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View Full Version : Time for a new gyuto



matt_g
04-02-2013, 12:14 AM
Hey guys, need help choosing a new workhorse gyuto for work. Prefer carbon to stainless


What type of knife(s) do you think you want?
gyuto 240 or 210

Why is it being purchased? What, if anything, are you replacing?
replacing a shun classic 210

What do you like and dislike about these qualities of your knives already?
Aesthetics-
Edge Quality/Retention- this is a primary concern, feel the shun is lacking in quality and definatly retention of the edge.
Ease of Use-
Comfort-

What grip do you use?
pinch

What kind of cutting motion do you use?
push/pull but occasional chopping for herbs

Where do you store them?
saya's in an ultimate edge bag

Have you ever oiled a handle?
yes

What kind of cutting board(s) do you use?
Boo's wood


For edge maintenance, do you use a strop, honing rod, pull through/other, or nothing?
Depends on the knife, ceramic rod or strop

Have they ever been sharpened?
yes

What is your budget?
400$

What do you cook and how often?
work in a busy italian restaurant and cook often at home

Hey guys sorry for the repost


LOCATION
What country are you in? Canada (toronto)

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in? cabon 210mm gyuto (very cramped line, 240 will probably be too large)

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese (wa) handle? Wa

What length of knife are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 210mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no.) No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife (i.e., “I’m not spending one more euro/pence/penny/peso/yen more than this”)? 500$

KNIFE USE
Where do you primarily intend to use this knife? Work

At home or a professional environment? Professional, busy kitchen, italian food.

How often? 6 days a week, 3-4 hours of prep daily

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for? veg and herbs

What knife, if anything, are you replacing? Shun classic 210mm and moritaka 210 mm blue

Is your primary grip when you hold your knife a “pinch” grip
? Pinch grip
What cutting motions do you primarily use? push pull but ocassional choppingfor herbs and garlic

What improvements do you want from your current knife? Both knives im replacing lack edge quality and retention. I need something that is capable of getting really sharp and staying sharp longer than what i currently use.

Better aesthetics dont care really

Comfort since the amount of work it wll get it would be nice if it was light–
Ease of Use would like something easy to sharpen and less wedging would be awesome
Edge Retention right now the moritaka can get pretty sharp but it wont last more than a shift, so anything better than that would be awesome

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Is it very important that your knife require only minimal daily maintenance? daily maintenance doesnt bother me, usually can squeeze in a touch up on a natural stone after work.

Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber (e.g., Sani-Tuff) or synthetic cutting board boos wood cutting boad
Do you sharpen your knives on your own using any type of whetstone? yes chosera 500,1k,3k,5k, and a few natural stones

If “yes,” are you looking to purchase more specific products for this knife? no?

If “no,” will you have your knives professionally sharpened? no i do



SPECIAL REQUESTS
Country of origin –
Other –

K-Fed
04-02-2013, 11:18 AM
With a budget of ~400 you're getting pretty close to a custom from one of the up n' coming makers on this forum. That is the route that I would personally go. But for much less there are many good carbon steel gyuto options out there. Do you prefer western or wa handles?

matt_g
04-02-2013, 12:41 PM
Any specific customs? I prefer wa but its not set in stone

mhlee
04-02-2013, 12:42 PM
I know that you've provided information to a number of these questions, but would you mind completing this revised Questionnaire?

We've been working on this for a little while now and may help refine what recommendations the members will be able to give you. And, if you wouldn't mind providing a little feedback on your experience with this Questionnaire, it would be greatly appreciated.

----------

LOCATION
What country are you in?
KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in? E.g., Chef’s Knife (or Gyuto), Slicer (or Sujihiki), Boning Knife, Utility Knife (or Petty), Bread Knife, Paring Knife, Yanagiba, Deba, Usuba, Meat Cleaver, Vegetable Cleaver?
Are you right or left handed?
Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese (wa) handle?
What length of knife are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no.)
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife (i.e., “I’m not spending one more euro/pence/penny/peso/yen more than this”)?
KNIFE USE
Where do you primarily intend to use this knife?

At home or a professional environment? (Please feel free to specify what type of work environment, e.g., catering, restaurant, butchery, seafood.)
How often? (Please feel free to specify how many hours a day, and days per week.)

