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gic
07-05-2013, 03:23 PM
I have a wa Shig and I do love it, I even have a Shig damascus with a yo(!) handle that will be coming to me soon that I got a Japanese friend to order for me from Kiya in Japan. (Luckily while they don't seem to make many yo's anymore-especially in damascus-Kiya seems to have some extra pull with them and they made it for me, I'm chomping at the bit to get it-it should be here by the end of the month.)

Still, I was thinking it would be insanely cool if I could buy a Shig profile knife in a high end stainless steel like AEB-L . Have any of the custom makers here made something close to this? Even better is there any semi custom knife that is close to a Shig profile that is in a mono stainless?

bkultra
07-05-2013, 03:28 PM
Marko Tsourkan's knives are influenced by Shigefusa and others. He also works with AEB-L, so seems like a perfect fit for what you are looking for.

http://www.tsourkanknives.com/

EdipisReks
07-05-2013, 03:29 PM
wouldn't really be a Shig clone if it's not a clad knife, and i honestly don't know why you would want a monosteel knife over a clad one, if it's going to have the grind of a clad knife. Yoshikane's semi-stainless is pretty close to the concept, otherwise.

EdipisReks
07-05-2013, 03:30 PM
Marko Tsourkan's knives are influenced by Shigefusa and others. He also works with AEB-L, so seems like a perfect fit for what you are looking for.

http://www.tsourkanknives.com/

i believe they are a good bit thinner than a Shig, at the spine, and through the grind, right? The profile is probably similar, though.

bkultra
07-05-2013, 03:32 PM
Yes you are correct, but he has my Shig atm and I know he commented that it was thinner then the older Shigefusa's he was accustomed to.

gic
07-05-2013, 07:51 PM
I like the geometry of my shig a lot, but am confused why it couldn't be mimicked in AEB-L or some other stainless?? Why would san mai construction effect the geometry??

Marko Tsourkan
07-05-2013, 08:07 PM
i believe they are a good bit thinner than a Shig, at the spine, and through the grind, right? The profile is probably similar, though.

As far as I know, Yoshikane geometry is very different of Shigefusa. Both are forged and san mai, but that's where the similarities end. Shigefusa are thin knives, don't be fooled by the super thick tang and machi area.

The disadvantage of a thin san mai knife is that it will bend if not careful (you can bend Shige petty or suji with your fingers, even a gyuto near the tip). Monosteel knives don't have that problem.

Geometry of a knife is how the knife is ground. The advantage of san mai over monosteel, from maker's perspective is that it is easier to finish, easier to keep the knife straight and this allows to lower overall production cost of a knife. Performance-wise there is no difference, and someone says there is, they would have to prove it.

Even thickest Shigefusa I have seen is thinner in cross-section than Yoshikane.

M

chinacats
07-05-2013, 11:47 PM
Copying the profile is probably easy, geometry is what makes it a Shig. Who else does a similar grind?

Lefty
07-06-2013, 12:13 AM
I've looked at a handful of Shiges very closely, and to be honest, the grind isn't anything otherworldly. What makes them so impressive is the perfection of the grind. It seems to me, you can hold any Shige in the light and not see any dips or peaks along the blade face. I am truly impressed with the consistency straight across the board. The food release on them seems to be good, but nothing crazy, and the tip is actually surprisingly stellar. All in all, the grind is just own that has a nice balance of flat (for thinness), and convex (for food release). This is tough to do, but if you ask Pierre, Marko, Devin, Will, Mike, etc, you'll get a beautiful cutter with similar properties. As far as profile goes, maybe ask on of the above guys to mimick the shape. I bet you'll be pleased.

chinacats
07-06-2013, 12:57 AM
I recently got 10 Shigefusas and one Yoshihide, all destined for you guys. I have looked them all over very thoroughly, and without going into specifics, they are all gorgeous blades, with terrific craftsmanship. The grinds, in general, are stellar. The feeling, terrific. As we all know, Shigefusa is one of the "Grail Knives", and I fully understand why. Not surprisingly, I have a feeling I'll be keeping one for my own kitchen, to love and ogle, for years to come. What has surprised me, however, is which knife it is that's made me a little kid. The knife I'm talking about is a 195mm Santoku. Yes, a SANTOKU! I've said before, I'm not a santoku guy. I wasn't, at least...hell, I'm still not, but this little gal has stolen my heart. It's a wonderful size for home use, the look is just incredible, and when I first grabbed it, I went, "Damn...this isn't good". I'm mesmerized by the grind, and while I can't quite put it into words, it just feels like it's supposed to stay with me.


