PDA

View Full Version : Is it me, or can it possibly be the stone? (Poor results, Naniwa 1k/3k combo)



Don Nguyen
05-04-2013, 02:58 PM
I've been using the entry level Naniwa 1k/3k combo stone since I've started sharpening. I set bevels with a worn DMT coarse if needed. I just haven't been able to get any form of a decent edge using this stone at all. It's slow cutting and very soft. I'm pretty sure there's no burr remaining; I can't feel it or see it with the loupe. I've tried hard pressures, moderate, and really light. Tried really acute angles to slightly more obtuse (maybe within a 10-20 degree range I've tried). Deburred drawing through wood, cork, stropping on the stone, on newspaper, leather.

This is the stone (tan/red):

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/images/QA-012-z.jpg

I can manage push cutting paper, but nothing more than that. Can't even shave hairs. Any bite that I can get on an edge goes away pretty quick too, maybe even after one short cutting session (end grain board, etc).

Do I still have a burr on there? Wire edge?

I tried out the 1k/6k from Korin a little while ago and I had none of these issues. I was able to get an edge that could pass the 3 finger and thumbnail test easily - push cut paper, shave hairs, etc. Can't seem to do that no matter what I do with this Naniwa.

Dave Martell
05-04-2013, 03:09 PM
It sounds like the stone(s) may be wearing faster then they cut leading to edge rounding (convexing). If you wobble still then this might be the kick. Was the other stone combo you tried faster cutting and/or slow wearing?

Don Nguyen
05-04-2013, 03:17 PM
The other stone was definitely harder and slower wearing. It cut much faster too. One thing I noticed with this Naniwa is it doesn't develop a slurry at all, and it just gets loaded right away (the black particles don't float in the slurry that would have been there, just gets embedded into the stone).

I think my wobble problems have improved a lot, so I'm not sure if that's the main factor. I do still have some wobble, but it's fairly minimal from what I can see and feel (if I'm judging correctly).

wenus2
05-04-2013, 03:19 PM
If you wobble still then this might be the kick.

:yeahthat:

:sofa:

Need a faster stone.

xuz
05-04-2013, 03:23 PM
At one point I had almost the complete set of SS and had no problem. (1,3,5,8,12k).
I found them to be sufficiently fast, very consistent, but soft (due to resin binding).
But I have not used this particular combination stone.

I'm sure you've already done this before, but have you tried using sharpie and doing like 1 or 2 strokes to see where you are honing?

panda
05-04-2013, 03:29 PM
My first stone was a cheap one and it took a long session to get a usable edge. Have you tried going for longer periods of time? try flattening the stone before AND during the process.

Don Nguyen
05-04-2013, 05:17 PM
I'll have to try all your suggestions, thanks.

If nothing works, I'll upgrade stones and see what happens (I've been meaning to anyways).

chinacats
05-04-2013, 05:36 PM
Is this a stainless knife?

zitangy
05-04-2013, 10:41 PM
I've been using the entry level Naniwa 1k/3k combo stone since I've started sharpening. I set bevels with a worn DMT coarse if needed. I just haven't been able to get any form of a decent edge using this stone at all.


Do I still have a burr on there? Wire edge?

Opinion ONly.....
Z> wire edge is uncurled burr/fold which by this time shld be fatigued or at least the initial stage. Burr is the folded metal. I prefer cuttings strokes on stone to get rid of it as spine leading will only unfold and you really cant visibly see weak metal.

"I tried out the 1k/6k from Korin a little while ago and I had none of these issues. I was able to get an edge that could pass the 3 finger and thumbnail test easily - push cut paper, shave hairs, etc. Can't seem to do that no matter what I do with this Naniwa.

Z> IF you have managed to get the same knife sharpened on this particular stone then it obviates your technique; unless the condition of the of the knife is not the same then.

The Red 1000Grit is muddy and soft whilst the Tan 3000 Grit is hard. This I believe is the " home stone"

Wobble> I mainly use shorter strokes most of the time for better control and use lower half and upper half of the stone with blade extending below/ upper portion of the stone so as to wear off the stone ends adn hopefully when I do the long strokes to even out any irregular portion of knife which is mainly used for finishing; and hopefully that will prevent stone stone from eneven wear

Remove enough metal and a burr will form, general characteristic of metal. IF no fold/ burr.. simply means that you have not removed sufficiently Yet.
good luck
rgds and hv a nice week-end.

zitangy
05-04-2013, 10:49 PM
I've been using the entry level Naniwa 1k/3k combo stone since I've started sharpening. I set bevels with a worn DMT coarse if needed. I just haven't been able to get any form of a decent edge using this stone at all.