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
What knife, if anything, are you replacing?
Is your primary grip when you hold your knife a “pinch” grip (i.e., holding the knife in front of the handle with your thumb and index finger on opposite sides of the knife)? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) (Yes or no.)
What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used, e.g., rock chop, rock mince, push cut, pull cut.)
What improvements do you want from your current knife? Please identify all improvements that you would like this knife to have. (If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a rustic knife – e.g., hammered finish, or darkened (kurouchi) blade; satin finish; mirror finish; nicer steel pattern (e.g., layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel); different handle color/pattern/ shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance) –
Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material (e.g., nicer type of wood or synthetic material); better handle shape (e.g., shorter or taller height, thicker or thinner, shorter or longer length); rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance (i.e., please identify how you like the knife to be balanced, whether toward the blade, in front of the handle, or toward the handle) –
Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen) –
Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening based on your expected use above) –

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Is it very important that your knife require only minimal daily maintenance? (i.e., only need to wash and dry after use, occasional sharpening) (Yes or no.)
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber (e.g., Sani-Tuff) or synthetic cutting board (e.g., any type of plastic, Hi-Soft, etc.)? (Yes or no.)
Do you sharpen your knives on your own using any type of whetstone? (Yes or no.)

If “yes,” are you looking to purchase more specific products for this knife? (Yes or no.)

If “no,” will you have your knives professionally sharpened? (Yes or no.)
If “no,” are you interested in learning how to sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
If “yes” to the question immediately above, what is the absolute maximum amount of money you would be willing to put toward sharpening products?

SPECIAL REQUESTS
Country of origin –
Other –

Gravy Power
04-02-2013, 12:43 PM
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/kochi/kochi-240mm-migaki-wa-gyuto.html#

Notice it's currently out of stock, but Jon expects more within the next month. I know cause I'm on the list :doublethumbsup:

jazzybadger
04-02-2013, 03:12 PM
I know that you've provided information to a number of these questions, but would you mind completing this revised Questionnaire?

We've been working on this for a little while now and may help refine what recommendations the members will be able to give you. And, if you wouldn't mind providing a little feedback on your experience with this Questionnaire, it would be greatly appreciated.

----------

LOCATION
What country are you in?
KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in? E.g., Chef’s Knife (or Gyuto), Slicer (or Sujihiki), Boning Knife, Utility Knife (or Petty), Bread Knife, Paring Knife, Yanagiba, Deba, Usuba, Meat Cleaver, Vegetable Cleaver?
Are you right or left handed?
Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese (wa) handle?
What length of knife are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no.)
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife (i.e., “I’m not spending one more euro/pence/penny/peso/yen more than this”)?
KNIFE USE
Where do you primarily intend to use this knife?

At home or a professional environment? (Please feel free to specify what type of work environment, e.g., catering, restaurant, butchery, seafood.)
How often? (Please feel free to specify how many hours a day, and days per week.)

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
What knife, if anything, are you replacing?
Is your primary grip when you hold your knife a “pinch” grip (i.e., holding the knife in front of the handle with your thumb and index finger on opposite sides of the knife)? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) (Yes or no.)
What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used, e.g., rock chop, rock mince, push cut, pull cut.)
What improvements do you want from your current knife? Please identify all improvements that you would like this knife to have. (If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a rustic knife – e.g., hammered finish, or darkened (kurouchi) blade; satin finish; mirror finish; nicer steel pattern (e.g., layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel); different handle color/pattern/ shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance) –
Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material (e.g., nicer type of wood or synthetic material); better handle shape (e.g., shorter or taller height, thicker or thinner, shorter or longer length); rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance (i.e., please identify how you like the knife to be balanced, whether toward the blade, in front of the handle, or toward the handle) –
Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen) –
Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening based on your expected use above) –

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Is it very important that your knife require only minimal daily maintenance? (i.e., only need to wash and dry after use, occasional sharpening) (Yes or no.)
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber (e.g., Sani-Tuff) or synthetic cutting board (e.g., any type of plastic, Hi-Soft, etc.)? (Yes or no.)
Do you sharpen your knives on your own using any type of whetstone? (Yes or no.)

If “yes,” are you looking to purchase more specific products for this knife? (Yes or no.)

If “no,” will you have your knives professionally sharpened? (Yes or no.)
If “no,” are you interested in learning how to sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
If “yes” to the question immediately above, what is the absolute maximum amount of money you would be willing to put toward sharpening products?

SPECIAL REQUESTS
Country of origin –
Other –

Well I can say this much, I like this questionnaire a whole lot more than the original one. I'm not the least bit knife savvy (yet) but I really like the additional questions. Seems much more detailed and better equipped to hone in one the perfect knife for one's needs.

Benuser
04-02-2013, 04:27 PM
I wasn't aware the new questionnaire had already been adopted.

mhlee
04-02-2013, 04:44 PM
I wasn't aware the new questionnaire had already been adopted.

It hasn't. As you can clearly see, it's not a sticky. I just asked that it be used and to get feedback from the user.