It's the grind :D

panda
07-06-2013, 03:12 AM
Send ashi hamono a shig and ask him to copy it in Swedish stainless

JBroida
07-06-2013, 05:24 AM
Send ashi hamono a shig and ask him to copy it in Swedish stainless

do you guys realize this kind of thinking is really a problem for a lot of Japanese craftsmen? Not only does it reflect poorly on the person who asked, but also puts the craftsmen in a very bad position. This kind of problem seems to come up quite often in conversation here, specifically relating to foreigners way of thinking/ordering.

panda
07-06-2013, 05:35 AM
does he not do highly custom orders? not like asking to change heat treat or steels. i dont think it would be a problem for him to adjust grind and profile. it's business he would not have gotten otherwise, he can simply say no if he wasnt up for it. i have no interest in making such an order (rather just get a stainless gesshin hide in OPs situation) but i dont see how it's a problem to simply ask.

just to be clear i think custom orders are annoying and frivulous unless the craftsman specifically caters to custom work. i was under the impression hamono was such a person. there are people to do tweaking afterwords, such as yourself or dave.

JBroida
07-06-2013, 05:53 AM
not necessarily... sometimes, but thats not primarily what they do. In fact, custom orders are a very small part of what they do. Anyways, the point wasnt about one company in particular, but rather this method of thinking.

For example, not everyone thinks about it in the terms of it being business they would not have gotten otherwise, and saying no can sometimes be harder than you think. Craftsmen are generally very proud of what they do, and being asked to copy someone else's work can be very hurtful to them. In Japan, however, people are more likely to be non-confrontational as a cultural norm than we are here.

Just as another example, imagine i really love ferarri's design aesthetic and style, but would prefer to have a lamborghini. Both companies think what they do is better than the other, and take great pride in their cars. If i asked lamborghini to make me a ferarri, dont you think they would be deeply bothered by this?

Justin0505
07-06-2013, 05:55 AM
It was my understanding that part of what helps with the Shig grind is the very soft cladding. The cladding allows them to rough-shape the knife prior to heat treat using a draw tool like a sen.

When I looked very closely at my old 270 kitaeji gyuto I noticed that it was not just a combination of flat and convex, but that there as actually a concave section just below the spine which seemed to help make the transition from thick spin to thin blade in a smaller space.

JBroida
07-06-2013, 05:57 AM
something else to consider is that the possible heat treatments with clad knives versus zen-ko (Solid steel) knives are very different. In fact, i was just having this conversation today with a craftsmen here.

panda
07-06-2013, 05:59 AM
i look at it as a compliment because they think you can do what someone else does even better. isnt that what japanese is known for? making good stuff even better? perfecting, not innovating :D

maybe im crazy, but when i look at the grind on my shig, i looks backwards, like it was made for a lefty, yet cuts perfectly straight. it sure is a head scratcher.

maxim
07-06-2013, 06:00 AM
Very big :plus1:

Thats why we see so many secrecy now from many blacksmith in Japan. It is actually because of overseas sell.
They share a lot with etch other, but they also have respect for each other and dont copy or clone things.

That respect is not there with overseas costumers or makers :(

And BTW when i asked Yoshikane to make me Mono Steel Knives they was cheaper then San Mai, so that san mai is cheaper is just not true




not necessarily... sometimes, but thats not primarily what they do. In fact, custom orders are a very small part of what they do. Anyways, the point wasnt about one company in particular, but rather this method of thinking.

For example, not everyone thinks about it in the terms of it being business they would not have gotten otherwise, and saying no can sometimes be harder than you think. Craftsmen are generally very proud of what they do, and being asked to copy someone else's work can be very hurtful to them. In Japan, however, people are more likely to be non-confrontational as a cultural norm than we are here.

