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EdipisReks
05-18-2013, 08:58 PM
I got to work on knives, and I put together an album with descriptions. The light didn't cooperate, and my wife was unfortunately not able to be my camera assistant (she had forgotten about it, and was gone doing stuff before I had the chance to remind her), so the pics aren't great. I had been hoping to take more progress shots, but hopefully the in between shots help people who have never sharpened these knives to understand what they should be looking at. I went for trying to show detail over aesthetics. This only shows what thinning with each stone did, and does not include sharpening (sharpening was done on 1000 Chosera, followed by 4000 Shapton Pro, followed by .1 boron on leather, and took very little time, as I had barely touched the edges of either knife). Stones used were 500 Beston, 800 King, green Synthetic aoto (green brick of joy), and Uchigimori finger stones. If you have any questions, please ask! I can give tips on re-finishing above the bevel line with sandpaper, but I managed to not scratch much, and I didn't want to take steel off just to take pics. The choil and tip shot were kinda blurry (hard to hold in the light I had), so if it's sunny tomorrow I will retake. The tip and the edge of both knives is very thin, however.

here is the album: http://imgur.com/a/TeLgq. you'll want to blow the pics up, full size, by clicking on the little gear icon that appears in the upper righthand corner of each picture, if you hover your cursor over the picture, and choosing view at full resolution.

Mrmnms
05-18-2013, 09:01 PM
Can't see'm

EdipisReks
05-18-2013, 09:03 PM
should be able to now. it didn't want to link properly, for some reason.

Pensacola Tiger
05-18-2013, 09:41 PM
Nice job! That King 800 really created some contrast.

wsfarrell
05-18-2013, 09:57 PM
The King 800 used to be one of Dave's favorite stones for "coloring" a bevel, though I haven't seen him talk much about it lately.

Nice job!

EdipisReks
05-18-2013, 10:16 PM
thanks guys! i could spend a lot more time polishing the knives up (i did so the first time i thinned the knives, as seen here (http://i.imgur.com/ZUiqiZY.jpg), with the 240), but i find that the process shown gives very good performance while giving a reasonable look. i cut a lot of radishes and leeks, so the grit screws up the finish pretty quickly.

tk59
05-19-2013, 01:28 AM
Nice work, ER! :thumbsup:

EdipisReks
05-19-2013, 01:41 AM
thanks mate! if you have any suggestions to improve, let me know.

chinacats
05-19-2013, 02:33 AM
Thanks Edipis, nicely done. Looks like no difficulty in consistently hitting the bevel.

EdipisReks
05-19-2013, 02:59 AM
Thanks Edipis, nicely done. Looks like no difficulty in consistently hitting the bevel.

there is some variation in the grind between the flat and the bevel line, but the bevels themselves are easy.

bieniek
05-19-2013, 11:41 AM
Looks good ;)

Jim
05-20-2013, 01:05 PM
http://i.imgur.com/ukbmcxfh.jpg


Looks great!

TB_London
05-20-2013, 05:43 PM
Looking good, do you end up with a crisp shinogi at the top of the bevel, like with a yanagiba, or is it more of a blended transition?

EdipisReks
05-20-2013, 06:34 PM
the Heiji gyutos don't have a shinogi the same way a yanagi does. it's pretty crisp as seen here (http://i.imgur.com/ZUiqiZY.jpg), but it has more blend. the trick is to only grind below the line.

G-rat
05-20-2013, 08:44 PM
So beautiful. Way more beautiful than mine. However, Heijis are a thing of beauty unto themselves no matter what so mine's is still purdy

Sambal
05-20-2013, 10:18 PM
I understand that the Heiji gyuto has a mostly flat blade from the spine to the shinogi and then a larger than usual bevel to the cutting edge. Now this might seem a silly question but being new and just learning how to sharpen Jknives I have to ask anyway. What happens if you thin above the shinogi of a Heiji? In other words you blend the shinogi and get rid of the firm and well delineated line while thinning it and giving it a hamaguri all the way up instead of stopping at the shinogi. Of course this would change the unique geometry of the Heiji but would it make the gyuto a more efficient cutter? Just curious.

