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mhlee
03-20-2013, 09:42 PM
I'm posting here because the "What Knife Should You Buy" sticky/thread is closed.

We've had those questions for some time, and, although it's a good start in my opinion, it seems that some critical questions could be included in order to better assist members, especially new ones, who are looking to buy a new knife.

Currently, these are the questions:

----------

What type of knife(s) do you think you want?

Why is it being purchased? What, if anything, are you replacing?

What do you like and dislike about these qualities of your knives already?
Aesthetics-
Edge Quality/Retention-
Ease of Use-
Comfort-

What grip do you use?

What kind of cutting motion do you use?

Where do you store them?

Have you ever oiled a handle?

What kind of cutting board(s) do you use?

For edge maintenance, do you use a strop, honing rod, pull through/other, or nothing?

Have they ever been sharpened?

What is your budget?

What do you cook and how often?

Special requests(Country of origin/type of wood/etc)?

----------

Follow up questions to these always seem include:

1. What length of knife are you looking for?
2. Western or wa handled knife?
3. Are you right or left handed?

Are there other questions that you think should be included?

Jmadams13
03-20-2013, 09:58 PM
Steel preference?

Johnny.B.Good
03-20-2013, 10:15 PM
Steel preference?

I was going to say the same thing (stainless or carbon).

Customfan
03-20-2013, 10:17 PM
I agree, but as long as it is easy to answer.... I wouldn't try to narrow the steel just yet. Maybe leave it like you guys just said... Carbon or stainless...

Let the community suggest the best steel...

And what do you cook? Maybe what ingredients do you cut, or what kind of ingredients do you commonly use your knife on...

I prefer direct questions... Less room for interpretation.

:2cents:

kalaeb
03-21-2013, 12:44 AM
Personaly I think some of the questions silly and generally have no sway in the suggestions I make, for example:

"have you ever oiled a handle", who cares, unless you are getting a custom handle, pom, g10, ho....all the same.
"Where do you store them" again, who cares, not going to make a suggestion for a knife based on where you keep it.
"Type of cutting board"...whether its epicurean, end grain, bamboo, or poly, it does nothing except give us ammo to ridicule, and is not a deciding factor for most knife suggestions.

Just my opinion on it.

franzb69
03-21-2013, 12:51 AM
"Where do you store them" again, who cares, not going to make a suggestion for a knife based on where you keep it.

noobs most of the time keep their knives in a drawer banging around with other things so if we suggest to keep their knives somewhere else or in a knife drawer that doesn't let stuff bang around each other then it would help them a lot better and help educate them =D

or some other place that would hurt the knives....

rdm_magic
03-21-2013, 12:55 AM
noobs always keep their knives in a drawer banging around with other things so if we suggest to keep their knives somewhere else or in a knife drawer that doesn't let stuff bang around each other then it would help them a lot better and help educate them =D

Would be better to simply write a paragraph about how to store knives, and what kind of boards to use than ask. As Kalaeb said, all that asking does is give a reason to pick fault with people.

Type of steel is the biggest thing I think is missing. Maybe where the knife will be used.

franzb69
03-21-2013, 01:04 AM
Would be better to simply write a paragraph about how to store knives, and what kind of boards to use than ask. As Kalaeb said, all that asking does is give a reason to pick fault with people.

understood. then maybe a sticky on knife grips, knife storage, knife maintenance, and what kind of boards are suggested should be in order =D

ThEoRy
03-21-2013, 01:07 AM
Carbon or stainless, home or pro environment.

rdm_magic
03-21-2013, 01:16 AM
understood. then maybe a sticky on knife grips, knife storage, knife maintenance, and what kind of boards are suggested should be in order =D


Personally, I'd even go as far as to sticky a range of commonly recommended knives, and the pros and cons of them. That all depends on if we actually want to have the 'what knife should I get' threads though.

franzb69
03-21-2013, 02:35 AM
a flowchart type of if then yes type of thing would work but that would take too long and too big a flowchart. lol.

Stumblinman
03-21-2013, 03:09 AM
wow lotta work yes, and thorough. (Ha that word looks wrong typed out :) ) But if someone is going to spend the time to ask for help picking out a knife I don't see them just throwing it in a 'drawer' amongst other metal scrapping utensils. Maybe a sticky on how to store long term and how to transport may be in order but, as I've seen there are people with scotch taped cardboard and also nicely made sayas for this... As far as oiling handles, I got hooked once I bought my first bottle of oil. It opened my eyes as to what the wood can do, from cheap to non. Hell, I oil my fish spat and that cost $20 and don't let it go through the dish anymore. ahhhh I'm corrupted.. :D

franzb69
03-21-2013, 03:22 AM
But if someone is going to spend the time to ask for help picking out a knife I don't see them just throwing it in a 'drawer' amongst other metal scrapping utensils

yes, but i doubt it'll be just that one person to use that knife in a home situation and that will lead to problems in the future. better to let them know now than let them find out for themselves, me thinks.

=D

cookinstuff
03-21-2013, 03:42 AM
Not sure if it was here, or on the old forum. But, there was a gyuto review thread with good specs and small review on each. Lots of popular gyutos on it if I remember right, might be in need of a good updating. Would be a good thread to have kicking around for people, I have seen alot of Gesshin vs. Kono vs. Yusuke vs. Suisin vs. IT lately. Having weight/size comparisons available on one thread can be enough to help people make a decision easier. It would also be funny to see how the knives have changed, I recall it had knives like Aritsugu A type, Blazen, Hattori, Masamoto, Ikkanshi Tadatsuna, Mizuno. Would be a lot of work to compile all of that info though :whistling:

jaybett
03-21-2013, 03:51 AM
The problem with the "What knife should you buy" questions: They assume a person has a working knowledge of high end knives. Also its hard to determine what information is trying to be gleaned from some of the questions.

What type of knife(s) do you think you want?

I'd think that most people who are new to this forum, have had a positive experience with their Global/Shun or another knife brand, and are wondering about the next step? How are they to know about a gyuto, sujihiki, deba, etc....

Why is it being purchased? What, if anything, are you replacing?

What do you like and dislike about these qualities of your knives already?
Aesthetics-
Edge Quality/Retention-
Ease of Use-
Comfort-

Again an experienced user could say, edge retention, ease of sharpening. A new user wants to see and learn about what would be the next step.

What grip do you use?

How does grip, affect the selection of a knife, either wa or western handled?

What kind of cutting motion do you use?

Chopping versus Push Cutting. European style knife versus a Japanese style knife. Which type of knife fits your cutting style? The problem most people until they come to the forums don't know about push cutting.

Where do you store them?

How does this help make a selection?

Have you ever oiled a handle?

The question is trying to determine how much effort a person is willing to put into a knife's upkeep? It is an awkward and confusing question.

What kind of cutting board(s) do you use?

How is a cutting board a factor in choosing a knife?

For edge maintenance, do you use a strop, honing rod, pull through/other, or nothing?

Another awkward question.

Have they ever been sharpened?

The question should be followed up with what method was used to sharpen your knife?

What is your budget?

A new person may be wondering how much they have to spend to get a quality knife.

What do you cook and how often?

A better question would be what types of food to you like to cook? Do you have a favorite cuisine? How many people do you cook for on a regular basis. Do you cook for large groups? Are you a home cook? Do you cook in a restaurant?

Special requests(Country of origin/type of wood/etc)?

How does this question have any bearing on the selection of a knife?

Types of metal is a good question for an experienced user. A new person might be surprised to learn that carbon is an option, since most knives in the kitchen are stainless.

