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bamin
07-13-2013, 01:18 PM
Does anyone know anything about "black steel" or is it just a gimmick from c*k*t*g?

Thanks!

Timthebeaver
07-13-2013, 01:50 PM
The steel might be good, but the name is a gimmick.

NO ChoP!
07-13-2013, 02:03 PM
I had an itto ryu in white #1and it was deba thick and had terrible fit and finish....

chinacats
07-13-2013, 02:05 PM
And just like any other steel, it is only as good as the person doing the ht/grind, etc...kind of like a richmond aebl--good steel (potential), half-ass knife.

Timthebeaver
07-13-2013, 02:07 PM
I had an itto ryu in white #1and it was deba thick and had terrible fit and finish....

I don't think he's referring to those black-finish Itto-ryu knives, but rather to that other brand which is purportedly made from "black steel" and is finished by a "sword polisher".

bkultra
07-13-2013, 02:32 PM
I think he is talking about ******** knives (******** means "black"). These are imported by Ken and sold only through CK2G. They also call the steel "black steel"... They might be good but for 1k and so many secrets Ill never find out.

bamin
07-13-2013, 03:19 PM
Yeah, I was referring to the ones imported by Ken. I was just curious, but I agree way too much money for something shrouded in mystery.

bkultra
07-13-2013, 03:20 PM
I hear they are quenched in the blood of unicorns

Brad Gibson
07-13-2013, 03:48 PM
I hear they are quenched in the blood of unicorns

Hahahahaha

These are the single sided gyutos I was talking about a while back. They seem way too expensive.

Timthebeaver
07-13-2013, 03:57 PM
Hahahahaha

These are the single sided gyutos I was talking about a while back. They seem way too expensive.

No, those are the Itto-ryus

He's talking about the Noob-at-armours

bamin
07-13-2013, 04:28 PM
I hear they are quenched in the blood of unicorns

Does unicorn blood trump mermaid tears?

Brad Gibson
07-13-2013, 04:49 PM
im pretty sure if its black steel from the site not allowed here than its the itto ryu black mirror single bevel gyutos

Timthebeaver
07-13-2013, 04:51 PM
im pretty sure if its black steel from the site not allowed here than its the itto ryu black mirror single bevel gyutos

Nope. Go to that site and look at knives beginning with "N"

Those black-finish Itto-ryu knives are Shiro #1.

Brad Gibson
07-13-2013, 04:53 PM
i see.... those are also quite overpriced! insane

chinacats
07-13-2013, 04:53 PM
Nuuu ba toooo muh, by the great Kenmeister...lots of wabisabi.:lol2:

labor of love
07-13-2013, 05:22 PM
Nuuu ba toooo muh,: how about nuuu ba too much $$$

Timthebeaver
07-13-2013, 05:33 PM
http://i.qkme.me/3v634e.jpg

Brad Gibson
07-13-2013, 05:46 PM
http://i.qkme.me/3v634e.jpg

Hahahahhahaja

brainsausage
07-13-2013, 06:05 PM
The video of the yanagi being used to ruin a price of fish isn't exactly what I'd called good advertising...

Dave Martell
07-13-2013, 07:27 PM
This thread is funny on many levels. :D

brainsausage
07-13-2013, 07:34 PM
This thread is funny on many levels. :D

Dave, you sadist! ;)

panda
07-13-2013, 07:47 PM
who's going to counter with purple 'royal' steel? sword polishing might be more historically relevant in that case :D

Marko Tsourkan
07-13-2013, 07:58 PM
Would covering steel with blue Dykem layout fluid make it blue steel? If so, I can get black, red and some other cool colors and start offering a whole range of steels. I have heard one can get a whole lot of money for black steel.

M

brainsausage
07-13-2013, 08:43 PM
The video of the yanagi being used to ruin a price of fish isn't exactly what I'd called good advertising...

Crap, that should've said piece, not price.

schanop
07-13-2013, 08:53 PM
Both convey the same attitude :-)

Dave Martell
07-13-2013, 08:57 PM
Black Steel = Snake Oil

It's either steel that's been etched/blued and then likely buffed (for the shiny "mirror" effect) or it's just a fake name made up by a fraud.

Sarge
07-13-2013, 11:40 PM
The video of the yanagi being used to ruin a price of fish isn't exactly what I'd called good advertising...

I don't know the yanagiba did a fine job cutting the fish I think the person handling it could stand to improve knife skills a bit, but I don't think it was awful.

