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JPizzzle
05-20-2011, 02:51 PM
Hey all,
I'm in the process of working out the details to order a shig western in the Kasumi finish. I would have this baby rehandled with something special. Anyway, I'm not a knife expert and my current showcase is the devin thomas western itk gyuto in black lacewood-Excellent knife!! I have never used a carbon before, and would be willing to wipe off immediately after and in between use. I guess i'm just wondering if this is a good knife for me. It's nice not having to worry about stainless as much, but am worried that the trade off to carbon might not be worth it-especially coming from a DT AEB-L. Also, It's not cheap, after rehandling it's prob going to run around $800. Is the performance diff worht the switch to carbon. Do shigs live up to the hype or should I just get a custom from one of these great knife makers. Thanks, and any help is appreciated.

oivind_dahle
05-20-2011, 02:55 PM
The shig is awsome

Read this: http://***********************/2011/01/great-gyuto-shoot-out.html
and this: http://***********************/2011/01/forcing-patina-on-shigefusa-240-kasumi.html

I also love this article of Shigefusa: http://articles.latimes.com/2001/mar/29/news/cl-43936

Who the hell is doing the rehandle job?
I would have bought one of marko if you would have wa ;)

JPizzzle
05-20-2011, 03:01 PM
Oh, thanks for the articles, I've read one of them before, but the latimes one will be a good read. I've asked dave about a rehandle, i've also spoken to marko to see if he would be interested in trying a western, I know adam has had some good results as well. For some reason I've always prefered western's to wa's (unfortunately for my wallet). Thanks oivind!


The shig is awsome

Read this: http://***********************/2011/01/great-gyuto-shoot-out.html
and this: http://***********************/2011/01/forcing-patina-on-shigefusa-240-kasumi.html

I also love this article of Shigefusa: http://articles.latimes.com/2001/mar/29/news/cl-43936

Who the hell is doing the rehandle job?
I would have bought one of marko if you would have wa ;)

oivind_dahle
05-20-2011, 03:05 PM
You need both ho and wa!
Trust me, they are both awesome, and you use it after your own mood :)

Here is mine Shig:
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/gallery/56867/1291661507-1281987589-DSC_1042.JPG

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/gallery/56867/1291661496-1281987455-DSC_1055.JPG

watercrawl
05-20-2011, 03:17 PM
Is the performance diff worht the switch to carbon.....Do shigs live up to the hype

No for the performance, yes for the hype.

Whether they're worth it or not is something you need to resolve on your own.

Will it perform better than your ITK western handle? No! It would not cut better, nor retain an edge any better than your ITK. I have a kind of unique ITK version, but assuming the blade has similar properties to the other ITK gyuto's, the two would have similar geometry once you put a proper edge on the ITK (thin the shoulder a bit) and DT's AEB-L retains an edge with the best of them.

A Shigefusa, to me, is about having a knife completely hand crafted and still be among the best made kitchen knives on the planet. If you take into account the craftsmanship of a Shigefusa, western handled gyuto....then you start understanding the price. $800 wouldn't be a sneeze compared to the cost of a Kramer and would be in line with a true custom from many of the other makers. Carter would be in that range, DT would be for a mono-steel blade (educated guess on that one), Bill Burke would be over that, etc. You get the idea.

oivind_dahle
05-20-2011, 03:22 PM
IMO Shigefusa is a better cutter than DT ITK :) Far better :)
It also gets sharper :)

The only con on shigefusa is that it is reactive, but once patina is there its no problem. I love my shig :)
(yeah, I also got 2 DT ITK)

