PDA

View Full Version : Possible Lamson Collaboration Line of Knives



Pages : [1] 2

franzb69
03-01-2013, 10:50 AM
Okay, so in spirit of the idea of a possible KKF line.... it has been suggested that we make a new thread

so here it is!

Firstly, we need Dave's blessing or permission.....

then if that's a go

we need a certain number of people.

Lefty said it would be probably 80 people for a chef knife then a possible batch of other knives in the future.

then we can start throwing ideas in as to what the knife will look like, perform and materials used.

I'll let the others who really had this idea talk, I'm just showing that I'm this serious to wanna be in this.

=D

Lefty
03-01-2013, 10:56 AM
Guys, we're going to have to discuss this possibility over at my sub-forum. Dave has given us full blessing, but unfortunately, with everything involved, we won't be able to call it the "KKF Knife". Let's move this topic over to my sub-forum.

I guess it's the "to London Chef Knife".

Thanks for letting us discuss it and use the community like this, Dave!

Lefty
03-01-2013, 11:00 AM
Alright, here we go again. I want to try to get a knife designed, tested and APPROVED by the membership, here. Dave has given us full permission to discuss the project here. I have this, so far, and Lamson is being contacted:

Well, the wheels are in motion...

Also, We likely need about 80 guys (I'm hoping we can bring this down to 50) committed to getting one, in order to make it really happen. Based on comments from a few guys, paired up with ideas I have/also had, my thoughts are going like this:

Lamson, because they deserve to get it right. Brian (at Lamson) cares and from what I've seen, will listen.

Forgecraft profile and maybe even some throwback texturing, if we can. However, slight design changes might happen, as a result of updating the design.

240mm gyuto

Western handle with some flavor.

I'm thinking 2.5-3mm at the heel, with a wicked distal taper, with a combo flat/upper convex (as I call it, almond) grind.

Steel type - either O1, CPM154 (which they're familiar with), or AEB-L. Stainless or carbon has to be decided.

CAD drawing will hopefully be started soon, by a guy who knows a thing or two.

Prototype to be passed around, quickly. Like a "two days and out" kinda thing. I have guys in mind.


As of right now, I say we focus on a gyuto/chef knife, since it's the knife that many of us have 10+ of, and it really is THE kitchen knife. If this actually happens and goes well, we can talk about a suji, petty and parer...though that's probably 320 knives we'd have to commit to, after A LOT of testing and tweaking, on four styles. Pretty daunting, if you ask me.

Lefty
03-01-2013, 11:22 AM
This is a full collaboration project, so I want everyone interested to put your opinion out there. I need to know: Carbon or Stainless? Wa or Western? Handle Material? Is everyone good with a throwback design, in the spirit of me loving vintage knives so much (just like many others here)?

franzb69
03-01-2013, 11:24 AM
awesome! =D

Mike9
03-01-2013, 11:32 AM
This is a great idea and I know Lamson does AEB-L :bliss:

franzb69
03-01-2013, 11:33 AM
sandwiched like a western handle but an octagonal wa like handle? =D also easier to make grinding off a square-ish handle to 8 sides....

stainless might be a good option for newer people, can always get a carbon version later on.......

but i do love me some carbon....

would love that forgecraft texturing put on there for a vintage look

El Pescador
03-01-2013, 11:35 AM
Why Forgecraft? If I was to remake a knife I'd look to recreate a Sabatier in CPM154. The only thing I'd do different is raise and reprofile the bolster to be able to sharpen the heel.

Jmadams13
03-01-2013, 11:49 AM
O1 western would be interesting. I might be in the minority here, but I really like bolsterless westerns, but I know I'm alone on this.

On the fordgecraft pattern, that would be interesting, but most of us who like that, have a few already.

I'm so in on this, and I'll think of some more ideas and post them later.

Also, something tall would be nice. Not to many tall gyuto's out there, unless we want to pay Butch prices, not a bad thing, but we all can't afford that.

Handle material.... Something fun, but maybe with classic look and feel

labor of love
03-01-2013, 11:50 AM
so how about a 50/50 grind? lefty friendly?

labor of love
03-01-2013, 11:52 AM
Why Forgecraft? If I was to remake a knife I'd look to recreate a Sabatier in CPM154. The only thing I'd do different is raise and reprofile the bolster to be able to sharpen the heel.

+1 to cloning a sab. and giving it 61-62 hrc.

franzb69
03-01-2013, 11:54 AM
a yes and a yes to 50/50 grind! =p

if it's gonna be carbon, we gotta find out what swedish carbon steel misono uses on their swedish line!! =D

no bolster would help keep the costs down though

Jmadams13
03-01-2013, 12:01 PM
I do like the Sab idea, but maybe without a finger guard at all, but the same profile

Lefty
03-01-2013, 12:06 PM
Awesome. This is what we need.

I'll tell you, we got a definite "I'm interested" from Lamson, so this is a definite possibility. It'll take time to figure it out, but the first part is figuring out a profile. Here's where the membership comes in huge. Let's figure out a profile. If you guys have one you love, or elements you love, attach a sketch/photo/whatever showing me what you would like to see. First things we need to figure out are profile and while we do this, there's no reason we can't figure out the steel type.

So attach those pics, guys!

skiajl6297
03-01-2013, 12:11 PM
No preference on steel other than that it be something these guys do well, Western, 50/50 profile, agree with concerns about sharpening heel if going Sab route. For handle, I'm thinking reminiscent of vintage simplicity in terms of shape and size, but with fit and finish of modern rehandles using upscale and unique wood and finishing touches, e.g. custom or or brass pins, etc. Something that pays homage to the vintage look while clearly showing that it is modern and gorgeous. I'm definitely interested in this.

Lefty
03-01-2013, 12:15 PM
This knife will be 50/50, by the way

franzb69
03-01-2013, 12:18 PM
was thinking of brass pins as well

Lefty
03-01-2013, 12:20 PM
Haha. We'll get that sorted...AFTER A PROFILE! :D

Seriously, if this is really happening, we need to decide on it first. The rest is just details.

stevenStefano
03-01-2013, 12:24 PM
Any vague ideas about a price point?

franzb69
03-01-2013, 12:27 PM
Any vague ideas about a price point?

the materials and the design will pretty much dictate that me thinks.


yes to a sab profile +1

77kath
03-01-2013, 12:32 PM
Another yes to sab profile without bolster if you are willing to add females to this party.

Lefty
03-01-2013, 12:35 PM
Only females from San Antonio and wherever Lucretia (Sharpshooter) is from.

Are we talking Nogent or the other Sab?

labor of love
03-01-2013, 12:35 PM
im down with a forgecraft profile, or sab, or whatever. as long as its on the flat side. i like 240mm knives that run long...245-250mm, if possible. maybe 50mm in height at the choil?

kalaeb
03-01-2013, 12:36 PM
I am in. I will toss a few ideas out on profile once I get off work.

franzb69
03-01-2013, 12:39 PM
50-52mm? =D

chinacats
03-01-2013, 12:49 PM
Woo-Hoo, Lefty you are the man! I am interested. I also vote for the Sab profile (minus or minimized of the nasty finger guard/bolster), 50/50 sounds good. I would prefer carbon (maybe 01). If not carbon, is there any semi-stainless which might get us the best of both worlds? +1 to ~50mm on the heel. Oh yeah, traditional rather than nogent.

Cheers

K-Fed
03-01-2013, 01:07 PM
I always loved the profile of the sab on the bottom. Nice flat spot without too much belly in the tip.
http://i.imgur.com/35sV6.jpg

brainsausage
03-01-2013, 01:07 PM
Flat Sab/forgecraft hybrid. I think it should go with out saying at this point that there wouldn't be a finger guard style bolster. I'm thinking 3.5-4 mm at the spine choil point, convex grind down to 1mm or less at the heel. And a wicked distal taper. I'm trying to remember who had a custom updated Sab, I think it was Canadian, and I believe Pierre did it. I could be wrong on both those counts, but I really enjoyed the look of that knife in terms of profile. Anybody remember what I'm talking about?

Pensacola Tiger
03-01-2013, 01:09 PM
Yeah, AEB-L is nice.

Lefty
03-01-2013, 01:11 PM
Sab sounds very promising. I love the bottom knife. I actually just got my best-friend a Sab for his birthday. Kinda says what I think of them. :)

And yup, it was Canadian and Pierre. I know the current owner really well, so it might be a great starting point. With that being said, let's keep the ideas for profile coming.

Jmadams13
03-01-2013, 01:19 PM
I'm too digging that bottom Sab. It would be really interesting to go with a classic French profile, albeit a little thinner. Nt laser thin, but thinner than say the traditional French style

franzb69
03-01-2013, 01:19 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/552396_10151109461012691_1757883574_n.jpg

old hickory profile wouldn't be so bad either =D

but yeah sabs is good


seems to me the top sab on is the original profile then when it got used the profile started to look like the one on the bottom.... just an observation (i'm more than likely wrong, lol)

Pensacola Tiger
03-01-2013, 01:26 PM
Flat Sab/forgecraft hybrid. I think it should go with out saying at this point that there wouldn't be a finger guard style bolster. I'm thinking 3.5-4 mm at the spine choil point, convex grind down to 1mm or less at the heel. And a wicked distal taper. I'm trying to remember who had a custom updated Sab, I think it was Canadian, and I believe Pierre did it. I could be wrong on both those counts, but I really enjoyed the look of that knife in terms of profile. Anybody remember what I'm talking about?

If you are referring to this knife, I'd be happy to provide measurements. It is close to a Sabatier profile, but not exact. The tip is a little lower.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pierre%20Rodrigue%2010%20in%20CPM154%20chefs/file_zps6a084c5b.jpg

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pierre%20Rodrigue%2010%20in%20CPM154%20chefs/file_zps682ba604.jpg

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pierre%20Rodrigue%2010%20in%20CPM154%20chefs/file_zps259490bc.jpg

mhlee
03-01-2013, 01:31 PM
I've got a question about the grind.

Why the "combo flat/upper convex (as I call it, almond) grind"? The best performing knives I've used/owned are extremely thin behind the edge, but were also convex ground on the lower half of the knife above the edge (e.g., SFGZ Carter - which is convexed in the lower half and concave in the upper half, Mario, Kochi, Gesshin Ginga - slightly convexed because it's a laser). Also, IIRC, the Tilman knife I used and the Gengetsu I used had convex grinds in the lower half of the blade above the edge.

Miles
03-01-2013, 01:38 PM
Sab/KS shape sounds very interesting indeed. Skip the bolster for sure. Wa handle??? Nothing too flashy but utilitarian for the handle. I'm pretty attached to the flat left side in Japanese blades, but if the grind is right, I can get into a 50/50. I'd love to see something close to a Suisin IH in feel but with a bit more of the Sab/KS profile.