Maybe some new stickies to guide new users on topics they want to consider before buying a knife, with topics such as: Differences between German and Japanese knifes. Why kind of cook would appreciate a German knife or a Japanese knife? What is required to take care of a Japanese knife? What are the advantages/disadvantages of carbon and stainless steel? What to expect from a knife at the $100 - $200 level, the $300 - $400 level, $500 and up?

Jay

Matus
03-21-2013, 09:21 AM
Jay, you do have a point. One one would need is a few separate info-threads/posts aimed at beginners that give the basic knowledge about knives in general. Question is - is there enough interest and who is willing to invest the time and effort AND how it should be implemented in the forum such that it does not get overlooked 90% of the time.

franzb69
03-21-2013, 09:39 AM
in the interest of helping out folks who find it very intimidating to go to knife forums with little to no knowledge about knives and such.... it would be a great help for them....

hoimin
03-21-2013, 11:45 AM
The What Knife Should I Buy questionnaire is pretty solid, but definitely geared towards a more knowledgeable crowd.
There is room for paring it down the number of questions, sectioning it off into critical need-to-knows (set the bevel), and refining questions (polish your edge). Fewer questions, and making it obvious which ones need to be answered makes the questionnaire easier to answer.

As Matus pointed out, a great way to inform more prospective knife buyers before they ask the question is to include links to more information within the questionnaire itself. There is a lot of good information scattered throughout this forum but new people aren't going to find it unless they know the terms to search for. Outside of this forum, it's a messy world of misconceptions. I think it'd be great to have one-stop-shop threads for Knife Types, Steel Types, Edge Maintenance, and Wood Maintenance referenced within WKSIB. Each main thread could have an expert curator with threads about the theory, and practical applications.

This is by no means comprehensive, but based on what I've seen in a lot of these threads, the mandatory questions might be:

Budget
Left/Right Handed
Application: home/pro environment? what food is being cut?


Refining questions would be stuff like:

What do you already have?
Handle preference
Steel preference
Sharpening practice
Etc.


Any questions that require elaboration can have a link to the Kitchen Knife Knowledge thread pertaining to the topic. A new knife knut would then have no excuse. If an expert knut wants the forum's opinion on what knife to buy next, that person already knows what context to provide.

Dave Martell
03-21-2013, 01:08 PM
If someone is willing to redo the questionnaire (maybe a tweaked version?) then I'll get it posted.

Also, if anyone wants to tackle something like a knife list with attributes. etc then I'll post that too, probably in the Kitchen Knowledge section though.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 01:18 PM
If someone is willing to redo the questionnaire (maybe a tweaked version?) then I'll get it posted.

Also, if anyone wants to tackle something like a knife list with attributes. etc then I'll post that too, probably in the Kitchen Knowledge section though.


Since I started this thread, I'll do the revised questionnaire. I'll post a revised one here for review.

Dave Martell
03-21-2013, 01:54 PM
Cool, thanks Michael!

mhlee
03-21-2013, 02:13 PM
Jay, you do have a point. One one would need is a few separate info-threads/posts aimed at beginners that give the basic knowledge about knives in general.

In my experience, there are really only a few universally accepted facts about knives, except, maybe, a sharp knife is better than a dull knife, and some things about steel, e.g., higher hardness steel is likely to be more prone to chipping. Sure, there can be some threads about the terminology and parts of a knife, but does that really help a member choose a knife? (Note that the original questionnaire had links and there are PLENTY of threads in Kitchen Knife Knowledge that cover basic principles and more.)

Opinions and experiences vary tremendously and the context of the person's opinion and experience are critical. (I think the pro/home environment question is essential.) One knife that someone loves, may be a knife that someone else hates. Sharpness, thickness, weight, balance, vary with every knife, and as a knife gets used, it changes. A single steel used by different maker exhibits completely different characteristics. The only way to provide "basic knowledge" about specific knives, IMHO, is to provide such knowledge about a knife right out of the box, and give each a similar edge which is nearly impossible because of human differences, steel, etc.

And, this was not the purpose of this thread, which was to focus the questionnaire so that it's more responsive to members who are looking for knives - to obtain information from the member, so we can then provide better information to the member, not just to throw information at them because the member may not even care about that. Expecting a member to accept information, opinions at face value requires a willingness to learn from the member, which, in my experience, is sometimes too much to expect, not to mention the fact that many opinions posted may not be based on personal experience or facts.

I can't tell you how many times how many times I've asked what kind of performance a member is looking for only to have them simply say "I want something that will keep an edge a long time" and then have them go off and list a number of great looking knives, that are way beyond, for example, their stated budget and that may or may not be appropriate for the member, even though I (or someone else) asked repeatedly about performance, food release, wedging, etc. (Sound familiar, Matus?) More importantly, most people who want great knives aren't even prepared for (1) the price, or (2) the care required.

But, rather than blaming the member who filled out the questionnaire for not providing enough information, we can revise the questionnaire to address some of these deficiencies.

rdpx
03-21-2013, 02:15 PM
From my recent experience of knowing nothing about knives and coming here I can say that the question about oiling a handle made me think "of course I have never oiled a handle" and seemed elitist. I think it served an interesting purpose though, which was to put into my mind the fact that handles might actually need oiling. Similarly with chopping boards, sharpening/maintenance and storage questions. It makes you realise that these are important things to consider with decent knives.

Maybe a questionnaire should have some initial sections somewhat like this [what my answers would have been will follow in italics]:


1. Budget, L/R handed, use. (~$150, R, general cookery)

2. What do you have already, and why are you looking for a new knife? (10 yr old battered stainless 8" Sabatier, it is old and battered and I think it is time for a new knife. Also have a small Global that I rarely use.)

3. Are you looking at a particular knife, or type of knife, and do you know why? (I was looking at wusthofs etc then discovered the world of J-knives and so would like a J-knife because They seem to be the best. I think an 8" gyuto?)


Then have some refining/technical questions about the knife, ie:

4. Are you aware of differences in steel types, and do you have a preference? (unaware, willing to learn)

5. Would you like a wa or yo handle? (unaware, willing to try anything)

6. are any of the following important to you, and how: aesthetics, weight, etc(?) (aesthetics are important, but very subjective. I like the kanji, I would like a light knife perhaps.

Then have Q's to teach maintenance.

7. What kind of chopping board, pointing out that Wood/plastic are ok, glass etc not okay (bamboo, willing to learn)

8. Sharpening and edge maintenance, handle oiling, pointing out that decent knives need decent maintenance. (I have a 240/1000 stone, again I need to learn all this stuff, didn't realise a knife would be so complicated!)

>>>>>>
EDIT as I just read Michaels post above:

I think you are right - it is important with the questionnaire to establish quickly whether the person is a complete novice (like I was), or whether they are someone who has pretty good knowledge and has a decent idea what they want. It might even be good to have a link that says "if you are a novice, then you should read this first" that links to a basic guide detailing costs and what you can get in each price band, differences in steels and maintenace, and the need for stones with suggestion of very basic entry set-ups etc.

It can be tiresome to see one's advice ignored, but it also is tiresome to say "I have budget of $100" and then get recommendations with no qualification for $200 knives!

mhlee
03-21-2013, 02:18 PM
From my recent experience of knowing nothing about knives and coming here I can say that the question about oiling a handle made me think "of course I have never oiled a handle" and seemed elitist. I think it served an interesting purpose though, which was to put into my mind the fact that handles might actually need oiling. Similarly with chopping boards, sharpening/maintenance and storage questions. It makes you realise that these are important things to consider with decent knives.

Maybe a questionnaire should have some initial sections somewhat like this [what my answers would have been will follow in italics]:


1. Budget, L/R handed, use. (~$150, R, general cookery)

2. What do you have already, and why are you looking for a new knife? (10 yr old battered stainless 8" Sabatier, it is old and battered and I think it is time for a new knife. Also have a small Global that I rarely use.)

