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augerpro
06-26-2013, 05:19 PM
Backstory: I've had a stainless Gesshin Ginga for several months and love it, but recently tried a Tanaka blue and really like the additional weight since I'm starting to work on my chopping skills (I'm mainly a push slicer, hence why I love the Ginga). Didn't like the Tanaka's profile though (I like flat), so I decided to try a kasumi Shig hoping it was the best of both worlds. Performance wise it pretty much is, slices like a laser but weighs more. I tried forcing a patina with mustard, and it helped with reactivity, but only for very short jobs. But some jobs, or maybe it is a certain vege (garlic seems the worst) leaves some orange or purple staining. The orange freaks me out because I was afraid it was rust. Anyway used Barkeepers Friend to take off the patina, and then did a hot vinegar treatment (like 1 minute at time, 3x). It seemed to work great, left a solid grey patina. But when I used it onions today it stuck BIGTIME. I'm going to try to use some steel wool to smooth out the finish and see if that helps. Anyone have some tips? I can't believe how just a surface patina affected the stiction so much.

If I can't make this work (I really am not interested in super-babying a knife), I could use some advice on a stainless gyuto (210), excellent grind that cuts like a laser (or close), but with a little more weight than laser. Actually I wish there was a Ginga with a profile like the Shig, just that extra height and bigger tip would probably be all the weight I'm looking for.

bkultra
06-26-2013, 05:25 PM
Not all carbon steel is as reactive as your Shigefusa's cladding. Shigefusa does have a reputation of being more reactive then most. If you want a flat profile and a less reactive carbon steel... Why not a Masamoto KS?

Forcing a patina on a Shigefusa... (Edit site not allowed, even blocks it via a PM)

augerpro
06-26-2013, 05:38 PM
I've considered a Masamoto KS, but didn't know how much better it would be. Besides they don't make a 210 that I can find. I have an Asai karouchi AS nakiri and I don't have any issue caring for that, so I'm not sure what to think...

bkultra
06-26-2013, 05:40 PM
You are correct they do not make a 210. In fact their 240 runs long (more like 250). I missed that was the only size you are interested in. Try the websit I gave you via PM and see if that helps your reactivity.

JBroida
06-26-2013, 05:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tza5pymb5yg

Slypig5000
06-26-2013, 06:11 PM
I have, in the past, played around with forcing a patina on my knives and don't anymore. My daily use knife for about the last year has been a carbon sab that I feel is fairly reactive. I keep my cutting bored next to my sink and have become very accustomed to just rinsing it off with a splash of water frequently and drying with a towel. It's just kind of become part of my ruitine. The upside is nothing stays on the blade long enough to damage it and the blade is free of any debris after cutting.

I see that since I started typing this Jon posted the video that inspired me to do this, thank you Jon for all of your vids, I'm a better cook because of them.

JBroida
06-26-2013, 06:38 PM
glad you find them helpful

augerpro
06-26-2013, 07:35 PM
Thanks Jon for the video! I just don't know if I want to go through all that every time I want to prep dinner. Gonna buy a bunch of onions right now and test some things out.

I wouldn't have this issue if Jon would just do a special run of Ginga's funayaki style, or just a 1/4" taller with more of a spear point like a KS or Shig :) I love everything about my Ginga I just need a little more weight! Would a Gengetsu or Suisin INOX funayaki be a good compromise?

JBroida
06-26-2013, 07:39 PM
while the gengetsu is a good knife, its not quite what you are describing. The suisin funayuki is totally a different knife all together. Funayuki is not really a gyuto shape... its a deba... only in the US has it become this pointy style of gyuto.

DeepCSweede
06-26-2013, 08:24 PM
I found that using blood and cutting up a lot of proteins to force a patina worked the best on my Kitaeji Shig. I haven't had any smell / discoloration issues since I did that.

DeepCSweede
06-26-2013, 08:25 PM
Also, the Masamoto KS is a totally different knife than the Shig - there is very little comparison between the two imo and I have both.

bkultra
06-26-2013, 08:32 PM
I own both the KS (Honyaki) and Shig myself (only had the Shig a week). I agree they are very different and complement each other well. I did not recommend it because it was similar to the Shig, I recommended it because of what he described as wanting (flat profile and less reactive carbon). I also don't force a patina myself, but since he was doing a hot vinegar bath I assumed this his how he wanted to approach the problem.

DeepCSweede
06-26-2013, 08:39 PM
Congrats on that purchase by the way - that is one beautiful handle on that baby. I don't know why people are selling off Shigs right now, I don't think I could part with mine.

bkultra
06-26-2013, 08:47 PM
Thanks, I agree the Macassar Ebony & Buffalo Horn Handle is beautiful. So far I love every aspect of the Shigefusa and this one wont be hitting the B/S/T again.