TB_London
05-20-2011, 04:05 PM
I have a 270 Wa ITK and thanks to Adam, a rehandled 240 western shig. They are both exceptional knives, in regards to appearance and performance. To say that one is far better than the other in terms of cutting performance i would debate, though this may highlight deficiencies in my sharpening or technique.
The shig is exceptionally well made and finished, and i feel really privileged to own and use it. I rotate it with a few other gyutos, i have more than i need but not as many as i want :), and it is such a pleasure to use. Although it is thicker than a lot of my knives it falls through everything effortlessly, keeps an edge for a respectable amount of time and now that i have forced a patina is relatively unreactive. The one thing i notice with mine is the cladding is soft, really soft, and it doesn't take much to put a few scratches in, which due to the direction of the finish, heel to tip, stand out. However the patina does a lot to conceal these.
The choice between a shig and a custom is difficult, and not a choice i would like to make.....
I'll try and post some pictures, but my photograpy is poor at best, so they will in no way capture the awesomeness :D

tk59
05-20-2011, 05:22 PM
IMO Shigefusa is a better cutter than DT ITK :) Far better :)
It also gets sharper :)
Frankly, the only part here there that I can really agree with is that the Shig might cut a bit better but not much better. This is really highly dependent on the edge you put on either of them.


The only con on shigefusa is that it is reactive, but once patina is there its no problem. I love my shig :)
(yeah, I also got 2 DT ITK)
This is a pretty big con, imo. I've tried the DarkHoek patina formula and mine still reacts. Perhaps, I'm just not skilled in the art of patination. If you get a Shig, get it because that's what it is, not because it will blow any other sub-$1k knife out of the water, because it doesn't.

JPizzzle
05-20-2011, 05:58 PM
ahhhh, what a tough spot.....ok. first, oivind, you shig is beautiful, wow.....I'm tempted to switch to a wa, hah. I'm pulled in many different ways at the moment about this.

Pros: Beautiful, handmade Japanese craftsmanship, great performance, "shigefusa" lore
Cons: First the headache of "reactivity," and I don't particularly like the patina look

ah, what a great dilemma to have I guess....If I don't grab a shig maybe i'll think of custom, thanks for the feedback so far guys!

JPizzzle
05-20-2011, 06:41 PM
well, now that i think about it maybe a patina isn't that bad, lol

Tristan
05-20-2011, 10:09 PM
Don't like reactivity, don't want to worry about patina, don't buy carbon. Or get a cheaper one and see how you feel first.

Nothing worse than buying an expensive knife you plan to use, only to have it sitting rusting away in a drawer. If you plan to buy it just to have it and sharpen it once in a while and use it to kill a patch of hair on your left forearm, or a stack of A4 paper you have lying around... then by all means?

stereo.pete
05-20-2011, 11:38 PM
I had the chance to handle a couple of Shigefusa's when I ate at Salty's and I have to admit they are incredibly well finished. Now at the same time so is my Devin Thomas ITK 270mm Gyuto. Shigefusa's have this lore about them being difficult to get, incredibly well finished and also amazing performers. I just ordered one and when I get mine I'll let you know what I think of it. I really don't think you can go wrong with a DT, a Shige, a Yoshikane, hell any number of great knives being manufactured in Japan and here in the states will keep you happy. Take some time, continue to do some research and then open up that wallet and have some fun.

P.S. Carbon is not a big deal at all. Keep in mind the retailers and manufactures are quick to add the scary disclaimer because they need to in order to protect themselves. I use carbon knives daily and as long as you wipe them dry after you finished cutting you will never have a rust problem.

TB_London
05-21-2011, 07:22 AM
With shigs it's not so much the rust as the black sludge.....
I have a couple of carbons and my shig was the worst offender until the darhoek patina was built

maxim
05-21-2011, 08:39 AM
I really dont know why all this fuzz about reactivity of Shigs... i never had this problems, and never build a patina on them ether. Just wash them with hot water and thats it !
About performance and cutting abilities i never meat a knife that cut so well !! and so thin behind the edge like Shigi is. Balance and thickness of the spine to the edge is just perfect and very hard to beat. So for me its just best performer out there !
And not to talk about they FF thats just flawless !

Marko Tsourkan
05-21-2011, 08:50 AM
One can find weaknesses in every knife, regardless how famous is the maker. It all depends how much they bother you.

