly lol). What I'm saying is, I personally really like to tweak, you can't stop me :) But at the same time, I generally want the product I buy to be functional without any additional modifications.

I think for this project, less is more. I'd prefer a stable handle material, whatever that may be, from G10 to naturally oily wood (or stabilized if cost permitting) on a full tang, with a solid epoxy job to seal the gaps and a nice shape.

But that's just me. Thanks for listening, all.

statusquo
03-09-2013, 06:55 PM
I prefer the handle on the cleaver examples. Don't feel a metal bolster is necessary, particularly if it will increase the price.

RoanRoks29
03-09-2013, 07:09 PM
I so want in on this !!! I am only going to put my $0.02 on the handle for the steel you are all much more knowledgeable on than I!! I agree about the bolster being unnecessary I think if you go with something simple like the old forgecraft style handle where you can do three rivets or pins and a sexy classic wood, shape it up with a tall and thin octagonal shape, with nice taper on it from from to back It will feel good and look good. Just follow the KISS rule!(Keep It Simple Stupid) I also like the style on the first clever from Pierre!

labor of love
03-09-2013, 07:11 PM
sorry i need to rewrite this comment later.

don
03-09-2013, 07:14 PM
The mock up handle shape is great, though I would pass on the pointed bolster. I like the main handles angles and how it's thinner at the ferrule, and wider at the base. For the ferrule, the square or rounded is nicer.

Personally, I prefer cocobolo, but g10 maybe better. If stability is a concern, this being a working knife for many climates, how about small g10 ferrule, silver spacer, g10 handle? Could a nice modern looking handle but not too much bling, not too temperamental. If we want fancy, then there will be personal re-handles or maybe special run of something "prettier." The Hittori FH's started with Micarta handles, and then later expanded. Actually, I wonder what's the most popular FH handle these days. Could be a good base line comparison.

tgraypots
03-09-2013, 07:28 PM
the topmost cleaver handle does it for me, with or without the ferrule.

Mike9
03-09-2013, 07:34 PM
The mock up shape is really nice Pierre. I like the first cleaver with a simple spacer and two woods. Combine the two and you may have it.

77kath
03-09-2013, 07:36 PM
FWIW, I like the cleaver handle.

Chuckles
03-09-2013, 08:16 PM
Pierre that mock-up is my favorite so far. I think the shaping of that handle looks right on. I think the bolster looks great but I am suspicious that it will jack the price too high. If the price climbs to $200 it has to be as good or better than: Misono Swedish, Kikuichi TKC, Mac Pro, Hiromoto AS to name a few. I think keeping the price down and focusing on quality performance over bling is the clearest route to finding a solid niche in the market. :2cents:

Dusty
03-09-2013, 08:24 PM
I like the mock up handle, but more eased and softened, not as faceted. Chuckles is also has a good point about the knives that this knife will have to compete against in a given price bracket. It would be a massive achievement if this knife could outperform all of those examples. (I hope so!!!)

Lefty
03-09-2013, 08:33 PM
Guys, I have a few minutes, finally. I have to warn you, I'll be busy tomorrow, Monday and maybe all week if we end up finding somewhere warm and sunny to go for a few days. I really don't want to hold this up, so I'll pop in when I can, throw my opinion out there, and maybe sneak a quick call or two into Pierre.

Soooo, as he said, I think the first cleaver with G10, a thin spacer and cocobolo would be virtually perfect. The "polls" seem split, as it stands. However, I think this handle wound give the knife a very distinct identity, look and feel that matches the quality, and it also makes me remember that less can be more, in terms of classic styling.

It's tough to find a shape/look that the large majority will not only accept, but truly appreciate. I hope these handles are close, if not the answer.

And in regards to the FH, I have a 240 and 270 gyuto coming my way. I can honestly say, if our knife doesn't feel as great and perform at least as well, we'll hold off on production until it does. To outperform the direct competition, you have to know and study it, which I'll be doing plenty of. And yes, I'm saying that the FH is our direct competition, with this knife. I know one is stainless, and the other is carbon, but in terms of performance, price, quality and customer base, this is who I hope we can beat.

Paradox
03-09-2013, 09:27 PM
Interesting. When this started my first thought was "Artifex Killer" as to the competition. That raises the bar a bit, good on you Lefty.

I like the combination of the G10 with cocobolo. I think if that combo has the shape and contours of the mock up it would be a solid winner on the 01 blade. Form and function, yea baby!

Lefty, decided against NYC? I was looking forward to hear about the fun you have there. Have a great getaway!

PierreRodrigue
03-09-2013, 09:35 PM
I can knock the copper off, pop on some G10, change the shape of the front of the bolster and "have a look". The wa-ish facets really give a firm, comfortable grip. Someone mentioned the slick feel of a full round. This would counter that. Coupled with the fact it taper in two planes front to back (side to side, and top to bottom) it is a nice feel. also, I tucked in the scales at the back, instead of leaving them straight.

