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Customfan
03-08-2013, 03:56 PM
Is It a defect/Minor Issue/Character :nunchucks:

A while ago there was some controversy regarding what a "quality" knife was, It got me thinking about the definition of what a quality product is, Juran Defines it as the development (providing) of products that meet customers needs.

So what are customers needs? :juggle:

I thought that it is very important to understand what are the needs, requirements and expectations for customers....but it proves very difficult in practice, mainly because each of us has a different idea of whats important (profile, finish, uniqueness, etc. )... that got me thinking that maybe we can understand what a FLAW is and go from there.... so I thought maybe these 3 categories might help!

1) What is a defect?
2) What is a minor issue
3) What is just plain character (Wabi-sabi) (Something beautiful and unique)

Here is my take on a bunch of occurrences, So...what are your biggest peeves and where do they land? here is a start/idea... maybe Im completely off, what do you think?

DEFECT :scared4:

Irregularity in sizing between knives (for non customs)
Gash in wood (not filled)
Big hole in damascus pattern
Gap between blade and handle on wa's
Major fit and finish issues (pertruding tang)
A Clunker (As Dave would call it in a previous post)
De-lamination of blade or finish.
Major fit and finish issues (What are those?)

MINOR :scratchhead:

Handle not completely symmetrical (When it was supposed to be)
Gash in wood (Filled)
Blade discoloration
Handle Shrinkage
Small fit and finish issues (A pertruding pin)
Off centered pin?
Small gap between tang and wood
Crooked blade (Fixable)
Not properly tapered (Disproportionately)
Food sticks to blade? (Or is this a characteristic? not sure..)

CHARACTER :thumbsup:

Planned variation on color of wood
Variations on Kanji
Variations in damascus (Minor?)
Wood character


And finally
Is there a difference and does there need to be a distinction between customs and production knives for this? and must there be a distinction between Wa and YO for this as well?

kalaeb
03-08-2013, 04:09 PM
Is It a defect/Minor Issue/Character :nunchucks:




DEFECT :scared4:

Irregularity in sizing between knives (for non customs)So, handmade knives, Takeda for example, non custom, but definitely variation is a major flaw?
Gash in wood (not filled)
Big hole in damascus pattern
Gap between blade and handle on wa's I was under the impression this was sometimes done on purpose, maybe I misunderstand what you mean
Major fit and finish issues (pertruding tang)like a cck? I have never seen this one
A Clunker (As Dave would call it in a previous post)
De-lamination of blade or finish.

MINOR :scratchhead:

Small wood discoloration (not planned) Natural woods will always have some discoloration
Gash in wood (Filled)again, working with natural product, some with high figure are going to have scratches, small cracks and voids
Blade discoloration
Handle Shrinkage just a fact of life, its gonna happen, even with stabilized wood, I don't view this as a defect
Small fit and finish issues (A pertruding pin)a result of shrinkage
Off centered pin?agree
Small gap between tang and wood agree, although this can be the result of shrinkage too, for me it would depend
Crooked blade (Fixable)

CHARACTER :thumbsup:

Planned variation on color of wood
Variations on Kanji
Variations in damascus (Minor?)
Wood character


And finally
Is there a difference and does there need to be a distinction between customs and production knives for this? and must there be a distinction between Wa and YO for this as well?I think there should be a distinction, not always as a result of production v. custom, but of price, the more I pay, the more I expect. Wa's and Yo's should be similar, imo

Customfan
03-08-2013, 04:21 PM
Interesting! thats what I was going for, finding out what is considered normal and what isnt? any you want to add?

On the gap between blade and handle I meant actual holes in the installation.. not machi.

On pertruding Tang I was thinking the metal part pertruding from the handle when it shouldn't, kind of like a premature shrinkage but big time!

I completely agree on the character of wood... Its natural, therefore almost imposible to predict

Now... any on stabilization?
how about issues like chipping and those associated with hardness or treatment?
How about retention and toughness? is that an issue or just a characteristic?

mhlee
03-08-2013, 05:09 PM
I consider grind issues, depending on fixability, to fall into these categories as well.

Notaskinnychef
03-08-2013, 05:57 PM
damn shrinkage..... :curse:

Benuser
03-08-2013, 06:15 PM
I consider grind issues, depending on fixability, to fall into these categories as well.
+1
a real issue is one I can't address - and nobody can, such as a serious overgrind.

eshua
03-08-2013, 06:25 PM
Do women even know about shrinkage?

knyfeknerd
03-08-2013, 06:36 PM
Do women even know about shrinkage?
Like a frightened turtle.

pete84
03-08-2013, 06:38 PM
+1
a real issue is one I can't address - and nobody can, such as a serious overgrind.

This I agree with... uncorrectable/unfixable is a defect, while what can be addressed is a flaw...

James
03-08-2013, 06:45 PM
Where do guys think bends/warping belong?

mhlee
03-08-2013, 07:35 PM
Do women even know about shrinkage?