EdipisReks
05-20-2013, 10:21 PM
having a hamaguri geomtry that far up the knife would make it thicker behind the edge than it needs to be. there is nothing special or magical about convexity, and it only makes sense in places where it makes sense.

which do you think will cut better?

this?

http://i.imgur.com/yE5aHPZ.jpg

or this?

http://i.imgur.com/P1ZGbFt.jpg

Sambal
05-20-2013, 10:32 PM
having a hamaguri geomtry that far up the knife would make it thicker behind the edge than it needs to be. there is nothing special or magical about convexity, and it only makes sense in places where it makes sense.

which do you think will cut better?

this?

http://i.imgur.com/yE5aHPZ.jpg

or this?

http://i.imgur.com/P1ZGbFt.jpg

Yes I know but what if you start with the geometry of the Heiji (which is like your second picture here) and then blend in the part around the shinogi where there is an angle between the bevel and the rest of the blade above the shinogi? Won't that make it a thinner knife then?

EdipisReks
05-20-2013, 10:50 PM
Yes I know but what if you start with the geometry of the Heiji (which is like your second picture here) and then blend in the part around the shinogi where there is an angle between the bevel and the rest of the blade above the shinogi? Won't that make it a thinner knife then?


What you are describing wouldn't, and "hamaguri" is not what you are describing. Hamaguri is something thst makes sense on a single bevel knife (where the edge is going to be thin, due to the chisel grind on the face and the concavity on the back: i've always been under the impression that it's called a clam shell edge because its convex on one side and concave on the other, like a clam shell), and you want to (mainly) improve edge stability and/or add a (quite minor) tendency for food to not stick as much. This kind of convexity involves a lot more than blending bevels.

What you are describing is a messed up Heiji, as the angle difference is part of what makes them so resistant to stickage: a nice big thin piece of potato can stick to the bevel, and it can stick to the flat, but it has a hard time sticking to both at the same time.

Blending in the bevel to the flat allows Mr Potato slice to stick as much as he wants. Raising the line would make it thinner behind the edge, but then you would start getting more food stickage, as there is more bevel for things to stick to, which starts defeating the purpose. This is the balancing act. Both of my knives have wider bevels, and thus higher shinogis, than stock. I stopped raising the lines, and thus widening the bevels, when I decided stickage was being too adversely affected. Look at the choil shot I posted; I don't think the edge needs to be much thinner.

Hope that clears it up. It's easy to understand with knife in hand.

Squilliam
05-20-2013, 11:55 PM
Bending the bevel will give you a convex ground knife like most other knives, to some extent. It will cut better because there are no shoulders. However it's more difficult to thin and may have more stiction.

Edipis, I understand hamaguri to refer to a closed clam. Convex coming to a point from both sides. Single bevel hamaguri is like half a clam.

EdipisReks
05-21-2013, 08:29 AM
Bending the bevel will give you a convex ground knife like most other knives, to some extent. It will cut better because there are no shoulders. However it's more difficult to thin and may have more stiction.

blending the bevel won't do much on a Heiji, due to how tall the bevels are. with a knife with shorter bevels, sure.




Edipis, I understand hamaguri to refer to a closed clam. Convex coming to a point from both sides. Single bevel hamaguri is like half a clam.

maybe, but a convexed single bevel knife looks a lot more like half a clamshell than a double beveled knife convexed on both sides looks like a closed clam, in my opinion.

TB_London
05-21-2013, 08:39 AM
the Heiji gyutos don't have a shinogi the same way a yanagi does. it's pretty crisp as seen here (http://i.imgur.com/ZUiqiZY.jpg), but it has more blend. the trick is to only grind below the line.

