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View Full Version : Question on AEB-L (Artifex) in sharpening and edge retention [vs Forschner]



GConcept999
06-03-2013, 09:31 PM
Hi all, I have a few questions about sharpening AEB-L steel compared to Victorinox Forschner steel. I recently bought a Richmond Artifex 240mm. I am a prep cook for a high volume catering company and I do a lot of meat prep on plastic cutting boards.

I am having a bit of trouble sharpening and developing a burr on the Artifex. I got a combination sharpening stone from a family member, which may be a budget stone from Chinatown. It seems to develop a burr easily on a Forschner. Is this normal? From what I've researched, AEB-L seems to be an easy to sharpen stainless steel. Is AEB-L suppose to be harder to sharpen than the Forschner steel? And do I seem to have an extremely slow cutting stone.

The Artifex does get sharp after a long time of sharpening; however, after a full day of preping both the Artifex and Forschner gets dull, but the Forschner seem to feel a bit sharper. Would this be mainly due to the natural thinness of the stamped Forschner blade?

I do plan on purchasing quality stones, but have yet to jump the gun; I'm trying to figure this out first.

Thanks in advance!

tk59
06-03-2013, 09:37 PM
AEB-L should develop a burr quite easily and the edge retention should be better regardless of preparation. It sounds like you are sharpening at a steeper angle than the stock edge and you are only abrading the shoulder above the edge, as opposed to the actual edge. Either keep on going until you establish new bevels or increase the blade to stone angle. Forschners lose their edge quite rapidly for a lot of reasons but mostly the steel is softer than most of the steel we talk about here.

ThEoRy
06-03-2013, 11:26 PM
Paint the edge with a permanent marker so you can see where you are hitting it on the stone.

franzb69
06-03-2013, 11:29 PM
pix of the edge would help probably on diagnosing what the problem could be.

Benuser
06-04-2013, 08:57 PM
Here a picture of the blade's geometry out of the box, as published in a very artifex-friendly forum:

http://postimg.org/image/
cma6nezdv/

The blade is so terribly thick behind the edge, that one will need a lot of force to actually cut with it. All that steel will cause a lot of friction. That's why a very thick edge may be less durable than a thinner one.

Benuser
06-04-2013, 09:04 PM
This link might actually work

http://postimg.org/image/cma6nezdv/


http://s21.postimg.org/mjl7gh6zr/Artifex_Before1.jpg

JohnnyChance
06-04-2013, 09:15 PM
Good god! Nice yo-deba.

SpikeC
06-04-2013, 09:16 PM
Holey shirt!

GConcept999
06-04-2013, 09:27 PM
When the website says it's a convex grind and the edge is V at 15 degrees, does that mean the primary cutting bevel is convex or the secondary bevel (above the cutting edge) is convex?

I have used the magic marker trick on the first sharpen to make sure I was sharpening at the 15 degree factory angle. I did the same yesterday to make sure I was still sharpening at the same angle, and it seems to be the case.

I'll try to take and upload some pictures tomorrow when I have better lighting.

Dave Martell
06-04-2013, 09:41 PM
Obviously this knife is thick as a brick and bricks don't sharpen up easily plus you've got AEB-L which might mean it's not so easy to sharpen if the heat treat isn't tweaked to perfection. FYI, AEB-L might not be a great steel for mass production.

Anyway, what I see you needing to do (barring returning the knife) is to get some really coarse stones, mark your edge so that you can see where you're hitting at, and then grind from the top of the factory bevel down to the cutting edge and burr formation.

Keep in mind that this knife will never perform as a thin knife will, if you want performance (aside from lobster splitting performance - you've already got that covered) look at almost anything else talked about here.

franzb69
06-04-2013, 11:28 PM
how about we help the guy first?

Phip
06-04-2013, 11:38 PM
"if you want performance (aside from lobster splitting performance - you've already got that covered) look at almost anything else talked about here."

That's hilarious, Dave, but the poor soul inquiring has no idea of the histories here.

My dear GCconcept, you've been duped. What you hoped to get--a high performing knife at a bargain price--does not exist. Pay the appropriate dues and get what's needed here. Check this forum or FF for "first knives for commercial/pro use" and see what the archieves hold for you. I think you'll find things like Carbonext coming up consistently. Get one. They won't let you down.

GConcept999
06-06-2013, 03:44 PM
"if you want performance (aside from lobster splitting performance - you've already got that covered) look at almost anything else talked about here."