M

Marko Tsourkan
05-21-2011, 10:17 AM
One of these days, I will do a rope cutting test for a Shigefusa gyuto to analyze an edge retention and steel toughness and compare it with knives made from other steels, such as 52100, AEB-L, W-2 and so forth. Hopefully this will help to dispel myths and take the discussion from the realm of personal opinions into a realm backed by data. I also will do a separated test for a cutting surface, to see how much eng-grain surface extends cutting a ability of a knife.

M

PS: Note that my preferences for Shigefusa over other makers is based on their superior grind, fit and finish, and not on other factors, such as sharpness, edge retention and so forth. I think these factors are necessary for a full picture.

oivind_dahle
05-21-2011, 10:32 AM
Marko: Feel free to compare it to my knives :) The Carter you can abuse when you get it in a week :)

MadMel
05-21-2011, 10:34 AM
One of these days, I will do a rope cutting test for a Shigefusa gyuto to analyze an edge retention and steel toughness and compare it with knives made from other steels, such as 52100, AEB-L, W-2 and so forth. Hopefully this will help to dispel myths and take the discussion from the realm of personal opinions into a realm backed by data. I also will do a separated test for a cutting surface, to see how much eng-grain surface extends cutting a ability of a knife.

M


PS: Note that my preferences for Shigefusa over other makers is based on their superior grind, fit and finish, and not on other factors, such as sharpness, edge retention and so forth. I think these factors are necessary for a full picture.


I eagerly await the results of the test :)

Marko Tsourkan
05-21-2011, 10:43 AM
I have a full plate of projects, so this will take a while, but I have been thinking about it for a while and have all equipment needed for a test.

I was told, a good steel will produce 1000+ (I have heard Bill Burke knives produce 2000+ cuts!) cuts before re-sharpening, so these kinds of tests will be very time intensive.

I also want to test how much stropping/touching up extends cutting ability of the knife.

Oivind - I think I want specifically to compare Shigefusa with 52100, and other tool steels that are obtainable in US. I will get to Carter and other Japanese makers at a later time when my plate is less full.
M

oivind_dahle
05-21-2011, 10:53 AM
Nice Marko

Im entering this with 4 knives. I really want to know what they preform :)

oivind_dahle
05-21-2011, 10:57 AM
Im in with

AEB-L (Devin)
52100 carbon steel core with 416 stainless steel sides (Burke)
1084 and 15N20 (Pierre)
White Core, Stainless laminated (Carter)

MadMel
05-21-2011, 11:14 AM
It's ok dude, take your time. It gives me more time to save up some $$ lol.

Marko Tsourkan
05-21-2011, 11:17 AM
I believe Bill tests his knvies, so you can get the performance info from him.

lancep
05-21-2011, 12:55 PM
I have a 240 Shigefusa (wa handle) and the ITK 240 wa. I don't know that I've used and sharpened them enough to have a bullet-proof opinion, but here's my experience to date. First, the Shigefusa is a much larger knife in the same 'size.' IIRC, I measured my Shigefusa at a cutting edge of 255 mm, whereas the ITK is less than 240; height of the Shigefusa is also substantially greater, so you're getting 'more' knife with the Shigefusa in the same 'size'. Side-by-side, the ITK almost looks like a sujihiki compared to the Shigefusa. [However, I think the western handled ITK do measure larger than their wa-handled brethren.]

I also find the Shigefusa seems to hold a better edge; I find the ITK edge tends to roll over a bit faster when hitting the cutting board. Perhaps this is just due to the original edge weakness from the hardening/tempering process of the ITK.

I find myself using the Shigefusa more often; the one thing, however, as noted by others, is the reactivity of the Shigefusa cladding. My wife and I have a favorite dish that uses alot of very thin cut cucumber; let me just say that the stink created by the Shigefusa when cutting cukes is amazing. Even after doing the darkhoek patination, the cukes still create a smell. No real problem with onions, but cukes..... So, for this dish I use the ITK. It it a very nice knife, great F&F, and I am glad to have it, but I prefer the Shigefusa for most tasks. However, I don't know that I would pay the freight for a western handled Shigefusa, as the upcharge is huge. I would recommend trying a Shigefusa wa, if you love the blade then you can sell it (or not!) if you really want a western handled version.