I think form and function, this is closer to a true wa/western hybrid.

brainsausage
03-09-2013, 09:40 PM
I can knock the copper off, pop on some G10, change the shape of the front of the bolster and "have a look". The wa-ish facets really give a firm, comfortable grip. Someone mentioned the slick feel of a full round. This would counter that. Coupled with the fact it taper in two planes front to back (side to side, and top to bottom) it is a nice feel. also, I tucked in the scales at the back, instead of leaving them straight.

I think form and function, this is closer to a true wa/western hybrid.

I really like the sound of this Pierre.

Paradox
03-09-2013, 09:42 PM
I tucked in the scales at the back, instead of leaving them straight.

I noticed that and I think it looks really cool that way. I can imagine holding it and it seems right.

I wonder how it would look with 3 pins/rivets with one of them in the G10? :cool2:

Mrmnms
03-09-2013, 10:03 PM
Pierre mentioned comfortable. On the top of my list. Something to use every day. If Pierre says the angles of the bolster provides a secure comfortable grip, I trust his judgement. I like the aesthetics of the cleaver handle as well, but suspect the other handle makes more sense. Cocobolo is a fine choice.

Lefty
03-09-2013, 10:08 PM
Cleaver 1 handle look, with bevels like the mock-up?

PierreRodrigue
03-09-2013, 10:10 PM
Sound good?

jayhay
03-09-2013, 10:11 PM
Sound good?

+1 Sounds good!

franzb69
03-09-2013, 10:24 PM
either suggestions on the mock up and the cleaver handle would be good for me too.

either way it'll have a great handle imho.

could lose the bolster on the mock up and keep the same general shape. or could also use a different material on the bolster instead of metal, make it like a ferrule that's added on the way a bolster gets added onto the handle? like a black g10 bolster/ferrule type of thing in the same shape of what was the brass one?

i dunno, it might change the over all look and look nice together with the cocobolo.

Mrmnms
03-09-2013, 10:29 PM
Sounds good Lefty and Pierre

Pensacola Tiger
03-09-2013, 10:44 PM
:thumbsup:

brainsausage
03-09-2013, 11:20 PM
Sound good?

Yep!

Paradox
03-09-2013, 11:22 PM
Sound good?

Yes.

mr drinky
03-09-2013, 11:47 PM
Cleaver 1 handle look, with bevels like the mock-up?

That sounds good to me. The last cleaver handle (though I do like how sleek it looks) needs a bolster to make it work and then the 01 and bolster won't go well together IMO. I do like some angles on the handle, but yeah, change the bolster. Not a fan of the mock-up bolster at all.

k.

Dusty
03-09-2013, 11:52 PM
I don't know how much it would cost, but how about nickel for the bolster? It looks great on the ux-10'bolsters, distinct, but not blingy.

Chuckles
03-10-2013, 12:09 AM
Sounds good Lefty and Pierre. I hope we are keeping those awesome taper angles from the mock-up. :doublethumbsup:

PierreRodrigue
03-10-2013, 12:10 AM
Gonna try! just have to figure a smooth transition to the G10 bolster, and a way to terminate it.

chinacats
03-10-2013, 12:42 AM
Cleaver 1 handle look, with bevels like the mock-up?

Yes!


Sound good?

Yes!

You guys are rocking this and I think everything is starting to converge.

Cheers!

ThEoRy
03-10-2013, 01:21 AM
Cleaver 1 handle look, with bevels like the mock-up?

I don't like that cleaver handle at all. 2 pins? No thanks. I don't like the shape or the roundness either. The three pin set up on the bottom one is eye catching though especially with the larger center pin. That's the way to go pin wise, seriously. I really do like the mock up as a starting point however. Needs some refinement like rounding on the butt end and tapered tang but I don't really consider that as the handle per se. The bolster is a good start but could also use a slight tweak. I can tell how the tapered angles will be a comfort benefit there as well. I would really love to see it like the mock up only more refined and also with nickel silver instead of copper or brass. Pins too. Nickel silver smaller pins, larger mosaic center. Win.

Von blewitt
03-10-2013, 01:30 AM
I will buy this knife regardless, but my preference would be Pierres mock up, no bolster .

Notaskinnychef
03-10-2013, 02:11 AM
Cleaver 1 handle look, with bevels like the mock-up?

cheers to this. Really look forward to seeing a mock up of this combination :)

PierreRodrigue
03-10-2013, 02:19 AM
Gents. and ladys! I put a bolster thread in my forum to maybe not clutter this on up unnecessarily. Pop by and weigh in.