Lefty
03-01-2013, 01:57 PM
Technically, not flat...very very slight convex at the bottom. However, to go thin, it has to be fairly flat just above the edge. Convex up above "above the edge" for release. Though that will all be part of the testing stages. For now, profile is what we need to start with.

brainsausage
03-01-2013, 02:17 PM
If you are referring to this knife, I'd be happy to provide measurements. It is close to a Sabatier profile, but not exact. The tip is a little lower.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pierre%20Rodrigue%2010%20in%20CPM154%20chefs/file_zps6a084c5b.jpg

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pierre%20Rodrigue%2010%20in%20CPM154%20chefs/file_zps682ba604.jpg

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pierre%20Rodrigue%2010%20in%20CPM154%20chefs/file_zps259490bc.jpg

Yes! This is a nice profile IMO. Not to derail- but I think it's somewhat pertinent- how does it perform Rick? And I'm speaking strictly in regards to the blade profile btw.

Chuckles
03-01-2013, 02:29 PM
Sab profile - K Fed's bottom pic

O1 @ 61

Possibility of buying without handle? I'm sure half of them wil end up being rehandled anyway.

vicv
03-01-2013, 02:30 PM
Yes! This is a nice profile IMO. Not to derail- but I think it's somewhat pertinent- how does it perform Rick? And I'm speaking strictly in regards to the blade profile btw.

I agree. This profile looks really good. 01 somewhere at 61-63. I like both style handles but that'll be for later

Lefty
03-01-2013, 02:43 PM
Nah, I think we're gong with the whole kit on this one. Maybe it's ego, or a desire for order, but I want these to at least start out all the same. Don't worry, though, the handles will be great...when we get there. :D

wellminded1
03-01-2013, 02:45 PM
Id like to be in on this, although I am not as knowledgable as most here on profiles and what not. Still love me a great knife.

wsfarrell
03-01-2013, 03:06 PM
I always loved the profile of the sab on the bottom. Nice flat spot without too much belly in the tip.
http://i.imgur.com/35sV6.jpg

+1 to that.

You can get vintage ones in carbon, though the blades are often bent. A new one in state-of-the-art semi-stainless, with an unbent blade and 3 brass rivets in the handle, would be a stone winner.

jigert
03-01-2013, 03:12 PM
I would definitely be in on this! I really like the look of the bottom sab K-fed posted. And since it's an 'hommage' to ODC's I think it should be carbon and western handle. Maybe a take on forgecrafts handles. But what do I know? Great initiative, Tom!

Lefty
03-01-2013, 03:15 PM
The Sab profile seems to be a runaway favourite, so far. Do you guys like the slightly bellied tip, or is a flatter, more Kramer inspired tip better?

Pensacola Tiger
03-01-2013, 03:33 PM
Yes! This is a nice profile IMO. Not to derail- but I think it's somewhat pertinent- how does it perform Rick? And I'm speaking strictly in regards to the blade profile btw.

Pierre's interpretation of the Sabatier profile performs extremely well. The curve of the edge starts a bit earlier, and adds a "gyuto flavor" to the profile, if that makes any sense. I'd have to flip a coin to decide which I favor, Pierre's or the classic.

Lefty
03-01-2013, 03:37 PM
Pierre and I have bee discussing this all day, and we don't think it's a good idea to do an exact replica of anything. However, he would be more than fine with it being like his, but with a couple tweaks I'd like to see (and you guys). I'm thinking tighten up the ricasso, or even make it a bit angled, rather than curved. Thoughts?

Mike9
03-01-2013, 03:57 PM
Here is an old Lamson 10" - it has a very nice profile and I did not change anything when I refurbed and rehandled it.


http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11357&d=1352493481&thumb=1

don
03-01-2013, 04:10 PM
Agreed that this knife should not be a copy, especially one of the custom makers we support on KKF.

k-fed's bottom sabatier profile in O1 @ 61 HRC sounds grand to me. I had suggested a forgecraft profile as that strikes me as an american knife (no doubt the result of KKF). And an updated version would be nice. However, a sabatier in harder steel is something that doesn't exist in the market (at least to my knowledge) and this would have much broader appeal.

Anyways, I'm down for a knife.

Lefty
03-01-2013, 04:15 PM
I wonder what the numbers are without even a sketch? This is great, guys!

chinacats
03-01-2013, 04:19 PM
Pierre and I have bee discussing this all day, and we don't think it's a good idea to do an exact replica of anything. However, he would be more than fine with it being like his, but with a couple tweaks I'd like to see (and you guys). I'm thinking tighten up the ricasso, or even make it a bit angled, rather than curved. Thoughts?

Honestly, the input seems fairly consistent and I think that with a little bit of 'help' from Pierre that you will wind up making something that works great for most everyone. That being said, I will show my ignorance (even after a site and google search) and ask what exactly is the ricasso? Seems to be near the handle, but I can't picture it even with pictures. :newhere:

Lefty
03-01-2013, 04:23 PM
It could also be the choil. Haha. To me, ricasso means anything past the bolster, towards the handle, in terms of kitchen knives, that doesn't have an edge.

Choil makes me think underside. Meh.

PierreRodrigue
03-01-2013, 04:36 PM
Hi guys, I'm with Tom on this one, with regards to copying a major brand. But tweaking, and changing thins enough to keep the "spirit" of the design is fairly safe. Don't be afraid of using my profile. Even tweaking it. I'm happy to use it.

cnochef
03-01-2013, 05:59 PM
Great, so this will be a true KKF knife. I'm in.

+1 for modern Sab: No bolster, CPM 154 or AEB-L steel, KKF etching, maybe really special lot of handle wood (from Burl Source perhaps?)

Saya or leather sheath to make it really special?

cnochef
03-01-2013, 06:03 PM
So why doesn't Pierre just do it?

Or is it too many knives for a small operation?

IMHO It would make it even more special to be made by one of us.

El Pescador
03-01-2013, 06:17 PM
I've used the AEB-L that has come out of Lamson and it left a lot to be desired.

marc4pt0
03-01-2013, 06:19 PM
I'm totally in on this. Love the idea of the bottom Sab in carbon, but the singer cpm154 doesn't bad either. My choice would be carbon though.
As for the blade, a strong distal taper will be great! And I think a western "coke bottle" handle makes perfect sense, given the nature of the assignment, it's "origin" and the company making it. Lamson used to make a beautiful cherry wood handle, I have a couple, that wood look nice.

Tom, count me in!

bikehunter
03-01-2013, 06:21 PM
I'd be nice if we could keep the steel, wood, etc. reasonable so that the price would be within the reach of some of us ordinary people...but I suspect that isn't likely to happen. ;-).

vicv
03-01-2013, 06:36 PM
I'd be nice if we could keep the steel, wood, etc. reasonable so that the price would be within the reach of some of us ordinary people...but I suspect that isn't likely to happen. ;-).

I second this. Great idea though! If we can keep it under the $100 mark it'll be a knife for the people!

bikehunter
03-01-2013, 06:49 PM
I second this. Great idea though! If we can keep it under the $100 mark it'll be a knife for the people!

Well, I think that would be too much to hope for (if even possible) but under 200 would be good. (Not gonna happen. <g>)

Lefty
03-01-2013, 06:58 PM
We'll try to keep it as low as we can. :D

Von blewitt
03-01-2013, 06:59 PM
I'm keen I like the idea of a Forgecraft profile, but would also be in for a Sab style, I would prefer carbon

vicv
03-01-2013, 07:02 PM
It's no problem. It's always a trade off of price vs quality. Depends what's more important to more of us. The artifex falls under $100 made by L&S but apparently not very good either. I'm still very interested how this'll turn out

Lefty
03-01-2013, 07:03 PM
If we commit, make it happen and test it thoroughly, as we will, it's gong to be one hell of a knife.

bikehunter
03-01-2013, 07:10 PM
We'll try to keep it as low as we can.




That's all anyone can ask.

brainsausage
03-01-2013, 07:21 PM
So why doesn't Pierre just do it?

Or is it too many knives for a small operation?

IMHO It would make it even more special to be made by one of us.

Correct me if I'm wrong here Tom-

I think a big part of this process is to help Lamson improve their overall product quality.

knyfeknerd
03-01-2013, 07:29 PM
Definitely carbon, 01 is awesome or 52100 maybe.
Love the profile/style ideas guys, but I say meh to a 240, so I'm out.
Peace

stevenStefano
03-01-2013, 07:33 PM
I understand why you'd do a 240 but I am in the same boat as knyfenerd, I just don't use 'em. I do still find the process and idea interesting

Lefty
03-01-2013, 07:35 PM
Ouch!

And yeah, a lot of it is because I think they can do a great job with it at Lamson (we are the designers and QC).

Zwiefel
03-01-2013, 07:41 PM
My $.02:

I love the profile of the sab that K-Fed posted

Any chance of this being laminate instead of monosteel? That would allow stainless clad carbon, which might split the difference between the SS and Carbon guys.

Having recently acquired a Mario Gyuto-hiki, I absolutely love the distal taper...my first with a very strong one, so I second that.

As a lefty, I'm also keen on a lefty-friendly grind (though I've not had any discernible problem of this type on anything I've tried so far).

Any thoughts for a name/logo to put on these? If I read the two threads right, it sounds like any form of "KKF" is out? Any graphic designers on the forum? I know someone who does that for a living, I can ask them to assist with this if it would be helpful.

Dusty
03-01-2013, 07:53 PM
I'll say again, this is a great idea. I'll put in a vote for western, carbon. Perhaps 250 on the edge would suit 240 and 270 people.

pleue
03-01-2013, 08:06 PM
I'd love to see a KS clone profile. A forgecraft profile is nice and fun to use but what's stopping me from just getting a forgecraft on ebay? Same with a sabatier? I'd love to see a western handle KS profile, strong distal taper with a bit of heft to the knife, not a laser by any means, but not a brute, built to be a cutter. Convex grind to a flat behind the edge. Good height to it, not takeda high, but not a gyuto/suji hybrid as I'd love to see a suji and a scimitar down the line if it's a good line and a short gyuto would then make the suji a bit redundant. It would also mean that you could get more life out of it with a bit of height, not a concern for most, but still would be nice. Carbon would be cool and would separate it from other knife lines. This has to be marketable to the knife community and what I would guess to be pros and serious hobby cooks. Doesn't seem to be the goal to produce another knife block set. I'm thinking like how the zwilling kramer has found a niche but, more like a refined working man's carbon knife than a showy piece to impress your sur la table friends. No mosaic pins, no gaudiness, just a knife that's beautiful in its simplicity. I could go either way on the forgemarks, but picking a carbon that develops a nice patina (W2? something else?) would be ideal and I think in the long run it would look better without the marks. It should not have any type of integrated bolster, such a pain when sharpening. I'm picturing a 3 rivet handle western handle, brass rivets, with a good width to it but no sharp edges to it. My old Masahiro VC rosewood handle comes to mind after I rounded it out a bit. Something that initially feels a bit big in the hand, but sturdy and form fitting because it's been rounded over. As lamson is a new england company, you could get a good looking handle using the Mass state tree (elm) or some other typical new england wood like maybe cherry. I think this would fit the motif I have in mind better than some crazy burl. Even hickory or ash would be good, but I'd prefer something with at least a honey type hue or darker, maybe with a reddish tint. I think the handle should be non-stabilized wood, something that will patina over time with the knife and have more of a warmth to it. I'd love to eventually see a 270 and even a 300 come out as I'm more partial to longer knives. It would be nice to have a leather sheath or have it come with a leather strop or something to make it unique, but if it's raises the price considerably, I think it would be fine without. A sub $200 knife would be ideal, and I think with the right material selection it could be doable. I'd love to be part of the testing. I work in two kitchens with heavy prep demands and would love to put it through the wringer.