Cadillac J
05-21-2011, 01:10 PM
I find the ITK edge tends to roll over a bit faster when hitting the cutting board. Perhaps this is just due to the original edge weakness from the hardening/tempering process of the ITK.

Have you sharpened your DT? How would you rate your sharpening proficiency?

The only reason I ask is because the last thing I would of said the ITKs do is roll their edges...and that's even when really thinning it out.

rockbox
05-21-2011, 01:26 PM
Have you sharpened your DT? How would you rate your sharpening proficiency?

The only reason I ask is because the last thing I would of said the ITKs do is roll their edges...and that's even when really thinning it out.

+1

I do know that the new ITKs are a lot thinner than the first batch but I don't see why the edge would roll. Where the knifes sharpened at the same angle?

lancep
05-21-2011, 01:44 PM
I have maintained the factory angle on both of the knives; I have not taken them down to any lower grits, have just used a Chocera 10k for touch ups, plus stropping on HA green solution on leather.

Again, it may be the ITK suffers from edge weakness due to the hardening/tempering process; the edge has definitely rolled in spots, since I can see it in the proper light and also feel it with my fingertip.

When I get the time, I may take the ITK down to a 1k or so level and work it back up.

My sharpening skills are, IMO, quite good though no doubt below those of some here. I do leather working, which requires very sharp knives and frequent re-sharpening, so I get a fair amount of practice.

ravichopra
05-21-2011, 01:46 PM
There seems to be a huge variety of experience here. I've got a 240 western handle kasumi Shigefusa gyuto. I've built up little more than natural patina from regular use and have almost no reactivity issues at all. Whether with onions, acidic fruit (grapefruit, lemons, limes), or cukes I get no black gunk. I do sometimes get a little reactive orange/brown gunk built up on the sides of the blade, but it cleans off easily and none sticks to the food or affects smell or taste.

For care, I just wash the knife off with hot water and soap, dry it thoroughly, and usually give it a quick wipe with camellia oil before storing in the block.

I can't comment on DT's knives (other than to say they're gorgeously photogenic and have a marvelous rep), but the Shigefusa has been nothing but a joy to use. While thick at the bolster it has a famous distal-taper and thins to a whisper towards the blade edge. It takes a frighteningly sharp edge VERY easily, has beautiful balance and weight in the hand and is easy to maintain. I finally talked my wife (who typically uses MAC pros) into trying it and she didn't want to put it down despite it being a lot longer and heavier than she's accustomed to.

I like it so much I'm taking one of Marko's 150 wa-pettys.

Cadillac J
05-21-2011, 02:27 PM
When I get the time, I may take the ITK down to a 1k or so level and work it back up.

My sharpening skills are, IMO, quite good

If you feel comfortable in your skills, my suggestion would be to start at your coarse stone and grind your own edge into your ITK through your regular progression--it will turn into a much different beast than it currently is, will be a much better comparison point to your Shig, and you shouldn't have any issues with the edge rolling.

I had one from the first batch that were a bit thicker, and I thinned behind the edge which very significantly improved cutting performance without sacrificing toughness.

stereo.pete
05-21-2011, 04:43 PM
If you feel comfortable in your skills, my suggestion would be to start at your coarse stone and grind your own edge into your ITK through your regular progression--it will turn into a much different beast than it currently is, will be a much better comparison point to your Shig, and you shouldn't have any issues with the edge rolling.

I had one from the first batch that were a bit thicker, and I thinned behind the edge which very significantly improved cutting performance without sacrificing toughness.

I currently own the ITK that Jarrod is talking about and I can attest to the cutting performance of the knife. It is the sharpest knife out of my collection and continues to amaze me with the edge that Jarrod put on it.

