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bob
05-20-2011, 05:21 AM
This is interesting. I recall reading something about zdp189 being a new super steel.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/ko24gyzd.html

Would you buy this for 700?

At this price, fit and finish becomes quite important for me and from the picture on CKTG, I can't say I'm very overly impressed. On the other hand I know next to nothing about the steel. Presumably, its made in the typical thin konosuke geometry, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Would anyone be kind enough to buy one and post their thoughts?

rockbox
05-20-2011, 06:21 AM
I don't know about supersteel and that's quite a premium for ZDP-189 considering the old Zwilling Miyabis where made with ZDP-189 and it only cost 200 dollars. ZDP-189 is similar to Cowry-X and SG2 in composition so you are going to get very good where wear resistance but it can be chippy if it is hardened too high.

rockbox
05-20-2011, 06:26 AM
9.5" miyabi 7000MC are selling for 179 bucks now. I might pick one up and try to rehandle it.

bob
05-20-2011, 06:34 AM
Thats awesome. You're a self-enabler, and I had nothing to do with it.

spinblue
05-20-2011, 06:42 AM
that's a lot of cabbage.

99Limited
05-20-2011, 08:21 AM
I think Konosuke has surpassed the point of diminishing returns with that knife. Their white #2 or HD line gives you maximum cutting and edge retention for about 1/3 the price.

Rottman
05-20-2011, 08:25 AM
The Miyabis are clad, the Konosuke is a monosteel knife. The only other place I've seen ZDP monosteel was as an option with Suisin dreamcraft and those who asked for a quote got 4 digit answers.

rockbox
05-20-2011, 08:57 AM
The Miyabis are clad, the Konosuke is a monosteel knife. The only other place I've seen ZDP monosteel was as an option with Suisin dreamcraft and those who asked for a quote got 4 digit answers.

That is interesting but now I wonder about the heat treat. One of you freaks needs to buy one and report back.

Eamon Burke
05-20-2011, 09:02 AM
I had nothing to do with it.

The battle cry of enablers everywhere! :razz::razz:

Rottman
05-20-2011, 09:05 AM
The Konosuke ZDP monosteel was offered on some Canadian site a few months ago and they had a $ 1000 + price tag on it and stated something like HRC 68 for the first knife but noted that the smith would take the following production 1-2 points down...

tk59
05-20-2011, 09:16 AM
Oh, I didn't realize it was monosteel. That's definitely sexy...

MadMel
05-20-2011, 09:29 AM
HRC 68 seems freakishly hard to me. Waiting on a review here lol.

mpukas
05-20-2011, 12:59 PM
The Miyabis are clad, the Konosuke is a monosteel knife. The only other place I've seen ZDP monosteel was as an option with Suisin dreamcraft and those who asked for a quote got 4 digit answers.

This was my first thought/response to people who are saying this is expensive. I too remember the link to the Canadian site where the ZDP-189 was $1K+... and hardness of 68, with the maker knocking it down a couple points, etc...

If I'm not mistaken, this is the only stainless powdered mono-steel knife on the market...

This is quite literally my perfect/dream knife (the 270 job) - outside of a custom BB and/or DT. My Yusuke 270 gyuto has quickly become my new favorite go-to knife - I've got no complaints with it. But as always I'm looking/thinking of something better. My dream knife would be D-wa handle (not a fan of octagon), laser, mono steel, powdered stainless and hard - 64+. The only other thing I would do differently on this Konosuke would be the handle option on CaddyJ's new 270 suji (don't care for light ho wood)... :thumbsup:

If I could do it, I would in a heartbeat and have it here tomorrow!!! Alas, it's not in the cards for me right now. :mad3: Maybe if I unloaded about 4 of my other relatively-new knives I could, but too attached to them... :scared1:

JohnnyChance
05-20-2011, 01:18 PM
The Konosuke ZDP monosteel was offered on some Canadian site a few months ago and they had a $ 1000 + price tag on it and stated something like HRC 68 for the first knife but noted that the smith would take the following production 1-2 points down...


This was my first thought/response to people who are saying this is expensive. I too remember the link to the Canadian site where the ZDP-189 was $1K+... and hardness of 68, with the maker knocking it down a couple points, etc...

Tosho Knife Arts (http://toshoknifearts.com/shop/knives/240mm-zdp-189-gyuto-konosuketosho-collaboration)

Looks way nicer than the CKTG version too. But I guess you could buy the CKTG version and get it rehandled for about the same price.

chefofthefuture
05-20-2011, 01:23 PM
I like the fact that they knocked down the hardness so the knife isn't prone to chipping. I'm also fairly sure that you can order any Konosuke with any handle that they offer.

I might pick this up with my tax return...

