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View Full Version : Best grind on a production knife?



ar11
07-21-2013, 01:26 PM
Playing around with a yusuke, I'm digging the grind, definitely behaves a bit differently when cutting than my other lower end knives. Now I'm curious what people see at the best cutters out of box.

wsfarrell
07-21-2013, 01:31 PM
Ignoring edge sharpness, edge retention, and profile, the best grinds I've seen in terms of falling through food are the Sakai Yusuke "extra thick" from bluewayjapan on eBay, and the Konosuke Fujiyama series.

Pensacola Tiger
07-21-2013, 01:43 PM
First, define what you mean by "best cutter". Is is "falling through food", excellent food separation or something else?

mhlee
07-22-2013, 04:29 PM
First, define what you mean by "best cutter". Is is "falling through food", excellent food separation or something else?

+1

Lefty
07-22-2013, 04:31 PM
Factory grind, mass produced? Small "batch knives"? Midtechs? It's hard to say no matter what class you mean, but I'm very fond of DT ITK, Carter SFGZ, and the Misono Dragon.

Zwiefel
07-22-2013, 04:56 PM
This is a subject I'm still trying to wrap my head around...but I've heard several knowledgeable people remark on the quality of the grind on the Suisin Inox Honyaki series. Most esp on the consistency of the grind on these knives over time. 2 different dimensions of your question though.

ar11
07-22-2013, 05:35 PM
Sorry should have clarified, falling through food without much sticktion (sp?) and minimal steering. I haven't handled many knives, but hear people talking constantly about messed up grinds which diminishes performance.

labor of love
07-22-2013, 05:40 PM
i propose you simply reword your question. substituting "your favorite" inplace of "the best". theres too many diverse opinions, with different preferences for how we like our grinds, and what we consider to be good cutters.
maybe more like, what is your favorite production knife in terms of a good grind and ootb cutting ability?

tripleq
07-22-2013, 05:42 PM
Sakai Yusuke are definitly up there but it is tough not to mention Tadatsuna as well.

panda
07-22-2013, 10:20 PM
Kochi migaki and Watanabe pro have the least steering of the knives I've tried. I just sliced a case of tomatoes and they look like they were done on a machine, no wedgies.

EdipisReks
07-22-2013, 10:39 PM
Heiji, so far.

bkdc
07-22-2013, 10:57 PM
What the heck does the OP mean by production knife? One grind is not necessarily better than another.

greasedbullet
07-22-2013, 11:13 PM
What the heck does the OP mean by production knife?

I think he means highly produced/non-custom knives. And while I agree that grind preferences are very personal there are some knives that are obviously better at most tasks than others. For example if I give you a F. Dick chef knife and a Watanabe gyuto the Watanabe is going to be better for most tasks than the F. Dick.

chinacats
07-23-2013, 12:15 AM
Heiji for push cutting, Shig for chopping!

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 12:17 AM
Heiji for push cutting, Shig for chopping!

I'm not sure I understand the distinction?

panda
07-23-2013, 12:43 AM
maybe i need to try a carbon heiji...

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 12:47 AM
maybe i need to try a carbon heiji...

they rule. but no more than the semi-stainless Gesshin (I have a brand new carbon direct ordered from Heiji and a brand new semi-stainless Gesshin Heiji in my rotation, right now).

chinacats
07-23-2013, 12:57 AM
I'm not sure I understand the distinction?

Not sure I do either, but think the Heiji being more convexed caused more wedging when chopping. I think this worked in it's favor push cutting. In the end, both knives had great geometry but I don't think I've found anything yet that could chop as cleanly as the Shig with a stock grind nor have I found anything that push cut as cleanly as the Heiji stock grind.

Understand that I know basically nothing and this is only based on my memory--which I think I lost sometime a long time ago. In other words an educated guess at the reasoning but personal fact for me on the actual cutting results.

Kato is it's own beast and therefore not included here...:biggrin:

panda
07-23-2013, 01:05 AM
where does the singatirin fit in? and have you took it to the stones yet? that thing must be a major pain to sharpen, let alone thin.

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 01:05 AM
Heijis are slightly concave, from the edge to the end of the secondary bevel, so they don't wedge unless you are cutting something very hard that is taller than the secondary bevel. My Shig experience is similar (though I don't believe they are concave, they are quite thin until about half way up the blade face).

panda
07-23-2013, 01:11 AM
concave grind, how the hell do you maintain that???