EdipisReks
05-21-2011, 06:24 PM
i haven't had a huge problem with oxidation on my Shigefusa. i put a semi-mirror polish on mine, though, which probably helped. i love the knife, especially now that i have it ground to my satisfaction. no idea how it cuts compared to the ITK. i choose it over my Konosuke and my Mizuno, both of which i have sharpened to the same keen-ness. it feels right, cutting. my only remaining stainless gyuto is my Hattori FH, and all of my carbon knives get sharper than that. no idea how AEB-L compares to well tempered VG10.

JPizzzle
05-21-2011, 08:23 PM
OK, so this thread took off since I last checked, hah. Thanks everyone for the advice so far, it's been real informative. I'm thinking of possibly going with a wa since they look amazing with Marko's handles, sig cheaper, and it has that Japanese look-if that makes any sense, more so then the western. Does anyone know if the kitaeji has a different reaction then the kasumi to foods. How does the damascus hold up to a patina-does it continue to show through? Also, any opinions on how these compare to Carter's? I'm asking since i know CKTG will be getting the carters in soon in white steel. Thanks again,

mainaman
05-21-2011, 08:37 PM
Shigefusa steel is better than White IME, better edge retention and gets just as sharp.

tk59
05-21-2011, 09:10 PM
I find the ITK edge tends to roll over a bit faster when hitting the cutting board. That's interesting. I found the same thing the first couple of times I sharpened. I was actually pretty disappointed in that respect. I really haven't had the same issue since (although it's been a while. i've been too busy testing other knives.).

tk59
05-21-2011, 09:12 PM
Shigefusa steel is better than White IME, better edge retention and gets just as sharp.

In terms of edge retention, I'd have to agree. I can't really tell a difference in edge keeness, either.
With regard to VG10, I've tried several different flavors and it never really measures up in the keeness category with other good steels.

Marko Tsourkan
05-21-2011, 09:39 PM
In terms of edge retention, I'd have to agree. I can't really tell a difference in edge keeness, either.
With regard to VG10, I've tried several different flavors and it never really measures up in the keeness category with other good steels.

Anybody wants to send their knife for a steel analysis so we can finally solve the mastery of 'spicy' steel Iwasaki so found of? :)

M

tk59
05-21-2011, 09:42 PM
Anybody wants to send their knife for a steel analysis so we can finally solve the mastery of 'spicy' steel Iwasaki so found of? :)

M

I'd love to, if it doesn't cost too much. I'd rather give my $$ to knife makers/peddlers at this stage. So much to try out!! You have a place in mind?

watercrawl
05-21-2011, 10:08 PM
I found the damascus more reactive than the material used in the kasumi cladding. The kitaeji would rust before I was finished using it. Actually turned orange in under 30 minutes.

RRLOVER
05-21-2011, 10:34 PM
Also, any opinions on how these compare to Carter's? I'm asking since i know CKTG will be getting the carters in soon in white steel. Thanks again,

I have owned 5 shigi's and the carter HG in superblue that I own out performs any of them.Edge retension is just a silly subject for a home cook like myself,it take me way to long to dull a knife:slaphead:

Marko Tsourkan
05-21-2011, 10:39 PM
I have owned 5 shigi's and the carter HG in superblue that I own out performs any of them.Edge retension is just a silly subject for a home cook like myself,it take me way to long to dull a knife:slaphead:

I agree. However, a good performing knife is a like a good performing car. You might have to put us with 65 m/h limit, but you want to know that it can go 130m/p or faster.

For knives edge retention, you have to ask pros. Collin (Nilloc) is a good reference for testing performance knives.

I will be doing a test for Shigefusa some time later. It will be bases on Wayne Goddard rope cutting test to measure edge retain-ability and toughness of the blade. The blade will be sharpened to 3-5K and the rope will probably be .5".



