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wjd1
07-25-2013, 09:09 AM
Just getting started in a home knife "setup"....I will be the only cook/user/eater...so light usage 2 to 3 times a week......looking to add a nakiri with wa handle.....I will be using a CC Model XV as my sharpening system (and I am aware of its limitations)...Budget is under $200.....because of CC limitations....dont want to "over buy" but would like a nice knife....carbon is OK....I like the wider profile of the Masakage's.

I know I'm not going to get a "screaming sharp" edge with a CC....so what carbon steel is best...given these demands? What brands would you recommend?

Thanks for the guidance!

Brad Gibson
07-25-2013, 09:16 AM
I just got my hands on a shigefusa KU Nikiri and I love it. It cost just under 200 as well. I also tried the gesshin uraku Nikiri and it was quite the performer in a stainless clad that was a steal with saya for 125 bucks from JKI. Good luck with your search!

tripleq
07-25-2013, 09:26 AM
If you look at offerings from JKI you can take a look at Zakuri as well. It is a great performer and feels nicely balanced. Zakuri makes workhorse knives that are a pleasure to pick up and really use. Worth a look.

Lefty
07-25-2013, 09:32 AM
I'm a big fan of nakiris, and this is likely because I use them at home (when I use one), for my wife and myself. One really great thing about a nakiri is that you can get a knife that performs unbelievably well for a very reasonable price, when compared to a gyuto or even a suji. The limitations of the blade shape can be made up with pairing it with a petty, or another knife with a tip for trimming, coring, etc. Of course, this adds up and you can easily get into beautiful gyuto territory for that price.

With that in mind, for a home cook, a medium sized Carter Funayuki will do everything you will likely need, and especially when cooking for one. A couple other very nice options would be Itinomonn (from Maxim), Yamawaku (if you can wait for eBay), Tanaka (metalmaster), or maybe a Carbonext, based on their reputation.

I'm currently using an Itinomonn gyuto at home, and a Harner at work. I must say, I'm very pleasantly surprised by the Itinomonn (everyone knows how great Harners are) and I think Maxim might get more requests for them as more people give them a chance. Put it this way: I already have my next one picked out....

Now, I hate to mention it, but why not try out a 1k stone like a King? They're cheap and very effective. You can even do light dry stropping to maintain your edge until you get comfortable with sharpening. Just a thought.

PS. Welcome!

Ruso
07-25-2013, 09:43 AM
If you like Masakage profile why don't you get one? I have Masakage Shimo Nakiri and I love it. The Fit and Finish is not the best but for the price is very decent. The main complaint I have is not rounded spine and choil. Nothing that little bit of sand paper can not fix :) It gets very sharp, it is very sharp OOTB. Looks nice and if you like the profile, why not to get it?

Masakage has few different lines, so you can choose what alloy and finish you want - Stainless VG10, Shiogami (white) #2 Carbon or Blue Super. If I am not mistaken all of their Nakiris run under $200 mark.

Justin0505
07-25-2013, 10:24 AM
I'm a big fan of nakiris, and this is likely because I use them at home (when I use one), for my wife and myself. One really great thing about a nakiri is that you can get a knife that performs unbelievably well for a very reasonable price, when compared to a gyuto or even a suji. The limitations of the blade shape can be made up with pairing it with a petty, or another knife with a tip for trimming, coring, etc. Of course, this adds up and you can easily get into beautiful gyuto territory for that price.

With that in mind, for a home cook, a medium sized Carter Funayuki will do everything you will likely need, and especially when cooking for one. A couple other very nice options would be Itinomonn (from Maxim), Yamawaku (if you can wait for eBay), Tanaka (metalmaster), or maybe a Carbonext, based on their reputation.

I'm currently using an Itinomonn gyuto at home, and a Harner at work. I must say, I'm very pleasantly surprised by the Itinomonn (everyone knows how great Harners are) and I think Maxim might get more requests for them as more people give them a chance. Put it this way: I already have my next one picked out....

Now, I hate to mention it, but why not try out a 1k stone like a King? They're cheap and very effective. You can even do light dry stropping to maintain your edge until you get comfortable with sharpening. Just a thought.

PS. Welcome!