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 01:13 AM
concave grind, how the hell do you maintain that???

Tinh and I, and we've talked about this a good bit, have come to the conclusion that you don't. Takedas are the same way, for instance, but the secondary bevel is smaller so it's less noticeable. One can come close by changing the angle on the Heijis many times, so that you are thinning the last quarter inch with the blade completely horizontal, and I have my well-used 240 semi cutting close to the new one, this way. I always figured that Heiji used a wheel to grind it (you can feel the concavity with your fingers, it's not something that is imagined), but a recent email with Jon more than suggests that Heiji isn't using wheels, so perhaps they do it the hard way?

panda
07-23-2013, 01:18 AM
so not for faint of heart, that's a lot of work to consider!

chinacats
07-23-2013, 01:18 AM
Heijis are slightly concave, from the edge to the end of the secondary bevel, so they don't wedge unless you are cutting something very hard that is taller than the secondary bevel. My Shig experience is similar (though I don't believe they are concave, they are quite thin until about half way up the blade face).

OK, that makes sense...concave at the base and then the big convex bevel right? I do cut quite a bit of large hard items--especially big onions and squash and these were definitely the items that I remember as wedging. My Shig was thin most of the way up the blade face--perhaps even more than 1/2. It was also thinner at the spine than other Shig's in general. Again, for chopping it was the closest I've seen to perfect. Sorry to derail, but thanks for the explanation ER, helps a lot.

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 01:23 AM
No, it feels pretty concave up until the "shinogi," but who knows? my wife can tell you that my fingers aren't necessarily the best things to "measure" delicate items: :-\ (I'm a conservatory trained clarinetist, and feeling slightly different things is very important to wind instruments, so I think I'm right).

A knife thin at the spine is going to cut things like hard squash better than knives thick at the spine, regardless of over all grind. that's just physics.

chinacats
07-23-2013, 01:31 AM
I believe you, but can't quite see it--my eyes aren't much better than my memory...I still see a fairly large bit of convexity though some may just call it a shoulder. I do think I see the concave bit near the edge though...

Heiji:
http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r585/knifedude/P6100455_zpscdd86e29.jpg

Shig:
http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r585/knifedude/shigchoil_zpsa44b6127.jpg

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 01:34 AM
Those both have significant concavity, or at least they aren't convex. Trace straight lines from the flats to the edge, at the point they diverge from the flat. I'm convinced that Americans (and I was born in Tenn. and raised in Florida) don't know what concavity and convexity are.

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 01:39 AM
Which of Gator's knife profiles looks like the ones posted? Hint: it ain't the convex one.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/SeekHer/5d554029.jpg

panda
07-23-2013, 01:41 AM
yup definitely concave.

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 01:43 AM
I have a 240mm semi-stainless Heiji cutting about as well as a stock one. I have to take the absolute edge thickness way thinner, to make up for the grind difference. It's a real pain, especially since I'm getting arthritis in my right thumb. Worth it, though.

panda
07-23-2013, 01:46 AM
have you tried easing the shoulder? wonder how that would effect performance.

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 01:47 AM
Easing the shoulders on Heijis typically increases stickage, which negates increased cutting ability.

panda
07-23-2013, 01:56 AM
and is that the case with most other knives that have a shoulder about half way down the blade? i never tried doing that for fear of that exact reason. i like blades that push foods away vs gliding through. for example tanaka blue is the thinnest blade i have behind the edge but i don't care for it as it's a glider.

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 01:58 AM
The ones I've tried, yes. Heiji, Yoshihiro, Tanaka, etc.

keithsaltydog
07-23-2013, 02:26 AM
In any case it is a superb geometry,it is very slight near the edge.I think some makers make the area just above the edge thinner making the knives easy to sharpen on whetstones.I think Jon is right that is not done on a wheel.

Americans do know concave thats for sure.Some makers take the easy way of blade thinning by grinding a concave bevel on both sides with a grinding wheel. Cutco knives does this,you get a thin edge,but the overall geometry from from spine to edge does not cut anywhere close to a fine Japanese blade.Even Ming's Areo knife has a concave grind.

Most American & European production blades are thick behind the edge.Some makers have tried a more Japan style Gyuto simply because they work better.I have used German & Forschner blades in production kitchens.I will take a Japan blade anyday.