M

RRLOVER
05-21-2011, 10:49 PM
I have owned 5 shigi's and the carter HG in superblue that I own out performs any of them.Edge retension is just a silly subject for a home cook like myself,it take me way to long to dull a knife:slaphead:


It is also not fair to compare a shigi to a carter,that's an apple to oranges comparison.Like comparing Italian sports cars to german sport cars.

Andrew H
05-21-2011, 11:34 PM
Just curious, what did the carter cost you?

JPizzzle
05-22-2011, 12:57 AM
The only thing that has me concerned at this point is the reactivity. A knife turning orange while your still using it is a little too much of a headache IMO....

mainaman
05-22-2011, 01:23 AM
The only thing that has me concerned at this point is the reactivity. A knife turning orange while your still using it is a little too much of a headache IMO....

I have not had this problem with mine, but if you are worried about ractivity then you need stainless or semistainless steel knives

oivind_dahle
05-22-2011, 06:40 AM
Im going to do a blind test on several friends. Im not sure but I keep believe that a cucumber or tomato taste different when I use my Shigefusa Nakiri compared to a stainless knife .)

I love Shigefusa, but if anyone could get him to make a stainless knife I would be on that list :)

MadMel
05-22-2011, 09:16 AM
I love Shigefusa, but if anyone could get him to make a stainless knife I would be on that list :)

+1 million on that lol.

Marko Tsourkan
05-22-2011, 11:02 AM
Heat treat is different for stainless steel, so eyeballing and charcoal furnace won't work. Also, Shigefusa only does clad knives. It has to do with their process and use of sen. Shaping with sen requires very soft cladding, though there are some very soft stainless steels.

In short, don't expect a stainless knife or even a semi stainless from Shigefusa any time soon. With their wait time measured in months, I don't think they have any need or incentive to dabble in other steels.

M

MadMel
05-22-2011, 11:35 AM
So they do have stainless clad options?

tk59
05-22-2011, 12:11 PM
So they do have stainless clad options?

No.

I have a 180mm (172 mm cutting edge) kitaeji nakiri that has been passed around a couple times but came to me essentially new, according to a long time forum member. I have since thinned a bit behind the edge. The steel is awesome. The cladding is attractive but reactive to the point that it is a PITA to use (Just now I discovered hit has a rusty fingerprint from the last time I took it out a few days ago. The handle is unremarkable but nice. The spine and choil are perfect and show an exquisite taper. The spine going from 4.15mm over the heel to 1.31 right at the end. The choil going down to 0.6 mm 4 mm behind the edge. This is quite thin behind the edge. The problem is the following: the thickness 4mm behind the edge increases from 0.6 mm rapidly to 0.91 mm and stays there for more than half of the blade length. Around 2/5 of the way up the blade from the edge, the thickness is 2.12 mm on the choil tapering rapidly to 1.80 mm half way and 1.75 at the very end of the blade. Basically, what I'm saying is there is a sizeable lump near the end of the blade on the edge side of the half height mark. This and the thickness behind the edge anywhere other than the choil, makes it a below average performer in my kitchen in every respect except sharpness and edge retention.

DrNaka
05-22-2011, 01:44 PM
In fact Shigefusa grind the high carbon side (the back side of traditional single bevel knives) with Sen before heat treatment. Link (http://hides-export.blogspot.com/2011/05/shigefusas-workshop.html)

About the steel they use.
They say official it is a "spicy" Swedish steel. It was selected as best steel available for cutlery about half century ago by Iwasaki san.
The "rumor" is that it has similar chemical composition as White paper 1.

The experience using only this steel for 5 decades makes it special.

JPizzzle
05-22-2011, 07:02 PM
Thanks for the advice everyone.
Although, I feel that the craftsmanship and performance of the shig would be superb, I just don't think I can deal with the reactivity since it will be used fairly often. I'm a bit deflated at this realization, but I don't want to feel like using my other knives because of the clean up, smell, and so on. I want to thank everyone for their patience and help, especially the vendors i've been dealing with. Hopefully I'll find something great down the line that fits what i'm looking for. Thanks all,

Mattias504
05-22-2011, 07:08 PM
^^^ = Heiji semi-stainless.....