Just as another example, imagine i really love ferarri's design aesthetic and style, but would prefer to have a lamborghini. Both companies think what they do is better than the other, and take great pride in their cars. If i asked lamborghini to make me a ferarri, dont you think they would be deeply bothered by this?

panda
07-06-2013, 06:02 AM
re: secrecy, i always wondered why maker of jon's 'kochi' is not revealed. i will get a chance to use one very soon, pretty excited.

for example, if a guest asked me to recreate someone elses dish, i would not get offended but take the challenge if i had the time. at first i would ask why they dont go the place that makes it in the first place, and then promptly bust out my ego and think i can do it better. sure i would prefer they eat one of my creations, but theyre still getting the food from me and not the competition so it's still a win if you ask me.

but i can definitely see how pride can get in the way of this grey line, especially japanese culture.

Von blewitt
07-06-2013, 06:05 AM
If a customer came and asked me to cook a dish from another Restaurant I'd politely show them the door :D

JBroida
07-06-2013, 06:06 AM
actually for very similar reasons, but honestly, it was not my call. I always want to share information about the craftsmen (even though it has bitten me in the ass a number of times). However, like maxim said, many craftsmen wont do business with us unless i dont share any information about them.

JBroida
07-06-2013, 06:08 AM
If a customer came and asked me to cook a dish from another Restaurant I'd politely show them the door :D

thats a good example too... and just the same, some restaurants will do this. Most of them will regret it, but just have a very difficult time telling the customer no (this is common in american too, as well as many other countries). Sometimes its because people have the belief that the customer is always right, and sometimes its because saying no is thought to be extremely rude.

panda
07-06-2013, 06:10 AM
i have no problem saying no if i dont agree with a guest, but i dont have the beaurocratic freedom to decline most requests, unfortunate but i do see your point.

maxim
07-06-2013, 06:10 AM
I did it many times as a chef :D dont ever regret it !


If a customer came and asked me to cook a dish from another Restaurant I'd politely show them the door :D

JBroida
07-06-2013, 06:12 AM
yeah... its clearly a complicated issue, and most of the time i dont say anything about it... it just so happened that as you posted this, i just returned to my hotel from a craftsman's workshop where we had just finished a conversation about exactly this thing... and i've ended up having this conversation with every craftsman so far. Interestingly, i havent brought up the subject once.

panda
07-06-2013, 06:16 AM
do they all go 'those damn muricans have no respect for our pride!'? there are a lot of shady people who will taint the waters, and they ruin it for the rest of us who appreciate all the skill and blood sweat tears involved...

JBroida
07-06-2013, 06:17 AM
haha... for what its worth, its not just americans (though this kind of thinking is clearly very common in the US as a function of cultural norms)

maxim
07-06-2013, 06:29 AM
Nope, but they are careful thats it. They have just seen increase of Japanese like knives overseas.
As your post say, Lets clone Shig, lets clone Kato, Masamoto etc.
Instead on come up with something new and unique, BTW i see many US or EU makers still do that ! They come up with some amazing unique knives
But if you want a Shig you get Shig lol, you need to remember they work with steel and knives for about 60 years now its not new for them !
They have different gilds and meetings knife-shows like we have here. So they study a lot steel, geometry finish etc. all of blacksmiths do and they continue to do it !!

So there is big reason why they do what they do. They can get about any kind of steel, from US EU Japan etc. So it is not like they are limited to do some kind of steel
I know that Shigefusa made Honyaki before and he also made some of Tamahage , SS, mono steel he experimented with all of them
And he saddled with what he think is best for his kind of knives ! And what he want to achieve with his knives

Believe me it is not what is cheapest or easiest to make that is important for them. If he wanted he could make knives fro Cowry X steel and even thought it will be 2k more in price he will still sell it because of his popularity.
But he simply dont because he thinks that steel is not good for his knives

panda
07-06-2013, 06:35 AM
i do love my shig, it is so smooth in every aspect, about as sexy a knife i could think of without bling. the steel is a joy as well. its not my favorite knife, but it reaches out to me in such a unique way that i probably wont ever let it go. it does puzzle me why one would want a clone of this instead of the real thing. real chicken soup, or out of a can? hmmmm

Marko Tsourkan
07-06-2013, 06:54 AM
Shigefusa does finishing by hand, a fairly inefficient technique, if you ask makers who do all processes on the grinder (bar sharpening), but results in a finish that made Shigefusa famous among knife nuts in the first place. To do the same finish on a monosteel hardened ot 62-63RC is even more inefficient than on a soft clad knife, but again, the end result is worth for some.