+1

If you're really stuck on using that CC, then don't spent over $60 on a nakiri, because there's a very good chance that the CC will mangle it.
I don't want to sound too harsh or like a snob, but it's not a question of the CC having "limitations" its just flat-out the wrong tool for this application. Honestly, saying "I'm going to spend $200 on a nakiri and maintain it with a CC" is akin to saying "I'm going to go buy a Ducati and maintain it myself using the crowbar, sledge, and hedge trimmer I have out in my shed."
Sharpeners like that are not designed to work with knives as thin or edges as acute as you'll find on j-knives. It's also going to be very difficult to maintain the nice flat edge profile / grind evenly without putting divots or waves in the edge and/or burning the steel/ ruining the temper.
Even if you manage to sharpen it without totally wrecking it, the performance will degrade very quickly for a few compounding reasons:
1) the edge that machines like the CC created are hollow ground and inherently weaker / shorter lasting than those made the correct way by hand
2) because of #1, and the fact that you have no way of stopping / maintaining the edge in between sharpening , you will need to sharpen more often
3) machines like the CC remove too much steel with each sharpening session
4) because of points 1-3 you will wear your knife much faster and as the edge travels up the blade, you will have no way of thinning the steel behind the edge, so with each sharpening the performance will degrade until you eventually reach the point where the edge is sharp, but the area behind it is so thick, it will feel like you're trying to to cut with a bushcraft knife.

So, please, just get a frickin stone and learn to do things the right way.
If you have the motor skills to use a CC without damaging your knives, then you can learn to use a stone.
It's really not that intimidating, and an inexpensive nakiri is, IMO one of the easiest knives to learn on.
You will get really good results really quickly, and you'll feel like a hero. Check out Murray Carter and JKI Jon on youtube or buy Dave Martell's DVD and then then develop a style / motion that work for you.
Get a Nakiri in white #2 and 1 or 2 stones. Spend less than <$100 on the nakiri and a little >$100 on stone(s).
A cheap knife is less intimidating to experiment on, and the soft iron cladding and simple carbon steel core is much easier to sharpen than something really fancy.
If down the road you want to upgrade (and no matter how good your first knife is, you'll always want more) you can sell your first one (but no one ever does) and you'll have a better idea of what you want in a knife when you're spending more money.

1000-1200grit is a versatile range if you get just one stone, but something like an 800 and 4000-5000grit is more fun and will give you a lot more options/ make your sharpening life easier.
There are plenty of newbie sharpening threads on here, just do some reading... .or take the lazy approach and toss up another thread and the stone geeks will be all over it.

bkdc
07-25-2013, 11:44 AM
My rec for a under 200 dollar nakiri is the Konosuke HD.

But I agree. If you choose to use the Chef's Choice sharpener, there is no point in buying a nice nakiri. You need to learn how to sharpen with whetstones. But a cheap nakiri and a few whetstones.

Mucho Bocho
07-25-2013, 01:00 PM
Justin, Such sage advise. Hopefully one will heed your words cause they will sure alleviate lots of frustration and wasted $.


+1

If you're really stuck on using that CC, then don't spent over $60 on a nakiri, because there's a very good chance that the CC will mangle it.
I don't want to sound too harsh or like a snob, but it's not a question of the CC having "limitations" its just flat-out the wrong tool for this application. Honestly, saying "I'm going to spend $200 on a nakiri and maintain it with a CC" is akin to saying "I'm going to go buy a Ducati and maintain it myself using the crowbar, sledge, and hedge trimmer I have out in my shed."
Sharpeners like that are not designed to work with knives as thin or edges as acute as you'll find on j-knives. It's also going to be very difficult to maintain the nice flat edge profile / grind evenly without putting divots or waves in the edge and/or burning the steel/ ruining the temper.
Even if you manage to sharpen it without totally wrecking it, the performance will degrade very quickly for a few compounding reasons:
1) the edge that machines like the CC created are hollow ground and inherently weaker / shorter lasting than those made the correct way by hand
2) because of #1, and the fact that you have no way of stopping / maintaining the edge in between sharpening , you will need to sharpen more often
3) machines like the CC remove too much steel with each sharpening session
4) because of points 1-3 you will wear your knife much faster and as the edge travels up the blade, you will have no way of thinning the steel behind the edge, so with each sharpening the performance will degrade until you eventually reach the point where the edge is sharp, but the area behind it is so thick, it will feel like you're trying to to cut with a bushcraft knife.