3. Are you looking at a particular knife, or type of knife, and do you know why? (I was looking at wusthofs etc then discovered the world of J-knives and so would like a J-knife because They seem to be the best. I think an 8" gyuto?)


Then have some refining/technical questions about the knife, ie:

4. Are you aware of differences in steel types, and do you have a preference? (unaware, willing to learn)

5. Would you like a wa or yo handle? (unaware, willing to try anything)

6. are any of the following important to you, and how: aesthetics, weight, etc(?) (aesthetics are important, but very subjective. I like the kanji, I would like a light knife perhaps.

Then have Q's to teach maintenance.

7. What kind of chopping board, pointing out that Wood/plastic are ok, glass etc not okay (bamboo, willing to learn)

8. Sharpening and edge maintenance, handle oiling, pointing out that decent knives need decent maintenance. (I have a 240/1000 stone, again I need to learn all this stuff, didn't realise a knife would be so complicated!)

If you look back at the questionnaires that have been answered, most people don't bother to provide such detailed answers.

rdpx
03-21-2013, 02:24 PM
If you look back at the questionnaires that have been answered, most people don't bother to provide such detailed answers.

True enough - I am guessing a lot of people just think "hey I want a cool japanese knife, I'll just tell these forum guys I want to spend $200 on a shiny one"

(nb I edited my reply above for you)

mhlee
03-21-2013, 02:25 PM
Maybe some new stickies to guide new users on topics they want to consider before buying a knife, with topics such as: Differences between German and Japanese knifes. Why kind of cook would appreciate a German knife or a Japanese knife? What is required to take care of a Japanese knife? What are the advantages/disadvantages of carbon and stainless steel? What to expect from a knife at the $100 - $200 level, the $300 - $400 level, $500 and up?

Jay

Jay:

Most of these questions are addressed in Kitchen Knife Knowledge, or there are links in that forum to websites that provide such information.

And, again, there are nearly no universal answers to several of your questions, e.g. What is required to take care of a Japanese knife? What are the advantages/disadvantages of carbon and stainless steel? What to expect from a knife at the $100 - $200 level, the $300 - $400 level, $500 and up?

Of the top of my head, I can only think that whetstones are required to take care of a Japanese knife, and the only universal advantage/disadvantage of carbon vs. stainless is one stains, the other doesn't.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 02:32 PM
It might even be good to have a link that says "if you are a novice, then you should read this first" that links to a basic guide detailing costs and what you can get in each price band, differences in steels and maintenace, and the need for stones with suggestion of very basic entry set-ups etc.


Sorry, but that's not the purpose of this questionnaire from what I understand because that leads to the implication that if a knife doesn't have some characteristic at a certain price, it's a lesser knife; the converse is pointing out characteristics and/or knives right off the bat which is something that is necessarily opinion and, essentially, marketing.

rdpx
03-21-2013, 02:47 PM
Sorry, but that's not the purpose of this questionnaire from what I understand because that leads to the implication that if a knife doesn't have some characteristic at a certain price, it's a lesser knife; the converse is pointing out characteristics and/or knives right off the bat which is something that is necessarily opinion and, essentially, marketing.

Jay:

Most of these questions are addressed in Kitchen Knife Knowledge, or there are links in that forum to websites that provide such information.

And, again, there are nearly no universal answers to several of your questions, e.g. What is required to take care of a Japanese knife? What are the advantages/disadvantages of carbon and stainless steel? What to expect from a knife at the $100 - $200 level, the $300 - $400 level, $500 and up?

Of the top of my head, I can only think that whetstones are required to take care of a Japanese knife, and the only universal advantage/disadvantage of carbon vs. stainless is one stains, the other doesn't.

I am not sure it is the right approach to get too worried about depth of information at the questionnaire stage. Like when you learn French at school no-one is going to get upset about teaching the pluperfect subjunctive when the pupil can not say "Je m'apelle Robert". Basic intro is just that...e.g:

Regarding price:

Someone first coming here will probably be used to idea that they can pay maybe $100 for a top end german knife. It is easy to say that for $100 you can get a good entry level J-knife, but that the price rises to thousands, and that for $100-200 you can expect a knife with better steel/better F&F, again up to $500 the best steel, and past that crazy custom heirlooms. The idea is that this is a really basic guide for people who know nothing, and could show them that they can get a very good knife for $100, but also to try explain why other knives are more expensive.

Regarding maintenance:

Of course there is no universal answer, but it is not very controversial to say that learning to use whetstones [or having someone do it for you] is important with a knife, and not to put them in dishwasher, and to dry them, and that carbon will need different type of care to stainless.

As for you saying that pointing a novice to a basic guide is not the point of the questionnaire, I am at a loss there. The point of the Q is to help someone choose a knife. If we can point them to a very basic thing to read that will mean everyone doesn't have to keep saying "ah yes but what kind of chopping board do you have?" or "you have to spend $500 on stones" then I don't see why you would have an issue with that.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 03:18 PM
I am not sure it is the right approach to get too worried about depth of information at the questionnaire stage. Like when you learn French at school no-one is going to get upset about teaching the pluperfect subjunctive when the pupil can not say "Je m'apelle Robert". Basic intro is just that...e.g:

Regarding price:

Someone first coming here will probably be used to idea that they can pay maybe $100 for a top end german knife. It is easy to say that for $100 you can get a good entry level J-knife, but that the price rises to thousands, and that for $100-200 you can expect a knife with better steel/better F&F, again up to $500 the best steel, and past that crazy custom heirlooms. The idea is that this is a really basic guide for people who know nothing, and could show them that they can get a very good knife for $100, but also to try explain why other knives are more expensive.

Regarding maintenance:

Of course there is no universal answer, but it is not very controversial to say that learning to use whetstones [or having someone do it for you] is important with a knife, and not to put them in dishwasher, and to dry them, and that carbon will need different type of care to stainless.

As for you saying that pointing a novice to a basic guide is not the point of the questionnaire, I am at a loss there. The point of the Q is to help someone choose a knife. If we can point them to a very basic thing to read that will mean everyone doesn't have to keep saying "ah yes but what kind of chopping board do you have?" or "you have to spend $500 on stones" then I don't see why you would have an issue with that.



First, a questionnaire, is to gather information, not to present a guide. The members are to provide their own opinions as to knives that fit within the parameters of the answers to the questionnaire.

People also have budgets. If they want to go over it, that's up to the person filling out the questionnaire. But, that's why I'm thinking the "budget" should changed to "absolutely maximum budget" so people don't start recommending knives that $100 over the "absolute maximum budget."

Again, a "guide" to knives inherently includes opinion. And who's to say that a knife at $500 has better steel than a $200 knife? Who's to say that one steel is better than another? Some makers here are fantastic with the steels they use. But it's not necessarily a better steel for someone than another steel. What makes something "better steel"? Quality, hardness, toughness? What's "better" depends on opinion, use, and fit for the buyer.

As for the whetsone and cutting board questions, I'm working on them.

Please feel free to propose your own "guides" and put them up for comment and approval in a separate thread. Thank you.

jaybett
03-21-2013, 03:36 PM
Most people who use the questionnaire, are new to the forum. They fill out the form and then get follow up questions such as: Carbon or Stainless? Wa or Yo handle? Are you willing to learn to sharpen? What is your budget?

When I first came to the forums, I was surprised to learn that knives were still being made out of carbon. Why even consider a carbon knife?

First of all what is a Wa or Yo handle? How does a handle effect performance of a knife?

Most of the advice, in the food world, is don't sharpen your own knifes, you may ruin them, send them out to a pro. What is a new user to think, when they are asked that question?