JohnnyChance
05-20-2011, 01:24 PM
Also, the profile is different from the regular Konosuke profile. I have always disliked the looks of the Konosuke profile, like the tip is up too high and it has too much belly. The profile on my Sakai bluewayjapan gyuto is very similar and it has too much belly. But these ZDP Konosukes (The ones from CKTG, not the Tosho Knife Arts version) have a much different profile. Almost more like an Aritsugu A-type.

tk59
05-20-2011, 01:36 PM
I think I see one of these in my future... Unfortuntaely, not the near future. Just had to pay $6k to do an unplanned shower replacement. That was not good for my knife budget...

JohnnyChance
05-20-2011, 01:40 PM
$6k is a lot of knives and stones. Couldnt you have just run a garden hose through the window?

rockbox
05-20-2011, 01:53 PM
If I'm not mistaken, this is the only stainless powdered mono-steel knife on the market...



Almost every knife Pierre makes fits this description and so does the Richmond Remedy.

rockbox
05-20-2011, 01:55 PM
You can't compare Canadian prices and US prices. Everything costs more in Canada.

mpukas
05-20-2011, 01:57 PM
Also, the profile is different from the regular Konosuke profile. I have always disliked the looks of the Konosuke profile, like the tip is up too high and it has too much belly. The profile on my Sakai bluewayjapan gyuto is very similar and it has too much belly. But these ZDP Konosukes (The ones from CKTG, not the Tosho Knife Arts version) have a much different profile. Almost more like an Aritsugu A-type.

I'm not seeing it the way you descibe - to me CKTG ZDP profile looks the same as the HD - different than pics I see of A-Type on CKTG and other sites. Hard to tell from just pics sometimes... :scratchhead:

JohnnyChance
05-20-2011, 02:29 PM
This is the profile I think of when I hear Konosuke:
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/chefknivestogo_2156_14368607

This is the ZDP:
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/chefknivestogo_2160_40004533

They look different to me. Like I said, I havent owned either of these. But the ZDP looks like the edge runs parallel to the spine, where the first one the edge is not and constantly angling up towards the spine. Some HD Konos I looked at appear to be more like the ZDP than the White one. Maybe it is just me.

tk59
05-20-2011, 02:32 PM
$6k is a lot of knives and stones. Couldnt you have just run a garden hose through the window?

That was my initial reaction. My wife thought it was a joke.

slowtyper
05-20-2011, 02:49 PM
You can't compare Canadian prices and US prices. Everything costs more in Canada.
Generally yes but my konosuke from Tosho knife arts was cheaper than the us online shops.

echerub
05-20-2011, 03:37 PM
Tosho Knife Arts has good prices for Canadian buyers on a good portion of their selection. I checked out a few items, and in general it works out to be just a bit less than what it would cost to order from the US and ship up here. Of course, there's tax and if you're not in Toronto there's domestic shipping to add on as well.

I'm not sold on the ZDP version of the Konosuke gyuto for myself, but I'm glad the option is out there.

kalaeb
05-20-2011, 03:41 PM
65 or 68 seem painfully hard. Does any one have a knife out of ZDP, if so how difficult is something that hard to sharpen? I have always thought my limit to be in the low 60's,, but then again I am relatively new to this.

tk59
05-20-2011, 03:44 PM
I have a cermax at 66hrc. It's no problem whatsoever to get blazing sharp.

watercrawl
05-20-2011, 03:58 PM
65 or 68 seem painfully hard. Does any one have a knife out of ZDP, if so how difficult is something that hard to sharpen? I have always thought my limit to be in the low 60's,, but then again I am relatively new to this.

I have a Spyderco ZDP189 Delica...solid ZDP189 before they started cladding them. I, in my stupider years, decided it needed thinning. I don't know what Spyderco had for a HRC on that knife, but I promise you thinning that 3.5" blade was just about the worst knife adventure I ever had. Essentially I removed the hollow grind to the blade and made it a flat bevel. Cuts like a freaking dream now and is one of two pocket knives I've kept amongst them all. But I wouldn't ever do it again. The most wear resistant steel I've ever encountered. To make a honyaki yanagi (or other single bevel knife) from ZDP189 or Cowry-X and put the HRC up over 62 would be extremely silly IMHO. In a gyuto where you're grinding a much smaller bevel, it's not bad....especially when clad like the KD's are. This knife, if you ever had to thin a lot of it....well, let's just say I'd rather not.

TB_London
05-20-2011, 03:59 PM
oooooooooo it is tempting, but realistically how much is performance going to differ from a standard konosuke?

rockbox
05-20-2011, 04:21 PM
That's what your KMG is for.