Do I still have a burr on there? Wire edge?

Opinion ONly.....
Z> wire edge is uncurled burr/fold which by this time shld be fatigued or at least the initial stage. Burr is the folded metal. I prefer cuttings strokes on stone to get rid of it as spine leading will only unfold and you really cant visibly see weak metal.

"I tried out the 1k/6k from Korin a little while ago and I had none of these issues. I was able to get an edge that could pass the 3 finger and thumbnail test easily - push cut paper, shave hairs, etc. Can't seem to do that no matter what I do with this Naniwa.

Z> IF you have managed to get the same knife sharpened on this particular stone then it obviates your technique; unless the condition of the of the knife is not the same then.

The Red 1000Grit is muddy and soft whilst the Tan 3000 Grit is hard. This I believe is the " home stone"

Wobble> I mainly use shorter strokes most of the time for better control and use lower half and upper half of the stone with blade extending below/ upper portion of the stone so as to wear off the stone ends adn hopefully when I do the long strokes to even out any irregular portion of knife which is mainly used for finishing; and hopefully that will prevent stone stone from eneven wear

Remove enough metal and a burr will form, general characteristic of metal. IF no fold/ burr.. simply means that you have not removed sufficiently Yet.
good luck
rgds and hv a nice week-end.

xuz
05-04-2013, 11:59 PM
I just realized that this is not a superstone, so anything I said about these stones being good are void.

On a bright side, I'd think of this more as an opportunity than an inconvenience.
It's a sign from the heavens to try out more new and exciting stones that you've never used!
There's always room for one more. Or two. Or three.

Don Nguyen
05-05-2013, 12:21 AM
Z> IF you have managed to get the same knife sharpened on this particular stone then it obviates your technique; unless the condition of the of the knife is not the same then.

The Red 1000Grit is muddy and soft whilst the Tan 3000 Grit is hard. This I believe is the " home stone"

Wobble> I mainly use shorter strokes most of the time for better control and use lower half and upper half of the stone with blade extending below/ upper portion of the stone so as to wear off the stone ends adn hopefully when I do the long strokes to even out any irregular portion of knife which is mainly used for finishing; and hopefully that will prevent stone stone from eneven wear

Remove enough metal and a burr will form, general characteristic of metal. IF no fold/ burr.. simply means that you have not removed sufficiently Yet.
good luck
rgds and hv a nice week-end.

There is definitely a burr there. I found that the tan 3000 stone is very soft though, compared to the 1k side.

Don Nguyen
05-05-2013, 07:51 PM
I tried out your suggestion panda for lapping the stone many times, and it helped a ton! This stone does dish really, really quickly.

I just need to hurry up and get some good-uns.

CompE
05-06-2013, 09:29 PM
One thing I noticed with this Naniwa is it doesn't develop a slurry at all, and it just gets loaded right away (the black particles don't float in the slurry that would have been there, just gets embedded into the stone).


I tried out your suggestion panda for lapping the stone many times, and it helped a ton! This stone does dish really, really quickly.

All new stones have a "crust" on them. On some stones it's less noticeable, while on others you will get complete garbage results (no slurry, slow metal removal, fast loading) until you lap the crust off. It sounds to me like that might have been the problem.

Don Nguyen
05-06-2013, 10:12 PM
"Crust" for only initial use, or for every use?

I've had the stone for quite a while now.

markenki
05-06-2013, 10:44 PM
"Crust" for only initial use, or for every use?

I've had the stone for quite a while now.
Initial use only.

psfred
05-07-2013, 12:07 AM
That stone is the old fashioned "natural stone mimic" type, and is quite soft. You must use a very light touch to avoid abrading it away faster than you can sharpen your knives, and must be careful to use as much of the surface as possible as evenly as possible to avoid serious dishing.

I would also recommend that you use the 3000 side like a strop -- pull the knife across the stone away from the edge, never push the edge into the stone. It is so soft you are more likely to dub the edge off than polish it!. Used as a strop you won't damage the edge and should be able to raise a dull polish. You aren't grinding at 3000 grit, you are polishing anyway.

Naniwa Super Stones are much better, Choseras are supposed to be better yet, but my favorite stone at the moment is a Bester 1200 grit stone. Very hard, cuts very fast, and stays very flat. I then strop on a 3000 grit Naniwa super stone or a 4000 grit King stone, I don't bother with the 8000 grit with my knives since they are Western stainless steel by and large and there is no real benefit.

Peter