Cool i follow the same approach with my KU knives which seem to have a similar style of grind, and Carter SFGZ. Where the top section of Heiji's looks to have been ground i was wondering if there was any smoothing done of the transition. I'm a fan of knives ground like this as it makes thinning more of a defined process as you have a bevel to work off rather than just going at it on the sides of the knife, and then refinishing.

EdipisReks
05-21-2013, 08:42 AM
Cool i follow the same approach with my KU knives which seem to have a similar style of grind, and Carter SFGZ. Where the top section of Heiji's looks to have been ground i was wondering if there was any smoothing done of the transition. I'm a fan of knives ground like this as it makes thinning more of a defined process as you have a bevel to work off rather than just going at it on the sides of the knife, and then refinishing.

it's definitely more like a single bevel than not, in terms of the grind, and pretty much works as you describe. the angle between the bevel and the flats isn't quite as pronounced as on a yanagi, though, so there is more tendency for grind to move higher up than you want it to, especially with muddy stones. it's easy to clean that up with finger stones (if it's minor), or sandpaper on a sanding block, if it's more severe.

tk59
05-21-2013, 09:10 AM
For what it's worth, my understanding is a tiny bit of convexity goes a long way. If you're thinning manually, you'll generally get enough of it on the secondary bevel whether you mean to put it there or not. The transition is fairly crisp. If you're okay with committing mortal sin, you can ease your transition if you want. The more you ease, the more it will behave like knives that are ground without a secondary bevel. You might as well buy something else (Gengetsu for example :) ). Like single bevel knives, after you get your secondary bevel right, it's generally wise to grind a tiny, thicker, primary bevel on it or the edge will tend to crumble. I put a single "micro" bevel on the right side at 15-20 deg.

EdipisReks
05-21-2013, 09:12 AM
yep.

mhlee
05-21-2013, 12:01 PM
What you are describing is a messed up Heiji, as the angle difference is part of what makes them so resistant to stickage: a nice big thin piece of potato can stick to the bevel, and it can stick to the flat, but it has a hard time sticking to both at the same time.


Nicely put, ER.

And, nice job on the knives. Great contrast between the primary and secondary bevel. They look so much like single bevel knives.

EdipisReks
05-21-2013, 01:52 PM
Nicely put, ER.

And, nice job on the knives. Great contrast between the primary and secondary bevel. They look so much like single bevel knives.

thanks! it's all in the King 800.

mpukas
05-21-2013, 04:30 PM
Nice post, ER. I agree w/ everything that's been said here. I don't have much to add to...

Jon has told me that w/ a crisp shinogi line, stiction is minimized, just as you described. The less crisp, the more food will stick.

Youíve done a nice job keeping the shinogi line crisp, especially at the tip. Jon has also pointed out to me that on a knife like a Heiji gyuto, the transition isnít between blade face and secondary bevel isnít quite as clearly defined as in a true single bevel knife, so these knives are tricky to sharpen properly and maintain that crisp shinogi.

Honestly, I was hoping youíd be able to post some vid footage of how you do the secondary bevel, especially at the tip. I botched mine up pretty badly, and since Jon fixed it Iíve been scared to go at it again. Iíve been practicing a little on some cheaper knives, but wonít know how much better Iíve gotten until I try the Heiji again.

Just for folks to know, I messed mine up by using too much pressure; not maintaining a consistent angle which blurred the shinogi; used to much pressure on my handle-holding hand (I switch hands always have the edge facing me) which caused an over-grind at the heel; lifted the handle too high while using too much pressure at the tip which caused the tip to crumble and break off; over-rotated at the shinogi line at the curve towards the tip which again caused a blurring of the shinogi and made a lot of scratches on the blade face.

I really didnít realize how thin and delicate the edges and especially the tip of knives like these are. And also, the angles are VERY low and the transition between primary and secondary bevels is very slight. Jon measured the angles for me on a new knife, and the primary bevel is around 5d and the secondary is around 6d. So the included angle of the cutting edge is around 10d total, with only a 1d difference between primary and secondary. Lessons learned.