It doesn't take long to realize that Japanese knifes are significantly more expensive then German ones. A new person wants a good knife, but they are not sure how much that is going to cost. I like Jon Broida's statement that the more expensive a knife is, the greater skills needed to take care of it.

Jay

El Pescador
03-21-2013, 03:49 PM
Some knives are shipped sharpened, others are not. A good question is "Do you have the ability to sharpen a new knife?"

rdpx
03-21-2013, 04:01 PM
Please feel free to propose your own "guides" and put them up for comment and approval in a separate thread. Thank you.

Oh. I am very sorry, I was under the impression that this thread was to discuss revisions to the questionnaire and had not realised that you did not actually wish to discuss things.


In the spirit of carrying on regardless though, as Jaybett points out, the follow up questions are usually pretty much the same.A basic introduction (I don't know why you keep putting "guide" in quote marks) would be useful.

I know that you are very concerned about opinions - whose you value, and whose you do not value - and what you consider often poor quality of advice given on this site, and being concerned about that is important when devising advice. It is however not beyond the wit of man for us to distil these "opinions" into a basic and uncontroversial guide that would benefit those who know very little indeed.

You may say this has nothing to do with the questionnaire, but I disagree. I think that the questionnaire is the entry point for most people looking to jump into J-knives, and so the ideal place to instil a small bit of basic knowledge.

Robert

mhlee
03-21-2013, 05:05 PM
Oh. I am very sorry, I was under the impression that this thread was to discuss revisions to the questionnaire and had not realised that you did not actually wish to discuss things.


In the spirit of carrying on regardless though, as Jaybett points out, the follow up questions are usually pretty much the same.A basic introduction (I don't know why you keep putting "guide" in quote marks) would be useful.

I know that you are very concerned about opinions - whose you value, and whose you do not value - and what you consider often poor quality of advice given on this site, and being concerned about that is important when devising advice. It is however not beyond the wit of man for us to distil these "opinions" into a basic and uncontroversial guide that would benefit those who know very little indeed.

You may say this has nothing to do with the questionnaire, but I disagree. I think that the questionnaire is the entry point for most people looking to jump into J-knives, and so the ideal place to instil a small bit of basic knowledge.

Robert

Since you've got such strong opinions about this, please feel free to do what you want with the questionnaire, what basic knowledge should be included and circulate it for comment.

Have at it.

rdpx
03-21-2013, 06:12 PM
Since you've got such strong opinions about this, please feel free to do what you want with the questionnaire, what basic knowledge should be included and circulate it for comment.

Have at it.

I have already circulated my suggestions, but thanks for the offer, Mike.

wenus2
03-21-2013, 07:14 PM
This sounds great Mike. It's long overdue and it sounds like you have it well in hand.
I agree the questionnaire should be about collecting info, not providing it. This also makes it more fluid as the opinions, tastes, and the industry itself are constantly evolving.

My biggest concern, outside of the always asked additional questions, would be phrasing the questions for new people to better answer them. A lot of the questions are answered inappropriately because people don't know what valid answers are, ie cutting motion.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 07:16 PM
I have already circulated my suggestions, but thanks for the offer, Mike.

Put your suggestions into a formal proposed questionnaire since you don't agree with what I'm doing.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 07:32 PM
This sounds great Mike. It's long overdue and it sounds like you have it well in hand.
I agree the questionnaire should be about collecting info, not providing it. This also makes it more fluid as the opinions, tastes, and the industry itself are constantly evolving.

My biggest concern, outside of the always asked additional questions, would be phrasing the questions for new people to better answer them. A lot of the questions are answered inappropriately because people don't know what valid answers are, ie cutting motion.

I think your "fluid" description is really appropriate.

I was thinking about how much more variety of knives we now have and how there are constantly new knives coming onto the market and what features they have when asked why we don't have something explaining what to expect of a knife at a certain price point. That alone makes it difficult to me to say what a knife should have at a certain price point. To use a car analogy, cars just a few years ago didn't have standard side curtain airbags. Now, nearly all do. Some features on knives weren't available at lower price points just a couple of years ago; now they are. This alone makes it very difficult to say that a knife in a certain price range should/or needs to have certain features. The standards are constantly changing.

And, I was giving serious thought to making the questions more user friendly and self-explanatory so we can get better answers. I completely agree with you.

rdpx
03-21-2013, 08:18 PM
Put your suggestions into a formal proposed questionnaire since you don't agree with what I'm doing.

If you read back over what I have actually said, Michael, you should be able to see that at no point have I said that I disagree with what you are doing. I actually said that I did agree with it, and made a suggestion as to how the questions could be ordered that might make sense.
What you seem to have taken against is my suggestion that it might be an idea to have a link in the introduction to the questionnaire that would point novices to something they could read that would make the whole questionnaire process more fluid and helpful for both the person seeking advice, and those giving it.
You don't agree with me, and that is fine, but it doesn't alter the fact that, as someone who came here very recently as a total novice, I still believe it would be helpful.

Please don't impute that I am doing anything other than trying to give some input.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 08:49 PM
You may say this has nothing to do with the questionnaire, but I disagree. I think that the questionnaire is the entry point for most people looking to jump into J-knives, and so the ideal place to instil a small bit of basic knowledge.

Robert

You don't disagree you say?

mhlee
03-21-2013, 08:51 PM
What you seem to have taken against is my suggestion that it might be an idea to have a link in the introduction to the questionnaire that would point novices to something they could read that would make the whole questionnaire process more fluid and helpful for both the person seeking advice, and those giving it.

If you feel like this is important, then do it. Please create something that "novices . . . could read to make the whole questionnaire process more fluid" and submit it to the moderators for approval.

Thanks.

rdpx
03-21-2013, 09:04 PM
You don't disagree you say?

For the love of God stop being so confrontational. I do not disagree with "what you are doing" but you were the one who is saying that what I suggested is wrong, and I do not agree .This is "not the same" as disagreeing with "what you are doing".

Is it really so wrong headed of me to suggest that it is possibly a good idea to have a short piece that will cover what 75% of the responses are going to be anyway?

Let's see what you come up with as an initial draft for the revised "questionnaire" and I will "comment" then. I am sure that everyone will "enjoy" that.

"Thanks"

Robert

stevenStefano
03-21-2013, 09:16 PM
If you feel like this is important, then do it. Please create something that "novices . . . could read to make the whole questionnaire process more fluid" and submit it to the moderators for approval.

Thanks.

So you create a post asking for suggestions for questions to be added to the questionnaire, then when someone suggests some you tell them to make their own post and create their own questionnaire?

mhlee
03-21-2013, 09:34 PM
So you create a post asking for suggestions for questions to be added to the questionnaire, then when someone suggests some you tell them to make their own post and create their own questionnaire?

Steven:

This is what Robert previously proposed.

"It might even be good to have a link that says "if you are a novice, then you should read this first" that links to a basic guide detailing costs and what you can get in each price band, differences in steels and maintenace, and the need for stones with suggestion of very basic entry set-ups etc."

Those are not questions. So, I invited Robert to make a thread that includes all of this.

What I've explained in my previous posts is that (1) this was not part of the original questionnaire, (2) by identifying "what you can get in each price band" necessarily includes/excludes certain knives, (3) there are no universal characteristics/differences in steel apart from chemical make up, among other things. I'm also not going to create anything that just proposes or recommends knives or other products. We have vendors here, and I'm extremely sensitive to the fact that by including a thread that essentially recommends certain products may upset any number of the vendors here. That's why I refuse to include it in the questionnaire and I've invited Robert to create this link or write up a number of times, which he, apparently, is unwilling to do.

