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Dave Martell
05-27-2011, 10:28 AM
I wonder how long will this go on - how many more people I'll have to disappoint with the news that their knife is no good? How long will these knives continue to be sold here?

As you might be able to guess I just got another bad one in where I had to tell another customer that I can't work on his knife. Another $150 down the crapper for the customer.....another $150 in the bank for the vendor.

Lefty
05-27-2011, 10:32 AM
I'm not saying this to cause any trouble, but perhaps we can write a polite letter on behalf of ALL OF US, to Akiko to express our concerns. I was close to getting a knife made a while back, and Akiko was great to deal with.
Is there a chance that the problem areas are going unnoticed? I really don't think Moritaka is trying to rip anyone off.

WildBoar
05-27-2011, 10:33 AM
Hopefully they have some recourse with the vendor. It's good of you to be brutally honest with the customer like that vs trying unsuccessfully to fix/ tune, which would result in their inability to return the knife.

Lefty
05-27-2011, 10:36 AM
Dave, could you take a 210 Moritaka gyuto with this issue and bring the entire edge towards the spine, turning it into a suji-esque knife?
I realize that would be a pain, but I'm just wondering if they are at all salvageable. Better to have a $150 Moritaka suji, than a $150 cheese knife.

mikemac
05-27-2011, 11:46 AM
I think it depends on how much core steel is inserted in the cladding...there is a picture of the process on Moritaka's web site, and while I'm sure it varies, every time I've see that process (others do it to, nothing wrong with it) it looks like the core is about 1/4th the size od the cladding (i.e. 1/2" piece of core inserted into 2" piece opf cladding)

Cadillac J
05-27-2011, 11:48 AM
Dave, from what I always interpreted from your 'hole in the edge' explanation was that the problem seemed to be fixable if you had the time/patience to grind enough off to get 'past' the over-grind.

Is this a false assumption?

Lefty
05-27-2011, 11:51 AM
Great point, Mike!
You would definitely run into a core steel issue with my potential "solution".
It would likely be a case by case...case(?)

mikemac
05-27-2011, 12:03 PM
Oh yeah...just not sure how much...if the spine to edge is 50mm, does core steel extend up from the edge 10mm?, 20mm? who knows. I think you could sand the choil, and then force a quick patina to see if you identify core (I'm really guessing)...but the real point is somebody bought a $150 knife and immediately faces a $50 - $100 or ?? repair job to have a chunk of their knife ground down.

For those of you new to the world of knife knuts...this is an old issue, so apparently the maker chooses to deny or ignore the flaw, and it is a flaw that even experienced knife knuts cannot usually detect.

Lefty
05-27-2011, 12:07 PM
I would imagine so, but has anyone written Akiko and the crew to mention the issue?

Dave Martell
05-27-2011, 12:49 PM
On this knife I have here now the edge is wavy along it's length which is a problem more with sloppy work but this is fixable, the real problem lies in just above the edge where (both sides) have deep grinds into the bevels. It's real tricky on this knife because it's almost OK for one touch up sharpening job but I'd guarantee that after this any and all subsequent sharpening work will expose the hole more and more. The heal is low hanging but isn't at all the issue, it's the grinds on the bevels on the side of the knife.

FWIW, going to Moritaka and/or their US vendors will do no good, I've been there and done that.

Hey maybe I should ask for folks to send me every Moritaka that's ever been sold in the US so that I can inspect them all and then gather all of the defective ones together and then ask the vendor for a return? Maybe then they'll listen?

stevenStefano
05-27-2011, 01:09 PM
Any chance you could show a few pictures of what you mean Dave?

Dave Martell
05-27-2011, 01:13 PM
Any chance you could show a few pictures of what you mean Dave?


I've tried to capture this with my camera before but it's impossible to do. If you were standing next to me you could see it in an instant if shown.

JohnnyChance
05-27-2011, 01:17 PM
I have a CCK 1303 that is overground in one section. When new, almost the entire length of the blade made contact with the board, except for a little bit at the heel and tip. Now there is a good inch-plus in the middle of the edge that does not make contact with the board. I have only sharpened it a few times. You can't see it other than where it doesnt make contact with the board, but once you know it is there you can feel the overground section as well. But at least it was $35 and not $150.