That's hilarious, Dave, but the poor soul inquiring has no idea of the histories here.

My dear GCconcept, you've been duped. What you hoped to get--a high performing knife at a bargain price--does not exist. Pay the appropriate dues and get what's needed here. Check this forum or FF for "first knives for commercial/pro use" and see what the archieves hold for you. I think you'll find things like Carbonext coming up consistently. Get one. They won't let you down.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I take it that the Artifex has a convex grind at the primary cutting edge from my brief web research. I also feel that I have an extremely slow cutting stone. With that combination, I think I am sharpening with a flat grind and not hitting the edge. I plan on purchasing the Bester/Rika combo, thin down the blade, and put a flat grind on the edge at 15 degrees (60/40 asymmetry) and go on from there.

Phip, I have done my research on high performing knife at bargain price, and it did come down to between the Artifex and Carbonext. However, on another forum, it was recommended to me to get the Artifex due to the better F&F and ready-to-cut profile compared to the Carbonext, which needed to be reprofiled and sharpened. I also learned that the Artifex carried the French Sabatier geometry profile, which I was very interested in trying. Finally, given that I was still a beginner sharpener (I have seen many sharpening videos on Youtube, examples: Mark Richmond, Dave Martell, Murray Carter, Jon Broida), Artifex made the most sense and was also at a lower price.

Anyone know know how AEB-L compares to Carbonext in terms of edge taking and edge retention? I was never able to find the answer to that.

"Keep in mind that this knife will never perform as a thin knife will, if you want performance (aside from lobster splitting performance - you've already got that covered) look at almost anything else talked about here."
Dave, what do you mean by performance compared to a thin knife? Like laser thin or Masamoto KS (or typical Japanese knife) thin.
Also looking at specs, the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto seems to have the same spine thickness, but taller blade. Just by profile, is it just because the blade is thinner at the cutting edge that it would perform better?

chinacats
06-06-2013, 04:27 PM
AEB-L or any steel for that matter is only relevant if the person doing the ht/tempering knows what they are doing. Done by small makers one blade at the time it can be a great steel--as someone mentioned recently though it is probably not a very good steel for mass production. The other forum steered you wrong my friend--so sorry. Sabatier profile is copied by many makers and they each have their own interpretation of it. You'll find something you like but as said above, you get what you pay for...

Again, the same steel produced by different makers will act very different. Buying from a trusted maker is so much more important than buying any specific steel. Profile is a different story, you must find one that you like. Poor geometry and likely poor h/t are more of what you are dealing with here.

Cheers

Pensacola Tiger
06-06-2013, 05:05 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, I take it that the Artifex has a convex grind at the primary cutting edge from my brief web research.

The cutting edge of the Artifex is not convex, it is 'v'-shaped. The grind of the blade face is slightly convexed.



I also feel that I have an extremely slow cutting stone. With that combination, I think I am sharpening with a flat grind and not hitting the edge.

Paint the edge with a Magic Marker and use a loupe to see if you are hitting it when you sharpen.


I plan on purchasing the Bester/Rika combo, thin down the blade, and put a flat grind on the edge at 15 degrees (60/40 asymmetry) and go on from there.

Getting a better set of stones is a good idea. If you intend to thin the knife behind the edge, get the Beston 500 as well. You will spend a lot of time and effort trying to thin with a Bester 1200.

As far as edge retention is concerned, you may not be removing the burr entirely, and the resulting wire edge may be the cause of your edge retention issue. Try drawing the edge through a cork, hard felt or even a block of soft wood to remove the burr.

Rick

Dave Martell
06-06-2013, 05:15 PM
"Keep in mind that this knife will never perform as a thin knife will, if you want performance (aside from lobster splitting performance - you've already got that covered) look at almost anything else talked about here."
Dave, what do you mean by performance compared to a thin knife? Like laser thin or Masamoto KS (or typical Japanese knife) thin.
Also looking at specs, the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto seems to have the same spine thickness, but taller blade. Just by profile, is it just because the blade is thinner at the cutting edge that it would perform better?


I mean almost any gytuo that is talked about here regularly (like the Carbonext that you were unfortunately advised against buying) will perform almost all tasks better than the Artifex will and that's because the Artifex is super thick.