So, please, just get a frickin stone and learn to do things the right way.
If you have the motor skills to use a CC without damaging your knives, then you can learn to use a stone.
It's really not that intimidating, and an inexpensive nakiri is, IMO one of the easiest knives to learn on.
You will get really good results really quickly, and you'll feel like a hero. Check out Murray Carter and JKI Jon on youtube or buy Dave Martell's DVD and then then develop a style / motion that work for you.
Get a Nakiri in white #2 and 1 or 2 stones. Spend less than <$100 on the nakiri and a little >$100 on stone(s).
A cheap knife is less intimidating to experiment on, and the soft iron cladding and simple carbon steel core is much easier to sharpen than something really fancy.
If down the road you want to upgrade (and no matter how good your first knife is, you'll always want more) you can sell your first one (but no one ever does) and you'll have a better idea of what you want in a knife when you're spending more money.

1000-1200grit is a versatile range if you get just one stone, but something like an 800 and 4000-5000grit is more fun and will give you a lot more options/ make your sharpening life easier.
There are plenty of newbie sharpening threads on here, just do some reading... .or take the lazy approach and toss up another thread and the stone geeks will be all over it.

wjd1
07-25-2013, 01:16 PM
+1

If you're really stuck on using that CC, then don't spent over $60 on a nakiri, because there's a very good chance that the CC will mangle it.
I don't want to sound too harsh or like a snob, but it's not a question of the CC having "limitations" its just flat-out the wrong tool for this application. Honestly, saying "I'm going to spend $200 on a nakiri and maintain it with a CC" is akin to saying "I'm going to go buy a Ducati and maintain it myself using the crowbar, sledge, and hedge trimmer I have out in my shed."


I appreciate the feedback and advice....from what I've read the CC is not as bad as you describe it....I know it is not as good as stones or an EP.....BUT I really dont want to "go down that road"....If its an appropiate analogy....I buy preground coffee...not Maxwell House either....so I dont mind spending a little extra....But coffee "folk" probably frown on someone not grinding there own beans...I dont have time to or care to....but do know its probably better.....so back to knives....

I wasn't going to "drop" $200...that was my limit.....just want a good value with better F&F.....after some more research im leaning towards a Gesshin Uraka......

Again I appreciate the feedback.....just alittle frustrated that "everyone" thinks everyone should hand sharpen or they should just go to WalMart and buy a Farberware set and be happy....there has to be a middle ground........and for me a CC with good value knives seems to be an OK place to be....

Mucho Bocho
07-25-2013, 01:44 PM
Wj, You're right. Absolutely by all means buy a decent knife and use the CC with it. When you do please take before and after pics so that others can learn from your approach. If you could, take some real close shots of the primary bevel too so we can see all the changes the CC is going to make.

echerub
07-25-2013, 01:49 PM
You might be surprised to hear that an economical knife with a stone or two is considered middle-ground around here :)

The advice is sound though - you will eventually end up with a poor-performing knife as you continue refreshing the edge on something like the Chef's Choice.

Another alternative would be to get yourself a leather/balsa/whatever strop and then mail in the knife to your nearest *good* sharpener (there are a few whom folks can suggest) every year or so.

Noodle Soup
07-25-2013, 01:52 PM
I've had a chance to use every ChefsChoice model ever made over the years. If you stay off that first stage as much as possible and only use the 2nd and 3rd, you won't remove that much metal. Any sharpening device is going to remove some and many beginner sharpeners need to do more thinning, not less. Several of the more recent CC models have edge stropping wheels for the last stage that work well for quick touch ups. I would particularly recommend the Asian knife sharpening model for a nakiri.

I do most of my sharpening by hand but I have a small fortune in stones I have accumulated over the years. For the average hone cook a CC is a major improvement over the dull knives they normally work with.

Justin0505
07-25-2013, 02:41 PM
I appreciate the feedback and advice....from what I've read the CC is not as bad as you describe it....I know it is not as good as stones or an EP.....BUT I really dont want to "go down that road"....If its an appropiate analogy....I buy preground coffee...not Maxwell House either....so I dont mind spending a little extra....But coffee "folk" probably frown on someone not grinding there own beans...I dont have time to or care to....but do know its probably better.....so back to knives....

I wasn't going to "drop" $200...that was my limit.....just want a good value with better F&F.....after some more research im leaning towards a Gesshin Uraka......

Again I appreciate the feedback.....just alittle frustrated that "everyone" thinks everyone should hand sharpen or they should just go to WalMart and buy a Farberware set and be happy....there has to be a middle ground........and for me a CC with good value knives seems to be an OK place to be....


Some people are perfectly happy doing things the wrong way.
That's fine if you are happy with the results and dont want to change, it doest make your method correct or an equal alternative to doing things the right way.