Frankly, I've included a number of the proposed questions identified here, including some of Robert's comments, and reworded a number of the questions so that they're simpler (as Customfan noted) and less open to ridicule (as Kalaeb noted). I've even revised a number of questions so the answers are essentially in the questions and all the member needs to do is identify those answers in the question or answer "yes" or "no" or that they're somewhat leading so that if an answer is chosen, other members can direct that member to a more appropriate knife.

But, I'm not going to write this guide if it includes any type of recommendation whatsoever. That's why I'm leaving it up to him.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 09:36 PM
For the love of God stop being so confrontational. I do not disagree with "what you are doing" but you were the one who is saying that what I suggested is wrong, and I do not agree .This is "not the same" as disagreeing with "what you are doing".

Is it really so wrong headed of me to suggest that it is possibly a good idea to have a short piece that will cover what 75% of the responses are going to be anyway?

Let's see what you come up with as an initial draft for the revised "questionnaire" and I will "comment" then. I am sure that everyone will "enjoy" that.

"Thanks"

Robert

Confrontational? I've explained repeatedly why I won't create this "short piece" and invited you to do it. But, you continue to disagree with my refusal to include it or do it. Get off your butt and make this "short piece".

And, why don't you just wait until I'm done and you can criticize me as much as you want, then? Okay?

rdpx
03-21-2013, 09:43 PM
Why don't you just wait until I'm done and you can criticize me as much as you want, then? Okay?

Get off your butt and make this "short piece".

1. This is not about criticism, it is about a group effort to come up with a decent revised questionnaire. As Steven has pointed out, you started this thread asking for input. Don't throw your toys out of the pram just because I will not submit to your bullying dismissal of my input. From reading your reply to Steven it seems that you have also totally misinterpreted what I suggested. Also at no point have I said I am unwilling to do it, though you must be aware that I am probably not qualified to do it. Also your "invitations" to me have seemed patronising and sarcastic at best.

2. Do not tell me to "get off my butt". This is rude and offensive and you should not be talking to people like that, at your age.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 09:50 PM
1. This is not about criticism, it is about a group effort to come up with a decent revised questionnaire. As Steven has pointed out, you started this thread asking for input. Don't throw your toys out of the pram just because I will not submit to your bullying dismissal of my input.

2. Do not tell me to "get off my butt". This is rude and offensive and you should not be talking to people like that, at your age.

The "short piece" is not a questionnaire. I'm sorry that you don't understand what a questionnaire is.

Rude and offensive? Hilarious. This is coming from someone who accused me of acting in a manner that suggests that I "have no interest in getting along with people."

Benuser
03-21-2013, 09:54 PM
I wonder whether Michael's text was inspired by higher powers, as it seems to be unamendable.
Perhaps it's a better solution to take Eamon's original text as a point of departure. It might be useful to reread in the archive the discussions there were before it got its actual form. To give an example: the handle oiling question was meant, if I remember well and in my own words, to establish the degree of knife nutness.
I agree that the text can use some adjustments, and one, essential addition (are you left handed?).
I don't like a discussion where the search for a consensual, common text got lost.

rdpx
03-21-2013, 09:57 PM
The "short piece" is not a questionnaire. I'm sorry that you don't understand what a questionnaire is.

Rude and offensive? Hilarious. This is coming from someone who accused me of acting in a manner that suggests that I "have no interest in getting along with people."

Read back over your responses. You did not ask me to write a short piece, you told me to write my own version of what I thought the questionnaire should be. Only in the last post or two have you moved your goalposts and said you want me to write a "short piece" that could be linked to - e.g:


Put your suggestions into a formal proposed questionnaire since you don't agree with what I'm doing.


And yes, I found that rude and offensive, and seeing as how it was addressed to me, it should concern you that this is how your words are interpreted if that is not how you wished to be read. Of course if you think it is hilarious, then that would again suggest to me that you have no interest in getting along with people. A simple apology might have been appropriate there, for example.

You are being obtuse.

Robert

kalaeb
03-21-2013, 10:08 PM
I like you both, this is perhaps getting off topic, perhaps a continuation in PM?

rdpx
03-21-2013, 10:10 PM
I don't like a discussion where the search for a consensual, common text got lost.


I like you both, this is perhaps getting off topic...

Amen.

stevenStefano
03-21-2013, 10:13 PM
Perhaps it's a better solution to take Eamon's original text as a point of departure. It might be useful to reread in the archive the discussions there were before it got its actual form. To give an example: the handle oiling question was meant, if I remember well and in my own words, to establish the degree of knife nutness.


Yes I agree with this. What cutting motion do you use is another one. It isn't especially relevant, but it gives an idea if how knowledgeable the poster is. I think generally the original covers everything, there's a couple of questions I'd take out and add those suggested here, but I can't really think if anything that's missing, perhaps add a questions about if they had a choice, would they choose performance or looks? Quite a few new posters seem to have looks at the top of their priorities

chinacats
03-21-2013, 10:22 PM
I think one that may be fairly important that I haven't seen discussed is location. It seems that some people benefit greatly from JCK due to shipping costs.

SS, very good point about the importance of aesthetics.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 10:24 PM
Read back over your responses. You did not ask me to write a short piece, you told me to write my own version of what I thought the questionnaire should be. Only in the last post or two have you moved your goalposts and said you want me to write a "short piece" that could be linked to - e.g:




And yes, I found that rude and offensive, and seeing as how it was addressed to me, it should concern you that this is how your words are interpreted if that is not how you wished to be read. Of course if you think it is hilarious, then that would again suggest to me that you have no interest in getting along with people. A simple apology might have been appropriate there, for example.

You are being obtuse.

Robert

Robert:

I've looked back at these posts hundreds of times now to incorporate what everyone has posted. Yes, I asked you to prepare a questionnaire because you believed it should be in a different format, include recommendations, etc. That's why I invited you to revise the questionnaire. Yet, still, you have not agreed to do anything apart from criticize what I'm doing. And that's fine. You're entitled to do so.

But, if you're going to propose something that I've refused to do, because of my numerous reasons, then why don't you do it? That's why I repeatedly invited you do contribute a revised questionnaire, "short piece," or whatever you want.

In fact, I would have gladly turned this project over to you to finish, but, you refused. And, despite proposing this "short piece," you again conveniently avoid any commitment to preparing such a thing.

Please prepare whatever you want included with the questionnaire and post it here. Let the members decide if it's worthwhile.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 10:30 PM
I wonder whether Michael's text was inspired by higher powers, as it seems to be unamendable.
Perhaps it's a better solution to take Eamon's original text as a point of departure. It might be useful to reread in the archive the discussions there were before it got its actual form. To give an example: the handle oiling question was meant, if I remember well and in my own words, to establish the degree of knife nutness.
I agree that the text can use some adjustments, and one, essential addition (are you left handed?).
I don't like a discussion where the search for a consensual, common text got lost.

I'm using Eamon's original text as a start. I'm not trying to recreate the wheel.

And, I'm putting up the questionnaire up for public review. I never intended for this to be something that wasn't ultimately approved by enough members.

Frankly, if everyone hates it, I'm ok.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 10:30 PM
I think one that may be fairly important that I haven't seen discussed is location. It seems that some people benefit greatly from JCK due to shipping costs.

SS, very good point about the importance of aesthetics.

Good question. I completely forgot about this.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 10:36 PM
I think one that may be fairly important that I haven't seen discussed is location. It seems that some people benefit greatly from JCK due to shipping costs.

SS, very good point about the importance of aesthetics.

I agree that the aesthetic question is important. It's still in the questionnaire.

But, like Kalaeb pointed out previously, some questions can lead to ridicule. I'm trying to rework the questions so that the answers provided don't lead to something like that. The performance vs. looks is one of those questions. If someone says "looks", it'll likely not result in positive responses.