MikeHL
03-10-2013, 03:03 AM
In my measly n00b opinion I really like the look of the mock up with a darker wood. Really gives it a old school western feel (thinking bowie knife). Not too worried about tarnishing on the metal bolster as the carbon blade would show signs of mistreatment far before the brass bolster would. The cleaver handles do look pretty good and gives it a east meets west vibe. But the mock up just feels right, a classic look for a American made knife.

JohnnyChance
03-10-2013, 04:27 AM
I like the mockup handle, but I prefer a full height bolster, no angled corners. I like the facets, just not the angles at the corners to give the bolster that "rounded" front (as round as an angular bolster can be that is).

pleue
03-10-2013, 05:24 AM
Really not into the angled corners on the bolster as well. I'm also not feeling the cleaver handles at all, they look somewhat sterile and unassertive to me. The mosaic pin ruins the third one for me as well, goes against what I feel the knife is going to stand for. I like the mock-up handle best of the options shown, but I always prefer western handles with a slight hook in the butt of the handle for aesthetics and when using varied grips, it really feels like it locks the knife if your hand when doing tip centric work with your index finger on the spine.

Von blewitt
03-10-2013, 05:50 AM
In Australia we have a saying " a platypus is a duck designed by a committee" I don't think it's possible to reach a "unanimous" design. But the most important thing is not the handle/ bolster its the profile/ grind/ f&f my 2c

Lefty
03-10-2013, 08:48 AM
Huw, I love that saying. It's hilariously funny and incredibly accurate!

As for a bit of clarification on last night's post, I'm wondering about the proportions of cleaver 1's handle (ferrule/bolster length and thin spacer), with a combo of G10 and cocobolo. As for pins, I'm still all for one, but three is good too. I like the look of the two pins on the cleaver handle, but not everyone will, and it's true "decorate in odds"; it appeals to the eye, naturally...kinda like the rule of thirds, in photography.

Anywho, I'll be out and about, because my best-friend is expecting his first child, today!!!!! I'm sure I'll be on here a bit, while waiting. :)

Notaskinnychef
03-10-2013, 09:10 AM
pregrats to your friend, he has got a few months on my wife and I :)

I look forward to another round of handle mock ups.

franzb69
03-10-2013, 09:13 AM
with a combo of G10 and cocobolo. As for pins, I'm still all for one, but three is good too.

i'm in agreement with this. it's always nicer to have an odd number, either 1 pin or 3 pins. =D

same with plating on a dish.... odd numbers are better....

and the g10 cocobolo combo

joetbn
03-10-2013, 10:54 AM
I'm coming late to this party, but it looks like a great project. In my opinion rosewood with brass pins and bolster would look fantastic and be a great nod to historic American craftsmanship. Nice yellow brass would patina right along with the carbon too. Brass pins is also another nod to the old Sab's

PierreRodrigue
03-10-2013, 02:45 PM
Ok, G10 and cocobolo... My wife let me have a few minutes... So its rough!

I tried to incorporate as much as I could from the comments, as well keep simplicity of manufacturing/construction in mind, thus keep cost down.

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0235_zpsa00b9053.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0238_zpsa3ebdc5e.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0237_zps0ee262b1.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0236_zps90e626f9.jpg

Dardeau
03-10-2013, 02:48 PM
That's the one. That does it aesthetically for me.

apicius9
03-10-2013, 02:59 PM
That looks nice, I'd buy that.

Stefan

Pensacola Tiger
03-10-2013, 03:04 PM
Works for me, Pierre.

skiajl6297
03-10-2013, 03:07 PM
Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Love it.

crimedog72
03-10-2013, 03:12 PM
I'm new to this conversation, but this one looks great to me. Looks like it would be comfortable, look is appealing without going overboard.

joetbn
03-10-2013, 03:16 PM
Looks great!

Paradox
03-10-2013, 03:23 PM
AWESOME. Nailed it!

77kath
03-10-2013, 03:25 PM
I like it, too.

Lefty
03-10-2013, 03:30 PM
Yup, that's the one...with a spacer.... :D

RobinW
03-10-2013, 03:38 PM
I think the blade is a tad on the short side...:scratchhead: :D

Anyway, this last one looks really nice. I'd buy that.

toddnmd
03-10-2013, 03:49 PM
Looks great!

don
03-10-2013, 04:30 PM
Nicely done!

Igasho
03-10-2013, 04:34 PM
SOLD! I am actively saving now towards this knife when it comes out!

brainsausage
03-10-2013, 05:20 PM
This gets my vote. And I agree with Tom, a spacer would be preferrable.

PierreRodrigue
03-10-2013, 05:24 PM
So a simple, thin metal spacer, to match which ever pin we use? Whether copper, brass or stainless?

Do we have a group consensus?