Also, you mentioned about getting the Bester 1200x/Suehiro Rika 5k combo, I'm going to say that the Bester 1200x (while a stone I love) won't do squat for this knife, you're going to need some serious cutting power to get this worked out. I'll leave the specific stone recommendations to others, I just wanted to note that the 1200x isn't going to cut it here.

stevenStefano
06-06-2013, 06:01 PM
Phip, I have done my research on high performing knife at bargain price, and it did come down to between the Artifex and Carbonext. However, on another forum, it was recommended to me to get the Artifex due to the better F&F and ready-to-cut profile compared to the Carbonext, which needed to be reprofiled and sharpened.


Was this on the CKTG forum? If so that's basically lies and it makes me pretty angry. The Carbonext has a poor OOTB edge but it doesn't need reprofiled and the fit and finish is great for the price. In terms of edge retention between the Carbonext and AEB-L I think they will be fairly similar. AEB-L is common but not all of it is equal, some is great, some is poor. Comparing a Carbonext to the Artifex, the Carbonext would probably have better edge retention I'd say

TB_London
06-06-2013, 06:05 PM
The choil shot looks like a Sab bolster.

Asking the right questions is one thing, asking the right people is another. Having a forum tied to one specific vendor will see their products advised others more often than not. Asking yourself why someone gives the advice they do is sadly something that should not be forgotten when you are unfamiliar with the people advising you.

On a TV shopping network everyone that phones in has great things to say about the products....

To make you're knife perform well I would draw a line about 15mm up from the edge all the way down each side and then abrade the shoulder of the bevel until you have a big wide bevel from that line down to the edge. I'd then add a small microbevel and use it for a bit. If it still feels too thick, draw a line 5mm above the old one and abrade up to there and try again.

This will take a coarse stone, time and skill. A quicker result can be had with a belt grinder and an experienced operator.

Good luck. If it were me I'd return it and try something else. Cktg does stock some decent knives so if you can exchange it l is not lost

mhlee
06-06-2013, 06:10 PM
Was this on the CKTG forum? If so that's basically lies and it makes me pretty angry. The Carbonext has a poor OOTB edge but it doesn't need reprofiled and the fit and finish is great for the price. In terms of edge retention between the Carbonext and AEB-L I think they will be fairly similar. AEB-L is common but not all of it is equal, some is great, some is poor. Comparing a Carbonext to the Artifex, the Carbonext would probably have better edge retention I'd say

That's laughable that the CarboNext needs to be reprofiled. It could use a sharpening, but reprofiling?

I bought a regular (not extra sharp) CarboNext a few months ago to compare it side to side with the Suisin Western Inox. I didn't really care for the knife, but its good for what it is at the price, and certainly doesn't need to be reprofiled. I liked the profile just fine. And, although it wasn't very sharp, the OOTB edge was fine to be used right away. I really want to now try out an unmodified Artifex now and compare it to my CarboNext.

GG - Where are you in NorCal? Bay Area?

mhlee
06-06-2013, 06:16 PM
how about we help the guy first?

What do you recommend, Franz?

GConcept999
06-06-2013, 08:17 PM
I have tried taking pictures, but either the lighting or camera is not good enough to see the edge

@Pensacola Tiger - I will get a loupe to see more closely at what I'm sharpening.

I was actually planning on the Beston/Bester/Suehiro Rika combination set found on certain websites. Not sure if I want to invest in a diamond plate at the moment because of the price, and am unsure of which brand.

Also, I've been deburring on wine cork, with about 3 light strokes.

@stevenStefano & @mhlee- The mentioned comment was not on CKTG forum. I may have been mistaken on the definition of reprofiling/profiling, or is there different interpretations on the word?

Based on what I'm constantly reading is that AEB-L does seem to depend on the heat-treatment of the maker, and is probably better and more consistent with a craftsman that makes the AEB-L blade in small volumes.

mhlee
06-06-2013, 09:21 PM
Profile means the shape of the knife and includes the shape of the edge. Geometry refers to the grind of the knife - from the edge to spine or vice versa. "Reprofiling" usually means changing the curvature of the edge.

You may also want to try stropping on newspaper to see if that helps get rid of the burr.

franzb69
06-06-2013, 10:58 PM
What do you recommend, Franz?

send it back, get another knife. the return policy should help with that.

or if they won't take it back

then i'd rather keep tweaking that knife til i get it right. so i'd thin it down. if i'm too scared to thin it down like a new user would be (not that i've proven my sharpening skills or thinning skills here), i'd send it out to someone more knowledgeable and more skilled than myself so it gets to work right. at least to someone who's willing to work on it.

beyond that, i dunno.