Can anyone think of how to rework the performance vs. looks into a non-offensive question?

chinacats
03-21-2013, 10:40 PM
I agree that the aesthetic question is important. It's still in the questionnaire.

But, like Kalaeb pointed out previously, some questions can lead to ridicule. I'm trying to rework the questions so that the answers provided don't lead to something like that. The performance vs. looks is one of those questions. If someone says "looks", it'll likely not result in positive responses.

Can anyone think of how to rework the performance vs. looks into a non-offensive question?

.
I think your thoughts about leading people in the right direction would apply here as well. 'How important is looks in your decision' or 'some knives value is related to aesthetics, is this something important to you'. It may help to narrow the choices offered if it comes across the right way.

rdpx
03-21-2013, 10:42 PM
Robert:

I've looked back at these posts hundreds of times now to incorporate what everyone has posted. Yes, I asked you to prepare a questionnaire because you believed it should be in a different format, include recommendations, etc. That's why I invited you to revise the questionnaire. Yet, still, you have not agreed to do anything apart from criticize what I'm doing. And that's fine. You're entitled to do so.

But, if you're going to propose something that I've refused to do, because of my numerous reasons, then why don't you do it? That's why I repeatedly invited you do contribute a revised questionnaire, "short piece," or whatever you want.

In fact, I would have gladly turned this project over to you to finish, but, you refused. And, despite proposing this "short piece," you again conveniently avoid any commitment to preparing such a thing.

Please prepare whatever you want included with the questionnaire and post it here. Let the members decide if it's worthwhile.

For the I do not know how manyth time, but lets be clear:


1. I was NOT proposing that the questionnaire be in a different format.

2. I was proposing that it might be an idea to have a LINK at the very top of the page, along the lines of "READ THIS FIRST IF YOU ARE A COMPLETE NOVICE IT MAY SAVE US ALL SOME TIME".

3. At no stage did I suggest that you write the linked piece.

4. At no stage did I suggest that specific knives should be recommended in this linked piece.

5. At no stage did I suggest that someone who was a complete novice such as myself should write this linked piece.

6. Eight other posters also suggested or expressed interest in such an article or articles before I mentioned it. This is approaching 50% of the members who have contributed to this thread.

7. I have NOT ONCE criticised what you are doing with the questionnaire.

8. You at no point offered to turn the project over to me to finish, so I could not have refused such an offer.

9. You continue to make sly digs at me - to whit "you have not agreed to do anything apart from criticize" & "you again convenietly avoid any commitment to preparing (sic) such a thing". I would be grateful if you would stop doing that, it is unbecoming.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 10:43 PM
What do people think about removing the "grip" question?

I ask this because most people use multiple grips and, in my experience and reading through numerous posts and threads, most people don't necessarily favor either a western or wa handle when it comes to using a pinch grip.

Benuser
03-21-2013, 10:43 PM
IFrankly, if everyone hates it, I'm ok.
iI would like to see a text discussion without such, frankly displaced terms as hate.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 10:44 PM
iI would like to see a text discussion without such, frankly displaced terms as hate.

Okay. "Seriously dislikes."

rdpx
03-21-2013, 10:55 PM
Can anyone think of how to rework the performance vs. looks into a non-offensive question?

I think phrasing it as "performance VS looks" is going to create issues. Why not just drop the performance bit from that. This aesthetics question can probably be dropped altogether as other questions could lead to answer that they want damascus, or a bling handle.

If someone wants a shiny damascus knife with a purple handle with castles in it then that's fine surely and the members will be able to help them find a good one. Is not spending $300 on a custom rehandle effectively all about looks?

Another issue with saying "yes aesthetics is important to me" is that they may MEAN that they want an orange handled knife that looks like an ice-skate, or they may want a damascus, or they may be envisaging a plain blade with black yo handle.

A question that could get there might be "Have you seen any knives [and what were they] that you really like the look of, or is this not an issue?". That way if they say "yes the guy fieri knuckle smasher" or "yes the shiny one with castles on" or "these brown handled damascus ones" we know where they are coming from and where they want to end up.

Drumjockey
03-21-2013, 10:55 PM
As a newb, my answer to the performance vs looks question would be "why can't I have both?" The idea being, that since I don't know what I want or what I'm doing, and I am trying to gain insight into this magical world of j-knives that i've just discovered (sorry this didn't happen so long ago for me, I'm still a little starry-eyed haha), that I really can't answer this question. I guess it would still give you all insight into how much knowledge the poster has- or doesnt. My guess is most people without the knowledge many of you have would answer the same as I when posed this question. I don't think the question is offensive, just that it may not actually give much pertinent additional info. One thing to also take into account is the fact that many newbs THINK they have a pretty good idea of cutlery and care (case in point, one Drumjockey) when they join and fill out the questionnaire but actually discover they know next to nothing after a few weeks reading posts

echerub
03-21-2013, 10:59 PM
How about specifically asking if the individual wants damascus cladding or if they want a patterned handle? Then they can respond either with a yes they want it, no they don't, or they don't care either way.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 11:02 PM
FWIW, I've spent some time thinking about how to rephrase the question. I couldn't come up with a good question.

If you ask, "Do you care about how a knife looks?", the answer will be, "Of course." Who wants what they perceive to be an ugly knife?

Here's how I've currently addressed this:

What improvements do you want from your current knife? Please identify all improvements that you would like this knife to have. (If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a rustic knife e.g., hammered finish, or darkened (kurouchi) blade; satin finish; mirror finish; nicer steel pattern (e.g., layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel); different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)

The answers are there in the question, which is something I've done for many of the questions.

Benuser
03-21-2013, 11:05 PM
What do people think about removing the "grip" question?

I ask this because most people use multiple grips and, in my experience and reading through numerous posts and threads, most people don't necessarily favor either a western or wa handle when it comes to using a pinch grip.
I do find it an essential question. Some novice users won't be aware of the grip they use. To pinch grippers, the balance point is important - or they will adjust. Hammer grippers will think it's about weight and not about balance.

rdpx
03-21-2013, 11:06 PM
FWIW, I've spent some time thinking about how to rephrase the question. I didn't come up with a good question.

You could just put this picture in and ask "what do you think of this one?":

http://japanesechefsknife.com/Gyuto180mm.jpg

Benuser
03-21-2013, 11:07 PM
Okay. "Seriously dislikes."
Terms do matter.

mhlee
03-21-2013, 11:12 PM
Terms do matter.

No doubt. Just adding a little levity.

Benuser
03-21-2013, 11:36 PM
No doubt. Just adding a little levity.
Levity?? "If everybody hates it", a little levity??

rdpx
03-21-2013, 11:39 PM
Levity?? "If everybody hates it", a little levity??

http://assets.bensoutlet.com/products/4387/product/FUR855-Main_4461_0_27209_0.jpg?1351867948

chinacats
03-21-2013, 11:43 PM
http://assets.bensoutlet.com/products/4387/product/FUR855-Main_4461_0_27209_0.jpg?1351867948

Now that's levity!

rdpx
03-21-2013, 11:46 PM
Now that's levity!

And everybody hates it!

daveb
03-21-2013, 11:51 PM
Would a question like:

Rank the following in terms of importance to knife selection:
A: Ease of Cutting
B: Ease of Sharpening
C: Edge Retention
D: Aesthetics

Expanded Comments? ___

capture the performance/aesthetics answer?

Chef Doom
03-24-2013, 06:06 AM
Why not just drop the aesthetics wording and cut it down to a simple question. Like "What kind of blade finish do you prefer? Kurouchi/Damascus/hammared/mirror/satin, etc".