Lefty
03-10-2013, 05:27 PM
That's exactly what I'm thinking. You'd know that if you answered my texts, dick! Haha. Just kidding. :D

brainsausage
03-10-2013, 05:28 PM
So a simple, thin metal spacer, to match which ever pin we use? Whether copper, brass or stainless?

Do we have a group consensus?

Single pin, matching spacer IMO.

PierreRodrigue
03-10-2013, 05:32 PM
Unless we use blind pins 3 is better. (2 would be fine as well, but odd numbers have been the dominate voice so far)

Tom ya big lug! Ask a question I can answer instead of a statement! (Sheesh! Live in Ontario and the whole world revolves around you!! :D Your turn! :razz: :peepwall: )

sachem allison
03-10-2013, 05:34 PM
Alright, here we go again. I want to try to get a knife designed, tested and APPROVED by the membership, here. Dave has given us full permission to discuss the project here. I have this, so far, and Lamson is being contacted:

Well, the wheels are in motion...

Also, We likely need about 80 guys (I'm hoping we can bring this down to 50) committed to getting one, in order to make it really happen. Based on comments from a few guys, paired up with ideas I have/also had, my thoughts are going like this:

Lamson, because they deserve to get it right. Brian (at Lamson) cares and from what I've seen, will listen.

Forgecraft profile and maybe even some throwback texturing, if we can. However, slight design changes might happen, as a result of updating the design.

240mm gyuto

Western handle with some flavor.

I'm thinking 2.5-3mm at the heel, with a wicked distal taper, with a combo flat/upper convex (as I call it, almond) grind.

Steel type - either O1, CPM154 (which they're familiar with), or AEB-L. Stainless or carbon has to be decided.

CAD drawing will hopefully be started soon, by a guy who knows a thing or two.

Prototype to be passed around, quickly. Like a "two days and out" kinda thing. I have guys in mind.


As of right now, I say we focus on a gyuto/chef knife, since it's the knife that many of us have 10+ of, and it really is THE kitchen knife. If this actually happens and goes well, we can talk about a suji, petty and parer...though that's probably 320 knives we'd have to commit to, after A LOT of testing and tweaking, on four styles. Pretty daunting, if you ask me.

I coulda sworn the goal was to make a vintage style throwback knife. We are wandering off the path here. Seems like everyone is making their fantasy knife and that is kinda mudding up the waters here. As I understand it the goal is to make an homage knife to the past with modern materials and techniques. We are not making Japanese influenced knives so, wa handles should be out. If you are doing North American vintage knives the vast majority of them have no bolsters or ferrules, Two slabs of wood and 3 to 5 pins. tapered full tang construction on a lot of them and full distal taper on the better ones.

What we can improve upon is the fit and finish, the comfortable shaping of the handle, a good grind, blade geometry and heat treat, Modern steels or vintage steels. This should be a simple, elegant and affordable work horse. less is more here guys. We are over thinking this. we don't even need fancy wood. Remember the wood on these old vintage knives were already high end, rosewood, ebony, cocobolo, walnut and beech. These woods were chosen because they were straight grained, strong woods that required very little maintenance, They were also chosen because with the advent of modern machinery they could be worked easily and with little waste. Any maker here can tell you burl and fancy woods look beautiful but, they are incredibly labor intensive and the waste is ridiculous between, chip outs, bark pockets, stones irregular grain patterns and treatments to stabilize them. All of these things are going to add significant cost to the end product. I don't think the original goal was to make a multi hundred dollar knife. It was to make a high quality, properly ground , heat treated and inexpensive knife accessible to everyone. Lets keep that goal in mind. All of us can get our fantasy knife made by someone we know, this knife is for those people who can't fantasize at that level and shouldn't have too.
Don't want to come off like a dick, just my 2 cents worth.

Mike9
03-10-2013, 05:42 PM
That one get my vote as well - great job!

brainsausage
03-10-2013, 05:44 PM
I coulda sworn the goal was to make a vintage style throwback knife. We are wandering off the path here. Seems like everyone is making their fantasy knife and that is kinda mudding up the waters here. As I understand it the goal is to make an homage knife to the past with modern materials and techniques. We are not making Japanese influenced knives so, wa handles should be out. If you are doing North American vintage knives the vast majority of them have no bolsters or ferrules, Two slabs of wood and 3 to 5 pins. tapered full tang construction on a lot of them and full distal taper on the better ones.