You coffee analogy doest hold up.
These nothing wrong with putting pre-ground coffee in a coffee maker. It wont damage the coffee or the coffee maker. Can you get or make better tasting coffee? Sure, but youre not an idiot or doing anything wrong if you dont. - This is coming from a coffee snob.

What you're doing with the cc is using a poor tool for the wrong job. And it will result in either a damged or less functional knife. That's just plain ol' nonjudgmental fact... Thats not snobbery or me telling you to go back to the faberware isle or bb&b cutlery section.

End of the day Im happy when people buy/support good knives vs crap. So go by a sweet little riveted handle Carter and grind away with your cc... Help him put food on table and fuel in the choppa.

Ruso
07-25-2013, 04:05 PM
Wrong way? Are you type of the person - "My way or the highway"?
The point of sharpening is to make the knife more sharp then it was before. If you take a dull knife and put it to the CC, will it achieve it? Yea. Will it ruin it temper, my guess is not (I never used one). So how come it's a wrong way? It achieves the ultimate goal without damaging the product.

It might be not the optimal way, the knife wont get as sharp, polished, pretty or have the even finish as on the stone perhaps. But really is the knife more sharp then before?

The wrong way would trying to sharpen a knife by cutting the concrete for example.

Noodle Soup
07-25-2013, 04:46 PM
Thank you Ruso. :) And if you have watched Murray Carter's sharpening videos you have seen him sharpen a knife to a very good edge on a concrete cinder block! In Africa I watched a skinner pick up a rough, totally jagged grapefruit size rock off the ground, pull his Okapi pocket knife straight up down across it a few times and proceed to remove the hide from an antelope far better than I ever could with the finest Japanese waterstone sharpened blade.

I don't use my CC's that much but I still have several of them around here I find handy for certain uses. During hunting season I always touch up all my meat cutting knives on one before going to work. And I use a diamond surfaced steel while I'm cutting . :)

echerub
07-25-2013, 04:49 PM
I think the main concern here is not about the edge itself. It's about the rest of the knife behind ("above") the edge. You can have a really sharp edge and yet have a knife that doesn't work well for you in the kitchen for slicing, dicing, etc.

Take an extreme example: an axe that you'd use for chopping wood. You can sharpen it really well and have a real keen edge on it - in fact, I'll wager it'll work better for you that way :) - but it'd still suck for general kitchen tasks. It's because the rest of the stuff behind the edge is too thick. It's part of what is referred to as a blade's geometry.

Over time with a set-angle device you'll get an edge geometry that more and more resembles that of an axe. Not as extreme, but you will get thicker and thicker metal behind the edge. So you will have a sharp edge and yet will notice the knife doesn't feel and perform as it used to.

That takes time to happen, of course. If you're okay with that, then it's no issue - just get a new knife at that time or have someone re-work it for you. Probably more cost effective to do the former though.

EdipisReks
07-25-2013, 04:53 PM
Just getting started in a home knife "setup"....I will be the only cook/user/eater...so light usage 2 to 3 times a week......looking to add a nakiri with wa handle.....I will be using a CC Model XV as my sharpening system (and I am aware of its limitations)...Budget is under $200.....because of CC limitations....dont want to "over buy" but would like a nice knife....carbon is OK....I like the wider profile of the Masakage's.

I know I'm not going to get a "screaming sharp" edge with a CC....so what carbon steel is best...given these demands? What brands would you recommend?

Thanks for the guidance!

A Dojo 165mm nakiri and a this (http://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-SteeleX-D1130-Japanese-Waterstone/dp/B0000DD2C9) combo stone iis what I would get. Maybe a stone holder, too, but a damp cloth and a loaf pan works as well, Salty Dog style. The Dojo is damn nice for the price.

tripleq
07-25-2013, 04:55 PM
Wrong way? Are you type of the person - "My way or the highway"?
The point of sharpening is to make the knife more sharp then it was before. If you take a dull knife and put it to the CC, will it achieve it? Yea. Will it ruin it temper, my guess is not (I never used one). So how come it's a wrong way? It achieves the ultimate goal without damaging the product.

It might be not the optimal way, the knife wont get as sharp, polished, pretty or have the even finish as on the stone perhaps. But really is the knife more sharp then before?

The wrong way would trying to sharpen a knife by cutting the concrete for example.