The knives on the other hand are an entirely different story

Stumblinman
07-14-2013, 12:05 AM
Go to your local home supply store and you can get schedule 40 and 80 black steel :) This is funny cause it's called 'black' because of the oxidation on the outside when made. So therefore if you remove the oxidation it's no longer black...

http://www.hwsteel.com/technology/2012-08/article-117.html

ThEoRy
07-14-2013, 01:08 AM
Ill see your


http://i.qkme.me/3v634e.jpg

and raise you a

16980

ChuckTheButcher
07-14-2013, 01:15 AM
They have a list of steel on cktg that explains each ones characteristics. Oddly they don't have any info on black steel. That's a red flag to me.

Justin0505
07-14-2013, 01:44 AM
Funny pointing and laughing going on here, and I'd agree that they are priced high and coated in thick layers of Schwartz. However, I got the chance to use a 210 and it's indeed a good knife.
The steel reminds me of Takeda's blue super in terms of feel: hard, but not glass-hard has good chip resistance, easy to sharpen / gets stupid sharp, holds onto teeth well even at high polish.... edge retention is very good. It's difficult to compare, but I'd say as good or better than Takeda, possibly approaching Dave's 01. Reactivity is weird: doesn't seem super reactive, but it gets VERY dark... darker than anything else that I've used. Not that it really matters, but OTB edge was as good as I've ever seen: done by someone who understood sharpening and understood the steel.

Blade is thin but has very little flex, and in many ways reminds me of a Carter, maybe not quite as thin BTE, but with a much more even grind and finish. The finish is really weird it looks almost like the finish you'd get from a pretty coarse wire wheel, but it's very even and very smooth and shiney. Almost like if you took a really coarse but even finish and then buffed the heck out of it. Weird, but not bad or wrong... it may be done by a sword polisher, but it sure looks like he's using power tools, not stones. Price and MARKeting are the real problems with this one.

chinacats
07-14-2013, 01:53 AM
Price and MARKeting are the real problems with this one.


:rofl2:

mainaman
07-14-2013, 02:40 AM
From what I have heard, there is not such thing as Black Steel in Japan.
The types steel used in Japan predominantly are well known, so this is one of them.
I hope people do not fall for the whole mysterious steel crap.

Dave Martell
07-14-2013, 02:45 AM
Does the name "Black Steel" remind anyone else of 70's porn? :D

mainaman
07-14-2013, 02:49 AM
They have a list of steel on cktg that explains each ones characteristics. Oddly they don't have any info on black steel. That's a red flag to me.
they do not want to let you know that you are buying 240 mm of white2/blue2/blue super/white1/blue 1 (whichever it is) for ~ $1k. It is so much easier to claim the steel was forged with powerful spells, and cuts food just by pointing at it from a foot away. Ken renames J-Nats as well, and I mean completely made up names.

Stumblinman
07-14-2013, 04:04 AM
maybe because it's larger than other versions...

Timthebeaver
07-14-2013, 04:42 AM
The finish is really weird it looks almost like the finish you'd get from a pretty coarse wire wheel, but it's very even and very smooth and shiney. Almost like if you took a really coarse but even finish and then buffed the heck out of it. Weird, but not bad or wrong... it may be done by a sword polisher, but it sure looks like he's using power tools, not stones. Price and MARKeting are the real problems with this one.

It's been explicitly stated that it's been done using J-Nats. Weird indeed.

Justin0505
07-14-2013, 04:56 AM
It's been explicitly stated that it's been done using J-Nats. Weird indeed.

I admit to not knowing much about sword polishing, and have only started to scratch the surface (har har) when it comes to jnats, so there very well could be some magic finishing sorcery that I don't know about... but I really don't know how you'd create a finish like that just natural stones.

However, the edge did feel very much like the one that I have since replicated using a combo of jnats.... although it would also be possible to accomplish using a mix of synthetics and a strategic progression.

Also, I didn't see the mention that only jnats where used.... just that finishing is done by an independent sword polisher who also does the engraving (which was well done in a less odd way than the finish).

labor of love
07-14-2013, 10:44 PM
Does the name "Black Steel" remind anyone else of 70's porn? :D

or maybe steely dan?:shocked3:

Crothcipt
07-15-2013, 02:08 AM
Ok I was reading this today at work, waited until I got home to look it up. Why is that guy pulling the cut fish off the stock. And what does this mean?


The knives are made by a knifemaker whose family has been making knives for generations. While the details are a closely guarded secret, the steel itself is considerably more expensive than the blue or white steels and more difficult to work, yet produces a superb result. It is the highest quality of steel that the knifemaker uses. These knives are individually made. In addition, he also uses both white and blue steels, which are less expensive.

Does he mix the steels, to make a 500$ petty?? Is his family ex-sword makers that are feeling the change in the regime and trying to go back to old days??? I guess Most of the knives we like and see is doing it wrong.