Patatas Bravas
06-07-2013, 06:56 AM
how about we help the guy first?

+1 Yes, sometimes people come on with a request for advice, but then the discussion goes its own way and the question is never really answered.

Mrmnms
06-07-2013, 12:13 PM
How bout thinning the knife at 10 to 12 degrees starting with a coarse stone and follow Rick's (
Pensacola Tiger) suggestions. Sounds like a plan to me.

Duckfat
06-07-2013, 05:47 PM
Was this on the CKTG forum? If so that's basically lies and it makes me pretty angry.

I've seen this same spiel repeated ad-nauseum on Chef Talk.

Dave

tomsch
07-15-2013, 12:45 PM
I have a 210mm Artifex that I use as a beater/prep knife. I do like the profile and how it handles but the primary grind is pretty bad. The AEB-L steel is also rather hard at least on my knife. In order to get this knife to perform I had to go to a course DMT stone and thinned between the secondary and primary bevels. It cuts much better but it is a work in progress since I'm still working on the thinning to see how far it needs to go. The secondary bevel is currently sitting at ~15 degrees per side but it has taken a lot of thinning work to get it to perform even at 15 degrees. My 240mm Gesshin Ginga (White #2) kills it in cutting ability but I'm determined to make the Artifex perform so I can see how the AEB-L holds an edge.

GConcept999
07-15-2013, 01:43 PM
Thanks for the replies. I got a Bester 1k and Suehiro Rika 5k. It is able to sharpen a bevel much better, and I am able to feel the burrs forming much easier now.

I am still looking to get a coarse stone to thin the blade. I hope to find something on the B/S/T section. Or I may get a Naniwa Omura #150. Are there recommendations against using this stone for thinning? I understand that it dishes quickly, but I like the idea that it cuts fast and gives a good polish for it to jump right into a medium stone. If I were to use it, I would try to make use of the ends of the stone, and flatten on drywall screen periodically through the process.

Benuser
07-15-2013, 02:05 PM
When a lot of steel is to be removed as in your case, you may consider the use of coarse sandpaper (P120) to start with.

zitangy
07-15-2013, 02:17 PM
Thanks for the replies. I got a Bester 1k and Suehiro Rika 5k. It is able to sharpen a bevel much better, and I am able to feel the burrs forming much easier now.

I am still looking to get a coarse stone to thin the blade. I hope to find something on the B/S/T section. Or I may get a Naniwa Omura #150. Are there recommendations against using this stone for thinning? I understand that it dishes quickly, but I like the idea that it cuts fast and gives a good polish for it to jump right into a medium stone. If I were to use it, I would try to make use of the ends of the stone, and flatten on drywall screen periodically through the process.


All is not lost.... you have an opportunity to bring life to this knife..

AS mentioned by TB London ( way aboveposys ) you may take that route. At times, I use course sand paper.. cheap and affordable enough.. IT takes time but you will get it there.. Whether it is stone or sand paper, they both will abrade..

Personally, I wld say from the edge.. 1/2 to 3/4 inch thinning all the way. It can be further refined with smoother sand paper. I wld commence with say a 220Grit sand paper adn will possibly go down lower ( possible 150grit) it is too slow for me and at least refine the scratches with at least 600 grit adn proceed to 1000 grit shld you desire to beautify and polish the knife.

### place it real flat and use a backing on the sandpaper to prevent cutting yr fingers. A wooden block, cork or piece of rubber will be fine. Cut the sandpaper to teh desired width . But I rather do it bare with the thumb so that I can feel the metal.

as for sharpening.. as above. Get 2 angles / planes to meet and if it is thin enough.. ( do what it takes to achieve this adn it will be sharp) it will cut beautifully..I wld not be too concerned abt the 15 degrees that you mentioned a few times. You may have to go lower (if it is that thick) and thus have a wider bevel on the edge.

All is not lost and you wld most probably learn to thin behind the edge..

Persevere and you will get there pretty soon.

have fun and watch the fingers. Safety first....

rgds
d

euphorbioid
07-15-2013, 03:10 PM
Dave recommended this stone (can be found here: http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=80081 as well as other places) as a rapidly cutting coarse stone. I use it to thin double knives and it is particularly useful to flatten the bevel of traditional Japanese knives. You will also need some way to flatten any stone you use. Good luck.