What we can improve upon is the fit and finish, the comfortable shaping of the handle, a good grind, blade geometry and heat treat, Modern steels or vintage steels. This should be a simple, elegant and affordable work horse. less is more here guys. We are over thinking this. we don't even need fancy wood. Remember the wood on these old vintage knives were already high end, rosewood, ebony, cocobolo, walnut and beech. These woods were chosen because they were straight grained, strong woods that required very little maintenance, They were also chosen because with the advent of modern machinery they could be worked easily and with little waste. Any maker here can tell you burl and fancy woods look beautiful but, they are incredibly labor intensive and the waste is ridiculous between, chip outs, bark pockets, stones irregular grain patterns and treatments to stabilize them. All of these things are going to add significant cost to the end product. I don't think the original goal was to make a multi hundred dollar knife. It was to make a high quality, properly ground , heat treated and inexpensive knife accessible to everyone. Lets keep that goal in mind. All of us can get our fantasy knife made by someone we know, this knife is for those people who can't fantasize at that level and shouldn't have too.
Don't want to come off like a dick, just my 2 cents worth.

I believe the primary focus is still there. There has been some fantasy posts here and there, but the general impetus seems to be geared toward a modern throwback, that can be produced on a large scale, without feeling like a mass produced knife. Emphasis there on modern btw.

don
03-10-2013, 05:53 PM
I coulda sworn the goal was to make a vintage style throwback knife. We are wandering off the path here. Seems like everyone is making their fantasy knife and that is kinda mudding up the waters here. As I understand it the goal is to make an homage knife to the past with modern materials and techniques. We are not making Japanese influenced knives so, wa handles should be out. If you are doing North American vintage knives the vast majority of them have no bolsters or ferrules, Two slabs of wood and 3 to 5 pins. tapered full tang construction on a lot of them and full distal taper on the better ones.

What we can improve upon is the fit and finish, the comfortable shaping of the handle, a good grind, blade geometry and heat treat, Modern steels or vintage steels. This should be a simple, elegant and affordable work horse. less is more here guys. We are over thinking this. we don't even need fancy wood. Remember the wood on these old vintage knives were already high end, rosewood, ebony, cocobolo, walnut and beech. These woods were chosen because they were straight grained, strong woods that required very little maintenance, They were also chosen because with the advent of modern machinery they could be worked easily and with little waste. Any maker here can tell you burl and fancy woods look beautiful but, they are incredibly labor intensive and the waste is ridiculous between, chip outs, bark pockets, stones irregular grain patterns and treatments to stabilize them. All of these things are going to add significant cost to the end product. I don't think the original goal was to make a multi hundred dollar knife. It was to make a high quality, properly ground , heat treated and inexpensive knife accessible to everyone. Lets keep that goal in mind. All of us can get our fantasy knife made by someone we know, this knife is for those people who can't fantasize at that level and shouldn't have too.
Don't want to come off like a dick, just my 2 cents worth.

I think that this was one of the major forks on the project initially. It could have been combined, but the fork as I read was:
1) vintage throwback with modern grind, geometry, proper HT, and quality fit and finish
2) knife that KKF members would recommend without hestitation, better than Shuns, Globals, Germans, and Hattori FH.

This knife is on more on path 2) once we went sabatier profile and passed on single wood scales, which is fine with me. I would also enjoy a 1) per Son's outline. Perhaps if this knife is successful, Lefty and Pierre would organize something along this path.

Lefty
03-10-2013, 06:03 PM
We hope so, Don. :D

labor of love
03-10-2013, 06:11 PM
its pretty easy IMO to find a 150-250ish knife that can outperform shuns, globals, german stainless and hattori FH. i dont really think were filling a void there. i think the spirit of this project is to make an american made performer with a great grind, steel, heat treat from a factory with american materials. that is what will separate this knife from everything else out there, right? as long as the handle has a comfortable in hand feel, im happy.
i also dont want to make a vintage knife replica, but a modern knife that pays homage to the knife making history america had once(lamson). does that make sense?

statusquo
03-10-2013, 06:46 PM
The new mock up looks great. Doesn't need a spacer from my perspective.

The hekler
03-10-2013, 06:47 PM
I didn't read through all 40 some pages but I followed for the first 10 or so, I thought the idea was to produce a high quality, American made knife that pays homage to the old American maker ie forge craft and the like but with better quality materials. I would be interested if we could keep the knife as cheap as possible with ought sacrificing quality. To that end is there anything wrong with solid g10 scales? Nothing fancy just simple black or the like 2-3 pins and a decent blade.

labor of love
03-10-2013, 06:49 PM
please excuse the first person point of view in my last post. im not doing anything besides being a keyboard critic lol. it is interesting that we figured out steel and profile pretty quick compared to handle and bolster decisions. i hope we can find a happy middle ground that everyone can be happy with.

ThEoRy
03-10-2013, 07:52 PM
I like the new mock up a lot. would prefer it with a silver spacer too but if not I think we'll live.