If just making the knife sharper than before is the goal I agree but you have to keep in mind that it is possible to do the right thing the wrong way. A professional sharpener should and would approach a particular job to get the sharpest edge within the function and design of what is being sharpened. This is to say that he or she will sharpen in a way that respects the overall design and maximize the functionality and lifespan of the knife. It doesn't have to be my way or the highway but as I said before it is possible to get the knife sharper the wrong way and in doing so one can indeed render the knife less useful than it should be. What is the advantage of that? By your own admission the CC is not the optimal way. This being the case why wouldn't one proceed with a more optimal approach if it didn't ultimately cost more and there was something to be learned or otherwise gained from it? Again, I don't disagree with you within the context of your ultimate goal but in sharpening I believe the ultimate goal should be something greater than just getting it sharper. What if there was a device that would could stick your knife in and it came out with the sharpest possible edge that lasted one cut. How useful would that be? As for sharpening with concrete you'll have to direct that question to Murray Carter.

EdipisReks
07-25-2013, 04:59 PM
Wrong way? Are you type of the person - "My way or the highway"?
The point of sharpening is to make the knife more sharp then it was before. If you take a dull knife and put it to the CC, will it achieve it? Yea. Will it ruin it temper, my guess is not (I never used one). So how come it's a wrong way? It achieves the ultimate goal without damaging the product.

It might be not the optimal way, the knife wont get as sharp, polished, pretty or have the even finish as on the stone perhaps. But really is the knife more sharp then before?

The wrong way would trying to sharpen a knife by cutting the concrete for example.

I've seen quite few knives sharpened on a CC. They are sharper than dull, but uniformly were messed up, with wonky geometry and holes in the edge.

Justin0505
07-25-2013, 05:09 PM
Wrong way? Are you type of the person - "My way or the highway"?
The point of sharpening is to make the knife more sharp then it was before. If you take a dull knife and put it to the CC, will it achieve it? Yea. Will it ruin it temper, my guess is not (I never used one). So how come it's a wrong way? It achieves the ultimate goal without damaging the product.

It might be not the optimal way, the knife wont get as sharp, polished, pretty or have the even finish as on the stone perhaps. But really is the knife more sharp then before?

The wrong way would trying to sharpen a knife by cutting the concrete for example.

Are you the type of person that doesn't read my first post? I outlined it pretty clearly, but echerub explained it fully.
It's not "my way" is a THE way that's been around in one form or another since man started making sharp things out of steel.
I'm also not guessing about the CC: I try to have at least a clue as to what I'm talking about before I make sassy posts... but then again, that's just my way; your's is fine too.

I understand that "above the edge" is also above some heads...

mkriggen
07-25-2013, 05:12 PM
I appreciate the feedback and advice....from what I've read the CC is not as bad as you describe it....I know it is not as good as stones or an EP.....BUT I really dont want to "go down that road"....If its an appropiate analogy....I buy preground coffee...not Maxwell House either....so I dont mind spending a little extra....But coffee "folk" probably frown on someone not grinding there own beans...I dont have time to or care to....but do know its probably better.....so back to knives....

I wasn't going to "drop" $200...that was my limit.....just want a good value with better F&F.....after some more research im leaning towards a Gesshin Uraka......

Again I appreciate the feedback.....just alittle frustrated that "everyone" thinks everyone should hand sharpen or they should just go to WalMart and buy a Farberware set and be happy....there has to be a middle ground........and for me a CC with good value knives seems to be an OK place to be....

Ok dude, we're not trying to tell you how bad the CC sharpeners are, we're trying to tell you that NO electric sharpener is appropriate for use on a J-knife style blade. Because of the hardness and shallow edge angle of j-knives you just can't use an electric sharpener on them without damaging them. This doesn't mean your only other option is to get crap knives at wally world, it just means stay away from the really hard j-knives. Henckels and Wusthof both have several lines out now that don 't have finger guards and will last you a lifetime (and you can't beat their f&f).

Be well:peace:

edit: wow! bunch of stuff got posted while I was writing this, my be outdated.

Lefty
07-25-2013, 05:22 PM
I'm not saying a CC won't do, but a single stone is a great option to go along with your already existing system. Sorry I I started this bashing. Trust me, we're just trying to set you up with a fantastic combo. With that being said, I play tennis with an $80 racket, and fish with a $40 rod and reel. Trust me, I get it. Sometimes the "best of the best" truly is overkill.

bkdc
07-25-2013, 05:55 PM
A two-stone set-up would cost no more than his CC sharpener. But hey..... what can you say? Putting a nice knife through that sharpener feels like washing your car with a Scotch-Brite pad using the rough side. :)

Justin0505
07-25-2013, 06:10 PM
17344

bikehunter
07-25-2013, 06:25 PM
I find that I can never open these attachments. ???

tripleq
07-25-2013, 06:27 PM
I find that I can never open these attachments. ???