GConcept999
07-15-2013, 03:48 PM
What does backing on sandpaper mean? Does it mean a raised surface like a piece of 2x4 block of wood?

How many sheets of sandpaper do you guys think the thinning project would take assuming I cut them to ~4.5in x 11in size? I don't want to have to spend more than what it would be for a coarse stone (a reason why I was eyeing the Naniwa Omura #150 was that it is fairly affordable for the size).
Would thinning a knife like this kill a diamond plate like DMT XXC or Atoma 140?

Does it have to be wet sanded, or is dry sanding okay, followed by wet sanding to get rid of the deep scratches? Briefly searching, it does not seem like 120 grit wet/dry sandpaper is readily available

Hmm, yes, I've heard of the pink brick, so many choices.

Benuser
07-15-2013, 04:31 PM
P120 sandpaper should easily be found in automotive hardware stores. I use a type of it with linen backing, it will last forever, but loses some abrasion power of course. Two standard sheets should do, I guess. Cost $1 per sheet. I use them on a wooden cigar box, to have a slightly softer backing and a setup similar to a sharpening stone, a little easier when you work around the heel. Wet or dry: when you don't use a lot of pressure it doesn't really matter, IMHO. Verify the temperature, though. Use edge trailing strokes only.

panda
07-15-2013, 05:20 PM
anyone else use pink brick for thinning? chosera 400 is amazing stone but it doesnt remove metal fast enough. naniwa 150 does remove quick, but it dishes so fast you have to flatten multiple times DURING thinning which is aggravating as all hell.

chinacats
07-15-2013, 06:06 PM
I've got a pink brick 220 purchased from EE and I think it works great for thinning as long as you keep a light touch and allow the stone to do the work. If you use too much pressure it will load up and will have to refresh the surface.

Benuser
07-15-2013, 06:13 PM
I use my Chosera 400 for thinning behind the edge with normally maintained blades, or cutting an edge, but with project knives in need of severe thinning I start with coarse sandpaper.

labor of love
07-16-2013, 12:09 AM
i really didnt like the naniwa omura 150....its a cheap stone and gets the job done, but it sucks lol. spend $5 more and get a gesshin 220 stone. it has to be a better stone....i havent used one yet, but if jon included it in the gesshin line up it must be top notch.

GConcept999
07-16-2013, 12:50 AM
Seems like a Gesshin 220 is gonna cost me ~$19 more after tax and shipping, I don't feel like killing most of a quality stone until I got my sharpening techniques down, I'm still learning here. Also you get like double the real estate on the Omura. Slightly larger surface, and twice the height.

I'm considering a Beston 500 or a Gesshin 400.

How come you don't like the Omura?

labor of love
07-16-2013, 01:01 AM
omura clogs up pretty easily with swarf...and the only reason i would use a stone that low would be for thinning...so its counterproductive...it works for some people but i used my beston instead...maybe a low grit king would be a better option?

stereo.pete
07-16-2013, 08:40 AM
I couldn't be happier with my Gesshin 400.

jgraeff
07-16-2013, 09:21 AM
I couldn't be happier with my Gesshin 400.

agreed!

mhlee
07-16-2013, 12:31 PM
omura clogs up pretty easily with swarf...and the only reason i would use a stone that low would be for thinning...so its counterproductive...it works for some people but i used my beston instead...maybe a low grit king would be a better option?

I was going to comment on this thread because I've used a King 250 before and I was going to recommend against getting a super low grit stone. You can remove a significant amount of material in a very short time if you're not careful with a sub 400 grit stone in my experience. (I use 400 as a reference point because the Gesshin 400 that I use seems to be significantly less abrasive than the King 250.) The King 250 is ROUGH.

You can definitely use an Atoma 140 (and I assume a DMT XXC although I've never used a DMT; I have the Atoma 140) to thin a knife. I have. Will it reduce the life of the Atoma? Of course. But how much depends on how much you use it for thinning. Getting a DMT would also allow you to use it as a flattener so you're kind of killing two birds with one stone (no pun intended).

But, in my experience, it does take significant effort and time to remove scratches (if you care about this kind of stuff) if you use a very coarse stone. I just used my Gesshin 400 yesterday, followed by my Gesshin 2000 on a Sakai Takayuki petty and a Masamoto KS and with about 10 minutes of work on each, I was able to get rid of most of the scratches of the 400 with the 2000 (to my non-contact lenses eyes). However, using the 250, in my experience, seems to require a lower grit stone before going up to a higher grit stone.