Also, we should ask the folks at Korin and JKI what general questions they ask customers when they first come into their shops since they operate out of physical store fronts. I'm sure there will be some overlap and maybe even some missed questions. Even though this isn't a questionnaire directed towards sales, the end result is the same. Everyone is looking for that best friend in the kitchen.

And I hate to disagree with you Mr. Lee, but there are some things you can discern based on price points. Don't expect to find a Mizu-Honyaki for $200 for example. A $100 dollar knife probably won't have an engraved kanji. A $500 dollar knife will bring a lot of disappointment because it doesn't come with a pack of beer and a massage. Although I think they should, but they don't.

Chef Doom
03-24-2013, 06:12 AM
Also, I've never seen a suggestion or purchasing decision based on the type of grip.

Also, this is an age of waste and disposable goods. When we have re-handling and stabilized wood options, what the heck does oiling your handle have to do with anything?

Dave Martell
03-24-2013, 12:40 PM
This sounds great Mike. It's long overdue and it sounds like you have it well in hand.
I agree the questionnaire should be about collecting info, not providing it. This also makes it more fluid as the opinions, tastes, and the industry itself are constantly evolving.




I agree here.

Dave Martell
03-24-2013, 01:04 PM
I've just read through this post and I'm not liking what I'm seeing and I see no reason why this thread has to go the way it has.

When Eamon undertook this venture originally I'm sure that he realized that eventually it would need modifying and the time has come. I feel that we can get this done without the conversation turning personal.

I'm not taking sides here but I will say that if I had to pick someone to write a questionnaire I'd probably look to Michael for input which means that I believe in his ability to come up with a final product that we can use as a revision to kick off a new questionnaire. Let's give him some support here and I'm sure we'll be better for it.

After all, what becomes the final questionnaire doesn't have to remain final either....it will always be evolving just as Eamon's original is now being upgraded.

SpikeC
03-24-2013, 06:06 PM
Thanks Dave, I was getting a bit bothered by the tone of this convo.

jaybett
03-24-2013, 11:36 PM
There was a call for opinions on how to improve the "What knife to buy questionnaire ?" When opinions were offered, they were criticized. The thread was primed to go south.

If anything can be gained from this thread, it was the example shown by Rdpx, on how to express an opinion without being negative.

Jay

Benuser
03-25-2013, 12:03 AM
There was a call for opinions on how to improve the "What knife to buy questionnaire ?" When opinions were offered, they were criticized. The thread was primed to go south.

If anything can be gained from this thread, it was the example shown by Rdpx, on how to express an opinion without being negative.

Jay

Exactly.

mhlee
03-25-2013, 12:25 AM
There was a call for opinions on how to improve the "What knife to buy questionnaire ?" When opinions were offered, they were criticized. The thread was primed to go south.

If anything can be gained from this thread, it was the example shown by Rdpx, on how to express an opinion without being negative.

Jay

Jay:

If you look back at what Robert (rdpx) proposed, that you agreed with, was essentially a primer or teaching guide. They were not just opinions on how to improve the questionnaire, they would fundamentally change what the structure of the Questionnaire would be, as well as require additional threads, documents or links to be produced and created.

Frankly, they weren't criticized at first; I simply did not accept them and refused to include them in the Questionnaire, which I explained in detail; I refused to do them for the numerous reasons stated in the thread. But, apparently, my refusal to do what was asked, which, again, would fundamentally change what the Questionnaire would be, was "criticizing" the opinions.

Frankly, if you look back at rdpx's response, his response was sarcastic and critical of my responses. Prior to his, "Oh. I am very sorry, I was under the impression that this thread was to discuss revisions to the questionnaire and had not realised that you did not actually wish to discuss things", I was not rude to him in any way or manner. I simply did not agree with what he proposed. And I stand by my position.

And, the primer/teaching guide, whatever you want to call it, would have to be created by someone. Based on your and Robert's tone, it's pretty clear you wanted me to do it and include it in the Questionnaire. FWIW, I spent the better part of a day revising and revising the Questionnaire. And, of course, I did not get any kind of compensatory benefit from doing it; I still pay my membership just like other paid members.

Just because I took this project on doesn't mean I have to do exactly what is asked of me by other members. Of course, neither you nor Robert ever offered to actually create the primer or guide.

And, considering that other people have not universally supported your position, I don't think it's fair to say that what he and you propose is something that's universally wanted in the Questionnaire. Your opinions do not matter any more than the opinions of others.

And that's why I repeatedly invited him to do what he proposed. And, I'm inviting you to do the same. If you want to do what you propose, please feel free to do it on your own and propose it to the forum for review by the members and let others, including me, review your proposals and offer their (and my) opinions about your proposal.

I look forward to what you come up with.

mhlee
03-25-2013, 12:29 AM
Exactly.

I invite you to do the same. Please feel free to create something that you would like included in the Questionnaire, whether it's a separate link, page, explanation, etc. and post it for review and approval by the members.

I look forward to what you come up with.

mzer
03-25-2013, 12:38 AM
I think I was the last guy to use the old questionnaire and therefore the one who started all of this. IMO, if you are looking to help people who are just getting interested in knives, whether they are experienced cooks or not, you have to ask general questions and not start in with what a knowledgeable person would know. Half of the questions on the basic questionnaire are head scratchers for me. You need to be interested in knives before you can answer detailed questions, but you will never interest people without talking them into that stage. Again, my thoughts.

chinacats
03-25-2013, 12:48 AM
I think I was the last guy to use the old questionnaire and therefore the one who started all of this. IMO, if you are looking to help people who are just getting interested in knives, whether they are experienced cooks or not, you have to ask general questions and not start in with what a knowledgeable person would know. Half of the questions on the basic questionnaire are head scratchers for me. You need to be interested in knives before you can answer detailed questions, but you will never interest people without talking them into that stage. Again, my thoughts.

Just curious about the newer users perspective and it may be helpful here; which questions were the most confusing?

Also I think it is important to realize that by the time people are here asking for opinions that they have some level of interest already; whether or not they can answer the questions (as well as the answers they give) can also be helpful to determine which knives they should choose.

Cheers

mzer
03-25-2013, 01:01 AM
Just curious about the newer users perspective and it may be helpful here; which questions were the most confusing?

Also I think it is important to realize that by the time people are here asking for opinions that they have some level of interest already; whether or not they can answer the questions (as well as the answers they give) can also be helpful to determine which knives they should choose.

Cheers

What type of knife(s) do you think you want? This makes perfect sense.

Why is it being purchased? What, if anything, are you replacing? Good.

What do you like and dislike about these qualities of your knives already?
Aesthetics-
Edge Quality/Retention-
Ease of Use-
Comfort-

Taken as a group, these questions are good, but they are better the more knives you have used and the more you have played around.

What grip do you use? This is probably an important question, but it also requires the correct lingo to answer.

What kind of cutting motion do you use? I don't even really know what this means. I mean, I do now that I have looked around the site for a week or two, but it isn't particularly clear, and it seems like the fruits of an internecine conflict over the right way to do things. Not sure it is a useful question for a new user.

Where do you store them? This is important. It probably is the best guide to how serious somebody is.

Have you ever oiled a handle? This is silly.

What kind of cutting board(s) do you use? Similar to storage question, but doesn't say what knife somebody should use, rather which knives you should not suggest to the questioner out of fear of killing something great.

For edge maintenance, do you use a strop, honing rod, pull through/other, or nothing? Too technical. Ask now somebody keeps their knife sharp.

Have they ever been sharpened? Good question. Self explanatory.

What is your budget? Good question but hard to conjure out of thin air. Maybe give common price ranges and what the jumps tend to mean.

What do you cook and how often? Not sure this is important other than to get an idea of the person.

Special requests(Country of origin/type of wood/etc)? No idea what this means.