Dave Martell
05-27-2011, 01:21 PM
I wish this didn't bother me so much and I didn't feel the need to make these posts, I'm just so sick of having to tell another person that I can't fix their new knife. Oh and to make matters worse I won't add to their problems so I won't charge to return ship it back to them. Imagine how much money I've lost in postal fees alone, if I told you how much I've lost in being burnt by working on these knives you'd shudder. I'm just tired of this whole thing with them.

mhlee
05-27-2011, 01:48 PM
I wish this didn't bother me so much and I didn't feel the need to make these posts, I'm just so sick of having to tell another person that I can't fix their new knife. Oh and to make matters worse I won't add to their problems so I won't charge to return ship it back to them. Imagine how much money I've lost in postal fees alone, if I told you how much I've lost in being burnt by working on these knives you'd shudder. I'm just tired of this whole thing with them.

I'm sure your customers REALLY appreciate you not charging return shipping, but over the course of time, that's a HUGE expense. (I know from receiving several packages from you and sending knives by mail.)

Perhaps you could return their knives by regular, non-priority mail, instead of shipping them back for free?

Mattias504
05-27-2011, 02:23 PM
You should just make it known that you won't deal with Moritaka anymore. Sounds like a money hole draining away....

bikehunter
05-27-2011, 02:40 PM
FWIW, going to Moritaka and/or their US vendors will do no good, I've been there and done that.



So...What does "will do no good" mean, exactly? Akiko just tells you to go piss up a rope, or what? A post like this on the forum will clearly have an affect on those who may have been considering a Moritaka. Seems to me more elaboration would be appropriate (maybe you've mentioned this in the past with more details and I missed it)

In the past couple years I've very nearly pulled the trigger on a Moritaka, several times...because of all the glowing praise I'd read. Clearly, I'm now glad I didn't. There has to be some reason for this drop in quality control. Too many orders to spend the time necessary for a quality knife? A major change in the shop...equipment, change of knife maker, short handed? When I was communicating with Moritaka regarding a knife, Akiko was easily the most helpful, and seemingly honest, person I tried to deal with, with regard to handmade Japanese knives. I've seen many posts on various forums, affirming that opinion. Seems like there must be some logical reason for the drop in quality, and it seems odd that you get no positive response from Moritaka. Shrug

Cadillac J
05-27-2011, 02:50 PM
You should just make it known that you won't deal with Moritaka anymore. Sounds like a money hole draining away....

I could of sworn you stopped accepting them for sharpening/fixes over a year ago...no?

bieniek
05-27-2011, 03:01 PM
So...A post like this clearly have an affect on those who may have been considering a Moritaka.

Oh yes they do have affect. I was just going to get one, when i read the last tread where Dave mentioned that "issue" and from then on I prefer to spend my money wiser.
But big respect to you Dave for bringing it up so sharply.
Cannot believe that maker of this reputation is doing that, and doing it continusly.

echerub
05-27-2011, 03:11 PM
Dave's mentioned this issue with Moritakas for quite some time now - and yeah, I could've sworn you weren't taking in Moritakas anymore, Dave...

rockbox
05-27-2011, 03:15 PM
On this knife I have here now the edge is wavy along it's length which is a problem more with sloppy work but this is fixable, the real problem lies in just above the edge where (both sides) have deep grinds into the bevels. It's real tricky on this knife because it's almost OK for one touch up sharpening job but I'd guarantee that after this any and all subsequent sharpening work will expose the hole more and more. The heal is low hanging but isn't at all the issue, it's the grinds on the bevels on the side of the knife.

FWIW, going to Moritaka and/or their US vendors will do no good, I've been there and done that.

Hey maybe I should ask for folks to send me every Moritaka that's ever been sold in the US so that I can inspect them all and then gather all of the defective ones together and then ask the vendor for a return? Maybe then they'll listen?

I don't think most customers really notice or care. Unfortunately, you only get the customers that do. Its kind like buying tools from harbor freight. They aren't that good, but they get the job done most of the time. Unfortunately you get the customer that sends you his harbor freight table saw expecting you to tune it up so it can perform like a Delta.

Dave Martell
05-27-2011, 04:12 PM
I could of sworn you stopped accepting them for sharpening/fixes over a year ago...no?


Yeah I did but started to take them again after seeing a few good ones. I still get some good ones too once in awhile but there's a lot more bad ones out there then good....unfortunately.

Dave Martell
05-27-2011, 04:15 PM
The problem here is that they're being sold at a price point that almost entry level - bang for buck type of thing. People coming into these knives see them as a good deal and snag them up but these are exactly the guys who lack the experience to see the problem hence the maker and seller get away with it.