Same here.

mkriggen
07-25-2013, 07:24 PM
I find that I can never open these attachments. ???

I got nothing:dontknow:

Noodle Soup
07-25-2013, 07:26 PM
"The Way!" LOL Travel a little. People sharpen their knives differently every where you go in the world. All will tell you they know the "right way" and they manage to get the job done.

Lefty
07-25-2013, 07:28 PM
I recently took on a very cool project, and got some really nice results on mediums you'd never think would work. If he goes easy with the CC, it'll do the job acceptably well. I'd still suggest stropping, but hey....

wjd1
07-25-2013, 08:19 PM
Well.....I guess I won't buy a nakiri or a Chef's Choice......save about $275....and plan on taking my other 2 knives somewhere local for sharpening......that way they won't be ruined.......or when they get too dull....I could just buy new ones......that sounds like the "right thing to do''.....

bikehunter
07-25-2013, 08:42 PM
No the right thing to do is buy a relatively inexpensive nakiri 75 bucks or less), spend 30 bucks on a King 1000 sharpening stone and be happy. If you're not happy, you can get back 75% of your money in the BST forum..... Or you can throw up your hands and say screw it. If I can't sharpen my knife in 30 seconds with a machine that should have an electric can opener attached....with Zero effort on my part....I ain't gonna spend any time at all doing it right. Have fun. ;-)

EdipisReks
07-25-2013, 08:45 PM
Well.....I guess I won't buy a nakiri or a Chef's Choice......save about $275....and plan on taking my other 2 knives somewhere local for sharpening......that way they won't be ruined.......or when they get too dull....I could just buy new ones......that sounds like the "right thing to do''.....

***

Crothcipt
07-25-2013, 11:15 PM
well I guess you will not experience what has been said. The disappointment of when your knife won't cut past a 1/4 inch down. Even after another couple passes on the machine. I think you are saving more than the 275.

bikehunter
07-25-2013, 11:23 PM
He wanted to hear what he wanted to hear. Shrug

chinacats
07-26-2013, 02:00 AM
^^^It is funny though...I wonder why some people bother asking when they seem to know the answer...4 pages wasted...:(

Mucho Bocho
07-26-2013, 10:05 AM
Forum members are too nice sometimes. I'm encouraging the CC on J-knives experiment. That way we could document a very quick and efficent way to ruin J-knives.

keithsaltydog
07-26-2013, 11:01 AM
Pull through devices are as common as fleas.I'd never put a J-Blade on one of those things.If you want a good knife a little freehand skill goes a long way.It is not that hard to learn-- some motor skills & hand eye cordination.Carter says it best,by using devices you are putting the respondsibiliy for your edge on the device instead of your own skills.

Actually if you take the time to learn a little skill you save money from wasting it on crap that does not work that well or depending on someone else to sharpen your knives.

Plus there is satisfaction gained from mastering things.It is Human nature,well some Humans anyway.:bliss:

mkriggen
07-26-2013, 01:22 PM
Forum members are too nice sometimes...:laughat:

Justin0505
07-26-2013, 07:37 PM
I find that I can never open these attachments. ???

the attachments that uploaded from computer are the ones that always seem to fail.
Linked from the web with not local copy seems to work best.

The thread is pretty much dead now as it became clear that the OP didn't really want any advice that wasn't in accordance of his assumptions / what he wanted to hear, but here's a little preview of the next thread that we'll likely see after he spends some quality time with the new nakiri and cc:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Ldu24q6allM/UfMBfG_1f4I/AAAAAAAAMtg/U15WNKPkDPk/s1255/why%2520no.jpg

and the profile looks something like this:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61LNwlUszVL._SL1500_.jpg

bikehunter
07-26-2013, 09:44 PM
Huh....I haven't seen a good pic of the Shun Ice Cream Sandwich knife before. Thx.