I have a Spyderco ZDP189 Delica...solid ZDP189 before they started cladding them. I, in my stupider years, decided it needed thinning. I don't know what Spyderco had for a HRC on that knife, but I promise you thinning that 3.5" blade was just about the worst knife adventure I ever had. Essentially I removed the hollow grind to the blade and made it a flat bevel. Cuts like a freaking dream now and is one of two pocket knives I've kept amongst them all. But I wouldn't ever do it again. The most wear resistant steel I've ever encountered. To make a honyaki yanagi (or other single bevel knife) from ZDP189 or Cowry-X and put the HRC up over 62 would be extremely silly IMHO. In a gyuto where you're grinding a much smaller bevel, it's not bad....especially when clad like the KD's are. This knife, if you ever had to thin a lot of it....well, let's just say I'd rather not.

tk59
05-20-2011, 04:36 PM
oooooooooo it is tempting, but realistically how much is performance going to differ from a standard konosuke?

Which standard konosuke? It would FAR outlast either edge (stainless or whiteII) but it wouldn't keep the scream as long as the carbon. It's closer to the Kon HD but I still think it doesn't scream as long.

watercrawl
05-20-2011, 05:06 PM
That's what your KMG is for.

I not have KMG back then. :D But yes, that would have been ideal.

TDj
05-20-2011, 05:12 PM
so, i had a henckels cermax for a while (still do - never gets used tho) - these powdered steels are crazy-annoying to sharpen [for me]. i like the fresh-off-the-stones feel, and if zdp can't give that same feeling longer than the HD, then what's the point, really?

Rottman
05-20-2011, 05:15 PM
I'm sure that besides the price of the steel the time grinding and the amount of belts/stone needed for a monosteel ZDP knife factors big time into the high end price. On that Canadian site they even mentioned the Kanji imprint not being as deep as usual due to the steel properties.

slowtyper
05-20-2011, 05:32 PM
Tosho Knife Arts has good prices for Canadian buyers on a good portion of their selection. I checked out a few items, and in general it works out to be just a bit less than what it would cost to order from the US and ship up here. Of course, there's tax and if you're not in Toronto there's domestic shipping to add on as well.

I'm not sold on the ZDP version of the Konosuke gyuto for myself, but I'm glad the option is out there.

No tax being charged yet so..good time to buy

echerub
05-20-2011, 05:35 PM
Oh, really? Prices are tax-included? Nice!

Too bad there isn't anything I need to get from their selection at the moment. Need? Want? Ah, whichever :)

QCDawg
03-07-2017, 12:14 PM
I have a San mai sukenari Zdp. I wonder if Zdp mono "patina'd" line crazy... never seen one.

Jovidah
03-07-2017, 12:21 PM
Considering the 20% chromium content.... nope. Would be a pain in the ass to work with, a ***** to thin, and a whole lot more expensive.

supersayan3
03-07-2017, 12:45 PM
Sukenari also had done Honyaki ZDP yanagiba

khashy
03-07-2017, 03:40 PM
Sukenari also had done Honyaki ZDP yanagiba

Where does the madness end! What kind of HRC does a honyaki zdp get?

QCDawg
03-07-2017, 04:06 PM
Where does the madness end! What kind of HRC does a honyaki zdp get?

Maxamet, rex21, cruwear, k390.. meteors.

LifeByA1000Cuts
03-07-2017, 05:19 PM
Differentially hardened/tempered ZDP or "just" a premium ZDP monosteel?

chefcomesback
03-07-2017, 06:21 PM
Differentially hardened? Zdp189 is stainless and fully hardened

LifeByA1000Cuts
03-08-2017, 04:56 AM
Well, while the japanese community seems to accept the honyaki label for homogenously hardened monosteels, it confuses the rest of the world :) Why not just call it a "god-perished steaming ZDP189 monosteel bastard" then - I'm sure whoever has to thin it will describe it in a very similar manner.

richard
03-08-2017, 05:13 AM
Where does the madness end! What kind of HRC does a honyaki zdp get?

Can get up to HRC66. I've not really had interest to try it; SG2/R2 is enough for me, and it may be partly willful ignorance, but I don't really know why I would want more.

QCDawg
03-08-2017, 08:00 AM
Considering the 20% chromium content.... nope. Would be a pain in the ass to work with, a ***** to thin, and a whole lot more expensive.

Zdp has very high carbon. So that 20% chromium gets tied up in carbides. It's not stainless. The Zdp core in every on I have had takes on a "champagne" colored patina. And there are stories out there of it not liking acidity much (I just use different knives). So..hence my question about a honyaki Zdp and long term corrosion..