Asking somebody to copy a grind is not a guarantee that the copy will be good. Shigefusa has tweaked their grind over years (I have seen different generations of Shiges), and current blades are much better cutters than blades before. Can this be captured in one copy? Maybe, as people often get lucky the first time. And that can be said about any grind. One has to get consistently good grinding a certain geometry (and reinforce it with an ongoing feedback) to guarantee a certain result.

That is why you see makers sticking to a geometry they have perfected grinding. Difficulty of a finish has to do with it somewhat - there are limits how much finishing can be done on a machine, so that forces people to adopt one geometry over another.

To say something is clone is to imply identical copy. Rarely the case, as conditions are different (forge to shape, soft cladding, etc). Reasonable approximation would be the best outcome.

M

Lefty
07-06-2013, 07:26 AM
I'm off, for the day, but I did want to add two quick things to this thread. The first being that, I believe it was panda, is correct. From the double bevels I've been looking at, there is a hollow about 2/3rds of the way up the right face, with more convexing on the lefthand side. The second is that I'm surprised that the newer Shiges are better cutters than the older ones. The santoku I just stole from myself is approximately 8-10 years old, and the grind really impressed me. I didn't notice a hollow on it, however, so maybe that's part of the tweaked grind?

Anywho, tee-time is at 8am.... :)

PS. I just re checked the santoku and it's there, but not as obviously.

panda
07-06-2013, 07:33 AM
maybe the two sons spend less time polishing and concentrating more on making them better cutters! i dont really care about finish at all as long as food doesnt stick.

Marko Tsourkan
07-06-2013, 07:43 AM
I think Shigefusa started tweaking their grind because of this forum, as users' preferences finally trickled down to the maker. Thinner is very subjective. .5mm might seem like a small number, but it makes a big difference in cutting performance.

I have tried several generations of Shiges with latest giving the most impressive performance. However, somebody perhaps finds earlier version more appealing as change in one things in geometry usually results in a change to something else, and those could be subjective things.

M

maxim
07-06-2013, 09:31 AM
For Shigefusa it will be no problem to polish mono steel knife. It will be same as for him polishing San Mai
As all polishing is done before heat tread with files, sen and stones. After heat tread knife is they do final polishing. And believe me they way they do it dose not madder much if blade is san mai or mono steel.

Mono steel knives like Masamoto KS or others is considered much easier to make with much more Profit, they do not need any forging or special heat tread to make them stay straight.
Unlike Honyakis witch is forged and hardened with different hardening is way more expensive to make then San Mai !

So if you talking about Profit then mono steel knives is much easier to make and request a lot less time !

DevinT
07-06-2013, 11:37 AM
The subject of copying another's work is very complex and interesting. It is impossible to make a knife without copying somebody's work. If a person were able to make a knife totally by him self, it probably would not function very well.

In Japan there is the idea that you have to apprentice with a master in order to become great at something. The master picks his students carefully in order to carry on his ideas and innovations.

The truth is that everyone copy's someone else's work. A person copy's everyone else but wants the copying to stop as soon as he comes up with a good, innovative idea himself.

The family creating Shigefusa learned from others how to forge, grind, heat treat, polish and even how to run a business. They have their own style and have improved from their experience.

We recently had a nasty thread about Ken Onion's knives, and what seems to bother most people is the fact that he did not copy others but designed his own knives. How dare he try and come up with something new.

It's smart to copy other's work. I never like it when it happens to me, but I am guilty of taking ideas from other makers. I made knives as a kid without much help and it was not until I worked with a professional maker that my biggest improvement came.

An abundant mentality is a lot more productive than a scarcity mentality. It is when we take without giving back that problems arise.

Love and respect

Hoss

maxim
07-06-2013, 11:51 AM
I agree on many levels !
There is a huge difference of learning from someone how to forge polish etc. and just steal ideas :)
I know it can be quite hard to see the difference but its there.
Like you said
It is when we take without giving back that problems arise.

Also just have common sense and respect to each other can help a lot :D

I think new ideas and unique knives in many cases tell a lot about blacksmith ! That he trying to be unique is a very brave step and shows in many cases that he is not there just for the money.

gic
07-06-2013, 12:04 PM
I'm confused, are you saying that asking my asking if someone makes a knife with similar geometry to a shig in a stainless steel not a reasonable question?