Justin0505
07-15-2013, 03:55 AM
I think what the description is saying is that the mystery maker also makes white and blue steel knives, but that the mystery "black" steel is the more expensive. All houcs-pocus and marketing aside, I really don't see what that big deal is about a maker being a little secretive.
I know Devin often doesn't reveal steel names and instead uses designations like "super wear resistant (SWR)" , PM, Spicey White, etc. Both Shig and Kato also don't disclose their actual steel names / formulations, and I know that there are many more that do the same. Jon of JKI also doesn't always disclose maker or materials, and this is often by request of the maker.

There are many obvious benefits to some secrecy, not the least of which is to make it more difficult for people trying to knock off your work... which is also nothing new but perhaps a little ironic considering who's selling the knives. I'm not saying the parties involved in the sale of these knives don't make excellent punchlines for some good ol' trolling, but it's a little hypocritical to make a big deal to take much actual objection when many of our own well-liked makers and retailers do the same thing.

Timthebeaver
07-15-2013, 04:04 AM
I think what the description is saying is that the mystery maker also makes white and blue steel knives, but that the mystery "black" steel is the more expensive. All houcs-pocus and marketing aside, I really don't see what that big deal is about a maker being a little secretive.
I know Devin often doesn't reveal steel names and instead uses designations like "super wear resistant (SWR)" , PM, Spicey White, etc. Both Shig and Kato also don't disclose their actual steel names / formulations, and I know that there are many more that do the same. Jon of JKI also doesn't always disclose maker or materials, and this is often by request of the maker.

There are many obvious benefits to some secrecy, not the least of which is to make it more difficult for people trying to knock off your work... which is also nothing new but perhaps a little ironic considering who's selling the knives. I'm not saying the parties involved in the sale of these knives don't make excellent punchlines for some good ol' trolling, but it's a little hypocritical to make a big deal to take much actual objection when many of our own well-liked makers and retailers do the same thing.


I have no issue with the secrecy, just the hyperbole/mumbo-jumbo that it's the foundation for.

panda
07-15-2013, 04:10 AM
this thread made me spin gaucho on the record player.

edredlee
07-15-2013, 06:15 AM
I think what the description is saying is that the mystery maker also makes white and blue steel knives, but that the mystery "black" steel is the more expensive. All houcs-pocus and marketing aside, I really don't see what that big deal is about a maker being a little secretive.
I know Devin often doesn't reveal steel names and instead uses designations like "super wear resistant (SWR)" , PM, Spicey White, etc. Both Shig and Kato also don't disclose their actual steel names / formulations, and I know that there are many more that do the same. Jon of JKI also doesn't always disclose maker or materials, and this is often by request of the maker.

There are many obvious benefits to some secrecy, not the least of which is to make it more difficult for people trying to knock off your work... which is also nothing new but perhaps a little ironic considering who's selling the knives. I'm not saying the parties involved in the sale of these knives don't make excellent punchlines for some good ol' trolling, but it's a little hypocritical to make a big deal to take much actual objection when many of our own well-liked makers and retailers do the same thing.

+1

franzb69
07-15-2013, 06:52 AM
as always i'm with you on this justin.

ChiliPepper
07-15-2013, 07:27 AM
Bah, I like a bit of mistery around top-end products and understand that protecting one's business counts in as much as marketing hype but really, at that price point you must be intentionally targeting more rich newbies than knowledgeable pros/collectionists.
I mean, Hattori-san (just to name one) has no problems in telling you that he's selling a cowry-x blade heat treated so-and-so and it costs what it costs for materials and craftmanship involved. No big mysteries but I think nobody will argue that the price is well deserved and that the final result is worth every penny.

maxim
07-15-2013, 07:44 AM
I think it just make people confused when you invent new steel that dose not exist :tease:
Better to say then its secret that's it
Same with Jnats

Timthebeaver
07-15-2013, 07:59 AM
I think it just make people confused when you invent new steel that dose not exist :tease:
Better to say then its secret that's it


This. "Black Steel" deliberately invites comparison with the Yasugi paper steels, in an attempt to create more mystique. If you want to say that the steel is a high quality alloy, which the maker wishes not to disclose, that's fine.