Lefty
05-22-2011, 07:15 PM
If I just cane to that realization, I'd be calling Jon about this knife right away:
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/fujiwara-teruyasu/fujiwara-maboroshi-no-meito-240mm-western-gytuo.html

EdipisReks
05-22-2011, 07:45 PM
once again, i've had no more reactivity issues than i've had with any other carbon knives. it has completely not been a big deal. it's such an awesome knife.

Lefty
05-22-2011, 07:48 PM
Carbon isn't for everyone, or every situation. Stainless clad or semi-stainless is a good compromise.

mainaman
05-22-2011, 07:51 PM
Thanks for the advice everyone.
Although, I feel that the craftsmanship and performance of the shig would be superb, I just don't think I can deal with the reactivity since it will be used fairly often. I'm a bit deflated at this realization, but I don't want to feel like using my other knives because of the clean up, smell, and so on. I want to thank everyone for their patience and help, especially the vendors i've been dealing with. Hopefully I'll find something great down the line that fits what i'm looking for. Thanks all,
as others have posted there there is no reactivity issue more than any other carbon knife, at least with mine.
There is no smell either, but there is certainly some maintenance involved as it is a carbon steel knife.

tk59
05-22-2011, 08:02 PM
It's the only one I've had problems with other than the cheapies like Kanemasa.

+1 to the Heiji semi-stainless. Love those knives.

EdipisReks
05-22-2011, 08:19 PM
Carbon isn't for everyone, or every situation. Stainless clad or semi-stainless is a good compromise.

i sold almost all of my stainless as soon as i got my first carbon gyuto (i kep the FH just because i like the knife a lot). it takes very little to keep carbon working properly.

Seb
05-22-2011, 08:32 PM
Doesn't Shigefusa offer a Kasumi wa-gyuto? Is that carbon clad too?

Lefty
05-22-2011, 08:32 PM
I'm a fan of both, but many people shy away from them, and perhaps with good reason. We don't really know their habits or level of OCD, until they've been here a while.
Meh....

mattrud
05-22-2011, 08:35 PM
i sold almost all of my stainless as soon as i got my first carbon gyuto (i kep the FH just because i like the knife a lot). it takes very little to keep carbon working properly.

Same here, I still have some really nice stainless knives, but so many of my knives over the years have moved to carbon, the vast majority actually

Pensacola Tiger
05-22-2011, 09:15 PM
Doesn't Shigefusa offer a Kasumi wa-gyuto? Is that carbon clad too?

Yes, it is. That's the knife that Harald (Darkhoek) forced a patina on to fix the reactivity.

Seb
05-22-2011, 09:46 PM
Thanks, Rick. Good to know.

JPizzzle
05-22-2011, 11:05 PM
If I just cane to that realization, I'd be calling Jon about this knife right away:
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/fujiwara-teruyasu/fujiwara-maboroshi-no-meito-240mm-western-gytuo.html

Anyone know how the fuji compares/contrasts to the shig? Dunno much about white 1 other then that Carter prefers it. I would deff get the handle replaced tho

tk59
05-22-2011, 11:44 PM
Anyone know how the fuji compares/contrasts to the shig? Dunno much about white 1 other then that Carter prefers it. I would deff get the handle replaced tho

The Fujiwara white 1 is a very nice steel in terms of ease of sharpening. It also holds it's edge pretty well. I have a 210 suji I use mainly for meat trimming, etc. against a poly board. These knives are on the thick side but they are thin where it counts making them excellent cutters, otherwise. I haven't used mine lately for anything other than shaving. It can take a mind-blowing edge so damn easy.