PierreRodrigue
03-01-2013, 08:09 PM
Seeing as there sounds like a split on edge length, lets put it out there. Pick a number. 220-270 mm Whats the general preference?

pleue
03-01-2013, 08:09 PM
ps, smaller rivets not the larger ones they use on most of their knives.

mr drinky
03-01-2013, 08:15 PM
I like the sab idea (third profile down in photo). Length: 265. It seems as if many custom '240s' are around 260 anyhow.

k.

Edit: I have a 270 in AEB-L already. O1 or 52100 is fine with me. I'd still buy with CPM154.

El Pescador
03-01-2013, 08:18 PM
250ish on length is my vote.

knyfeknerd
03-01-2013, 08:19 PM
A forgecraft profile is nice and fun to use but what's stopping me from just getting a forgecraft on ebay? Same with a sabatier? .
Maybe a superior steel and HT? I love my Forgecraft, especially the profile. It doesn't hold an acceptable edge long enough though, I'm sure the same can be said for a lot of ODC knives.
Build it stronger, better, some TV show I'm ripping off now.......

mr drinky
03-01-2013, 08:19 PM
Three rivets with K-K-F in them. Just kidding -- sort of.

k.

Zwiefel
03-01-2013, 08:25 PM
Three rivets with K-K-F in them. Just kidding -- sort of.

k.

I like this idea, actually.

Length: 240-270 is fine, would prefer closer to 270 than 240 though.

mr drinky
03-01-2013, 08:38 PM
I like this idea, actually.

Length: 240-270 is fine, would prefer closer to 270 than 240 though.

I can't believe I said rivets...pins.

k.

Pensacola Tiger
03-01-2013, 08:40 PM
250ish on length is my vote.

250 on the edge.

Mike9
03-01-2013, 08:54 PM
250 on the edge is under 10" - I'd prefer 260 - 270 on the edge. Any of the steels mentioned are fine - I threw the lamson pic up because it's a Sab like profile and who knows - they might still have that profile on the books.

WildBoar
03-01-2013, 09:18 PM
Edge ~250 and price about $200, western handle, Sab profile, ~61 hardness, either O1 or 52100 -- whichever they are best at heat treating. Would probably get one for the house and one for a gift. If CPM154 would probably buy one for a gift, but probably not one for me.

Lefty
03-01-2013, 09:49 PM
250 is good for me. No KKF affiliation, though. I'm thinking I'll handle the sales and we can come up with a title for it as a group.

Lefty
03-01-2013, 09:50 PM
And I am feeling O1

Mrmnms
03-01-2013, 10:06 PM
I'm absolutely in.

Mrmnms
03-01-2013, 10:17 PM
I'm absolutely in. I'll go for multiple knives, keep one and a few for gifts. I'm ready to take a ride to Shelburne Falls. The idea of a joint effort of experienced users is promising. I would also like to thank Dave for being gracious . What next Lefty, discussion of type, size, steel etc?

brainsausage
03-01-2013, 10:17 PM
250 length. I think it's a tad more versatile. It would be nice to see a thicker spine closer to the choil. It's much comfier over long prep sessions. I have to wonder though- are we trying to come up with something that works well for us as knuts? Or try to apply some of the things we appreciate into a mass production style knife?

Chuckles
03-01-2013, 10:34 PM
260 for on the edge is best for me.

ThEoRy
03-01-2013, 11:19 PM
Where's my post?

ThEoRy
03-01-2013, 11:37 PM
Search my latest posts and you will see I clearly made a post.

Anyway from what I can salvage/remember...


A good compromising length is 255mm, it's smack in the middle of 240-270 and I'd be willing to settle on that. O1 or 52100 hardened to 62-63, modified Sab profile, 2.5-3mm at the spine, "s" shaped grind, real thin behind the edge, 52mm height, distal taper, tapered tang, integral bolster, no fingerguard/full bolster, fully rounded spine and choil, stabilized burl handle, 1 mosaic pin.

Mrmnms
03-01-2013, 11:51 PM
Sounds like 240 to 270 , flat ground off the edge with convex away for good food release and a Sab like profile in powdered stainless so far. I'm ok with a number of different steels. How bout the heat treatment? I'm seeing some great ideas here.

brainsausage
03-02-2013, 12:16 AM
Search my latest posts and you will see I clearly made a post.

Anyway from what I can salvage/remember...


A good compromising length is 255mm, it's smack in the middle of 240-270 and I'd be willing to settle on that. O1 or 52100 hardened to 62-63, modified Sab profile, 2.5-3mm at the spine, "s" shaped grind, real thin behind the edge, 52mm height, distal taper, tapered tang, integral bolster, no fingerguard/full bolster, fully rounded spine and choil, stabilized burl handle, 1 mosaic pin.

This.

Lefty
03-02-2013, 12:17 AM
Theory and I must be the same person. This is exactly what I had in mind (except 250 and O1). Regardless, it's good to see we're on the same page. If an S grind isn't doable, since not everyone is Bob Kramer, we'll still come up with a great alternative.

turbochef422
03-02-2013, 12:21 AM
I love 270s but if its a bit shorter I'm in. I also live the Sab profile all I do all day is search the web for vintage sabs. I also love carbon but would probably choose the steel based on what they do best. I'm cool with 50/50 too. I think it's a great idea and would be great for the forum. I like forgecraft but my favorite profiles are Sab and ks.

brainsausage
03-02-2013, 12:32 AM
It's a little ironic I think, that Pierre has basically already done this. How do we put Pierre in charge of Lamson?

mr drinky
03-02-2013, 12:35 AM
250-265 is fine for me. I'm easy.

k.

G-rat
03-02-2013, 12:35 AM
Search my latest posts and you will see I clearly made a post.

Anyway from what I can salvage/remember...


A good compromising length is 255mm, it's smack in the middle of 240-270 and I'd be willing to settle on that. O1 or 52100 hardened to 62-63, modified Sab profile, 2.5-3mm at the spine, "s" shaped grind, real thin behind the edge, 52mm height, distal taper, tapered tang, integral bolster, no fingerguard/full bolster, fully rounded spine and choil, stabilized burl handle, 1 mosaic pin.

THIS.
My vote is this. I want one. Bad.
Question...is this gonna be a value-ish buy (note the ish.

rdmalak
03-02-2013, 01:11 AM
Search my latest posts and you will see I clearly made a post.

Anyway from what I can salvage/remember...


A good compromising length is 255mm, it's smack in the middle of 240-270 and I'd be willing to settle on that. O1 or 52100 hardened to 62-63, modified Sab profile, 2.5-3mm at the spine, "s" shaped grind, real thin behind the edge, 52mm height, distal taper, tapered tang, integral bolster, no fingerguard/full bolster, fully rounded spine and choil, stabilized burl handle, 1 mosaic pin.

I know nothing compared to anyone else here but this does sound very nice. I would be in for one of these!!

franzb69
03-02-2013, 01:19 AM
i like the idea of san mai to make it more usable for everyone but i'm good straight mono steel carbon. maybe a stainless version one day? =D


Search my latest posts and you will see I clearly made a post.

Anyway from what I can salvage/remember...


A good compromising length is 255mm, it's smack in the middle of 240-270 and I'd be willing to settle on that. O1 or 52100 hardened to 62-63, modified Sab profile, 2.5-3mm at the spine, "s" shaped grind, real thin behind the edge, 52mm height, distal taper, tapered tang, integral bolster, no fingerguard/full bolster, fully rounded spine and choil, stabilized burl handle, 1 mosaic pin.

this sounds good but it's kinda hard to design the s shaped grind. it'll go through several prototypes that's for sure to get that right.

255mm would be awesome. right in the middle. 52100 / o1 would be awesome. i'd still wanna find out what swedish carbon steel misono uses on their gyutos, that would be awesome too.

chinacats
03-02-2013, 01:21 AM
A good compromising length is 255mm, it's smack in the middle of 240-270 and I'd be willing to settle on that. O1 or 52100 hardened to 62-63, modified Sab profile, 2.5-3mm at the spine, "s" shaped grind, real thin behind the edge, 52mm height, distal taper, tapered tang, integral bolster, no fingerguard/full bolster, fully rounded spine and choil, stabilized burl handle, 1 mosaic pin.


I agree that this is about perfect...since this is a good old North American knife, why not call it 10" in O1.

My exception is that I would vote for 3 pins with the middle being 1/4" (small dice) and the 2 outside as 1/8" (brunoise).

Other than that, I agree with everything Theory said, especially real thin behind the edge, which may be the hardest part based on some of their recent knives.

Lefty
03-02-2013, 02:13 AM
I don't think anyone has one of their most recent knives yet, do they? :D

I think profile is settled. Now, O1, 52100, CPM154 or AEB-L?

I'm voting for O1, because it's just great stuff, and it feels right. If that isn't scientific, I don't know what is. In all seriousness, O1 is very affordable and performs like a friggin' champ. It's kind of got a throwback feel to it too, and 52100 just doesn't patinate enough for my liking.

sachem allison
03-02-2013, 02:27 AM
I don't think anyone has one of their most recent knives yet, do they? :D

I think profile is settled. Now, O1, 52100, CPM154 or AEB-L?

I'm voting for O1, because it's just great stuff, and it feels right. If that isn't scientific, I don't know what is. In all seriousness, O1 is very affordable and performs like a friggin' champ. It's kind of got a throwback feel to it too, and 52100 just doesn't patinate enough for my liking.

not good with secrets, buddy. it's written all over your face.lol

Lefty
03-02-2013, 02:32 AM
My vote is only a vote in this case, Son. Haha. Seriously, I want the guys to get as close to exactly what they want as possible.

Twistington
03-02-2013, 02:32 AM
Rick's suggestion sounds very solid! :)

It would be great if an unhandeled version was avalible aswell!

JohnnyChance
03-02-2013, 02:38 AM
Rick's suggestion sounds very solid! :)

It would be great if an unhandeled version was avalible aswell!