Hope that helps!

chinacats
03-25-2013, 02:35 AM
Nice, I think at least one of these (cutting motion) will be linked to something helpful--maybe something as simple as a video? I think Micheal's new form also offers multiple choices on a few of the ?'s which should also be helpful. Maybe take a stab at the new form and see if you think it is more helpful/useful? I do think that an important aspect of this is that it is useful for those with some/a lot of experience as well as those with very little.

Cheers

jaybett
03-25-2013, 04:33 AM
Jay:

If you look back at what Robert (rdpx) proposed, that you agreed with, was essentially a primer or teaching guide. They were not just opinions on how to improve the questionnaire, they would fundamentally change what the structure of the Questionnaire would be, as well as require additional threads, documents or links to be produced and created.

Frankly, they weren't criticized at first; I simply did not accept them and refused to include them in the Questionnaire, which I explained in detail; I refused to do them for the numerous reasons stated in the thread. But, apparently, my refusal to do what was asked, which, again, would fundamentally change what the Questionnaire would be, was "criticizing" the opinions.

Frankly, if you look back at rdpx's response, his response was sarcastic and critical of my responses. Prior to his, "Oh. I am very sorry, I was under the impression that this thread was to discuss revisions to the questionnaire and had not realised that you did not actually wish to discuss things", I was not rude to him in any way or manner. I simply did not agree with what he proposed. And I stand by my position.

And, the primer/teaching guide, whatever you want to call it, would have to be created by someone. Based on your and Robert's tone, it's pretty clear you wanted me to do it and include it in the Questionnaire. FWIW, I spent the better part of a day revising and revising the Questionnaire. And, of course, I did not get any kind of compensatory benefit from doing it; I still pay my membership just like other paid members.

Just because I took this project on doesn't mean I have to do exactly what is asked of me by other members. Of course, neither you nor Robert ever offered to actually create the primer or guide.

And, considering that other people have not universally supported your position, I don't think it's fair to say that what he and you propose is something that's universally wanted in the Questionnaire. Your opinions do not matter any more than the opinions of others.

And that's why I repeatedly invited him to do what he proposed. And, I'm inviting you to do the same. If you want to do what you propose, please feel free to do it on your own and propose it to the forum for review by the members and let others, including me, review your proposals and offer their (and my) opinions about your proposal.

I look forward to what you come up with.

Michael,

I thought the questionnaire was long over due for a revision. I like the work you have done on the revision.

There seems to a disconnect, when suggestions were offered you've had a strong reaction to them. Unless
Posts were deleted or you got a pm, your reactions have been unusual. This is probably a situation
where a face to face would clear up any misunderstandings.

I've reread the posts two or three times, in case I was missing something. And I still might be, but I
didn't see anything out of line with Robert's posts. I admired the way he was able to stay on point
without getting negative.

Jay

rdpx
03-25-2013, 07:32 AM
Prior to his, "Oh. I am very sorry, I was under the impression that this thread was to discuss revisions to the questionnaire and had not realised that you did not actually wish to discuss things", I was not rude to him in any way or manner...


What we should take from this is the implicit admission that Michael was rude to me after this point in the thread, which is reassuring, as I had wondered whether I was being too sensitive.

Your reply above continues to be full of misrepresentations of what I have said in this thread, and also more wildly inaccurate and offensive imputations of my thought processes. You also seem to confuse the order in which things happened. I really wish that you would desist as it is becoming quite disturbing to me to read what you say about me. I had backed away from this and had even tried to change the subject with the furi knife and thought that you had done the same.

Please stop this Michael, I can't really put it any more simply than that. I don't care enough about it to endure reading your awful accusations about what I am supposed to have thought or said or how petty I am supposed to be.

rdpx
03-25-2013, 09:05 AM
What we should take from this..

I am too late to edit it myself, but can we agree to disregard my above reply?

I like this forum - it has been surprisingly fun, and is a great place to whitter on about knives and for me to do some imaginary shopping. I have no reason to have anything against anyone who posts here, the thread got out of hand. As suggested above, in a face to face situation it probably would not have happened like this.

Michael, please accept my apologies for anything I have said that might have upset you, it was not intentional and I was only interested in helping to make something that was going to be useful to members new and old. I am sorry if my intentions were not clear.

Apologies also to all who had to read this. In future I shall try to remain aloof.

rdp.

mzer
03-25-2013, 10:35 AM
Nice, I think at least one of these (cutting motion) will be linked to something helpful--maybe something as simple as a video? I think Micheal's new form also offers multiple choices on a few of the ?'s which should also be helpful. Maybe take a stab at the new form and see if you think it is more helpful/useful? I do think that an important aspect of this is that it is useful for those with some/a lot of experience as well as those with very little.

Cheers


It's much improved. The vague questions are fleshed out with possible answers. I think the same could be done with the max price question, to give ranges and explanations. I still think the grip style and cutting style questions are a bit inside baseball, but reading more they seem like they are part of the forum culture, so it makes sense to keep them. I just don't know that it is possible to cut in a way that is not some hybrid of everything, and to grip in a way that is not influenced by what you are gripping. Still, big positives.

mhlee
03-25-2013, 10:45 AM
What we should take from this is the implicit admission that Michael was rude to me after this point in the thread, which is reassuring, as I had wondered whether I was being too sensitive.

Your reply above continues to be full of misrepresentations of what I have said in this thread, and also more wildly inaccurate and offensive imputations of my thought processes. You also seem to confuse the order in which things happened. I really wish that you would desist as it is becoming quite disturbing to me to read what you say about me. I had backed away from this and had even tried to change the subject with the furi knife and thought that you had done the same.

Please stop this Michael, I can't really put it any more simply than that. I don't care enough about it to endure reading your awful accusations about what I am supposed to have thought or said or how petty I am supposed to be.

You're always the first one to point the finger at someone else, aren't you Robert? That's a quote from your post. There is no accusation; that quote is fact. Unless you want to claim that some knife forum gremlin typed that, it's quite clear who was rude. And you've never taken responsibility for being the one who started with the accusations or negative tone.

Benuser
03-25-2013, 11:02 AM
Robert wrote about that same text:
I am too late to edit it
myself, but can we agree to
disregard my above reply?

After that, I find Michael's reaction far from productive.

Can you close this file??

chinacats
03-25-2013, 11:02 AM
I am too late to edit it myself, but can we agree to disregard my above reply?

I like this forum - it has been surprisingly fun, and is a great place to whitter on about knives and for me to do some imaginary shopping. I have no reason to have anything against anyone who posts here, the thread got out of hand. As suggested above, in a face to face situation it probably would not have happened like this.

Michael, please accept my apologies for anything I have said that might have upset you, it was not intentional and I was only interested in helping to make something that was going to be useful to members new and old. I am sorry if my intentions were not clear.

Apologies also to all who had to read this. In future I shall try to remain aloof.

rdp.


I thought this was a nice way to end this 'disagreement', no?

rdpx
03-25-2013, 11:06 AM
I thought this was a nice way to end this 'disagreement', no?

Yep me too, sorry KKF.
I have tried and I have failed.

And again, Michael, I am sorry. My reply to you telling me to start my own thread was sarcastic. It is the lowest form of wit.


http://youtu.be/C5rJ4g9EMUk

Dave Martell
03-25-2013, 01:08 PM
OK.....either this thread gets healed quickly or it's getting shut down. We don't have to agree or even like each other but we will not continue down the current path.

Let's get this back on topic...

Chef Doom
03-26-2013, 05:53 PM
Do we have to heal things Dave? Really???? I got a couple comments to say. Wait a minute.....you just handed over the keys recently. You have no power over me. Muahahahahaha :happymug: