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dannynyc
06-04-2013, 10:45 AM
I've been very happy with my newly-acquired Konosuke Funayuki/Gyuto and use it for most everything, but still want a thicker knife for heavier tasks. I have a Carbonext for that purpose, but eventually I'd like to replace/upgrade it.

So here's the gyuto I'm looking for: flatter KS/Funayuki profile, non-laser (say >2.5mm at spine), semi-stainless akin to HD or carbonext. Basically the thicker flat sakai yusuke but in semi-stainless. Some people might suggest the ultimatum, but I'm not overly enthused about 19C27 based on what I've heard.

So, does this knife exist?

Von blewitt
06-04-2013, 10:49 AM
Devin Thomas ITK AEB-L

dannynyc
06-04-2013, 10:52 AM
How about a knife that is actually available for sale now or in the near future?

stevenStefano
06-04-2013, 11:40 AM
What's wrong with the Carbonext?

dannynyc
06-04-2013, 11:41 AM
Nothing wrong with it -- it's a great knife and I've long sung its praises. I just am craving something with a wa-handle and a bit less belly.

cclin
06-04-2013, 12:21 PM
Yoshikane SLD & SKD 11
Gengetsu semi-stainless
Heiji semi-stainless
Gesshin Hide Ginsanko
Masamoto SW3124

dannynyc
06-04-2013, 01:00 PM
Yoshikane SLD & SKD 11
Gengetsu semi-stainless
Heiji semi-stainless
Gesshin Hide Ginsanko
Masamoto SW3124


Hmm, what can anyone tell me about the Masamoto SW 3124? According to the photo in Masamoto's catalog at http://www.masamoto-sohonten.co.jp/catalog.html (entirely in Japanese, which I don't speak), this knife seems to have a KS-like profile. Anyone know what kind of steel it has and where one would even buy it? It appears to be on Rakuten (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/subaru/sw3124/) , but again, entirely in Japanese.

mhlee
06-04-2013, 01:12 PM
Yoshikane SLD & SKD 11
Gengetsu semi-stainless
Heiji semi-stainless
Gesshin Hide Ginsanko
Masamoto SW3124

Heiji for heavier tasks? How are you sharpening it?

cclin
06-04-2013, 01:41 PM
Hmm, what can anyone tell me about the Masamoto SW 3124? According to the photo in Masamoto's catalog at http://www.masamoto-sohonten.co.jp/catalog.html (entirely in Japanese, which I don't speak), this knife seems to have a KS-like profile. Anyone know what kind of steel it has and where one would even buy it? It appears to be on Rakuten (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/subaru/sw3124/) , but again, entirely in Japanese.


Masamoto SW3124 have same KS profile with Swedish steel. you can special order from Korin with 10% off.... please PM Mari for more detail.

cclin
06-04-2013, 02:04 PM
Heiji for heavier tasks? How are you sharpening it?
I only use Heiji gyuto once & never have chance to sharpening it. why you ask?? if I remember it right, Heiji has very similar profile & geometry with my Yoshikane SLD and I have no problem sharping it....

EdipisReks
06-04-2013, 02:07 PM
I only use Heiji gyuto once & never have chance to sharpening it. why you ask?? if I remember it right, Heiji has very similar profile & geometry with my Yoshikane SLD and I have no problem sharping it....

the reason he is asking is because Heijis are very thin behind the edge and at the point, so they aren't really suited for "heavier" tasks, unless you deliberately thicken the geometry.

mhlee
06-04-2013, 02:08 PM
the reason he is asking is because Heijis are very thin behind the edge and at the point, so they aren't really suited for "heavier" tasks, unless you deliberately thicken the geometry.

Precisely.

I've never used a Heiji, but I haven't read of or heard from a single owner who's said that it's a suitable knife for heavier tasks without doing something to change the original edge.

cclin
06-04-2013, 02:24 PM
the reason he is asking is because Heijis are very thin behind the edge and at the point, so they aren't really suited for "heavier" tasks, unless you deliberately thicken the geometry.
really?? I think yoshikane SLD just about same thin behind the edge with Heiji & I have no problem use my SLD for home cook's "heavier" tasks, though....left side yoshikane SLD/ right side Gengetsu
http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s482/54cclin/20130503_183803_zps1fcdd22a.jpg (http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/54cclin/media/20130503_183803_zps1fcdd22a.jpg.html)
http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s482/54cclin/20130503_183506_zps3818b8db.jpg (http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/54cclin/media/20130503_183506_zps3818b8db.jpg.html)

EdipisReks
06-04-2013, 02:49 PM
really?? I think yoshikane SLD just about same thin behind the edge with Heiji & I have no problem use my SLD for home cook's "heavier" tasks, though....left side yoshikane SLD/ right side Gengetsu
http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s482/54cclin/20130503_183803_zps1fcdd22a.jpg (http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/54cclin/media/20130503_183803_zps1fcdd22a.jpg.html)
http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s482/54cclin/20130503_183506_zps3818b8db.jpg (http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/54cclin/media/20130503_183506_zps3818b8db.jpg.html)

it really depends on what one means by "heavier" tasks, then. i would go cutting through chicken bones with any of my Heijis. i wouldn't have done that with my Gengetsu or Shig or the Yoshikane i owned, either.

Pensacola Tiger
06-04-2013, 05:40 PM
I've been very happy with my newly-acquired Konosuke Funayuki/Gyuto and use it for most everything, but still want a thicker knife for heavier tasks. I have a Carbonext for that purpose, but eventually I'd like to replace/upgrade it.

So here's the gyuto I'm looking for: flatter KS/Funayuki profile, non-laser (say >2.5mm at spine), semi-stainless akin to HD or carbonext. Basically the thicker flat sakai yusuke but in semi-stainless. Some people might suggest the ultimatum, but I'm not overly enthused about 19C27 based on what I've heard.

So, does this knife exist?

I'm curious to know what you have heard about 19C27 that makes you feel "unenthused". IIRC, 19C27 is the steel that Suisin uses in the Inox honyaki series, and it is a very good steel. Now, if you have a lack of enthusiasm because of what you've heard about the Ultimatum, that's another thing.

BTW, if you'd like to try an Ultimatum in 19C27, I have one gathering dust in a drawer that you can try for the price of shipping. It might be what you're looking for. PM me if you're interested.

Rick

tk59
06-04-2013, 05:43 PM
I'd like to know what you mean by "heavier tasks."

dannynyc
06-04-2013, 05:45 PM
I'd like to know what you mean by "heavier tasks."

You know, barbells, rebar, that kind of thing.

Actually, just harder squashes, sweet potatoes, and other rock-hard root vegetables that lasers don't seem to like.

EdipisReks
06-04-2013, 06:17 PM
You know, barbells, rebar, that kind of thing.

Actually, just harder squashes, sweet potatoes, and other rock-hard root vegetables that lasers don't seem to like.

Heiji is great for those things, but expect wedging with any knife that is substantial at the spine.

tk59
06-04-2013, 07:02 PM
+1. However, I also have no problem using a "laser" on hard squash. In fact, I prefer a thinner knife for these tasks.. What exactly happens to your KonHD when you try to cut squash with it?

scott6452
06-04-2013, 07:07 PM
+1 I've never really understood the image fragility concerning lasers. My Harner nakiri is the thinnest knife behind the edge that i will probably ever own (really, its crazy thin) and i downright have been abusing it for months with all manor of food. The edge is still completely perfect, not a microchip in sight. And it is also the best cutter for the hard items.

labor of love
06-04-2013, 07:16 PM
i really like my cck for hard vegetables. maybe danny is just making up excuses to buy a new knife:happyyes:

scott6452
06-04-2013, 07:22 PM
In that case, i think maybe an extra 2 gyutos would fill all the gaps :thumbsup:

rdpx
06-04-2013, 08:55 PM
I can't recommend one because I haven't used anything besides a CarboNext.

What do you think of the CarboNext?

rdpx
06-04-2013, 09:00 PM
Heiji is great for those things, but expect wedging with any knife that is substantial at the spine.

Do you own a heiji, Edipis?
I am guessing you do from the thread, but I don't think you have explicitly said so.
If so, do you like it?

mhlee
06-04-2013, 09:34 PM
What do you think of the CarboNext?

It's fine for what it is, IMHO.

It's a good transition knife for people coming from German knives because it's got the same kind of feel. It's a rather substantial feeling, western handled Japanese knife. The geometry is decent, but it's heavily biased for right handed users; it's got a asymmetric grind and edge (as you showed in your pictures); the steel seems to hold its edge a while. I haven't sharpened it yet so I can't comment on how it feels on stones, how sharp it can get or how long it holds a finer edge, but, it's a decent knife.

But, I don't like how it feels in the hand, I remember not liking the tip, the fit and finish is okay, and it's not a better performing knife than the Suisin Inox Western. I would still prefer the Suisin Inox Western if I were going to buy an entry level western handled Japanese knife as I've written here before because, IMHO, it's a better overall performing knife. If I were going to buy an entry level wa-handled knife, I would buy the Gesshin Uraku.

My opinion may slightly change after sharpening it, but I don't think it will change to the point of me recommending it over the Suisin Inox Western at that price point. A drastically sharper knife won't necessarily improve it to the point of eliminating the things I don't like about it - the balance, geometry, wedging, and overall performance. At a minimum, to improve the overall performance, I would imagine that it probably needs some bevel work beyond sharpening.

statusquo
06-04-2013, 10:01 PM
Voila!
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/9083-Catcheside-Cutlery-Knives-available?p=212810&viewfull=1#post212810

EdipisReks
06-04-2013, 10:40 PM
Do you own a heiji, Edipis?
I am guessing you do from the thread, but I don't think you have explicitly said so.
If so, do you like it?

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/12335-Heiji-spa-day

panda
06-05-2013, 01:48 AM
danny, check out the masamoto vg series, it's got a spectacular profile and the steel is very underrated. stainless, 2.5mm @ spine, tall at the heel, tapers to a very thin tip. easy as hell to sharpen, lasts a while. i went 2 months without taking it back to the stones when i first put my own bevels on one. i would have let you borrow my backup one but i recently sold it to one of my cooks (i had my main one converted to wa handle). maybe someone else might be kind enough to loan one to you? by the way let me know if you plan on selling your carbonext, one of my cooks is looking to upgrade from his miyabi.

cclin - have you used a masamoto sw3124? could you tell me more about it? is it basically an aeb-l version of the ks? if so that might be an interesting one to check out.

cclin
06-05-2013, 02:28 AM
cclin - have you used a masamoto sw3124? could you tell me more about it? is it basically an aeb-l version of the ks? if so that might be an interesting one to check out.

panda, I've not use masamoto sw3124. the web page only state it is スウェーデン鋼(Swedish steel), I'm not sure is 13C26(AEB-L) or 19c27 steel. you can PM Mari(Korin) or e-mail Koki(JCK) for more information!

dannynyc
06-05-2013, 10:01 AM
danny, check out the masamoto vg series, it's got a spectacular profile and the steel is very underrated. stainless, 2.5mm @ spine, tall at the heel, tapers to a very thin tip. easy as hell to sharpen, lasts a while. i went 2 months without taking it back to the stones when i first put my own bevels on one. i would have let you borrow my backup one but i recently sold it to one of my cooks (i had my main one converted to wa handle). maybe someone else might be kind enough to loan one to you? by the way let me know if you plan on selling your carbonext, one of my cooks is looking to upgrade from his miyabi.

cclin - have you used a masamoto sw3124? could you tell me more about it? is it basically an aeb-l version of the ks? if so that might be an interesting one to check out.

Thanks. The masamoto VG was my first j-knife but i ended up selling it because I found that burr removal was very difficult and i often got a wire edge. I find the CN infinitely easier to sharpen and it takes a sharp, long-lasting edge.

tk59
06-05-2013, 10:04 AM
Do you own a heiji, Edipis?
I am guessing you do from the thread, but I don't think you have explicitly said so.
If so, do you like it?

I own a couple as well. Heiji semistainless is a very nice steel and I don't think twice about doing anything with it that I do with most other blades, for the most part. I would say the one shortcoming is in toughness. The steel is very hard and a bit on the brittle side so if you are going to be smacking the edge on things or your technique isn't great, you'll get some microchipping. You can compensate for this by adding a microbevel at a large angle or just not thinning your knife as much over time. My vote for something semi stainless with more toughness would be the Gengetsu semistainless.

Marko Tsourkan
06-05-2013, 10:35 AM
My educated guess is that both Heiji and Gengetsu use equivalent or similar to A2 semi-stainless steel (5% chromium content). Depending how it is heat treated, this steel can offer a good toughness, sharpness and have an added stain resistance at the same time. There might be some benefit to sharpness by forging A2 vs using in a sheet form (factory annealed), however, it is a steel that could be heat treated for an outstanding wear resistance, i.e. it will get reasonably sharp (a notch lower than 52100, due to larger carbide size), hold an edge at that sharpness reasonably well, but then drop into a plateau of sharpness that is a notch lower than initial sharpness and stay there for a long time.

It's a great steel for a line knife, a butcher knife, a bread knife and other types where toughness and long edge retention are more important that the sharpness.

It responds very well to touchups on 8K diamond plate and stropping on 1M diamond felt. Easy to maintain the edge + long periods between sharpening sessions = long life of a knife.

One drawback, as I already mentioned, is a larger carbide size than in steels like 52100, AEB-L, etc, so the sharpness will be a notch lower. There might be ways to get around it and reduce the size of carbides by forging or during some steps in heat treating, but despite that, it's a great steel.