After using your handle on a Yosihide, I would gladly take a Twistington-ed handled version.

don
03-02-2013, 02:49 AM
O1 sounds good to me. However you mentioned that Lamson has a lot of experience with CPM154. Given that heat treatment is so important, would it be better to work with a material they are particularly strong in? For example, whenever AEB-L is discussed, KKF members will point to Devin Thomas' heat treatment as the gold standard. And many others' attempts are simply not the same.

Lefty
03-02-2013, 02:51 AM
Pierre knows O1, and he's my partner on this, so.....

:D

don
03-02-2013, 02:52 AM
Pierre knows O1, and he's my partner on this, so.....

:D

In that case, a definite O1 for me.

chinacats
03-02-2013, 03:04 AM
I'm stoked, been wanting some O1 for a while now.

PierreRodrigue
03-02-2013, 03:05 AM
Ok, O1 is a great steel. Bar none. It will hit the 63 HRC, but is safer at 61-62. Thin behind the edge is for sure do-able. The integral bolster is an issue cost wise. It, I believe as far as production goes, is a drop forge process. Otherwise its welded on. The issue is Drop forging is gone the way of the dinosaur. Pretty sure Lamson hasn't done it in a number of years (decades). To do it as stock removal would be cost prohibitive. If the goal is to make a knife in reach of the majority cost wise, pinned/peened bolsters are the best route. I will work up a CAD drawing of the blade tomorrow if I can. The handle is still up in the air from what I read.

Keep the ideas flowing.

franzb69
03-02-2013, 03:14 AM
octagonal to get the feel of a wa handle and still getting a western handle scale type of look. at the same time lefty and righty friendly. =D

http://images.knifecenter.com/thumb/1500x1500/knifecenter/shun/images/KSVG0008nw.jpg

western handle with rivets and octagonal shape.... and you still get to put on the integral bolster......handles to be sandwiched onto the tang

http://www.gingatrading.com/media/catalog/category/zanmai_omote.JPG

sound good?

brainsausage
03-02-2013, 03:34 AM
I like where Marko has gone moreso in this respect handle wise. Not saying we need to ape all the other custom makers on here... But if it ain't gonna be an integral bolster, and everyone seems to be leaning more towards western(myself excluded, but I'll play along for now), its best to examine some of the better concepts out there. I'm more for a chunkier ferrule/bolster as I prefer to have that rest/reference point when doing long cutting sessions, which often involve changing ones grip depending on the product/cut. Which is also why I dig an octagonal handle over a typical western. I feel it's more versatile overall... Just had to throw that out there...

RobinW
03-02-2013, 03:54 AM
This sounds interesting, but since a "real" bolster seems out of the question, why not just do a Wa? Cheaper, simple and stylish. Use stabilized woods.
And i'm not just saying this because i am pretty much a wa-only kinda a guy.... Well i am (almost anyway)

chinacats
03-02-2013, 03:59 AM
This sounds interesting, but since a "real" bolster seems out of the question, why not just do a Wa? Cheaper, simple and stylish. Use stabilized woods.
And i'm not just saying this because i am pretty much a wa-only kinda a guy.... Well i am (almost anyway)

Wa could also save some expense and allow for more leeway in other areas?

ChefOnAWire
03-02-2013, 04:02 AM
I'm in, everything i'v read (that I understand...) sounds great. On the subject of handles as we consider style and material should we be thinking about weight balance? But i'm with Theory and Franzb the integrated bolster sounds good, I for one like the octagon handle most but a coke bottle western could be very cool.

Notaskinnychef
03-02-2013, 04:13 AM
well i want in on this list. i know they will be grabbed fast. I can't wait to see prospective plans

One other thing tho, I would like to request that we make it one knife per person (to start) so that as many people who want one get in, and then IF there are some left in the production run, sell multiples to those interested. TBH i assume there would be some dissapointed people if someone buys 2-3-4 for gifts and such and yet others don't get one for themselves. Granted I know this all revolves around money, but I hope we can spread the love as much as possible

apicius9
03-02-2013, 04:24 AM
I don't look for a moment and a frenzy has broken out ;) Not getting involved, there are enough maniacs here and I am sure whatever the final agreement will be, the knife will be worth getting. :) I am still a bit surprised and find it a bit awkward, though, that this seems to fixate on the company that also produces knives for 'others' that get rather mixed reviews, although I understand the American-made approach. Well, continue everybody, give me some time to save up the money, and then tell me where to send it to get one of these. Oh, and of course a wa handle version would be nice :) Or one without handles. What I really would not want to see is pakka wood or some of these things...

Stefan

franzb69
03-02-2013, 04:42 AM
a synthetic handle like g10 or micarta in wa octagonal could look good....

the coke bottle would be really comfortable too, but not as flexible as to the ways one could grip the knife (i wouldn't know coz i've never hand one).....

i too will start saving up my cash for this. this will for sure get me pretty broke, no matter what the cost. lol.

a simpler designed handle will keep the price down


burnt chestnut with integral bolster? or any other lighter colored wood that gets nice and burnt-y? =D

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/v/vspfiles/photos/548-2.jpg

RobinW
03-02-2013, 05:41 AM
I don't look for a moment and a frenzy has broken out ;) Not getting involved, there are enough maniacs here and I am sure whatever the final agreement will be, the knife will be worth getting. :) I am still a bit surprised and find it a bit awkward, though, that this seems to fixate on the company that also produces knives for 'others' that get rather mixed reviews, although I understand the American-made approach. Well, continue everybody, give me some time to save up the money, and then tell me where to send it to get one of these. Oh, and of course a wa handle version would be nice :) Or one without handles. What I really would not want to see is pakka wood or some of these things...


Stefan

I too am a bit concerned about this (the "other" knives seems to lack cutting ability), but i assume this will be taken care of by careful specification and approval of a golden first sample?
There would be no point in doing this if it comes out a dog. Especially if the price tag starts reaching for the $200 mark.

Big fan of wood rather than all synthetic handle by the way. Ferrule could be G10 or similar though. Altthough a stabilized wood makes a nice ferrule to.

Crothcipt
03-02-2013, 05:51 AM
Honestly I am liking what Theory suggested. not to sure about having Lamson making it. But with supervision I hope they do better than what I have seen from their work.

franzb69
03-02-2013, 06:13 AM
if someone helps me out so i can personally supervise the whole thing i'd be more than willing to help! lol.

JohnnyChance
03-02-2013, 06:14 AM
There are a lot of great ideas here, but as this is going to be a production knife, I would try to concentrate on things achievable in a production knife at a decent price point. It might not end up the exact knife with all the bells and whistles you wanted, but hey, that is what customs are for. We have plenty of craftsman here for that as well. Think of it as maximizing your value. Sure, you can spring for integral bolsters, but that might increase the price by 50% or end up compromising the finish or material quality. Combination or concave grinds are labor intensive in both the grinding and finishing processes. Coke bottle westerns are great, I love them, but they don't really lend themselves to mass production. Both require a skilled craftsman's work, ie, no robots. Even wood: stabilizing adds cost and there some great oily natural woods out there. Cocobolo, wenge, rosewood, etc. The supplier can also buy them in large blocks/boards, as opposed to many small pre stabilized pieces.

If you are going with a Sab/Forgecraft inspired profile, then I would use that as a basis for your theme: An updated Sab/Forge with improved steel, readily available, with no restoration needed. Any of the steels mentioned in this thread qualify. Carbon obviously fits the theme a little better than stainless. Plus it sounds like Lefty really likes O1. 10"/255mm edge. Forgecraft style handle with a natural wood, which makes for simple wa conversions. Finish would most likely be simple machine finish, not much in the way of options there. You maniacs can attack them with whatever mesh or stones or paper you have laying around. Where you put your money is the grind and distal taper. Unlike some of the examples in the first paragraph, I think a strong distal taper is something that can be achievable with this project, but it will add cost. When grinding thin, it is cheaper to start with thin stock, that simple. Thin stock does not lead to dramatic distal tapers. Starting with thick stock and distal taper kinda sorta dictates your grind, which would lend itself well to a slight convex on the upper half of the face, with most of the stock removal and convexing on the lower half of the blade face, to get thin behind the edge like everyone likes. Should be a sturdy cutter, suitable for any linecook or homecook. I think you will end up with an affordable performer that leaves the door open for plenty of tweaking and customization, but still had a fairly unique identity.

Salty dog
03-02-2013, 07:44 AM
This thread is very deja vu-ish.

marc4pt0
03-02-2013, 08:00 AM
I agree with this with the exception of the handle. Yes, I believe the handle should stay simple for easy conversions, but not plain (please forgive) like the forgecraft. I'm sure there will be many who simply just want to keep the knife the way it is, or who can't/won't be able to customize the handle. The materials you mentioned all sound fantastic, I just think you will want to put some curve or personality in the shaping of the handle as well.

Other than that, I really like the idea of keeping this knife somewhat "standardized", thus allowing all of us who wish to customize to do so. I can already see a thread started solely for the purpose of us showing off our upgrades and different twists, which I think will be great!

jayhay
03-02-2013, 08:45 AM
I'm in as a buyer in this project :) Awesome sauce.

Duckfat
03-02-2013, 09:36 AM
I am still a bit surprised and find it a bit awkward, though, that this seems to fixate on the company that also produces knives for 'others' that get rather mixed reviews, although I understand the American-made approach.

I'd add more than a +1 to that if I had more than one vote. I'd much rather see this project go to one of the knife makers who support this site than building yet another knife with a company that's had very similar, and not overly successful projects in the past. Turn this into a Pierre "group buy" or semi-custom and I'd be all over it like a Duck on a June bug.

tgraypots
03-02-2013, 09:47 AM
Scott is right, and it's surprising how much the design concept of an ideal forum knife has changed. As to Lamson and Goodnow, I have a 52100 ks that I'm more than happy with. The only way to make this knife affordable to many of us is to use a factory to make them, one that utilizes robots, and I'd much rather see folks in Massachusetts making it than folks in China. JohnnyChance pretty much nailed anything else I have to say.

franzb69
03-02-2013, 09:57 AM
if getting this done into a semi custom / custom knife, then that would pretty much skyrocket the price on this, so i'm all for keeping it cheap and maybe eventually do something a higher end model in the future?

+1 to johnnychance alright. =D

Igasho
03-02-2013, 10:14 AM
id be interested dependant on the final price

Lefty
03-02-2013, 10:53 AM
Johnny and Tom are hitting the nail on the head. We can make a fantastic knife that is designed (or consulted) by us. Pierre and I have taken this and are running with it..neither he nor I would attach of names to something we didn't believe in. It will be heavily tested and thoroughly inspected, I promise. Also, by many well-respected members here.