PierreRodrigue
03-10-2013, 08:31 PM
I understand the original goal was a throwback design. A solid carbon steel (O1) A solid retro-ish profile (A tweaked sab profile) Natural stable wood (cocobolo)

The hickups were on which handle. This is where we explored new territory. Some wanted wa, some wanted western, some bolsters, some no bolsters, some one pin some 3 pins. This made it tough to please everybody 100%. Ain't gonna happen...

So Here are my thoughts, to take some of most of the wants and make a handle that when looked at is understated and different, yet embodies the spirit of what we started to create.

How can a geometric octagonal Wa, and a curvy western be combined? I tried to combine the taper of a wa, the height and width of a western, the facets of a wa, and some of the westerns curves and feel. How do we do a cross on a bolster, and no bolster... we cant. BUT, we can use materials that are visually subdued, and still aesthetically pleasing. Copper wasn't the answer, or the first mockup, so back to the drawing board. G10 shaped to match the facets on the handle.

How do we pay homage to the handles of old, yet not make a copy? To that end, we have the flats and beveled corners, slightly tapering handle, with three pins. Why not a traditional wood. No real reason, only there are other choices that have nice figure, are solid, and relatively stable. Why add G10? I think capping the end of the handle at the "food" end makes sense for cleanliness, comfort, and looks. Check out some of the 50 plus year old knives with straight wood handles out there. The fronts are stained, chipped, splitting, lifting etc. Could we have gone that route? Yes. Is there a real reason apart from historical accuracy to do it? I don't know. We are paying homage to an old style, top materials, and having it built by the oldest knife maker, I think, in North America. We have a chance to build the next classic (hopefully!) with input from a large group of knife enthusiasts who can say "we were part of that".

I don't want to sound corny (too late I fear! lol!) there is no way to please all of you who posted ideas, but we took what most of you liked, and trashed most of what you didn't like. All the while trying to keep some tradition in the design, and bring that tradition into the present.

Look at it this way. We have designed a knife from the ground up in a week that may not be historically accurate, but has its roots in history. When you look at it, you will see Sab, Forgecraft, and even Lamson.
We agreed to use a company that hasn't been given the time of day around here, give them a chance to do it our way, and generated some excitement doing it! Nearly 14000 views in a week! Either your interested in the knife, or your interested in the process of the design, but hell! Thanks for being part of it!

Now. Any other things we need to work on? We got time and resources! A prototype is next!

Lefty
03-10-2013, 08:34 PM
Still at the hospital, waiting, but, VERY well said Pierre. I knew I partnered up with the right guy (2 years ago, but that's neither here nor there).

Awesome work!

ThEoRy
03-10-2013, 08:45 PM
I've gotta get in on a prototype pass around if there is one.

Meanwhile, lets make a list of things that are locked down and things that are still being messed with so we can focus our further efforts on refinement towards the Alpha stage.

brainsausage
03-10-2013, 08:52 PM
How far do we want to go in terms of F/F? What can we reasonably expect from a semi mass produced knife? The first relatively pricey knife I bought was the THAT Hattori, and the spine/choil was quite sharp. Probably my biggest gripe with that knife besides the steel. I'm assuming that rounding the spine and choil will be a given. But what about easing the heel? Makes it much easier when wiping the blade between use. And what type of finish? I'm not a big fan of mirror finishes mostly because they seem a bit stickier to me, and seem to diminish very quickly with heavy use.

PierreRodrigue
03-10-2013, 08:59 PM
Finish will be similar to a scotch brite finish, just more refined. Choil and spine nicely rounded. We can soften the heel if that is a design addition agreed to by the masses. Fit and finish? Tight!

LOCKED DOWN...

Profile (waiting on input for the heel)
Steel - O1
Hardness - HRC 62 +- .5
Finish - Satin machine finish
Geometry - Convexed?
Handle material - Cocobolo and G10
Handle shape - Mock up #2
Pins - 3 Maybe a larger center pin, no mosaic
Spacer - a thin one to match the pin?
Spine and Choil - Rounded

The red is what I need confirmation on. Anything else Speak up!!

brainsausage
03-10-2013, 09:08 PM
Finish sounds perfect to me. Upon reflection, I realize the rounded heel may take a little more effort on the future owners part to maintain. I personally think its worth the effort, but I can understand why some others might not prefer it.

PierreRodrigue
03-10-2013, 09:08 PM
DELETED BY ME!!

apicius9
03-10-2013, 09:12 PM
I don't need a spacer, just adds cost. And I will gladly leave the blade decisions to those who know more about these things...

Stefan

brainsausage
03-10-2013, 09:13 PM
I prefer a single pin if we're gonna go the spacer route- three otherwise, convex grind.

ThEoRy
03-10-2013, 09:35 PM
Don't round the heel. If someone wants it rounded, they can just do it on a plate or stone VERY easily.

"S" shaped grind, combination convex/concave.