Lukas
05-23-2013, 09:50 AM
Are those semi stainless? I love my semi stainless santoku and I was thinking in getting a 240 gyuto also in semi stainless, but it seems that nakaya only makes them in Swedish steel.

Dusty
05-23-2013, 03:26 PM
This thread makes me want a Heiji. Looks great ER.

EdipisReks
05-23-2013, 03:29 PM
Nice post, ER. I agree w/ everything that's been said here. I don't have much to add to...

Jon has told me that w/ a crisp shinogi line, stiction is minimized, just as you described. The less crisp, the more food will stick.

Youíve done a nice job keeping the shinogi line crisp, especially at the tip. Jon has also pointed out to me that on a knife like a Heiji gyuto, the transition isnít between blade face and secondary bevel isnít quite as clearly defined as in a true single bevel knife, so these knives are tricky to sharpen properly and maintain that crisp shinogi.

Honestly, I was hoping youíd be able to post some vid footage of how you do the secondary bevel, especially at the tip. I botched mine up pretty badly, and since Jon fixed it Iíve been scared to go at it again. Iíve been practicing a little on some cheaper knives, but wonít know how much better Iíve gotten until I try the Heiji again.

Just for folks to know, I messed mine up by using too much pressure; not maintaining a consistent angle which blurred the shinogi; used to much pressure on my handle-holding hand (I switch hands always have the edge facing me) which caused an over-grind at the heel; lifted the handle too high while using too much pressure at the tip which caused the tip to crumble and break off; over-rotated at the shinogi line at the curve towards the tip which again caused a blurring of the shinogi and made a lot of scratches on the blade face.

I really didnít realize how thin and delicate the edges and especially the tip of knives like these are. And also, the angles are VERY low and the transition between primary and secondary bevels is very slight. Jon measured the angles for me on a new knife, and the primary bevel is around 5d and the secondary is around 6d. So the included angle of the cutting edge is around 10d total, with only a 1d difference between primary and secondary. Lessons learned.

maybe after i move i'll have time to make a video. it sounds like you know what to do, next time, though. i had owned and used single bevels for a good long while before getting my first Heiji, and most of the process is the same.

EdipisReks
05-23-2013, 03:30 PM
Are those semi stainless? I love my semi stainless santoku and I was thinking in getting a 240 gyuto also in semi stainless, but it seems that nakaya only makes them in Swedish steel.


they are both semi-stainless, yes. i have a carbon 240 on its way to me, though.

Lukas
05-23-2013, 04:42 PM
Please do a comparison of both when you get the carbon, I haven't notice too much of a steel performance difference between the Heiji semi stainless and my Shigefusa, at least in a home environment.

EdipisReks
05-23-2013, 08:24 PM
Please do a comparison of both when you get the carbon, I haven't notice too much of a steel performance difference between the Heiji semi stainless and my Shigefusa, at least in a home environment.

hmmm, i think my Shig and my semi-stainless Heijis are rather different in edge retention, but i tend to cut a fair amount of acidic food.

tk59
05-24-2013, 02:33 AM
hmmm, i think my Shig and my semi-stainless Heijis are rather different in edge retention, but i tend to cut a fair amount of acidic food.+1. The semi stainless holds much better for me.

Lukas
05-25-2013, 04:51 AM
Really? That's interesting, now that the JPY is so low, it makes those knives really attractive. Please do the comparison when you receive it.


+1. The semi stainless holds much better for me.

EdipisReks
06-07-2013, 02:15 PM
Just got the new carbon Heiji, today. It feels substantially heavier than my 240 semi-stainless, for whatever reason. It's also freakishly thin behind the edge and at the tip. I'll be re-doing my other Heijis, to match this, when I get back from a work trip next week, and I'll update this thread. Might make some video, if I can, as well.