JPizzzle
05-22-2011, 11:52 PM
Looks interesting, rustic. Can't seem to find heiji, sold out on the one site.

tk59
05-23-2011, 12:01 AM
Yeah. They are definitely not lookers and fit and finish isn't the best either. I wouldn't say they have defects but the guy clearly makes no nonesense knives that love to cut. As for Heiji, I know Jon is planning to have some in stock for his grand opening in a couple of weeks. The Heiji semistainless steel is probably my favorite all around steel just ahead of the KonHD/TKC. It's a nice heftier gyuto although it is not chunky, imo. I'm getting a petty as soon as they become available. I never thought I'd drop that kind of cash on a petty but there you go.

JBroida
05-23-2011, 12:16 AM
Yeah. They are definitely not lookers and fit and finish isn't the best either. I wouldn't say they have defects but the guy clearly makes no nonesense knives that love to cut. As for Heiji, I know Jon is planning to have some in stock for his grand opening in a couple of weeks. The Heiji semistainless steel is probably my favorite all around steel just ahead of the KonHD/TKC. It's a nice heftier gyuto although it is not chunky, imo. I'm getting a petty as soon as they become available. I never thought I'd drop that kind of cash on a petty but there you go.

a couple of weeks makes it sound so soon... you're scaring me here... i still have furniture to buy ;)

Noodle Soup
05-23-2011, 12:22 AM
I made clam chowder tonight from fresh dug Pacific razor clams. Used my 180mm Shigefusa for my utility blade. Mostly it diced up boiled potatoes, peeled an onion, diced a couple of stalks of celery and diced the clams in to small pieces. I don't stop cooking to clean my knives as the dish is what I'm interested in not the tools used to make it. Once the chowder was about ready I went back to the knife and found the surface of the cladding metal pretty much all reddish orange with stain. The actual cutting edge metal was still very clean.
I can live with that but it doesn't look like it is going to patina into anything very attractive using my normal kitchen SOP.

Lefty
05-23-2011, 12:30 AM
Yeah. They are definitely not lookers and fit and finish isn't the best either. I wouldn't say they have defects but the guy clearly makes no nonesense knives that love to cut. As for Heiji, I know Jon is planning to have some in stock for his grand opening in a couple of weeks. The Heiji semistainless steel is probably my favorite all around steel just ahead of the KonHD/TKC. It's a nice heftier gyuto although it is not chunky, imo. I'm getting a petty as soon as they become available. I never thought I'd drop that kind of cash on a petty but there you go.

The thin where it counts is EXACTLY what made me think this is a knife to use. I love the looks, but that's just me!
Shigis and Heijis aren't exactly waifs either.

mainaman
05-23-2011, 12:39 AM
The thin where it counts is EXACTLY what made me think this is a knife to use. I love the looks, but that's just me!
Shigis and Heijis aren't exactly waifs either.

but the geometry of Shigefusa is top notch and that makes huge difference.

Lefty
05-23-2011, 01:27 AM
I agree based on their reputation. I really haven't read anything negative about their grind, geometry or taper. I thought perhaps the one I mentioned might compare fairly reasonably.

Mattias504
05-23-2011, 02:18 AM
If you are talking about Heiji, it is mighty as can be but I find that the grind is so awesome that its nimble and sharp as hell. It definitely has cutting power. I've really been using mine a lot at work recently and it stays sharp forever. Every once in a while I touch it up on a Chosera 5k and I strop often and it just comes back to life. Really awesome stuff.

JPizzzle
05-23-2011, 09:22 AM
i will deff be checking out the heiji, unless some beautiful western comes along in the mean time, or I get pulled in by the carter cktg knife. I just don't think i'll be crazy about the handle on the Carter, but we'll see. Eitherway it'll keep it's resale value just in case

DrNaka
05-23-2011, 11:31 PM
Im going to do a blind test on several friends. Im not sure but I keep believe that a cucumber or tomato taste different when I use my Shigefusa Nakiri compared to a stainless knife .)

I love Shigefusa, but if anyone could get him to make a stainless knife I would be on that list :)

I think the blind test has been done for decades/centuries in Japan.
If a high carbon knife makes smell the food every food in a Kaiseki restaurant would smell bad.

If you take care of the knife like a Kaiseki chef you do not have any problems.