I'm all for the thin metal spacer.

PierreRodrigue
03-10-2013, 09:37 PM
S shaped grind isn't gonna happen on a mechanized line... Convex yes. Flat yes, Hollow maybe, combination - nope.

Leaving the heel square makes better sense.

ThEoRy
03-10-2013, 10:38 PM
True, I didn't think about the machine processing. Convexed it is then.

labor of love
03-10-2013, 10:48 PM
early on it was mentioned the grind would be 50/50. im assuming equal convexing for both sides of the blade?

brainsausage
03-10-2013, 10:59 PM
early on it was mentioned the grind would be 50/50. im assuming equal convexing for both sides of the blade?

Good point.

franzb69
03-10-2013, 11:20 PM
i like the 2nd mock up better =D

PierreRodrigue
03-10-2013, 11:26 PM
early on it was mentioned the grind would be 50/50. im assuming equal convexing for both sides of the blade?
That is the plan!

Justin0505
03-10-2013, 11:26 PM
-The G10 bolster is a nice compromise both in terms of bosters vs no bolser and in natural vs synth materials.

-no spacer! Why must some people try to add complexity at ever step? OCCAM'S RAZOR AS APPLIED TO DESIGN!!!!!


-I don't really care about pin color / material, but it seems like brass might be easier to sand down if / when the handle needed to be re-finished. Just keep them all the same size.

HHH Knives
03-10-2013, 11:41 PM
Whatever you guys come up with is OK with me. Im digging the "plan" so far and looking forward to getting one of these! :D

Chuckles
03-10-2013, 11:51 PM
I love the 2nd mock up!
I think a spacer would add cost but not value.
Convex grind... Does that mean the same thing to any two people?

PierreRodrigue
03-11-2013, 12:10 AM
The blade will have a geometry, that is convexed in a way to aid in food release. I will grind a prototype, to provide Lamson. This way, the know exactly how to shape it.

DSChief
03-11-2013, 12:11 AM
Ok, G10 and cocobolo... My wife let me have a few minutes... So its rough!

I tried to incorporate as much as I could from the comments, as well keep simplicity of manufacturing/construction in mind, thus keep cost down.

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0235_zpsa00b9053.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0238_zpsa3ebdc5e.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0237_zps0ee262b1.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0236_zps90e626f9.jpg

+1 vote for this, but I'd prefer to get one with a little longer blade. How long do the experts think before we have a ball park guess as to
the pain our wallets will feel?

PierreRodrigue
03-11-2013, 12:26 AM
The blade will cost extra! Lol! We should have a ball park in a couple days. Its looking good!

labor of love
03-11-2013, 12:29 AM
basically every left handed member should jump on this knife. talk about filling a void. not alot of lefty friendly factory knives out there.

franzb69
03-11-2013, 12:39 AM
basically every left handed member should jump on this knife. talk about filling a void. not alot of lefty friendly factory knives out there.

yep yep yep.

Lefty
03-11-2013, 12:40 AM
The lefty friendly aspect was a must! Sorry I'm quiet...still waiting!

Thanks for taking care of this right now, Pierre.

G-rat
03-11-2013, 01:08 AM
Dang...that mock up from Pierre is sweet. This is cool beans for the knife we have been talking about. Man. I love this place. Kind of special to see something like this come together with not only enthusiasm but some serious design and thought by everyone here but especially Pierre and Lefty and their hard ass work on this.

labor of love
03-11-2013, 01:33 AM
Dang...that mock up from Pierre is sweet. This is cool beans for the knife we have been talking about. Man. I love this place. Kind of special to see something like this come together with not only enthusiasm but some serious design and thought by everyone here but especially Pierre and Lefty and their hard ass work on this.

+1

Notaskinnychef
03-11-2013, 01:43 AM
Dang...that mock up from Pierre is sweet. This is cool beans for the knife we have been talking about. Man. I love this place. Kind of special to see something like this come together with not only enthusiasm but some serious design and thought by everyone here but especially Pierre and Lefty and their hard ass work on this.

+2 :)

great work

brainsausage
03-11-2013, 01:47 AM
Dang...that mock up from Pierre is sweet. This is cool beans for the knife we have been talking about. Man. I love this place. Kind of special to see something like this come together with not only enthusiasm but some serious design and thought by everyone here but especially Pierre and Lefty and their hard ass work on this.

Yup. Thanks to both of those crazy Canucks! And this awesome forum!

Stumblinman
03-11-2013, 03:05 AM
I can't wait for my knife to be ready... :spin chair: and oh yeah, that was a lotta reading. :) great job, great process, great project management!@!

pleue
03-11-2013, 03:16 AM
I vote convexed and no rounded heel. I really would prefer the look/harkening back to older knife making of a brass bolster but shaped like the 2nd mock-up but understand that it seems to be locked in. No spacer in my opinion.