No.

stevenStefano
03-08-2013, 07:42 PM
On a Western handle if the tang and scales are not even. This might seem minor but to me it says the maker is lazy. It's such an obvious flaw that causes discomfort when using it, that if I got such a knife I'd consider sending it back. Cost would play a part though so if it was cheap then it would be closer to acceptable

77kath
03-08-2013, 07:50 PM
Do women even know about shrinkage?

Yes

pete84
03-08-2013, 09:17 PM
Do women even know about shrinkage?

This deserves a thread of its own.

Chef Doom
03-09-2013, 03:20 AM
Do women even know about shrinkage?

Many women could use lots of shrinkage.

Salty dog
03-09-2013, 07:29 AM
Especially in Wisconsin. Known for cheese, beer and bratwurst.

Customfan
03-09-2013, 07:57 AM
I hear you Scott! we have enough of that here! :spitcoffee: :viking:

James, IMHO bending would be a flaw and warping a Defect, part of me want to say a lot of flaws should be defects because they should have been caught by the maker in the first place but it depends... Fixable and ease of it plays a huge part I guess.

mhlee and Pete84, I completely agree on grind Issues (Correctable or non). How about having to regrind a knife aftermarket? Should it have been done beforehand?

Any on?:

a) How about irregular bevels.
b) How about profile...
c) Pithing? (I had major Issues with a Shun once)
d) Any on Flex?
e) Sayas (Fit, Movement, scratching the blade, pins, fitting universal sayas, others?)


Kalaeb... Found an interesting topic on your response. Are you more forgiving depending on price point? What issues move from Defect to flaw depending on price?

And what is that price point? 300 VS 1000? What Issues wouldn't you compromise on?

:cool2:

marc4pt0
03-09-2013, 09:33 AM
I'm a Huge fan of the carbon zKramers, got 3 of 'em. But it still agitates me that the wood scales suffer from "shrinkage" before I even open the box. luckily I've never paid full price for them, for that kind of money I expect a little better...

mikemac
03-09-2013, 10:41 AM
Is It a defect/Minor Issue/Character :nunchucks:

.....And finally
Is there a difference and does there need to be a distinction between customs and production knives for this? ...


First - I think you would need to add "artisanal"....I wouldn't call Takeda (for example) production or custom. That said, every Takeda (again, for example) I've owned has been an inconsistent size, been funky where the tang meets handle, and has waves/warps that extend from choil to tip AND spine to edge. Knowing that, its not 'fair' for me to tell a future buyer that all Takedas have defects, but rather I'd say they all are scary sharp with bada$$ edges...AND have certain other 'characteristics'. In contrast, Watanabe, who I'd also categorize as 'artisanal', have none of these same characteristics except the scary sharp edge.

Second thought would be 'context'. I think maybe 5%, or 10% of the names that get mentioned can be called 'production'...Shun, Tojiro, MAC, Global, probably Misono and Hiromoto...AND CCK. But do you hold CCK to the same standards as Misono?

Customfan
03-09-2013, 07:37 PM
Ok, good point.. And I agree that you cant put them in the same place as production... Not to say some of them cant be just as good or better!

Artisanal are in a different category, thats a different story, we need to arrive on an consensus of what exactly artisanal is! :angel2:

Made by a few artisans? How many?
Controlled circumstances...Which ones?
Limited Numbers... How many?
A family tradition... How long?
A combination of all of these? :juggle:

On #1, weve come to "expect" that takedas have a certain charact because they perform well and are generally accepted, variations and all. So that is the standard (for them) but I bet if we suddenly had that "character" arrive on a Suisin or a Watanabe (to use your same example) it wouldn't be as kosher!

Are some knives subject to their own set of rules? Maybe! :wink:

On #2, Context, yes, I agree... missono maybe has less variations, better materials and in a way may have a better standing (and im not sure at that) than say a CCK, but then...

Aren't CCKs worth like 6 times less than a Misono? So price is a variable..
They are completely different knives..
Is Misono a Production knife and where does CCK stand? Artisanal? Then what is the real difference? And shouldn't artisanal always cost more because they tend to be made in more limited numbers and THUS be rarer? I bet demand plays a huge role...

DISCUSS !!!!!!!!! :peepwall:

Interesting for sure! :yammer:

pete84
03-09-2013, 11:34 PM
All I know is my watanabe yanagi and shig deba don't have the problems mentioned here. A real handmade custom is probably subject to stricter QC than a manufactured piece. I'm willing to bet that the variances of each knife depends on the quality standards and acceptable levels of imperfection for each manufacturer/brand.

Chef Doom
03-12-2013, 01:30 AM
A minor issue is when it takes more than 1 whack to sever a chickens head.

A defect is when it breaks in half after preparing a salad on my stainless steel cutting board.

Wabi-sabi is when it comes without a handle, or a tang.