(In fact having gotten the feedback here, I am ordering one of Marko's custom knives in AEB-L for exactly that reason. It will not be identical to a shig but it will have a geometry that gives similar results - and that is what I was looking for.)

gic
07-06-2013, 12:09 PM
I have a wa shig, I love it, I will soon have a yo handled damascus shig that I will love as well. I just wanted something like a shig geometry in stainless for the times I want a stainless knife.... If I could buy one from them, I would but they don't do stainless obviously....

Mrmnms
07-06-2013, 12:21 PM
It's posts like this that keep me coming back to this forum. Thank you for you wisdom. I'm sure Marko and Devin could produce exactly what you're looking for. I look forward to when it!s my turn for a DT and Marko knife.
The subject of copying another's work is very complex and interesting. It is impossible to make a knife without copying somebody's work. If a person were able to make a knife totally by him self, it probably would not function very well.

In Japan there is the idea that you have to apprentice with a master in order to become great at something. The master picks his students carefully in order to carry on his ideas and innovations.

The truth is that everyone copy's someone else's work. A person copy's everyone else but wants the copying to stop as soon as he comes up with a good, innovative idea himself.

The family creating Shigefusa learned from others how to forge, grind, heat treat, polish and even how to run a business. They have their own style and have improved from their experience.

We recently had a nasty thread about Ken Onion's knives, and what seems to bother most people is the fact that he did not copy others but designed his own knives. How dare he try and come up with something new.

It's smart to copy other's work. I never like it when it happens to me, but I am guilty of taking ideas from other makers. I made knives as a kid without much help and it was not until I worked with a professional maker that my biggest improvement came.

An abundant mentality is a lot more productive than a scarcity mentality. It is when we take without giving back that problems arise.

Love and respect

Hoss

Marko Tsourkan
07-06-2013, 12:30 PM
It's posts like this that keep me coming back to this forum. Thank you for you wisdom. I'm sure Marko and Devin could produce exactly what you're looking for. I look forward to when it!s my turn for a DT and Marko knife.

I tried 4 different geometries before I settled on one I use now. I don't copy blindly, it has to make sense to me - where pros outweight cons. From as little as I know, every geometry has cons.

Things that I look for in geometries:

-Food release
-Long term maintenance (ease of thinning by hand, so the knife is functional)
-Sturdiness

I adopted a few things from Shigefusa geometry (I have no idea how they do it, but I took a concept and made it work), a few things from DT geometry, a profile from Masamoto (altered). I don't do these 1:1, the result is a blend of all.

I agree with Devin to a word in his post in this thread.

M

Crothcipt
07-06-2013, 08:18 PM
Marko this thread is what I was trying to get across on this thread.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/13062-Knife-Performance-Contest?p=219736&viewfull=1#post219736

I wasn't meaning you couldn't, but it wasn't/isn't your way of making one.

I do want to see your final result with that knife tho.

Marko Tsourkan
07-06-2013, 08:39 PM
Many could make a copy (and people copy all the time for that matter, think Loveless drop point), but going by the saying "Greeks didn't invented anything, but everything they copied, they improved upon", is it worth it?

The final result will be different, as I am out of the mode of proving things, and back to the mode of "does it make sense?". I stated that and reasons behind in a later post in that thread.

M

bkultra
07-06-2013, 08:54 PM
(In fact having gotten the feedback here, I am ordering one of Marko's custom knives in AEB-L for exactly that reason. It will not be identical to a shig but it will have a geometry that gives similar results - and that is what I was looking for.)

I'm sure you will be very happy with your choice. I wouldn't of recommend Marko if I did not think he was a perfect match for your needs. He places a lot of attention to fit and finish and is truly a perfectionist (much like Shigefusa). I love two different knives 1) Masamoto for its profile 2) Shigefusa for its geometry. Having owned both, one of Marko's knives is next on my list.

RRLOVER
07-06-2013, 10:51 PM
I have a wa Shig and I do love it, I even have a Shig damascus with a yo(!) handle that will be coming to me soon that I got a Japanese friend to order for me from Kiya in Japan. (Luckily while they don't seem to make many yo's anymore-especially in damascus-Kiya seems to have some extra pull with them and they made it for me, I'm chomping at the bit to get it-it should be here by the end of the month.)