Mike9
03-02-2013, 01:05 PM
I have a late model Lamson slicer and the grind is pretty nice. Not crude like the Forgecrafts I have, but not a custom mirror finish either. It also has a decent taper as I recall that I can measure later if anyone is interested. As for handle - a Western with a wood bolster/ferrule and contrasting scales might be doable. They'd need to be laid out to be pinned and glued, but hey - that's what CNC is for.

labor of love
03-02-2013, 02:30 PM
I've used the AEB-L that has come out of Lamson and it left a lot to be desired.

if memory serves mark used a company called petes heat treat for his american made knives. lefty, who would be doing the heat treat on this knife?

Lefty
03-02-2013, 05:37 PM
HT is going to be something we have to figure out. However, we're likely doing salt pots, based on Pierre's specs. They will follow our exact instructions. If I'm wrong on the salt pots thing, Pierre, please correct me.

Justin0505
03-02-2013, 05:42 PM
Damn, I made one of the first posts in this thread, but something happened and it got swallowed by the cyber-abyss.
It all worked out though and I think that people have already brought up most of my suggestions / opinions.

Aside from just talking specs, I think it's important to have a clear design philosophy for the knife:

-It should be a homage to the hay-day of Lamson / 1900's American knife making, but updated / informed by what we have learned since then from Japanese, European (French), and North American customs.

-It should be about utility, craftsmanship, and quality. I love fancy burl and mosaic pins too, but IMO they have no place on this knife. Anything that adds bling, but does not add function, performance, or value per$ should not be on this knife. All North American materials and labor.

-It should be carbon mono-steel. Not stainless, not san-mai. I like fancy cladding. I like laminate construction, but that's not what this knife is about. I think 01 sound great.

-It should be robust / rigid at the spine for at least 3/4 of the blade. Strong spine, but THIN behind the edge. I like Lefty's "almost" grind profile but it should transition from the heel to tip (in conjunction w/ the distal taper) to a flat-grind near the tip.

- Profile should be reasonably flat, flat "sweet spot" near the tip, but its important to understand that even gyutos that LOOK flat near the heal are not actually truly flat in any one spot for more than an inch or so. If any one has even used a knife that actually has big, dead flat section of edge, it feels just that: DEAD. It creates a horrible "clunk" when a big section of edge all hits board at the same time.

-It should have a full tang(distal taper) with western scales. Handle should look clean and with obvious roots in tradition, but no bolster and nice and thin before the blade. Great handles are great because of perfectly placed nuances. It should be comfortable for a full range of hand sizes. I may be in the minority here, but I think that handle should me maintenance free: resin-stabilize wood, g10, or micarta... Personally I like the simple, classy look of polished black linen micarta and simple silver pins

-This knife should be the answer to the "What knife should I buy?" question of "I'm looking for 1 good knife where I can learn about carbon steel, proper (non- rockn' chop) technique, and which I will not out grow. It must be durable enough for whatever work I throw at it, and comfortable enough for many hours of continuous use."


I am in for at least 2 of these, maybe 3.


If we need 50-80 people for this, and if Lamson really would like as much feed-back as possible, it would be nice if they could supply 2-3 prototypes for pass-around. I'd also like to see an initial "1st draft" pass around and then a 2nd "revised" / pre-production pass around.

Lefty
03-02-2013, 05:48 PM
Justin, you get it 100%. Honestly, you nailed it. You're one of our testers, for sure.

PierreRodrigue
03-02-2013, 06:01 PM
Gentlemen/ladies. Fr your consideration. Here is an example of a choil shot Tom and I are looking for... Thoughts?

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/bladebuilder/IMG_0227_zps885baef9.jpg

apicius9
03-02-2013, 06:04 PM
Justin's summary sounds great to me also. Still not a fan of the 'artificial' handle material and would prefer some good old American wood, but that may also be a cost issue if you add stabilizing and not everyone may like the same woods. If there really will be a run of those made, it should not be too difficult to ask for a few extra blades without handles so that the tinkerers among us have something to play with. But overall priority should be on function and value.

Stefan

Zwiefel
03-02-2013, 06:19 PM
I think that handle should me maintenance free: resin-stabilize wood, g10, or micarta... Personally I like the simple, classy look of polished black linen micarta and simple silver pins

-This knife should be the answer to the "What knife should I buy?" question of "I'm looking for 1 good knife where I can learn about carbon steel, proper (non- rockn' chop) technique, and which I will not out grow. It must be durable enough for whatever work I throw at it, and comfortable enough for many hours of continuous use."

I love all of this. Love G10 and Micarta. A lighter color would be good too, I've see white and butterscotch micarta that look very classy, a bit less traditional though.

vicv
03-02-2013, 07:22 PM
Justin you did nail it. My thoughts exactly. and pierre that looks good

labor of love
03-02-2013, 07:25 PM
i dont think the knife has to be carbon. infact, theres alot of cool stainless steel american makers work with that i simply cant afford. i was hoping to get a chance to try one of the higher end stainless steels with this gyuto.

vicv
03-02-2013, 07:33 PM
More than likely though if it was one of those awesome stainlesses then you couldn't afford this one either:biggrin:

labor of love
03-02-2013, 07:56 PM
i think you missed my point entirely

vicv
03-02-2013, 08:05 PM
I thought you meant you'd like to try a super stainless at a cheaper price. All I was saying was there's a reason why the higher end steel knives generally cost more. Harder to heat treat, grind, and finish. Plus the material itself is more expensive. If I'm wrong what was the point of your post? And I was trying to be cheeky

GLE1952
03-02-2013, 08:27 PM
i dont think the knife has to be carbon. infact, theres alot of cool stainless steel american makers work with that i simply cant afford. i was hoping to get a chance to try one of the higher end stainless steels with this gyuto.
+1
I get it entirely, Stainless seems to be pushing the carbon envelope.

labor of love
03-02-2013, 08:31 PM
I thought you meant you'd like to try a super stainless at a cheaper price. All I was saying was there's a reason why the higher end steel knives generally cost more. Harder to heat treat, grind, and finish. Plus the material itself is more expensive. If I'm wrong what was the point of your post? And I was trying to be cheeky

no offense taken. i was willing to spend $200-300. when i think custom gyuto i think the market starts around $600.

franzb69
03-02-2013, 09:01 PM
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSsw6tY8Px42Luo2Zzu2uTN36vL8e2A2 3aB47hZDgPCRN9P47ptVQ

was thinking the same on the handle, a distal taper on the handle to help with the balance

=D

Dusty
03-02-2013, 09:02 PM
I'm totally on board with Lefty's vision of this knife especially as expressed by Justin. To go back a few pages, I don't think that an integral bolster is important - the UX10 has one of the nicer production handles out there in my opinion, and the bolster is conspicuously not-integral there.

I'm not sure how much this would add to the cost, but I've always loved the look of the Western Shig handles with the large cutout before the heel, about where your ring finger would end up in a hammer grip. A feature like that can add a lot of unique character to a knife without having to spend money on exotic materials - I don't know how much it wold cost in labor to shape scales like that though...

I think carbon steel is also important. O1 sounds just fine to me.

vicv
03-02-2013, 09:05 PM
Ah gotcha. I wouldn't buy from him but there the ultimatum I believe in m390 for your price range. That's about as super stainless as it exists in a ks profile. I think I understand where Tom is going with this. A vintageesh style with more a Japanese style heat treat

brainsausage
03-02-2013, 09:52 PM
I think the main point here(that some seem to be missing), is designing a mass produced knife. One that will stand out from the rest because it has proper geometry, heat treat, steel, f/f, and a price that both pros and home cooks can appreciate. Upping the bar that some other big names have brought low due to lack of care/quality.

vicv
03-02-2013, 09:56 PM
I think the main point here(that some seem to be missing), is designing a mass produced knife. One that will stand out from the rest because it has proper geometry, heat treat, steel, f/f, and a price that both pros and home cooks can appreciate. Upping the bar that some other big names have brought low due to lack of care/quality.

This

labor of love
03-02-2013, 10:20 PM
Ah gotcha. I wouldn't buy from him but there the ultimatum I believe in m390 for your price range. That's about as super stainless as it exists in a ks profile. I think I understand where Tom is going with this. A vintageesh style with more a Japanese style heat treat

are you talking to me? lol! i would never buy an ultamatum. there are excellent factory priduction aeb-l knives that can be had for 200-300. even pierre has a killer mid tech coming out soon in stainless for $325. my only point was a great stainless with nice heat treat can be had for $200-300. "custom heat treat " or not. BTW even if we decide on carbon im still in, i just wanted to keep the stainless option open.

Lefty
03-02-2013, 10:37 PM
Guys, it's looking like we're going to do O1, but if possible, maybe we can do stainless down the road, or as a small batch. It really depends on how Lamson can swing it. I hope this becomes a huge success and we can all come up with a great suji, petty, parer, etc. But, one thing I've learned is focusing on one thing at a time always yields the best results.

franzb69
03-02-2013, 10:49 PM
yeah one thing at a time would be best. research, study, practical use, experimentation, QC is most important! =D

vicv
03-03-2013, 01:08 AM
are you talking to me? lol! i would never buy an ultamatum. there are excellent factory priduction aeb-l knives that can be had for 200-300. even pierre has a killer mid tech coming out soon in stainless for $325. my only point was a great stainless with nice heat treat can be had for $200-300. "custom heat treat " or not. BTW even if we decide on carbon im still in, i just wanted to keep the stainless option open.

Of course I'd never say that about you! My only point was that such knives in that price range do exist. It would be cool to have these with multiple flavors of steel but me personally would prefer at least the first run made in a good carbon. But these will probably be behind my current price range so my opinion shouldd be taken with a grain of salt. Still an awesome idea Tom!

Paradox
03-03-2013, 04:57 AM
I think a matched pair would be the shiznit. Two identical knives made to the design goal. One in 01 and one in AEB-L, or S35VN, or CPM154 or ... any of the "killer" stainless that is now available. I bet they could pull that off with ease.

Mrmnms
03-03-2013, 11:42 PM
Lot of good judgement and common sense coming from these posts. The element of practicality , using an old , perhaps historic company like Lamson, and collaborating with a group of people willing to put their egos aside for the greater good makes for a rare experience. I will help any way I can.

ajhuff
03-04-2013, 12:11 AM
I must have missed something, but for the past year and a half or so I have never, ever seen a positive post about Lamson. Chef Niloc even used to have "Lamson sucks" as his signature. So what's changed?

-AJ

Jmadams13
03-04-2013, 12:22 AM
Wow, I work for two days, and this thread jumps 10 pages. I've got some reading to do before I express some ofth ideas I've had. Tomorrow maybe

brainsausage
03-04-2013, 05:09 AM
I must have missed something, but for the past year and a half or so I have never, ever seen a positive post about Lamson. Chef Niloc even used to have "Lamson sucks" as his signature. So what's changed?

-AJ

I'm not trying to sound insulting when I say this- but I truly think you're missing the point...