Justin0505
07-15-2013, 08:13 AM
I think it just make people confused when you invent new steel that dose not exist :tease:
Better to say then its secret that's it
Same with Jnats

I get the distinction between saying something is a secret and making up a name for it, and I (and I think everyone here) would always rather people just state clearly and simply what they are doing vs. jazzing it up and trying to put a sales spin on it. I'm all for the quality / virtues and reputation of a product selling itself, not the advertising.
Sadly, that's not the way that consumerism and mainstream businesses usually operate.
However, in practice, the difference between calling something "special secret steel", "spicey steel", or "black steel" is really pretty slight. Let's even take "official" names: what are they other than just the marketing that the companies that made them came up with. I mean white and blue were named in order to match packaging. SG2 is short for "super gold 2" and AFAIK there's not a molecule of gold in there. Different steel companies even have different names for the same formulation of steel. Names are next to meaningless. What matters is the description of the properties of the steel and the accuracy of the description.

I don't have a problem with people criticising this vendor for things that they do that are ACTUALLY wrong, products or practices that are substandard, or mocking the ineptitude of some of their blind fans / reviewers. But making a big deal out of a nickname for a secret steel... one that may have come from the maker after all, just seems silly. Like the chess club kids calling the computer club kids nerds, or the Madonna fans calling the Elton fans gay.

maxim
07-15-2013, 08:20 AM
Yeah agree :)
I don't have problem with nicknames, just so it is clear that it is a nickname and not actual steel.

maxim
07-15-2013, 08:29 AM
Also on another note
Maybe makers heat thread and feeling of the steel is soooo different from normal
In many cases its even maybe good to give it some kind of nickname or just not mention what steel it is

Many of us here know there is big difference what you do with the steel to how it performs
But for regular customer it might not be clear and they will just think that white 2 is just white 2
And take cheapest white 2

bieniek
07-15-2013, 09:00 AM
I personally think that Kato uses cheaest steel available, or same to Shigefusa, nothing special, maybe it is the balck steel lol?
but as Max said if amateurs found out its white steel they wouldve said "wow crap steel for so much money? Why? "

And in the same time, respect to him for taking the very best out of it cause even if it would be white steel number 1340 with 0.01 carbon in it his job is spectacular.

jaybett
07-15-2013, 11:24 AM
The problem is that there is no context for the name Black Steel, because the maker is unknown. It's the reputation of a maker, the ability to design, grind, forge, heat treat, that people are buying. It's also how value is assessed. The black steel knives would be exceptional deals, if they were found out to be made by Murray Carter or Bill Burke. Conversely if they were made by Moritaka, they would be grossly over priced.

What is confusing in the description is Black Steel as a concept/ideal and being an actual product. Supposedly the ******** line, including the stones, derived its name, because of the use of black steel, in its knives. ******** is also a concept that implies a beautiful black such as a ladies hair, and a so called characteristic of hardness. I have no idea what that means.

Jay

I didn't know Nu-bah-too-ma was black listed. Now that's irony.

Chef Doom
07-27-2013, 05:48 PM
This thread put a nice smile to my face.

I asked Jon if he had heard anything about black steel a few months back or the line of the knife. He gave me this blank empty clueless look on his face as if I asked him the question in an ancient long forgotten Martian dialect and simply shrugged. I subconsciously put the concept in the back of my mind and never thought about it again until I read this thread.

JBroida
07-27-2013, 05:53 PM
its not like i have no clue... i actually asked a bunch of craftsmen and steel experts in japan about this

Ruso
07-28-2013, 01:35 AM
What was their answer(s)?

JBroida
07-28-2013, 01:50 AM
Marketing

Stumblinman
07-28-2013, 04:46 AM
LOL I use black steel to route gas to my stoves......

Chef Doom
07-28-2013, 06:15 AM
its not like i have no clue... i actually asked a bunch of craftsmen and steel experts in japan about this

I see, I should have asked a follow up later on. I just stopped caring after a while. I wonder what the good folks at Korin have to say.

I'm thinking about selling a black steel 9 piece set of pots and pans. $2000 for the whole set. Only slightly heavily used. Any takers?

Stumblinman
07-28-2013, 06:19 AM
I used black steel to make my fenders.... well at the store they called it schedule 40. :D

JKerr
07-28-2013, 11:31 AM
I see, I should have asked a follow up later on. I just stopped caring after a while. I wonder what the good folks at Korin have to say.

I'm thinking about selling a black steel 9 piece set of pots and pans. $2000 for the whole set. Only slightly heavily used. Any takers?

Are the pans finished by a sword polisher on Jnats? I'd be interested if so....:eyebrow:

ThEoRy
07-28-2013, 10:20 PM
Are the pans finished by a sword polisher on Jnats? I'd be interested if so....:eyebrow:

Why yes, yes they are.

17475

labor of love
07-28-2013, 10:22 PM
looks like that black steel might have an overgrind:lol2:

ThEoRy
07-28-2013, 10:29 PM
looks like that black steel might have an overgrind:lol2:

17477