Do you have a problem with me asking that it be used?

Benuser
04-02-2013, 04:58 PM
It's not very elegant towards those involved in the discussion that's still going on.

bieniek
04-02-2013, 05:33 PM
With a budget of ~400 you're getting pretty close to a custom from one of the up n' coming makers on this forum. That is the route that I would personally go. But for much less there are many good carbon steel gyuto options out there. Do you prefer western or wa handles?

How close is pretty close?
Need 100-200 more?


OP, you want a workhorse and carbon? in the up to 300 bucks range is all you need.

Jim
04-02-2013, 06:14 PM
I wasn't aware the new questionnaire had already been adopted.


It's not very elegant towards those involved in the discussion that's still going on.


It hasn't. As you can clearly see, it's not a sticky. I just asked that it be used and to get feedback from the user.

Do you have a problem with me asking that it be used?

If the goal here is to assist a new member with his knife purchase than these additional questions should be helpful & welcome. There is a thread already specifically about the questions and tuning it up, so lets keep comments about the questionnaire there, ok.

JohnnyChance
04-02-2013, 06:29 PM
Gengetsu 240mm (semi) stainless gyuto from Jon @ JKI. In budget, great great cutter, comes with saya, great edge retention, workhorse build.

mhlee
04-02-2013, 06:32 PM
Gengetsu 240mm (semi) stainless gyuto from Jon @ JKI. In budget, great great cutter, comes with saya, great edge retention, workhorse build.

Unfortunately, it's out of stock.

JohnnyChance
04-02-2013, 06:36 PM
Currently, yes. Jon will get more. And it will be in stock faster than a custom is made which was also suggested.

Mike9
04-02-2013, 06:38 PM
You are in Canada - get a Rodrigue mid-tech - have money left over. :cool2:

mhlee
04-02-2013, 06:41 PM
Currently, yes. Jon will get more. And it will be in stock faster than a custom is made which was also suggested.

That's true. I just didn't want to give the impression that it will be in stock in the very immediate future.

franzb69
04-03-2013, 12:28 AM
i'm with mike9

matt_g
04-03-2013, 01:09 AM
Hey guys sorry i did the updated version it's in the original post


You are in Canada - get a Rodrigue mid-tech - have money left over. :cool2:

They look pretty good, how do they perform? i've never heard of that steel before.

chinacats
04-03-2013, 01:10 AM
I'll second the Kochi though I would likely choose the V2 kurouchi. About time for Jon to restock!

Cheers!

don
04-03-2013, 01:30 AM
Choice 1: Get on the wait list for Marko Tsourkan's gyuto. Light weight without feeling delicate, thin behind the edge so it doesn't wedge, tested and tuned for a professional kitchen so has solid edge retention, limited reactivity. Only downside is wait time. I have a practice gyuto, and if I need to prep more than one onion, this is my go to knife. It feels great though veggies and when it contacts the board.

Choice 2: Pierre Rodrigue's mid tech. Based on the reviews, this should be a really nice knife. Thin and lightweight, should be fun through veggies. Can't wait for mine to arrive.

Choice 3: Sakai Yusuke white steel 210mm. Also a thin lightweight knife, and a really good deal with its fit and finish and cutting ability. One review noted that it had limited reactivity, which is nice. Has a little more belly than the above choices, which might be desirable given herbs chopping requirement. I have a 240mm stainless extra harden and used the extra thin too. A 210mm white with a custom mhenry handle is calling my name though. That would be in your budget too.

mhlee
04-03-2013, 02:19 AM
I would recommend a Gesshin Ginga 210 Carbon Steel http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/gesshin-ginga/gesshin-ginga-210mm-white-2-wa-gyuto.html or a Gengetsu http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/gengetsu/gengetsu-210mm-stainless-wa-gyuto.html

I have the 240 Ginga. While the edge does not last nearly as long as Mario CPM 154 gyuto that I had, it certainly wedges a lot less. It's thin knife (but does not flex) that's very thin behind the edge, so, even when it's not very sharp, it still cuts very well. It has excellent balance in the hand, and very light. It's also only slightly reactive.

I've used a Gengetsu and it's a sturdier knife, but still does not wedge much at all, very solid in the hand, gets sharp and has very good edge retention based on my limited experience with it.