Pensacola Tiger
03-04-2013, 05:13 AM
I must have missed something, but for the past year and a half or so I have never, ever seen a positive post about Lamson. Chef Niloc even used to have "Lamson sucks" as his signature. So what's changed?

-AJ

One of the goals of the project is to get Lamson back on track, so to speak, by having them make a great knife to our standards.

Rick

toddnmd
03-04-2013, 10:35 AM
I just saw this thread late last night, and have read through most of it. I'm interested! (I didn't read 100% of the posts, but read most of them.)

Any idea of the timeline of this projected, particularly with expected delivery? This is all new to me, so I have no real idea, and want to know how fast I need to start saving!

From my standpoint, once the price goes over $200, I start getting nervous. I'm willing to go higher, but I'll think about it more. I know that's not that much money for a bunch of you, but not that long ago, spending over $200 on a knife would have been unthinkable for me.

I'd also strongly suggest a no-handle and/or a potential custom handle option if at all possible. Lefty, I know your vision is for them to start the same. However, knowing that many people will customize the handle, it would be really nice to acknowledge that reality and make that a viable option. IMHO, it just seems wasteful, and unnecessarily expensive, to put on a perfectly good handle that is going to be quickly removed by a significant number of buyers. If that required a later, smaller batch, I would wait. Or maybe even have the option for folks to choose their own stabilized blocks, send them in, and have them used for the handles. I'm sure at least a good number would go with the standard handle, since a lot of thought is going into that and all aspects of this knife.

What about calling it the Forum Kitchen Knife? (FKK--better say that as letters rather than a single syllable acronym! ;-) "Forum" is a general word, and anyone talking about this knife is going to quickly mention KKF when explaining how this knife was developed, and that name's a sort of a play on that?

So, there's my input. I think this is a great idea and look forward to hearing more about it as the project moves forward! I also look forward to reaping the collective wisdom of so many people on here of designing a kind of consensus knife that puts a lot of great features together into one knife!

ajhuff
03-04-2013, 03:20 PM
One of the goals of the project is to get Lamson back on track, so to speak, by having them make a great knife to our standards.

Rick

Ok. I didn't realize that was the purpose.

-AJ

ajhuff
03-04-2013, 03:22 PM
I'm not trying to sound insulting when I say this- but I truly think you're missing the point...

I think it's a legitimate question so yes i find your response insulting.

-AJ

brainsausage
03-04-2013, 04:05 PM
I think it's a legitimate question so yes i find your response insulting.

-AJ

Apologies.

Mrmnms
03-04-2013, 04:24 PM
Not too many forum members would pick a Lamson as their go to knife, nor would they likely choose any number knives from big producers that mere mortals are delighted with. I suspect that a lot of members have no experience with a Lamson knife. That doesn't mean they just make lousy knives, just not up to our standards ...yet. They are willing to listen and we have a good degree of control. I like the idea of giving a motivated North American company a shot at this. I'm in for at least 2 or 3. Our common goals are mostly the same. I thank Lefty, Pierre, Franz, Mike, Tom, Rich and everybody else for their input.
When this is done and we are all delighted with our knives, perhaps Lefty could could convince Pierre of taking it up a few notches and offer a group buy :D

Lefty
03-04-2013, 04:30 PM
Here's what we have so far. We're thinking O1 (and maybe a stainless like AEB-L if we can), hardened to Pierre's specs, to 61-62hrc. The handle design is coming, so you never know. We might be able to do a mix of western and wa.

Here's the initial drawing. This is a starting point, and way to get the ideas flowing. You can see it's a Sab, with a cool topline, dropped tip and tightened choil (compared to Pierre's). Let me know what you think.

Thanks, guys!

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc399/Lefty-T/6BD606B2-C130-432F-9673-AA477806B318-10559-00000C8E493DCB2E.jpg

Paradox
03-04-2013, 04:33 PM
Looks great.

Chuckles
03-04-2013, 04:33 PM
I like the looks of that very much. :doublethumbsup:

Dusty
03-04-2013, 05:26 PM
Nailed it.

labor of love
03-04-2013, 06:01 PM
looks good to me.

vicv
03-04-2013, 06:29 PM
perfect

Notaskinnychef
03-04-2013, 08:19 PM
Looks good to me too, great to see the first sketches/designs.

Mrmnms
03-04-2013, 08:25 PM
Profile is just fine. I'm sure you have an idea of thickness measurements along the blade. How then do we go at the tip?

UCChemE05
03-04-2013, 08:41 PM
How tall is it at the heel? Little extra height here would be nice :knife:

K-Fed
03-04-2013, 08:48 PM
I like the looks of that very much. :doublethumbsup:

+1

PierreRodrigue
03-04-2013, 09:35 PM
Once we figure that we are ADC ( awful damn close) I will crank out a rendering with dimensions.

Here are the specs on my rendition...

50mm high at the heel

250mm cutting edge

2.5mm spine at the bolster

1.5mm mid spine

.8mm 1 inch from the tip, give or take of course...

labor of love
03-04-2013, 09:44 PM
Once we figure that we are ADC ( awful damn close) I will crank out a rendering with dimensions.

Here are the specs on my rendition...

50mm high at the heel

250mm cutting edge

2.5mm spine at the bolster

1.5mm mid spine

.8mm 1 inch from the tip, give or take of course...
awesome.

Salty dog
03-04-2013, 09:55 PM
Here's what we have so far. We're thinking O1 (and maybe a stainless like AEB-L if we can), hardened to Pierre's specs, to 61-62hrc. The handle design is coming, so you never know. We might be able to do a mix of western and wa.

Here's the initial drawing. This is a starting point, and way to get the ideas flowing. You can see it's a Sab, with a cool topline, dropped tip and tightened choil (compared to Pierre's). Let me know what you think.

Thanks, guys!

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc399/Lefty-T/6BD606B2-C130-432F-9673-AA477806B318-10559-00000C8E493DCB2E.jpg

Looks somewhat familiar.

UCChemE05
03-04-2013, 10:10 PM
I always loved the profile of the sab on the bottom. Nice flat spot without too much belly in the tip.
http://i.imgur.com/35sV6.jpg


Here's what we have so far. We're thinking O1 (and maybe a stainless like AEB-L if we can), hardened to Pierre's specs, to 61-62hrc. The handle design is coming, so you never know. We might be able to do a mix of western and wa.

Here's the initial drawing. This is a starting point, and way to get the ideas flowing. You can see it's a Sab, with a cool topline, dropped tip and tightened choil (compared to Pierre's). Let me know what you think.

Thanks, guys!

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc399/Lefty-T/6BD606B2-C130-432F-9673-AA477806B318-10559-00000C8E493DCB2E.jpg

To me, it's getting there, but still not "#3 enough". I'd like to see a bit longer flat section near the tip...

Mrmnms
03-04-2013, 10:23 PM
Sounds great. Not to thick ,not too thin. Good height and taper. You're not wasting any time Pierre.

ThEoRy
03-04-2013, 11:00 PM
To me, it's getting there, but still not "#3 enough". I'd like to see a bit longer flat section near the tip...

I like this better than the #3 picture. If a blade is flat it slams into the board like dead weight. A super subtle curve that's basically invisible upon glance is what I feel to be ideal.

Lefty
03-04-2013, 11:07 PM
:D Pierre is awesome, and I'm a ******** to deal with. It seems to work. Haha

PierreRodrigue
03-04-2013, 11:15 PM
Looks somewhat familiar.

13770
13771

I heary ya Salty, but no... Not quite the same.

PierreRodrigue
03-04-2013, 11:16 PM
EDIT!

DISREGARD I'm a dummy!!

Lefty
03-04-2013, 11:21 PM
I think the last post was an error...wrong thread!

labor of love
03-04-2013, 11:22 PM
i think the #3 knife profile might not be a factory profile at all, but like a soo many sabs out there its profile was altered some due to many years of sharpening. just a hunch.

franzb69
03-05-2013, 12:05 AM
i think the #3 knife profile might not be a factory profile at all, but like a soo many sabs out there its profile was altered some due to many years of sharpening. just a hunch.

mentioned that earlier here. i was thinking it started out more like sab #1 then eventually ended up looking like sab #3

PierreRodrigue
03-05-2013, 12:15 AM
I would tend to agree. It might be the lighting, but #3 seems to have a very slight frown? Might be my old eyes too. Spines on 1 and 3 look the same, as does heel height. Sharpening would seem to be the difference in both examples. Year of production, also might have slight variations.

Edit. Must be my eyes. I'm going on 2 hours sleep... Turned my laptop 90 degrees, and I cant see a frown anymore...

marc4pt0
03-05-2013, 08:01 AM
both cads look great actually. but the top one gets my vote, which if I'm not mistaken, it's the direction this project is going with....

toddnmd
03-05-2013, 01:19 PM
I'm still really excited about this project! I guess it fits well with a lot of what I had been wanting for my next knife. I'm psyched about putting all this collective wisdom and experience together.

Any sense of a rough estimate of how long the various steps will take? Or when delivery might eventually happen? I know there needs to be consensus on a design, make some prototypes, test them, refine design, get orders, produce, distribute. Someone mentioned a potential second round of testing before production. This process is new to me, so I have no clue about even a vague guess on how long it might take to complete.

Lefty
03-05-2013, 01:50 PM
Todd, I'm going to say, we're months out. As in, could be 6-10 or more months away. It's hard to say for sure. However, the steps we're taking are what will end up with a knife that the majority finds both appealing and done properly. We want this to be the new standard for a "factory made" knife. I'm getting the vibe that you get this, but just like the rest of us, would live for it to be a month away. We'll try to both not waste any time, but also put in every measure we can to make sure it's an amazing knife. Once the prototypes are done, and guys have tested it, we'll have a better idea of how close we are. A design is only as good as its execution, and until it's been made, it's really next to impossible to give an accurate timeframe. However, hopefully it won't be too long....

I bugged Pierre today, while he was working (I'm assuming), and m first idea for a handle is something like this (keep in mind, this is AGAIN a starting point to get feedback and ideas.

Western/octagonal hybrid, with a thib metal bolster, wenge wood, and a copper and stainless centre mosaic pin to dress it up. It would look similar to this, but of course even better because we're doing it. :D

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc399/Lefty-T/D94F8999-8970-4256-8C37-BBDA95FD0ACA-11366-00000DB9EF5DA06E.jpg

Let's hear those opinions!

franzb69
03-05-2013, 01:54 PM
i likey likey likey. just like how i pictured it in my mind it would be! =D

Paradox
03-05-2013, 01:57 PM
Personally, I don't care at all for that type of handle. It would be a deal breaker for me. I'm sorry.

Lefty
03-05-2013, 02:04 PM
What would you like to see? This is why we are throwing ideas around. :)

Paradox
03-05-2013, 02:22 PM
For some reason I thought it had been hashed out this would be a bolster-less knife already?