EdipisReks
06-07-2013, 05:24 PM
I'll get in trouble when my wife gets home, as I was supposed to be getting ready to go out tonight, not sharpening knives, but I left work early after opening the new Heiji. I bought the new Heiji primarily to see exactly how it had been ground. I was about 95% right, in what I had been doing. The 5% difference was hard to see. My tip was nearly as thin, and the cross section was quite similar. In terms of general edge thickness, there was about 10 minutes on a Chosera 1000 between them. However, I could feel small differences between the two knives in the front curve of the knife. Not something I can get a pic of, but I could feel it. I remember Tinh's Heiji feeling like this, and his Heiji cut just a little but better than mine did, with just a little bit less hesitation on some foods.

I replicated this by changing the spine angle, slightly, while thinning on the right hand side of the knife, around the front curve (the section 2-3 inches from the tip, where it curves back up), to steepen the secondary bevel more than I normally do in this part. Not sure if that was the correct way to do it, but the knives now feel essentially the same, when you run your fingers on them, and they both cut a potato the same way. I'll need to finish re-finishing my semi-stainless 240 when I get back, and then I'll thin out my 270, which will need more work than the 240 did, and which is easier to photograph. I'll make that the subject to Heiji spa day part two.

BTW, the saya and handle are very nice on this new one, and appear to be stabilized wood. The saya is a two part, and fits perfectly. I have my camera packed up for a business trip I'm taking this weekend and next week, but here is the pic Heiji-San sent me, when it was ready to ship.

http://i.imgur.com/wXE6bkr.jpg

Sambal
06-08-2013, 07:11 AM
[QUOTE=EdipisReks;214436]
I replicated this by changing the spine angle, slightly, while thinning on the right hand side of the knife, around the front curve (the section 2-3 inches from the tip, where it curves back up), to steepen the secondary bevel more than I normally do in this part.

ER, what do you mean by "changing the spine angle"?

And, with the grind of the Heiji as it is, when you say that you thinned the right side of the knife, am I understanding it correctly that you're essentially raising the shinogi? In other words, if you made the bevel angle more acute the blade road is wider?

EdipisReks
06-08-2013, 09:31 AM
changed the spine angle in relation to the stone.

yes, i raised the shinogi.

Patatas Bravas
06-08-2013, 10:55 AM
Just got the new carbon Heiji, today. It feels substantially heavier than my 240 semi-stainless, for whatever reason. It's also freakishly thin behind the edge and at the tip. I'll be re-doing my other Heijis, to match this, when I get back from a work trip next week, and I'll update this thread. Might make some video, if I can, as well.

ER - sorry as I might be rushing you, but any more feedback on the carbon? Sounds as though you prefer the geometry, though one reason I'm interested in a Heiji is the fine rep of the semi-stainless. Interesting though maybe not surprising that two gyuto of the same size and maker but of different steel would have a different shape and weight.

tk59
06-08-2013, 11:33 AM
...Interesting though maybe not surprising that two gyuto of the same size and maker but of different steel would have a different shape and weight.Not that interesting. I don't think I could make two omelettes that are exactly the same, let alone a knife. Handmade stuff. I've seen it with every knifemaker. Some more than others. Plus, I'm sure they tweak the knives upon request.

Patatas Bravas
06-08-2013, 12:19 PM
Good point but I was curious if the difference also could be intentional and due in part to Heiji trying to make the most of the two steels and so shaping the blades a bit differently. The website has the carbon under the 'pro' section and the stainless in the 'home' section, and so this might also imply a different attitude to each.

EdipisReks
06-08-2013, 04:17 PM
I asked Jon about it. He said that there is a pretty large variability with Heiji, unless you order special (I gave no instructions), so it looks like I just got lucky. Any knife I received I'm use would have been a good one, but apparently I caught Heiji-San on a particularly good day. Knives bought from Jon would not have the variability, as he has specific requirements for the knives.