Do you want a stiff knife? Or, are you okay with some flex in the blade?

cclin
04-03-2013, 05:06 AM
if I were you, I'll take Gengetsu Semi Stainless 210mm Gyuto (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/11455-F-S-Gengetsu-Takeda-Pierre-Del)at B/S/T while it still available!!:shocked3:and think no more!!

matt_g
04-03-2013, 09:33 AM
Yeah some flex isn't a big issue

toddnmd
04-03-2013, 09:51 AM
if I were you, I'll take Gengetsu Semi Stainless 210mm Gyuto (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/11455-F-S-Gengetsu-Takeda-Pierre-Del)at B/S/T while it still available!!:shocked3:and think no more!!

Does buying a new knife means one stops thinking about other new ones? I always think it will, but it never seems to work that way!

toddnmd
04-03-2013, 10:02 AM
The OP's original request was for carbon--some of the above recommendations (even if they are great knives) don't seem to meet that requirement. (I tend to think of semi-stainless as more stainless than carbon, but it may depend on the steel.) He also stated that edge retention is crucial. I would think the Moritake in Blue would have pretty good edge retention. I'll leave it to others to recommend something that would be better.

mhlee
04-03-2013, 12:41 PM
Although the only "semi-stainless" knives I currently own are a CarboNext and a TKC, these two knives (supposedly the same steel) tend to lean more toward carbon than the stainless knives I've owned (Mario CPM154 Gyuto, Global, Sakai Takayuki, Richmond Fanatic) - the feel, sharpness, edge retention are closer to carbon in general than stainless. I will say that the Mario CPM154 I had had very, very good edge retention, but, again, it's not a carbon knife.

Also, as we've covered here in other threads, Moritakas are not consistently made. Nonetheless, the OP's lack of edge retention with his Moritaka could be a result of a number of things.

Although I've not used one, several people I've communicated with here really love their Heiji knives. It's a little more than the OP's price range, but not by much.

matt_g
04-03-2013, 12:52 PM
What do you guys think of the kono white 2's? I went to the local store today and they had a 240 that looked really good. They are also getting in yoshikane sld's in the next few weeks what are those like?

Rottman
04-03-2013, 01:02 PM
White is not the king of edge retention (blue is generally better in that regard, but the Kono whites are very nice knives). Can't say anything about the Yoshikanes.

JohnnyChance
04-03-2013, 01:48 PM
The OP's original request was for carbon--some of the above recommendations (even if they are great knives) don't seem to meet that requirement. (I tend to think of semi-stainless as more stainless than carbon, but it may depend on the steel.) He also stated that edge retention is crucial. I would think the Moritake in Blue would have pretty good edge retention. I'll leave it to others to recommend something that would be better.

I think of semi stainless more like carbon than stainless. As in it tends to sharpen like a carbon knife and takes an edge like one. And Moritakas are a whole other can of worms.


What do you guys think of the kono white 2's? I went to the local store today and they had a 240 that looked really good. They are also getting in yoshikane sld's in the next few weeks what are those like?

White #2 isn't going to knock your socks off in the edge retention department. If you like the Kono an HD series would suit you better most likely.

cclin
04-03-2013, 02:04 PM
if you want better edge retention steel, you should looking for white#1, blue#1, blue supe & SLD(semi-steel); however, in exchange for more brittle & less tough edge than white#2 & Blue#2

labor of love
04-03-2013, 02:21 PM
Wait, white #1 has good edge retention? Any knives in particular youre referring to here? I've never heard this before.

cclin
04-03-2013, 02:35 PM
Wait, white #1 has good edge retention? Any knives in particular youre referring to here? I've never heard this before.
white#1= best edge retention for wite steel

white#3: thoughness+/edge retention(hardness)- <<less carbon<< white#2 >>added Carbon>> whate#1: edge retention(hardness)+ /thoughness-

labor of love
04-03-2013, 02:58 PM
okay, i see what youre saying. white 1 has a higher carbon content.

JohnnyChance
04-03-2013, 03:28 PM
Wait, white #1 has good edge retention? Any knives in particular youre referring to here? I've never heard this before.

It's no A-Type steel, or A2, or SKD, or 52100, or just about anything Devin heat treats (to name a few). But it's better than White #2!

bieniek
04-03-2013, 03:31 PM
It's no A-Type steel, or A2, or SKD, or 52100, or just about anything Devin heat treats (to name a few). But it's better than White #2!

I think you should try the Gesshin Ittetsu. Just saying.

Jbone
04-03-2013, 03:33 PM
i live in the gta too, another good option would be to go to Knife or Tosho. both are good local shops and the owners are both very knowledgeable about the knies they sell and you can hold them and get a feel for what you like

knife is at queen and bathurst and tosho is at bloor and bathurst across the street from honest eds

JohnnyChance
04-03-2013, 04:13 PM
I think you should try the Gesshin Ittetsu. Just saying.

Gladly. Send it over. Which of the ones I listed have you tried or would like to?