Jovidah
03-08-2017, 08:08 AM
Zdp has very high carbon. So that 20% chromium gets tied up in carbides. It's not stainless. The Zdp core in every on I have had takes on a "champagne" colored patina. And there are stories out there of it not liking acidity much (I just use different knives). So..hence my question about a honyaki Zdp and long term corrosion..

Wow... did not know / expect that. I always thought anything with 15% and upwards of chromium would be proper stainless.

Kippington
03-08-2017, 08:40 AM
Wow... did not know / expect that. I always thought anything with 15% and upwards of chromium would be proper stainless.

Yeah, this is why heat treating is so important.
Depending on how its heated and cooled, all that chromium can end up spread out evenly though the iron to make it 'stainless'... or it could be clumped up in concentrated nuggets leaving the iron around it suspect to rust.

Properly heat-treated ZDP-189 is stain resistant. There are no steels that are 100% stainless.

Jovidah
03-08-2017, 08:56 AM
There are no steels that are 100% stainless.

Not to be pedantic on the linguistics but... of course there is 100% stainless. The question is less than what, and how much less. ;)
But yes, you're correct in the sense that there's no 'rust-proof' or 'stain-free'. Even the German X50 stuff can start to rust and pit when you throw it in the dishwasher often enough.

Kippington
03-08-2017, 09:05 AM
I only state it that way because you said, 'proper stainless'.

I'm not sure where that definition lies.

Jovidah
03-08-2017, 09:10 AM
I only state it that way because you said, 'proper stainless'.

I'm not sure where that definition lies.
I don't think there is one? Usually it's defined by the chromium and/or nickel content. For me it's more about practical purposes. Suriving a neglected wet night on the board is proper stainless enough. :)

Kippington
03-08-2017, 09:18 AM
If you define it by the alloying content... ZDP has more than enough carbon in it to be called a cast iron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_iron)! :laugh:

jklip13
03-08-2017, 09:33 AM
I believe some standard in the US defines stainless as over 13% chromium, im probably wrong about the details

QCDawg
03-08-2017, 09:45 AM
I mean, Zdp I s pretty darn stainless. Not as stainless as R2 in my experience. Never had Hap40 but sounds similar, corrosion wise. Kono HD sounds similar too (they all patina, not R2 tho). I've never had AEB-L or VG-10 even think about a patina. But I have seen molybdenum (aus8) from misono and MAC "oxidize" (crappy patina). I'm just talking experiences with kitchen stuff from Japanese makers. If you move over to the EDC/ hunting knife world (s90-110v, m390) there is another level of discourse and attributes. Not to mention H1..

tienowen
03-08-2017, 06:15 PM
Sukenari also had done Honyaki ZDP yanagiba
Do you know how much for the price of that knife. I couldn't find any place have Sukenari ZDP Honyaki
PS: http://www.yanagiknife.com/akazawa-pm-honyaki-zdp189-yanagi-2
I only find another brand carry ZDP honyaki.

LifeByA1000Cuts
03-09-2017, 07:08 AM
Real stainless? H1, F562 et al.... :) Not perfect for a kitchen tool though....

Is HAP40 not considered a semi-stainless?

b2kk258
03-09-2017, 01:45 PM
Thats awesome. You're a self-enabler, and I had nothing to do with it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

preizzo
03-10-2017, 05:03 PM
Never seen it on zpd, r2.
Vg 10, ginsanko they can rust a little bit! 😊

supersayan3
03-11-2017, 09:40 AM
Do you know how much for the price of that knife. I couldn't find any place have Sukenari ZDP Honyaki
PS: http://www.yanagiknife.com/akazawa-pm-honyaki-zdp189-yanagi-2
I only find another brand carry ZDP honyaki.

I had posted a video in the past, from a sushi knife store in NY if I remember correct.
I don't remember how to find it, or anything more, apart from the fact that they had rolled newspapers cutting them slices with that yanagiba, for about an hour(?), to test the edge retention, and after the hours end, yanagiba kept on cutting

dreamwalker
03-11-2017, 07:17 PM
I had posted a video in the past, from a sushi knife store in NY if I remember correct.
I don't remember how to find it, or anything more, apart from the fact that they had rolled newspapers cutting them slices with that yanagiba, for about an hour(?), to test the edge retention, and after the hours end, yanagiba kept on cutting


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB1Lf6OekEk

tienowen
03-13-2017, 10:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB1Lf6OekEk
Thank for the video, very useful information.

soigne_west
03-14-2017, 01:43 AM
The Konosuke ZDP monosteel was offered on some Canadian site a few months ago and they had a $ 1000 + price tag on it and stated something like HRC 68 for the first knife but noted that the smith would take the following production 1-2 points down...


So basically you saying that the first one... maybe few, tested at 67. but he estimates the batch at 64-65? I am confused now.