Noodle Soup
07-26-2013, 11:28 PM
But just how many years will it take to reach stage four? I have a Dexter 12-inch steaking knife I run through a ChefChoice every fall before butchering my deer. In a really good season I may butcher 4 or 5, an average year a couple. Once the edge is touched up on the ChefsChoice, it is steeled on a EZE-LAP diamond rod as I work. The knife has been in use for maybe 25-30 years now and it might have as much wear as stage 2 on your drawing. Of course, the drawing is a complete exaggeration the wear pattern. from the machine.

kungpao
07-27-2013, 12:59 AM
Forum members are too nice sometimes. I'm encouraging the CC on J-knives experiment. That way we could document a very quick and efficent way to ruin J-knives.

Amen.

Crothcipt
07-27-2013, 03:11 AM
But just how many years will it take to reach stage four? I have a Dexter 12-inch steaking knife I run through a ChefChoice every fall before butchering my deer. In a really good season I may butcher 4 or 5, an average year a couple. Once the edge is touched up on the ChefsChoice, it is steeled on a EZE-LAP diamond rod as I work. The knife has been in use for maybe 25-30 years now and it might have as much wear as stage 2 on your drawing. Of course, the drawing is a complete exaggeration the wear pattern. from the machine.

Noodle it would be worse wear with a nikiri, because of more chipping, harder steel, ect..

Justin0505
07-27-2013, 04:13 AM
But just how many years will it take to reach stage four? I have a Dexter 12-inch steaking knife I run through a ChefChoice every fall before butchering my deer. In a really good season I may butcher 4 or 5, an average year a couple. Once the edge is touched up on the ChefsChoice, it is steeled on a EZE-LAP diamond rod as I work. The knife has been in use for maybe 25-30 years now and it might have as much wear as stage 2 on your drawing. Of course, the drawing is a complete exaggeration the wear pattern. from the machine.

A soft butcher knife is much more appropriate for the CC. I've notices that a thicker blade / thicker bte works pretty well for raw meat. It seems like the thicker geometry the would wedge in hard veg helps separate the flesh and actually reduces drag. A nakiri is also far more dependent on even board contact than a butcher knife.

The degradation in performance would become noticeable (to anyone that isn't oblivious) pretty quickly. It all depends on the geometry of the that particular blade, but I've noticed a degradation in cutting feel in less than a half dozen hand sharpenings without thinning.
Given a good hand edge will last longer than a cc edge and that the cc removes more metal, I'd say one could easily see a very noticeable drop in performance within the first few months of buying a shiney new nakiri.

The drawing is obviously an exaggeration, but that's because fractions of a mm make a huge difference in reality.

Noodle Soup
07-27-2013, 10:21 AM
I guess I shouldn't get into an argument about using a ChefsChoice on a nakiri because I would never do that anyway. That said, I still think this "removes too much metal" thing is way over exaggerated assuming you stay off the first and second stages as much as possible. If you think you need to go through all three stages every time, then you many have problems but ChefsChoice will tell you that upfront. The third stage on most models (and like I said, I've used every model they have made) removes no more metal than a stone would. My real point is still that it is a good machine for the average person that has no desire to spend the time,or in the case of waterstones, money learning to hand sharpen. Maybe not ideal for hard Japanese blades but their Asian model will give them the proper angle.

Justin0505
07-27-2013, 04:20 PM
I guess I shouldn't get into an argument about using a ChefsChoice on a nakiri because I would never do that anyway. That said, I still think this "removes too much metal" thing is way over exaggerated assuming you stay off the first and second stages as much as possible. If you think you need to go through all three stages every time, then you many have problems but ChefsChoice will tell you that upfront. The third stage on most models (and like I said, I've used every model they have made) removes no more metal than a stone would. My real point is still that it is a good machine for the average person that has no desire to spend the time,or in the case of waterstones, money learning to hand sharpen. Maybe not ideal for hard Japanese blades but their Asian model will give them the proper angle.

I won't argue that a CC is "better than nothing" for crappy knives. When I saw a 3-stage model on super-close-out sale I actually picked one up for my mom in hopes that she would use it on her soft german-steeled knives in between times when I visit and give them all a propper sharpening.
Another scenario might be that the industrial models (that wont over heat and shut off like the home versions) are perhaps viable if you had a whole pro kitchen or butcher shop full of crappy knives that needed sharpened every day / multiple times a day.
However, I don't think that either scenario would apply to 99% of the folks on here.