Notaskinnychef
03-11-2013, 03:29 AM
i continue to come back to this thread to re read stuff, so interesting, love this place

jigert
03-11-2013, 03:41 AM
Really like that handle! I don't feel there's need for a spacer. And three pins in the same size would do it. I don't have much to say on the grind since I would be talking out of my behind. Concave or flat, as long as it's well done and thin behind the edge. Great job, Tom and Pierre! (And everyone else) Can't wait to see a prototype.

ecchef
03-11-2013, 03:59 AM
Really like that handle! I don't feel there's need for a spacer. And three pins in the same size would do it. Concave or flat, as long as it's well done and thin behind the edge. Great job, Tom and Pierre! (And everyone else) Can't wait to see a prototype.

:plus1:

One thing I was thinking about was the use of Loveless bolts for the scales. A lot of vintage knives used something like that. It would be a little unique without the pretentiousness of mosaic pins.

RoanRoks29
03-11-2013, 09:37 AM
I am loving this !! 47 pages of Pure Enthusiasm!! I cant wait to see the Prototype, It is sounding FREAKING AWESOME!!!!!!!

kalaeb
03-11-2013, 12:01 PM
Lol, I give up trying to follow this thread. 48 pages in 10 days. Has to be some sort of record.

Lefty
03-11-2013, 12:16 PM
That's kinda our style....

pleue
03-11-2013, 02:31 PM
here's a few folder pics I gleaned with brass/dark wood. The second shows some patina.

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee372/DaveAtPB/Knives/f6b1bef5.jpg
http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z373/EDCgear/PICT0422.jpg

franzb69
03-11-2013, 02:47 PM
both harken to classic combinations on non kitchen knives such as ones you've posted and fixed blades like hunting knives....

i'm good either way g10 or brass/copper/bronze

but i am leaning more towards g10 for aesthetics.

DSChief
03-12-2013, 12:57 AM
a thought just popped into my head, in all the talk about the esthetics of the handle, I can't find any mention of actual specs.
My 8" & 10" chef's knives have handles at least 5 1/2 " long 1 1/8 H & 3/4" W. I know every one doesn't have big mitts
but I need enough wood so it doesn't feel like a #2 pencil

pleue
03-12-2013, 06:29 AM
how come my previous post asking about input on bolsters got deleted?

franzb69
03-12-2013, 06:45 AM
how come my previous post asking about input on bolsters got deleted?

the bolster topic got moved over to pierre's thread on bolster options in his own area of the forum.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forumdisplay.php/48-Rodrigue-Knives

labor of love
03-16-2013, 12:56 PM
has anyone thought about the weight? maybe not an exact weight but a ball park preference? i think 220grams or so would be the in the neighborhood of what i would like.

panda
04-09-2013, 03:46 AM
nm, didn't read all five million pages and a lot of things are already locked down which i'm not excited about.

what about a KKF version of DT ITK for pro use?

Beohbe
04-09-2013, 07:54 AM
nm, didn't read all five million pages and a lot of things are already locked down which i'm not excited about.

what about a KKF version of DT ITK for pro use?

Why not just get a DT ITK? They work great for pro use.

ThEoRy
04-09-2013, 10:22 AM
nm, didn't read all five million pages and a lot of things are already locked down which i'm not excited about.

what about a KKF version of DT ITK for pro use?

Ummm just get a DT ITK??? :dontknow:

K-Fed
04-09-2013, 10:28 AM
Why not just get a DT ITK? They work great for pro use.

Sure do =)

skiajl6297
04-09-2013, 10:30 AM
Not to take this too far off topic, but how many DT ITK's are there out there circulating? They haven't been available for some time for new purchase correct? Just BST dreaming?

stevenStefano
04-09-2013, 11:45 AM
Not to take this too far off topic, but how many DT ITK's are there out there circulating? They haven't been available for some time for new purchase correct? Just BST dreaming?

Well about 4 appeared on BST over the course of a month not long ago

echerub
04-09-2013, 12:12 PM
They come in spurts. They also go quite quickly when they do show up.

labor of love
04-09-2013, 11:02 PM
Well about 4 appeared on BST over the course of a month not long ago

I think if you post a WTB DT ITK under BST you should find one.

NO ChoP!
05-02-2013, 10:37 PM
Pretty sure there were hundreds made...

Chuckles
05-08-2013, 12:58 AM
Any updates? I caught myself daydreaming about this knife a few times on the expo line tonight. Really looking forward to it.

El Pescador
05-08-2013, 01:32 AM
Pretty sure there were hundreds made...

Good question for Hoss but I bet less than 150 240mm and 270mm gyutos were made. I own 2, one for each hand.