Back to the OP, it sounds like carbon might not be for you. There is extra care needed and its not for everyone. Good thing there are some great stainless and semi-stainless out there

augerpro
06-26-2013, 09:17 PM
You guys who have both a KS and Shig I'd be curious about how they compare to each other? And versus a laser like the Ginga if you've used one.

So I took some 00 and 0000 steel wool after the Shig and that helped a lot. I just cut a bunch of onions with my Ginga and Shig and I'm still undecided, which makes me think the finish on the Shig still isn't like it was with just a mustard patina, since I remember it being a bit better than the Ginga on onions. I did use a damp rag like in Jon's video and it seemed to work well, so maybe I can live with that. I also noticed the Shig is 5/8" longer than the Ginga, almost makes me wonder if just getting a 240 Ginga would solve my problems. That length will definitely push my limits though, a real 8" is just about as much as I like in my work area. I may strip the patina, do light patina with mustard and see if that is slicker.

augerpro
06-26-2013, 10:10 PM
Stripped the vinegar patina, rubbed with steel wool, and reapplied a mustard patina. This time I wiped it on very thin, dried right away. After I clean it is a little yellow/orange in spots of the cladding, so I confident it was just an effect of the mustard, not rust as I earlier feared. Will do some more chopping tomorrow to figure out what I want to do.

bkultra
06-26-2013, 10:23 PM
You guys who have both a KS and Shig I'd be curious about how they compare to each other ?

I have only owned the Shigefusa for a week and still in the honeymoon phase. So I'll have to pass on making an honest comparison. I'll leave DeepCSweede to make the comparison since he has more time/experience with the Shig.

bamin
06-26-2013, 11:11 PM
What about a Yoshikane? There is also that thicker Sakai Yusuke in the KS profile that has been talked about in the past?

augerpro
06-26-2013, 11:22 PM
What about a Yoshikane? There is also that thicker Sakai Yusuke in the KS profile that has been talked about in the past?

Maybe...but aren't both of those a little thick? I'm first and foremost a push cutter, so if I have to choose it will be a knife that slides through food with little effort while slicing.

panda
06-27-2013, 12:04 AM
Hot chicken patina works well on the shig.

augerpro
06-27-2013, 12:11 AM
while the gengetsu is a good knife, its not quite what you are describing. The suisin funayuki is totally a different knife all together. Funayuki is not really a gyuto shape... its a deba... only in the US has it become this pointy style of gyuto.

I meant Suisin INOX honyaki. Just looked at the weight though and it looks like a laser, probably won't gain me anything over my Ginga. How does the Gengetsu differ from what I am looking for?

bamin
06-27-2013, 12:13 AM
Maybe...but aren't both of those a little thick? I'm first and foremost a push cutter, so if I have to choose it will be a knife that slides through food with little effort while slicing.

Yoshikane in white 2 is fairly substantial at the spine but very thin at the edge. The thicker KS style Yusuke is supposed to be 2.8mm at the spine up from 2.3mm on the normal ones. I've never used one but its been said that the extra thickness allows for a more convex grind.

augerpro
06-27-2013, 12:23 AM
Hot chicken patina works well on the shig.


I found that using blood and cutting up a lot of proteins to force a patina worked the best on my Kitaeji Shig. I haven't had any smell / discoloration issues since I did that.

I may try that if what I did tonight doesn't cut it. Actually wiping it down on a damp rag everytime I set it down seemed to work ok. I don't want to sell this Shig since I really like the cutting.

That said, any opinions on Teruyasu Fujiwara, Masakage Koishi, maybe even Takeda?

Timthebeaver
06-27-2013, 06:33 AM
Maybe...but aren't both of those a little thick? .

There are many flavours of Yoshikanes. The SKD hammered series has been around for many years (one of the first gyutos to be "flavour of the month iirc) and has become synonymous with the Yoshikane name. Iirc the wa gyutos (in general) were considered to become more "mighty" through the range 210-240-270 (not uncommon), whilst everything I read about the western-handled variants seemed to suggest they were real beasts. More recently the kasumi SKD/SLD knives became more common (through DrNaka, Maksim), plus other, more expensive lines such as the Tamamoku suminagashi in white steel, V2 and VG10 and the SLD kurouchi damascus.

I have a Zensho-Yoshikane 240 mm gyuto and "cuts like a laser with more heft" is a great description. I believe Maksim had these made to his own spec. It is thick at the handle (not at all unusual for a forged blade) with a beautiful, consistent distal taper to a very fine tip. The grind is excellent, and the knife (stock) is very thin behind the edge. It is undoubtedly more difficult to sharpen than good carbon, but takes a good edge which is tough and very resistant to chipping. As you might expect from SKD12, retention is very good. Profile is reasonably flat and lends itself well to push cutting, but I think is particularly suited to slicing.

I think Yoshikane knives are somewhat underrated, probably because they are relatively common/not esoteric enough for those seeking the next/newest/greatest thing. Ymmv.