A small bolster like that (any bolster) will make this a harder knife to customize. It will also make that style of handle too small at the grip point (for me at least). The handle shown looks to me to be way too small for a 240ish + chef knife. For the octagonal handle to be the proper proportion at the front end the bolster will have to be even bigger, no?

I'd be for a modest non-bolster western style handle. Wenge wood would be a super choice. A modest western style handle will keep the cost down. It will also make a knife that stands on it's own and is also a great starting point for people that want to mod it.

If it's going to be a WA style octagonal handle that would be okay too but leave the bolster off the blade.

Those are my handle thoughts. :2cents:

ETA: I'd even be okay with a synthetic handle material, G10 or linen micarta, along those lines. I know that more than one person has already said no to that though which is okay too.

Miles
03-05-2013, 02:33 PM
I'm not wild about that style of handle either, but it's not a dealbreaker. I like the idea of a wa handle better or a modest western style handle as Paradox mentions. For a hybrid east-west integrated bolster wa handle similar to what Shun uses, I think the bolster and handle need to be fairly substantial for it to be comfortable in the hand.

Lefty
03-05-2013, 02:38 PM
Thanks for the comments. We'll keep thinking.

pleue
03-05-2013, 02:54 PM
The cad profile looks a lot like a DT ITK at first glance, but I've never used one so it's hard to say. The second looks a lot more like a sab/ks hybrid. Both would be great knives I'd be into buying, but I would personally like a few more milimeters of height on either, say 53 or so.

I love that the choice right now is O1, I think carbon is really the way to go when you see Lamson's history in knives and the fact that there aren't a ton of high-end carbon knives out there from large scale companies and people are slowly becoming interested again in proper knife care. The only carbon chef knife that pops up on a google shopping search is the henckels kramer. I really can't stress enough that I think the first run at the very least should be carbon.

With the handle mock-up, I can't help but see the new shun blue steel lineup. Take a look at the the pics of those knives and the price points (stainless clad with a blue steel core, 10" kiritsuke for $250 with Shun's brand appeal to the masses and international distribution) and it makes little sense to me to design something that seems to follow in its footsteps. I think the western/wa hybrid is just the wrong approach for this knife and for lamson. It's like when Ford in the late 90's tried to make the taurus look 'japanese' vs. say the chrysler 300. Hope that analogy makes sense. I think everything about this knife should say american workhorse revival, the type of craftsmanship that was once prevalent here.

For handle ideas, I love Dave Martells handle shapes, both the full and hidden tangs. They looks sturdy, fit and finish looks perfectly rounded over, just looks like they would fit your hand. I'll re-iterate that a simple New England wood, like the Mass state tree Elm or maybe Cherry or something, would be my choice for handle material as the cost would be low and the material fit with the motif. And please no mosaic pins, my preference is brass as it will age with to 01 and develop a complimentary patina.

Lefty
03-05-2013, 03:06 PM
Great points, pleue. I still love a great western handle, but thought this might be a nice option. I think maybe we might go away from it.... Thanks!

labor of love
03-05-2013, 03:27 PM
lefty, i like your handle suggestion. is there a vintage handle/or bolster we could perhaps find inspiration from? anybody?

labor of love
03-05-2013, 03:46 PM
if theres serious potential for a second run in stainless, would most people here be interested in western handle/carbon first....then maybe wa handle/stainless down the road? just throwing that out there. something for almost everybody.

PierreRodrigue
03-05-2013, 03:54 PM
I have an idea or two, I'll add a sketch later when I get home.

PierreRodrigue
03-05-2013, 04:07 PM
Here are a couple vintage handles from 1937. I will do a couple "updated" sketches later...

13789
13791

don
03-05-2013, 04:23 PM
I like Lefty's handle suggestion too, but am open to other designs. Sabatier profile doesn't scream American revival to me, so I'm good with a wa/western handle. At this point, I would prefer to have a knife that we would recommend as the knife to buy, as opposed to American revival.

While it appears that most of us agree on profile and steel, there are two camps on handles: western vs wa.

Lefty
03-05-2013, 04:32 PM
Yeah, the profile came too easily, didn't it?

I'd like an update on the old style, but I honestly want a bolster Of some sort. When there isn't one, I'm always left wanting.

ajhuff
03-05-2013, 05:23 PM
I honestly want a bolster Of some sort. When there isn't one, I'm always left wanting.

I love bolsters! I think it adds to the sexiness of the knife. So far all of my custom orders (well 2 so far ) required bolsters.

-AJ

ajhuff
03-05-2013, 05:32 PM
Just a suggestion, I think from an production point of view the knife blank is easy. I think there is more difficulty in the handle though. Before you get too far down the road you might want to check to see what your manufacturer's capabilities are for handles. You don't want to come up with some thing that requires them to add tooling, equipment or labor.

-AJ

PierreRodrigue
03-05-2013, 06:01 PM
Handle components can be CNC'ed for a reasonable price. Bolsters, and handle scales. But a consensus needs to be reached as far as handle shape.

Justin0505
03-05-2013, 10:03 PM
Wow, another couple days and another 10 pages! :nicethread:

I think Pier's 1st cad drawing looks right on! - It reminds me of a lot of very popular profiles without looking exactly like any of them. Theory also brought up the same point that I made earlier that a profile shoot be "almost flat" with a veeerrrry slight curve to avoid the "clunk" that you get from a profiles that's actually "dead" flat.

As for the handle: I also really love bolsters, but personally, I don't think that it's appropriate for this project. Here's why:
- Price: there's no getting around the price increase caused by boslters. The idea behind this knife is that it should be an excellent "first good knife" it should be a good alternative to Tojiro, Fuji FKM, TKC, etc. If price gets too far above $200, it puts it in competition with a whole other class of knives and really limits the market. Also, the $ to performance ration has to be as high as possible and, as "cool" as they are, bolsters don't really give you a significant performance improvement.

- KISS (KeepItSimpleStupid): We already know Lamnson has yet to produce a knife that is up to our standards OTB, adding the complexity of a bolster is just opening the door to a whole new list of potential problems.

- Limits to re-handle / customization: I think that it's a no-brainer to offer this knife (at a reduced price) sans-handle and sans-final-sharpening for all the knuts who will undoubtedly want to "pimp" it. Having a metal bolster really limits / complicates custom handle options.


Now, as for handle design: I feel very strongly that this should be a western handle and that the design should be EVOLUTIONARY not REVOLUTIONARY. With the exception of Michael Rader's work, the best western handles that I've ever used don't look all that different / showy over a tradition design, but there are some really subtle nuances that make all the difference / you just say "ahhhhhhh" when you hold them.

Two of the best examples are the Martell Gyuto and Gesshin Ginga's "coke bottle" designs (I'd be willing to lend either/ both to Lamson so that they can feel what pictures don't really show).

I don't have a good top-down pick of the Martell handle, can someone post one? Otherwise I'll take some the next day I have some free time / better light.
http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/product-p/dm240gyulw.htm
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mYGhxRmoF4Q/UQc1twZbymI/AAAAAAAALxM/lePuxR4mBxQ/s1397/KKF+MSP+MEETUP-26.JPG


You have to picture it w/o bolster, but there's no way you can say Micarta can't be sexy:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--u7akM0bT_c/UQuE1RDMtuI/AAAAAAAAL3Y/HYurODMEkSQ/s1024/IMG_4778+%281%29.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fLiM42GVC-8/UQuE8OIXTfI/AAAAAAAAL3g/dAtfz91-qtE/s1397/KKF+MSP+MEETUP-1.JPG

pleue
03-05-2013, 10:44 PM
Yes! Been waiting for someone to post a pic of a martell handle in the thread. Something based off that with a low cost wood (no two type wood to mimic a bolster to further reduce cost) imho would be perfect.

labor of love
03-05-2013, 10:45 PM
sheesh, either handle design in the first photo easily surpasses my expectations, ofcourse with lower cost materials.

ThEoRy
03-05-2013, 10:48 PM
Oooh forgot to mention coke bottle. Also, I don't care if it doesn't have an integral bolster, it can be peenned on or even just a different material a la Del/Dave. I'm flexible with whatever works best for the community.

chinacats
03-05-2013, 11:03 PM
I would vote for a coke bottle shape in some natural New England wood--cherry might be very nice. Bolster preferred but not necessary.

Cheers!

labor of love
03-05-2013, 11:14 PM
so the "coke bottle" handle is the bottom pic of the ginga? i really like the handle in the top pic on the right, what knife is that? im guessing the knife on the left in the top pic is a martell handle.

Lefty
03-05-2013, 11:28 PM
I really really like the Ginga (it is a Ginga, correct?). The old-timey pins are great, and the shape is simple and elegant. Something like that would look incredible, in my opinion. I don't know if I'm for the super plain wood idea, though. I'd sooner have something with a bit of excitement...I'm not talking spalted mango or anything, but cherry is awfully vanilla, even for this project.

PierreRodrigue
03-05-2013, 11:32 PM
Whats a Ginga, and which is the coke bottle? I like the multiple pins on the micarta handle....

Lefty
03-05-2013, 11:34 PM
I'm talking about the Micarta, and very possibly out my ass.

ThEoRy
03-05-2013, 11:49 PM
Personally I'm not a fan of the multiple small pins. I prefer the classic 3 pin look.

chinacats
03-05-2013, 11:52 PM
...I'm not talking spalted mango or anything, but cherry is awfully vanilla, even for this project.:lol2:



How about 3 pins in a coke bottle shape made of Wenge--reasonable priced and well figured.

franzb69
03-06-2013, 12:02 AM
that version of coke bottle handle is more subtle and more preferable (at least by myself) than what's on the hattori FH. not that hattori FH handles aren't great, coz as i've read on many other threads that they are. i just don't prefer them.

=D


How about 3 pins in a coke bottle shape made of Wenge--reasonable priced and well figured.

i like this, or even the old timey pins.

PierreRodrigue
03-06-2013, 12:03 AM
13800

So something like this?

ChefOnAWire
03-06-2013, 12:06 AM
I think I said something a few pages back about the coke bottle style handle nice to see i'm not alone in my love for it. I'v only ever used it on the Hattori FH gyuto and that has bolsters. Bolsters can be nice on some knives as they really help with weight distribution but as this isn't a 270mm knife and the blade is a thinner profile they might not be "needed". I dont know about everyone else but I like my knives more blade heavy anyway. As for wood I'm a fan on the burnt chestnut on the Gengetsu, I really know nothing of Lamson but anyone think they are capable of doing a burnt chestnut handle?

ThEoRy
03-06-2013, 12:10 AM
13800

So something like this?

Shape yes, pins no. Too many, and odd always looks better than even.

chinacats
03-06-2013, 12:13 AM
Shape yes, pins no. Too many, and odd always looks better than even.