So, since you have the Beston 1000, I think a DMT XX or possibly even an X could be a good solution. (From what I can tell from the DMT website, the X is equivalent to 220 grit.) Again, I've never used these plates; I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an Atoma, but I think it's a lot more than you want to pay.

You'll probably want to ask around to see how the X is as a flattener and coarse stone. But at about $50, it could be a good alternative.

keithsaltydog
07-16-2013, 11:41 PM
What does backing on sandpaper mean? Does it mean a raised surface like a piece of 2x4 block of wood?

How many sheets of sandpaper do you guys think the thinning project would take assuming I cut them to ~4.5in x 11in size? I don't want to have to spend more than what it would be for a coarse stone (a reason why I was eyeing the Naniwa Omura #150 was that it is fairly affordable for the size).
Would thinning a knife like this kill a diamond plate like DMT XXC or Atoma 140?

Does it have to be wet sanded, or is dry sanding okay, followed by wet sanding to get rid of the deep scratches? Briefly searching, it does not seem like 120 grit wet/dry sandpaper is readily available

Hmm, yes, I've heard of the pink brick, so many choices.

I would go wt. the Diamond plate.If you have one great,it doesn't have to be an expensive one.On the Artiflex you want to remove a fare amount of steel on the lower half of the blade.With a 120 plate you can use a crossing scratch pattern which removes steel effectively.Then to remove scratches something like a 500-700 grit stone works.Then you can polish it up with the stones you ordered.The problem wt. low grit stones is they dish quickly & you have a fair amount of steel to remove.If you do not have a plate get one they have multible uses,flattening whetstones, knife reprofile & repair.

I did a major thinning on a Artiflex Tall 240mm.Used a 140 Atoma & elbow grease.It is 50mm tall at the heel,I thinned halfway up the blade.It cuts way better with radical surgery.I have been using it alot since thinning,it holds a good edge,better than alot of stainless I have used.It is also easy to sharpen with the thin convex edge on it now.Peters does the HT for these blades.They are a respected industrial Heat Treatment Co.For Cultery they use a 3 step process with Cryo- freezing.

I even cut frozen fruit for my fruit smoothies wt. it.No chipping,good steel.The problem with the Artiflex is the factory Taper sucks so it is a project knife,but if you do not mind a major reprofile it deff. pays off.

tomsch
07-23-2013, 09:17 PM
I too am having great results on my AEB-L Artifex with some serious work using my DMT course stone. I've probably spend more than an hour working on the thinning and now it is a completely different knife. The steel is holding up great also after two weeks of daily cutting and still cuts very cleanly. A touch on the arm and hair just jumps off. Of course the real test is with food but I'm surprised at the edge holding so far.

chinacats
07-23-2013, 09:42 PM
I too am having great results on my AEB-L Artifex with some serious work using my DMT course stone. I've probably spend more than an hour working on the thinning and now it is a completely different knife. The steel is holding up great also after two weeks of daily cutting and still cuts very cleanly. A touch on the arm and hair just jumps off. Of course the real test is with food but I'm surprised at the edge holding so far.

Congratulations on the accomplishment. It truly is shameful though that a new knife needs this much work.

Cheers

keithsaltydog
07-23-2013, 10:00 PM
I was surprized also,been cutting frozen fruit wt it every morning,I cook for others every night.It is not like cutting for hours at a job.Been using it almost a month & have not resharpened it yet.

Decided to rehandle it since I like the knife so much.Redesign to make handle little longer.Had to redrill one hole for Corby & center hole for Mosiac.Used a new solid carbide bit that usually goes right thru hardened steel.The AEB-L hardened tang was not an easy drill.With the edge holding & hardness of steel I feel the Heat Treatment on this blade is excellent.