Still, I was thinking it would be insanely cool if I could buy a Shig profile knife in a high end stainless steel like AEB-L . Have any of the custom makers here made something close to this? Even better is there any semi custom knife that is close to a Shig profile that is in a mono stainless?

How could you not want a stainless shigi!!!...... I know I was tired of using my stinky ass... rusting...food coloring...turd...hmm....sorry no love for the shigi cladding...:razz:

jgraeff
07-07-2013, 12:22 AM
I have to add her Marko's knives do in fact have influences from shigefusa, on some levels and some surpass and some do not.

When i used a shig last year it has been the only knife that really just felt like an extension of my hand. not because of the handle because it was nothing special and im still not sure why but it just felt like the tool was intended to be in my hand and used any way i wanted to.

Now in terms of steel in my opinion Marko's carbon is way better! Shig had decent edge retention and got really sharp, but my Marko custom gets sharp like white steel but holds and edge like crazy, i mean probably equivalent of 5-6 sharpening of shig to one of his.

Food release- i would say this is pretty close, almost a tie. Both are pretty good.

But i agree with Mario i mean stainless like cpm154 or stainless that can perform i will choose over carbon every time less hassle equals more time working in the kitchen.

panda
07-07-2013, 11:43 AM
would love to try his 52100 steel, how was it on the stones? beauty of shig's steel is that it's so damn easy to sharpen with the best 'feel' on stones.

Marko Tsourkan
07-07-2013, 12:12 PM
would love to try his 52100 steel, how was it on the stones? beauty of shig's steel is that it's so damn easy to sharpen with the best 'feel' on stones.

I will have a few ready-made 225mm gyutos in 52100 and A2 out by the end of the month. I would ask folks for feedback and reviews and criticism, private or public, and if somebody want to do a passround, I am all for it.

But again, these are not Shig or Masamoto or DT clones, but rather the melting pot of things I like.

M

jgraeff
07-07-2013, 12:50 PM
would love to try his 52100 steel, how was it on the stones? beauty of shig's steel is that it's so damn easy to sharpen with the best 'feel' on stones.

super easy to sharpen, with my gesshin 4k literally 6 strokes and have a big nice burr, burr removal isnt an issue either, maybe i have gotten better at sharpening or is easy to remove on his steel.

I would compare to white steel if even easier honestly.

panda
07-07-2013, 12:53 PM
wow, and edge retention more like blue?

jgraeff
07-07-2013, 02:01 PM
No better I get about 2-3 months in between sharpenings. I do strop on diamond every two weeks or so. And I use it everyday hard. Great steel, great knife!!

panda
07-07-2013, 02:14 PM
holy ****!

mainaman
07-07-2013, 02:27 PM
How could you not want a stainless shigi!!!...... I know I was tired of using my stinky ass... rusting...food coloring...turd...hmm....sorry no love for the shigi cladding...:razz:
mine was never too reactive, probably the minority though

tk59
07-07-2013, 02:39 PM
mine was never too reactive, probably the minority thoughMine is plenty reactive.

Marko Tsourkan
07-07-2013, 03:43 PM
...
Mono steel knives like Masamoto KS or others is considered much easier to make with much more Profit, they do not need any forging or special heat tread to make them stay straight.
Unlike Honyakis witch is forged and hardened with different hardening is way more expensive to make then San Mai !



Couple of points to address:

Honyaki and monosteel blades are essentially the same with the exception that one is forged to shape and requires annealing before heat treating and the other is cut from a sheet of steel and requires profilign. After a forged blank is annealed, they are heat treated the same - quenched in water or oil. In US most makers quench carbon steels in medium to fast oil to to minimize warpage, but many still quench in water for more active hamon (W2 and 1095, etc). Rarely blades are coming out of a quenching medium perfectly straight, almost always some straightening required during the process of making a knife.

Hamon on nonyaki is not for decoration but for make the steel to absorb shock better and to make it easier to straighten the edge. Removing scratches (as you know yourself) from hardened monosteel is no fun, and that is where a whole lot of work is. Monosteel blades hardened to 62-63RC, with steels that have some chromium, vanadium and other alloys that are harder than iron, are often much more difficult to finish than a typical honyaki at 64RC or so, let alone san mai with a soft cladding. I can refinish san mai in 30 minutes, while a monosteel blade can take me 2-3 hours or more.