EdipisReks
07-23-2013, 02:35 AM
Try sharpening a Heiji or Takeda and not taking concavity into account: it'll suck. Cutco these knives are not.

jai
07-23-2013, 04:58 PM
i know my kono hd is a laser but it has very good food release i mirror polished it which helps a bit imo.

Benuser
07-23-2013, 05:48 PM
Try sharpening a Heiji or Takeda and not taking concavity into account: it'll suck.
How do you deal with that concavity?

keithsaltydog
07-23-2013, 06:10 PM
How do you deal with that concavity?

I was wondering that as well,I have sharpened a Takeda & a couple Carters.I would love to get my hands on a Heiji only have seen pictures of it.

Pensacola Tiger
07-23-2013, 07:11 PM
Sorry should have clarified, falling through food without much sticktion (sp?) and minimal steering. I haven't handled many knives, but hear people talking constantly about messed up grinds which diminishes performance.

Of the OOTB production knives I've used, the Suisin Inox honyaki, the Tadatsuna, the Sakai Yusuke and the Gesshin Ginga were the best at "falling through food". All of them had moderate "stiction", which is the tradeoff you make. All of them have thin blades, and are in the "laser" or "laser-like" category.

You mentioned "messed up grinds", and this is usually seen in thin knives that are not thin "behind the edge" so that it takes a lot of force to cut food like carrots. These knives need anywhere from minor to major tweaks to be good cutters. Some that I have used are the Richmond Artifex and Addict, the Hiromoto AS, the Bu-Rei-Zen (Blazen), the Fujiwara FKH and the Hattori HD.

Knives by Murray Carter would fall into the first category, but I don't consider them "production" knives.

Hope this may answer your question.

Rick

ar11
07-23-2013, 10:32 PM
Of the OOTB production knives I've used, the Suisin Inox honyaki, the Tadatsuna, the Sakai Yusuke and the Gesshin Ginga were the best at "falling through food". All of them had moderate "stiction", which is the tradeoff you make. All of them have thin blades, and are in the "laser" or "laser-like" category.

You mentioned "messed up grinds", and this is usually seen in thin knives that are not thin "behind the edge" so that it takes a lot of force to cut food like carrots. These knives need anywhere from minor to major tweaks to be good cutters. Some that I have used are the Richmond Artifex and Addict, the Hiromoto AS, the Bu-Rei-Zen (Blazen), the Fujiwara FKH and the Hattori HD.

Knives by Murray Carter would fall into the first category, but I don't consider them "production" knives.

Hope this may answer your question.

Rick

Thanks Rick that's what I was looking to know. I'm just getting started and trying to experience what's the best of production knives (ie not knives you have to get on a waiting list to order). Actually good to know what knives are subpar performers not to waste money on those.

Pensacola Tiger
07-23-2013, 10:49 PM
Thanks Rick that's what I was looking to know. I'm just getting started and trying to experience what's the best of production knives (ie not knives you have to get on a waiting list to order). Actually good to know what knives are subpar performers not to waste money on those.

One of the great benefits of KKF is a pretty good passaround system, where you can try out a knife for the price of postage and insurance. Keep your eyes open for a passaround you might be interested in. The more exposure you get to various knives the better, and it beats buying them.

EdipisReks
07-25-2013, 12:02 AM
How do you deal with that concavity?

You grind as flat as you can. You'll end up using multiple angles.

tomsch
07-25-2013, 11:27 AM
My Gesshin Ginga 240mm grind was beautiful out of the box. Not overly sharp but it still slices very well because of that very nice thin grind. It's probably time to take it to my stones for a quick touch-up since it has been my go-to knife that sees daily use. Even last night it was used for dinner prep and finished up by cleanly slicing through a large watermelon like it was soft butter.

EdipisReks
07-25-2013, 04:17 PM
My Gesshin Ginga 240mm grind was beautiful out of the box. Not overly sharp but it still slices very well because of that very nice thin grind. It's probably time to take it to my stones for a quick touch-up since it has been my go-to knife that sees daily use. Even last night it was used for dinner prep and finished up by cleanly slicing through a large watermelon like it was soft butter.

I would just put a micro bevel on it, with a finishing stone, if it's not chipped. Keep that stock grind as long as possible.

schanop
07-25-2013, 06:12 PM
deleted :-)