+1

The wood in that is beautiful as well, but I'm guessing above the budget for this knife?

franzb69
03-06-2013, 12:16 AM
So something like this?

i like it.


I really know nothing of Lamson but anyone think they are capable of doing a burnt chestnut handle?

i suggested burnt chestnut as well. i've read on somewhere that burnt chestnut gives a warm feeling handle. so adding that to the coke bottle shape would make a really comfy handle. wenge looks nice though.

labor of love
03-06-2013, 12:17 AM
so the "coke bottle" handle is the bottom pic of the ginga? i really like the handle in the top pic on the right, what knife is that? im guessing the knife on the left in the top pic is a martell handle.
allow me to rephrase this. the bottom pic is a gesshin ginga, the handle shape looks pretty similar to the handle on the knife in the top pic on the right, no? these 2 handles are "coke bottle" handles right? the knife handle in the top pic on the left is really really cool. i like em all but i really like that handle in the top pic on the left.

ChefOnAWire
03-06-2013, 12:42 AM
i suggested burnt chestnut as well. i've read on somewhere that burnt chestnut gives a warm feeling handle. so adding that to the coke bottle shape would make a really comfy handle. wenge looks nice though.

The burnt chestnut does have a nice slightly textured feel to it, my Chef has a 240mm Gengetsu gyuto. Looking at what I could find on wenge I have to say it is very beautiful and you can skip the burning process which will help with cost.

franzb69
03-06-2013, 12:54 AM
ok i've been sounding like i'm just spewing out a bunch of random stuff.... but i can't help it. this is just too cool not to participate in.....

black palm would look pretty awesome too, seeing that it needs to be stabilized

but might be more expensive?

Chuckles
03-06-2013, 02:04 AM
To clear things up a bit. Justin's first pic is of two twin Martell's (and my crotch). :O

Here are a couple of angles of the aforementioned Dave handle side by side with a slightly oversized bolsterless coke bottle handle on a forgecraft.

I like the top line of the coke bottle handle. The way Dave's handle bell's out away from the blade might look really sweet with a distal taper on the tang.

don
03-06-2013, 02:10 AM
Dave's handles are really slick.

gic
03-06-2013, 02:16 AM
What about Cocobolo, I like my knives with handles made from it.

And on a more practical note: how does one get on the list for buying this knife....

labor of love
03-06-2013, 02:31 AM
yeah, they sure are. i like the handle on chuckles martell, but the other martell is amazing.

Chuckles
03-06-2013, 02:31 AM
While Dave's handle is the most comfortable western handle I have ever used, I think we need to acknowledge how sh!tt^ it would be to use his forum as a vehicle to steal his design.

kalaeb
03-06-2013, 02:33 AM
Shape yes, pins no. Too many, and odd always looks better than even.

I always likes the look of a few more smaller pins opposed to three big rivets, especially on a gloss black handle. I think it makes it look more refined.

JohnnyChance
03-06-2013, 03:04 AM
I would say skip the bolsters, coke bottle shaping, extra pins, etc and go with simple scales. If you want that stuff, get it done in the aftermarket. Or maybe Tom could commission a few different special handles from some of our craftsman here and sell them as upgrades or special editions.

mhlee
03-06-2013, 03:27 AM
I would say skip the bolsters, coke bottle shaping, extra pins, etc and go with simple scales. If you want that stuff, get it done in the aftermarket. Or maybe Tom could commission a few different special handles from some of our craftsman here and sell them as upgrades or special editions.

+1

The more time and effort you put into the handle, the more the price of this knife is going to increase - substantially.

BTW - from what I recall, that Gesshin Ginga Honyaki handle in the picture with small pins in the handle is a special order and a significantly higher price.

Justin0505
03-06-2013, 03:55 AM
Thanks for posting those pics Charlie!

The "other" Martell in the photo belongs to Karring (Mr. Drinky) but is actually hanging on my wall ATM. It's actually a bit bigger / less rounded / more wedge-shaped than mine (the one that Chuckles currently has / posted pics of).

My reason for posting this was that I see the "coke bottle" and the Martell "wedge" as 2 of the most successful and evolved / refined variants of simple "slab sided" western handles. I certainly wasn't advocating making an exact copy of any existing maker's handle; but just wanted to post these 2 as good examples of each style so we could pick a direction and then start to narrow it down.

A comfortable, durable handle is, IMO one of the most important parts of a knife, and I'd like the handle on this knife to be good enough that you really would never NEED to replace it for any reason other than wanting something with more bling, so I'm opposed to totally vanilla "slab" scales or cheap, non-stabilized wood. Every western handle that I've ever seen that's made out of domestic hardwood has had some problem with shrinking, cracking or needing constant oil. I think that would be totally unacceptable on this this knife. Still, I understand if the majority would rather have mediocre wood than the blasphemy of a synthetic... I'll just probably pass on it and have mine re-handled.

So for handle styles do you prefer:
- Coke Bottle
- Martell Wedge
- Plain ol' slab-scales

For Handle Material do you prefer:
- Cheap Domestic Hardwood
- Resin Stabilized Wood
- Synthetic (something like micrata or g10)

Once we reach a consensus on a general design and material, we can start to hone in on the specific details. Is there a way to make a pole where people can vote? I think that you might have to be it's own thread as I cant seem to figure it out in here.

brainsausage
03-06-2013, 04:18 AM
Took the words right outta my mouth... Keep it frickin simple people. We're trying to make a knife for the masses, right? That is the point, correct? How do most people hold a knife? By the handle. Not with a pinch grip. I KNOW- not everyone has the same grip, but the majority of people DO(I personally use a pinch grip, but I've learned from experience- that the majority of people do not). So who are we designing this knife for? Ourselves? Pros? Semi pros? The unenlightened? The inbetweeners?

A simple, comfy handle, will help to accentuate a superior blade profile. And no- I don't think blade profiles are quite as negotiable as handles. What is a simple comfy handle? I'm not sure yet. But wa's are still a bit foreign to the majority(and this coming from someone who HEAVILY PREFERS WA'S!). Marketing can help overcome this, but that's a whole other kettle...

Trying to take into account after market customization is limiting the end product. Presume that it's made to last. And if it succeeds- produce another line that's better suited to nitpicking.

I may be WAAAAYYYY off base here, and please correct me if I am.

77kath
03-06-2013, 07:47 AM
I've always liked the Forgecraft handles

toddnmd
03-06-2013, 08:08 AM
I agree that keeping it simple seems like the best course. I think that probably means a western style handle (I personally like wa handles, too, but that doesn't seem like the best fit for this knife). I'm not crazy about just plain slabs--it would be nice to have something with some curve, something that someone picks up and it immediately feels natural.

I second the vote for cocobolo. You can find some that's reasonably priced, and it's got a classic beauty.

tgraypots
03-06-2013, 08:09 AM
I have to chime in. "We" are not designing a knife for the masses. "We" are not trying to get Lamson back on track. What we are doing is designing a knife, collaboratively, for the members of this forum who are interested in participating, and that this particular group will be happy with. Thats all I got.

Lefty
03-06-2013, 09:11 AM
My vision for this knife is somewhat complicated and multi-leveled. I see this knife being:

Around 7 years from now, like the Hattori Forum knife.

The answer to, "I really want a great carbon steel knife that will last and impress for a very reasonable price. What should I get"?

And the stainless version that I hope comes out as a clone, with different steel should be the answer to, "What knife should I get that is low maintenance, and pure performance"?

This knife should not need to be upgraded, nor should it have what I call a "throw away handle". These aren't Carter SFGZ knives...no offense, Murray (we all know you read this forum).

Even though the price will be very reasonable, I don't want it to appear that we cheaped out. In fact, I won't cheap out. You'd be amazed what we can get done for a difference of only a few bucks.

This knife should be one that we don't get tired of in a year; It will be designed with quality and style in mind, and not a fleeting trend, or on the premise of, "well, guys are just going to change it anyways"

To further emphasis the above point, this is a complete package and NOT a knife blank.

This knife is designed with the input of the members here, to match up with our ideals, and overall skill-set. While we aren't all knife ninjas. We most definitely do have better knife skills than many chefs out there, and 99% of the general public.

However, there's no reason an advanced knife with upscale styling, great quality and high performance can't be affordable, feel good in anyone's hand and make people look at it and think, "Now that's a knife I would like to own".


I'm going to sketch up a couple quick and dirty pics of handles and see if this takes us in the right direction. I really do not want this knife to be made assuming part of it will be altered. I know this is likely to happen with pretty much any knife we get our hands on, but to design a knife with this mentality is to create a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure.

ajhuff
03-06-2013, 09:52 AM
Three comments from a manufacturing guy.

1) The goals at some point will need to be ironed out and then pretty much set in stone. 12 pages deep and you can see that people have different perspectives on the goal. Your vision is a good start Tom.

2) At some point soon you really need to commit to a manufacturer, at this point it is assumed to be Lamson it seems, and discuss the capabilities with the manufacturer. Too many assumptions are being made. Examples, I know Lamson says they have a custom shop with complete woodworking capability, but every handle in their catalog is a classic western style with 3 rivets. A wa- style handle is probably outside their capability. Likewise a 6 pin handle probably doesn't fit their set up. The same may also be true of the coke bottle shape.

3) Even sooner you need to set a price point.

-AJ

franzb69
03-06-2013, 10:31 AM
somewhere around $150 is gonna yield a pretty darn good knife me thinks

=D

Lefty
03-06-2013, 10:49 AM
Here's what I'm envisioning as the handle, but with Wenge, or another highly figured, warm textured wood. Cocobolo could do very well, as well. I would not be at all against adding a "ferrule" or peened bolster to this shape, as I think it would be a beautiful update on the old Forgecraft style of handle.

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc399/Lefty-T/74A81B28-B5F9-4354-A92C-10300C4755CC-12196-00000F05D52BFC09.jpg

Lefty
03-06-2013, 11:01 AM
Oh, G10 or another good synthetic might be a nice way to bring this into more modern times. Thoughts?

Chuckles
03-06-2013, 11:09 AM
I think if we go with that kind of forgecrafty look (which looks pretty good) it needs to be wood.

I also like the looks of the handle on the Harner bullnose on your site.

http://sharpandshinyshop.com/collections/knives/products/butch-harner-7-bullnose-knife

ajhuff
03-06-2013, 11:25 AM
I for one LOVE g10.

-AJ

PierreRodrigue
03-06-2013, 11:41 AM
There may be an option of using G10 or wood. 2 options. I will check.

mhlee
03-06-2013, 11:44 AM
somewhere around $150 is gonna yield a pretty darn good knife me thinks

=D

Until Tom comes up with an anticipated price, I think it's best NOT to even mention a price. You're going to create an expectation that something can be done at a certain price and, at this time, I'm assuming that there has been NO mention of a possible price because nothing has been even tentatively agreed upon except for the basic profile of the knife and the steel.