However, the argument that anything other than the non-cutting "buffing" stage doesn't take more metal off than a hand stone is so wrong it's silly. Maybe early on in hand-sharpening one might tend to remove a little extra steel as it takes some time to get a feel for holding an angle and developing a consistent bur, but very quickly it get's pretty easy to feel the exact instant when you've reached that primary edge and it's time to switch sides. The manual process allows for a level of control and a conservation of edge steel that I just inherently impossible with something like a cc. I understand that you're happy with the money that you put into yours, but stop trying to argue the point that it's something that it isn't.

Noodle Soup
07-27-2013, 05:20 PM
Justin, I started to write a long reply to that last post but decided against it. You have found your true religion and I'm just a poor, unenlightened heathen. :surrendar: LOL

Justin0505
07-27-2013, 06:16 PM
Justin, I started to write a long reply to that last post but decided against it. You have found your true religion and I'm just a poor, unenlightened heathen. :surrendar: LOL

Quite the opposite. Religion is a matter of faith and seeking explanation / meaning for things which we cannot know or fully understand.

Knives and sharpening is very much a topic which is observable and understandable to those who care to observe with their senses and think with their brains.

If you had a well constructed argument as to why someone on this forum should go spend between $100 - $600 on CC or similar machine, I'd be genuinely interested in reading it.

Noodle Soup
07-27-2013, 06:30 PM
What ever Justin. I bow to your superior knowledge of everything sharp.

Justin0505
07-27-2013, 06:59 PM
What ever Justin. I bow to your superior knowledge of everything sharp.

I guess that means "no I don't have anything intelligent to say, so I'll say something sarcastic and defensive instead."

Lefty
07-27-2013, 07:09 PM
Maybe we should call a ceasefire. This isn't really getting anything accomplished.

Noodle Soup
07-27-2013, 08:16 PM
:surrendar: LOL

bikehunter
07-27-2013, 08:32 PM
For some folks simple victory is not enough.

wjd1
07-27-2013, 09:46 PM
If you had a well constructed argument as to why someone on this forum should go spend between $100 - $600 on CC or similar machine, I'd be genuinely interested in reading it.

I'd venture around 80% of the population who own knives either do not sharpen them ever, use a hand held pull thru device, or use the steel as if they are fencing to "sharpen" there knives.I also speculate fewer than 5% fall into the knife aficionado category like yourself and many "on this forum". The other 15% or so fall somewhere in the middle....like your Mom....and me ...and many others.....some want and enjoy sharpening by hand...others dont....but want to do more than the first category...It does not make a CC wrong.....is it as good as stones...HECK NO.....never said that....never would. But for some it may be the "best" they are willing to do.....and Edgecraft seems like a pretty successful company. And I see many professional sharpeners listed here on the forum...many well respected and successful.....so I wonder why if "everyone" should do it themselves, are they still in business...I think because alot of people dont care to do it themselves....My point is...everyone is different and has different motivations.....I concede you are MORE right....but that does not make someone else of a different opinion wrong.

I came to ask a Kitchen Knife question on THE KITCHEN KNIFE FORUM.....I was trying to get opinions/education based on MY criteria......what I ( and we) got from several....not all...... was a sophomoric, condescending, elitist, and intolerant one-sided discussion.

Crothcipt
07-27-2013, 10:21 PM
This reminds me of the guy at work and his stance on how the dinosaurs were never real, and people put the bones in the ground. After a while you let him go thinking he has a point.

Seb
07-27-2013, 10:31 PM
The pull-through water-wheel thingie from Global works too if you are prepared to accept a lower standard.

pkjames
07-28-2013, 12:43 AM
probably less than 1% population use proper J. nakiri though.

Justin0505
07-28-2013, 12:58 AM
This reminds me of the guy at work and his stance on how the dinosaurs were never real, and people put the bones in the ground. After a while you let him go thinking he has a point.

lol, related to this guy perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7XXVLKWd3Q

I guess if that general can get his head around being asked those questions from a sitting US senator, then it shouldn't blow my mind so much that this is even a discussion on KKF.

Seb
07-28-2013, 01:10 AM
Well there is that museum in Kentucky that proves his point.

keithsaltydog
07-28-2013, 04:08 AM
Dinosaurs are not here because they were to big to fit on the Boat two by two:spin chair:

Justin0505
07-28-2013, 04:21 AM
no, they all got on one side of dino island and it capsized

Seb
07-28-2013, 06:12 AM
Lookit, I can't help feeling sorry for the OP so my $0.02 is to get a Fujiwara FKV nakiri from JCK - it is a very decent knife (I have one) with good but not super-skinny thinness and is tough enough to withstand the CC treatment.