Using African Blackwood wt nickle silver corby rivits & nickle silver mosiac.I can easy see why Custom makers like this steel.:knife:

zWiLLX
07-23-2013, 10:31 PM
I agree with MHLee about the deep scratches being difficult to remove, but so it goes.. automotive refinishing adhesive-backed 120 is nice to work with if you put it on a flat tile or glass or tablesaw... and you'll probably use 4 sheets or more (max hopefully 6?). THEN if you have access to a 1k-ish diamond, it could be good for removing scratches.. or on a regular 1k it might take 20 hard minutes.. perhaps this order would be best economically speaking.. every time I've put a wide bevel of steel to a diamond plate it has really taxed heavily. For very narrow bevels or flattening other stones I use my Atoma. I've even found chamferring edges of stones with the diamond plate to be detrimental, and use a (real) brick/other stones

Ucmd
07-24-2013, 10:38 PM
This link might actually work

http://postimg.org/image/cma6nezdv/


http://s21.postimg.org/mjl7gh6zr/Artifex_Before1.jpg




THis has got to be a joke. You could split wood with that. Dont waste time trying to fix....take it out to the wood shop.

tomsch
07-25-2013, 11:14 AM
Congratulations on the accomplishment. It truly is shameful though that a new knife needs this much work.

Cheers

Yes, it is truly an accomplishment to thin this knife :) I'll have to take pictures of what it looks like with the hours spent so far. Too bad that the grind is so bad because the steel is performing very well.

Justin0505
07-27-2013, 04:01 PM
Gesshin 400 and diamond plates are great, but not cheap and you're going to put a lot of wear on them trying to grind all that steel down.
+1 For the recommendation to use coarse auto sandpaper or emery cloth to start with.

If you want to add convexing, you can to it by laying somthing like foam or rubber sheeting or a firm mouse pad under the sandpaper. You can find plenty of videos of guys doing that with hunting or bushcraft knives on youtube.


Another thing to consider here is that the HT can often be screwed up by the ape doing the finish grinding and sharpening if they're too chimp-aggressive and heat the steel up too much with friction. People often find that the steel's performance drastically improves once they remove some layers of this damaged metal at and behind the edge. So as long as you don't mind a "project" removing all the metal will improve the performance of your knife both in geometry and it edge taking and holding.

Take it slow and pay attention to what you're doing / the effect it has on cutting and you will come out of this project with a better understanding of what makes a good kitchen knife than the people that made and sold you this one.

GConcept999
08-18-2013, 09:49 PM
I finally got around to start the thinning project last week. I was using p220 grit wetordry sandpaper I had. I used it wet on a pretty flat and lacquered piece of 1"x6" (having it wet was the only to keep it from sliding around). It was pretty slow in my opinion, spent maybe 30-40 minutes, used up probably 40-50% of the paper, thinning a good 3cm up the side of the blade. It still looks like a long way to go.

Is there any problem to use the rubber kitchen cabinet lining as backing for the paper, and dry? I'm okay with the convexing, but will any problems arise from thinning too extensively with soft backing? For me, that is the most efficient way to keep it from sliding around, and the ability to use dry paper.

I went to the automotive parts store, of the wetordry paper, the coarsest they have is the 200. They have non-wet coarser paper, may get that if it's okay to use dry with the rubber lining.

BTW, thanks for all the replies!

CrisAnderson27
08-19-2013, 03:53 AM
http://s21.postimg.org/mjl7gh6zr/Artifex_Before1.jpg
THis has got to be a joke. You could split wood with that. Dont waste time trying to fix....take it out to the wood shop.

Holy crap. I couldn't get those pictures to load. That's insane. My all purpose, work/beater EDC is thinner behind the edge than that by over half...



I finally got around to start the thinning project last week. I was using p220 grit wetordry sandpaper I had. I used it wet on a pretty flat and lacquered piece of 1"x6" (having it wet was the only to keep it from sliding around). It was pretty slow in my opinion, spent maybe 30-40 minutes, used up probably 40-50% of the paper, thinning a good 3cm up the side of the blade. It still looks like a long way to go.

Is there any problem to use the rubber kitchen cabinet lining as backing for the paper, and dry? I'm okay with the convexing, but will any problems arise from thinning too extensively with soft backing? For me, that is the most efficient way to keep it from sliding around, and the ability to use dry paper.

I went to the automotive parts store, of the wetordry paper, the coarsest they have is the 200. They have non-wet coarser paper, may get that if it's okay to use dry with the rubber lining.

BTW, thanks for all the replies!

I'd defer to these guys when it comes to thinning by hand, as I use a belt sander myself. However, I'd suggest that you use a hard, flat backing for the majority of your work. This will help the paper cut better, and will also show you where your lines are more readily. Once you're close or even done with the actual thinning, use the soft backing to blend in the scratches and restore the convex shape.