M

Dave Martell
06-05-2013, 10:36 AM
:nono:

OK folks.....I've deleted an offer from a knifemaker, many insults, and lots of back and forth arguing that resulted from the insult throwing. Since this is my breakfast time I'm not going to spend it sending PMs to all the players, this should serve as message enough.

Please keep the discussion civil - arguing is OK but name calling isn't. As for the knifemaker who made an offer - that's not allowed either.

EdipisReks
06-05-2013, 12:51 PM
My educated guess is that both Heiji and Gengetsu use equivalent or similar to A2 semi-stainless steel (5% chromium content). Depending how it is heat treated, this steel can offer a good toughness, sharpness and have an added stain resistance at the same time. There might be some benefit to sharpness by forging A2 vs using in a sheet form (factory annealed), however, it is a steel that could be heat treated for an outstanding wear resistance, i.e. it will get reasonably sharp (a notch lower than 52100, due to larger carbide size), hold an edge at that sharpness reasonably well, but then drop into a plateau of sharpness that is a notch lower than initial sharpness and stay there for a long time.

It's a great steel for a line knife, a butcher knife, a bread knife and other types where toughness and long edge retention are more important that the sharpness.

It responds very well to touchups on 8K diamond plate and stropping on 1M diamond felt. Easy to maintain the edge + long periods between sharpening sessions = long life of a knife.

One drawback, as I already mentioned, is a larger carbide size than in steels like 52100, AEB-L, etc, so the sharpness will be a notch lower. There might be ways to get around it and reduce the size of carbides by forging or during some steps in heat treating, but despite that, it's a great steel.

M

i'm not 100% sure what the Heiji semi-stainless steel is, but it gets about as sharp as anything else i've used.

rdpx
06-05-2013, 07:22 PM
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/12335-Heiji-spa-day


Ah. I hadn't read that thread!

EdipisReks
06-05-2013, 07:56 PM
Ah. I hadn't read that thread!

I have a third Heiji coming to me, a 240 in carbon. I'll post about it once I have a grip on it.

tk59
06-06-2013, 01:00 AM
Sorry, Marko. I can't imagine Heiji semi and Gengetsu semi being the same steel and if it is, the HT is so different, the behave very differently. These steels are not close other than they have good wear resistance and they are easy to sharpen. Stain resistance and toughness are not close.

panda
06-06-2013, 02:18 AM
What about that new Swedish Stainless steel series from jck? looks kinda like Yusuke clone.

chinacats
06-06-2013, 02:59 AM
Sorry, Marko. I can't imagine Heiji semi and Gengetsu semi being the same steel and if it is, the HT is so different, the behave very differently. These steels are not close other than they have good wear resistance and they are easy to sharpen. Stain resistance and toughness are not close.

TK, I own a Heiji semi-stainless and am curious about how it compares to a Gengetsu which I have never tried--you mentioned stain resistance and toughness, can you elaborate?

Thanks

dannynyc
06-06-2013, 12:37 PM
I contacted Korin to look into the Masamoto SW3124 (which appears to be a stainless version of the KS). It is apparently made with AEB-L, HRC 60. Korin can special order it: the 240mm is $385, 270mm is $420. A bit more expensive than the KS. I don't have any experience with AEB-L, but there are plenty of comments about it elsewhere on the forum.

dannynyc
06-06-2013, 12:40 PM
What about that new Swedish Stainless steel series from jck? looks kinda like Yusuke clone.

That does look interesting. It's real hard to tell much about the profile from the one photo JCK posted. I also note that they only have a 240, and it's on the short side (235mm).

panda
06-06-2013, 02:07 PM
thats very expensive. at that price there's also mizuno swedish stainless. http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HontanrenSeries.html#Hontanren

dannynyc
06-06-2013, 02:12 PM
It is very expensive, and probably not worth it. Keep in mind though that I was originally on a quest for a semi-stainless non-laser version of the KS/funayuki profile and so far the only suggestion that really seems to fit is the Darth Vader Ultimatum.



thats very expensive. at that price there's also mizuno swedish stainless. http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HontanrenSeries.html#Hontanren

chinacats
06-06-2013, 04:40 PM
It is very expensive, and probably not worth it. Keep in mind though that I was originally on a quest for a semi-stainless non-laser version of the KS/funayuki profile and so far the only suggestion that really seems to fit is the Darth Vader Ultimatum.

The good thing is you can probably pick one of those up cheap...then plan on doing some work to it to bring it up to speed. Sounds like you may be better off getting something custom done though since you seem to know what you want.

labor of love
06-06-2013, 05:29 PM
Semi stainless non laser? Have you looked at aritsugu? An eBay store sells them for around $240 for the 270mm w/saya