To straighten the edge on a san mai, all you need to do is to bent the spine in the spot where you see warpage on the edge. If you know of an easy way of straightening monosteel blade, I would like to know it, as I haven't found one (easy) yet.

Steels like 52100 is a deep hardening steel because of presence of chromium, so hamon method straightening the edge would not work.
M

maxim
07-07-2013, 04:30 PM
If you use 2 or 3 hrs to polish the blade then something is wrong with your technique.
Most of the polishing as I said is done before heat tread
And yeah exactly stock removal mono steel blades take much less time to make so more profit

Marko Tsourkan
07-07-2013, 04:53 PM
To get uniform cooling on the blade, which in turn minimizes distortion (cooling is quite a violent process), the blanks are left at full thickness, including honyaki, which it typically forged thicker.

When I polish a blade, I don't just cover scratches, but completely remove preceding scratches before moving up a grit, that is why it takes me the long it takes.

I have nothing more to add to this argument.

M

maxim
07-07-2013, 05:07 PM
Still 2 or 3 hrs or more sounds like a lot really a lot. I usually polish both Claded knives and Mono Steel knives. I did try to polish both 1095 and 52100 mono steel and time is about the same as Kasumi knives
I will agree that Mono Steel knives Take much more time to Thin, but in makers case it is done on a grinder not on stones !
But polishing or refinishing it Takes about same time for me, and i do not cover up scratches :D

RRLOVER
07-07-2013, 06:50 PM
mine was never too reactive, probably the minority though

I have owned/used/sold five different shigis.....all were plenty reactive......why would I want to use a knife that turns my food colors???....just because the cool kids are doing it???

maxim
07-07-2013, 07:12 PM
Worked in pro kitchen some years with Shig never had that problem.

I have owned/used/sold five different shigis.....all were plenty reactive......why would I want to use a knife that turns my food colors???....just because the cool kids are doing it???
But yeah if you are not used to work with Carbon knives i get the idea

RRLOVER
07-07-2013, 09:26 PM
Worked in pro kitchen some years with Shig never had that problem.

But yeah if you are not used to work with Carbon knives i get the idea


??????? What does a "Carbon" knife have to do with the reactive cladding used by shigi??.....I do own/owned a "few" carbon knives...my main knife is O1/L6 knife I made from Delberts dammy.

chinacats
07-07-2013, 10:03 PM
I think there must be some variance in this...I've had a couple and my gyuto seemed to be no more reactive than most carbons I've used. Never had any issues with food being discolored, and I have had issues with other knives doing this.

maxim
07-08-2013, 03:59 AM
When i worked as Chef i used to give my students very reactive Carbon knives, it teached them cleanness. If it discolored food and get rusted then it was they fault not knives.
In the and they had much more respect for all knives SS or carbon. And also they working aria become much more cleaner :D

ms4awd
07-08-2013, 04:49 AM
I think there must be some variance in this...I've had a couple and my gyuto seemed to be no more reactive than most carbons I've used. Never had any issues with food being discolored, and I have had issues with other knives doing this.

i would agree with the variance. I have a couple shigs i use in my rotation and i noticed the kasumi i have is a bit less reactive than the kitaeji fwiw. The kitaeji i have is a yo handle integral and i was forced to patina the tang because it would develop orange dots/pits from handling. Beautiful knife but can be high maintenance. I do have a kitaeji deba and hav not had issues at all with that one but i only use it to butcher fish but it stays pretty wet the whole time until im done and so far no issues (knock on wood) a little patina has set over time but nothing extreme like rust spots or pitting so far.

Not sure if others experience is the same i always just chalked it up to maybe more reactive iron for the kitaeji cladding. Both mine i forced a patina when i used them regularly and it helped a lot with reactivity and discoloring food. When new onions and cabbage really stunk when cut with either i noticed this also on a fowler w2 gyuto i used to own. I forced a mustard patina and sharpened the edge to a really high polish and it was less reactive after that though i didnt use it much after.

bkultra
07-08-2013, 08:11 AM
I have heard some say that kitaeji is more reactive and others say its less. In fact the same could be said about the brand. Some find it very reactive others state it's no worse then other carbon knives. Maybe it just comes down to people's habits and/or expectations.