Another suggestion is to use black sharpie to help you keep track of where you're abrading steel. Sometimes its really easy to get stir crazy and oversand somewhere you didn't intend to. Just draw some diagonal lines across the blade, and as they abrade away, redraw them in.

Something like this:
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/CrisAnderson27/Bladesmithing/20130818_193523.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/CrisAnderson27/Bladesmithing/20130818_194857.jpg

This is an extreme example of course, but you see what I mean.

Anyhow, I hope my comments were helpful. You've seriously got your hands full thinning that thing without power tools, lol.

zitangy
08-19-2013, 07:15 AM
I finally got around to start the thinning project last week. I was using p220 grit wetordry sandpaper I had.

Is there any problem to use the rubber kitchen cabinet lining as backing for the paper, and dry? I'm okay with the convexing, but will any problems arise from thinning too extensively with soft backing? For me, that is the most efficient way to keep it from sliding around, and the ability to use dry paper.

I went to the automotive parts store, of the wetordry paper, the coarsest they have is the 200. They have non-wet coarser paper, may get that if it's okay to use dry with the rubber lining.

BTW, thanks for all the replies!

The course the grit the faster it cuts. I wld imagine that using a wet mode .. you get less friction and better finish where else in dry mode.. more friction, more cutting provided that teh sandpaper is cleaned to remove the clogged pores. a) lightly tapping teh sand paper to loosen the trapped iron dust between the pores and getting rid of it from sandpaper.

What grit size to use depends how much steel you desire to remove adn how fast.. and how much pressure you apply.

Backing is for sturdiness adn safety. I usually put the knife flat on teh glass piece, with a twisting motion for teh edge to be fully flushed against the glass top ( so tht you do not cut yr fingers(s) adn use a small piece of sandpaper with a backing to remove steel as this gives me granular control where i wish to remove steel.

I suppose that you wld have to keep a steady eye on teh choil once in a while to know how much you have removed.. Check oftern enough so that you dont make it too thin.

Eventually you will get reach the thinness that you desire.

have fun.

rgds
d

zWiLLX
08-28-2013, 10:23 PM
yea you can't give up now!! pot odds, as they say.

You could use a spray adhesive to keep the paper from sliding. 3M/ home depot variety should do. Or you could spray the paper to the cabinet liner, though it's unclear how that would work, but probably better than nothing.

It's a barbaric task; get out the gorilla glue if you have to ;) Maybe the tape first actually would be better. Gorilla tape might have a chance to hold. Finally, you could mechanically clamp the paper to a cinderblock, maybe in conjunction with the cabinet liner. Just a couple C clamps and wood strips at the north/south ends should hold it. It will cramp your workspace but it would surely hold.

Good luck

jgraeff
08-29-2013, 09:30 AM
You honestly would have been better off returning that knife it's a shame they even sold that knife as a Gyuto, however this is a good learning experience for sharpening.

The gesshin 400 is a great stone but does dish quickly for thinning jobs. I'd go with a diamond plate first to remove most metal. Then refine with 400 then 1k. Then use your sand paper to refinish the blade start with like 400 make sure to remove all scratches before going on to each new piece. I'd go up to like800- 1000 or so.

harlock0083
08-29-2013, 04:14 PM
You honestly would have been better off returning that knife it's a shame they even sold that knife as a Gyuto, however this is a good learning experience for sharpening.

The gesshin 400 is a great stone but does dish quickly for thinning jobs. I'd go with a diamond plate first to remove most metal. Then refine with 400 then 1k. Then use your sand paper to refinish the blade start with like 400 make sure to remove all scratches before going on to each new piece. I'd go up to like800- 1000 or so.

I've come to the conclusion that if go through all that to get the Artifex up to the performance you want from it; you would have been better off buying a Carbonext.
This is from first hand experience...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7335/9582526377_1aed33242e_b.jpg

bahamaroot
08-29-2013, 04:26 PM
Congratulations on the accomplishment. It truly is shameful though that a new knife needs this much work.

Cheers
There is a reason this knife is only $75 and not $175. I thinned some with the first sharpening and a little more with the second. It's a great knife now.

chinacats
08-29-2013, 04:33 PM
There is a reason this knife is only $75 and not $175. I thinned some with the first sharpening and a little more with the second. It's a great knife now.

The problem is not that it can't be fixed; it is that it is being sold as great for a beginner. No beginner wants to go through that just to get a knife that cuts. Many better knives (ready to use) for a small increase in price.

Cheers to you for fixing yours!