BertMor
05-27-2011, 04:23 PM
Small solution, not for the knife but you. Why not tell people you will onle accept them on spec and that they need to pay for return postage in advance. This way they can choose if its worth it to them it to send you a knife without knowing in advance if you can actually fix/sharpen it.

echerub
05-27-2011, 04:30 PM
That sounds like a pretty fair way to do it.

mikemac
05-27-2011, 04:47 PM
So...What does "will do no good" mean, exactly? ..... There has to be some reason for this drop in quality control. ....be some logical reason for the drop in quality, and it seems odd that you get no positive response from Moritaka. Shrug

Will do no good means just that....they really just do not acknowledge there is a problem, and trying to discuss it , thru e mail, in two seperate languages has got to be insane, But you have to understand - there is no problem, except with you.

Also - there is no drop in quality control. This is the way it's been for 2 - 3 (??) years. Or more. Like I said, really smart people who are also knife knuts were unable to detect the defect. Dave pointed it out, and then there was an ah-ha moment. And then there was a war. The logical reason you don't get a positive response from Moritaka is simple. In there mind there is no problem.

There are two camps on this issue...Dave, who probably hand sharpens more knives in a month than most of us will ever read about, and who gives freely of his time, energy and knowlegde for the benefit of us knife knuts. And then there is the other camp, which believes that in the world of $3000 - $5000 Carters and Kramers, you can get a fully custom blade for $200. And if you travel to Japan, take pictures and write a glowing blog, you too can get your picture taken with a sword.

A 'vendor' is probably being 'assured' by Moritaka that all knives have been inspected and there is no problem with any of them. And then he looks at it before it gets mailed out , and sure enuf - looks like a knife - no problem.

Truth is, IMHO only, the blades are probably "OK' for what they are...the rustic offerings from a village bladesmith. Just like Takeda. Who doesn't seem to have the same level of QC issues.

(the above is based on my observing the Moritaka conversation go back and forth for several years, and FWIW - the moritaka familiy have always been very nice in their dealings...but there is no problem)

If you want to see Dave's head explode, watch this...Dave - there are no problems with the Moritaka blade - the family is over 700 years old, so no problems. OK!

Love you Dave!

sudsy9977
05-27-2011, 04:49 PM
mikemac......you mean i too can get my picture taken with a sword????????......ryan

shankster
05-27-2011, 07:07 PM
Dave,have you noticed this problem on both the Aogomi/blue super carbon steel and the Aogomi/ blue #2 carbon steel? Does the type of steel make any difference? I haven't noticed any decrease in performance with my Moritakas even after many trips to the stones and months of use and abuse at work.They still get scary sharp,IMHO,and keep a great edge.Should I let this "problem" bother me?

sudsy9977
05-27-2011, 07:11 PM
Dave,have you noticed this problem on both the Aogomi/blue super carbon steel and the Aogomi/ blue #2 carbon steel? Does the type of steel make any difference? I haven't noticed any decrease in performance with my Moritakas even after many trips to the stones and months of use and abuse at work.They still get scary sharp,IMHO,and keep a great edge.Should I let this "problem" bother me?




here lies the problem if u ask me.....would u be mad if you had a moritaka with an issue and u can't tell?....what if the problem is there and you can't spot it?.....ryan

Lefty
05-27-2011, 07:19 PM
Deep...

Dave Martell
05-27-2011, 07:20 PM
Yup that's about it Ryan.

Dave Martell
05-27-2011, 07:22 PM
shankster, yours might be good if you got them up in Canada, maybe that vendor gives crap and makes sure his knives are good.

shankster
05-27-2011, 07:26 PM
But if I can't tell there's a problem,if there is a problem, and my knife still performs the way I expect it to perform should I be pissed? Is the blade going to eventually disintegrate or lose it's cutting ability? Am I lucky I got some of the good ones?

shankster
05-27-2011, 07:28 PM
shankster, yours might be good if you got them up in Canada, maybe that vendor gives crap and makes sure his knives are good.

I hope so.Is it worth it to bring my knives back to my vendor and express my concerns and have him check them out?

NO ChoP!
05-27-2011, 08:00 PM
Well, after reading Daves last post, I thoroughly inspected my 300mm yanagi, and could find no serious defects, zero waviness; next time Salty's in, I'm going to ask him to inspect it as well.

I will say, I own a Takeda as well, and will stick my neck on the line to say that Moritaka AS steel is harder, rusts less, and gets just as sharp; all for half the price. The octagonal handle is nicer and larger than Takedas.

I too have sharpened my Moritaka about four times from the low stones and another dozen from the mid stones and up, and the edge is still as flat as when new....

I am going to say this; the notion that to own a Moritaka means you're a novice, and don't know any better is crap. Period. I notice every infinite imperfection in every knife I own, from Konosuke to Watanabe to my newest Masamoto (people say the F&F is questionable, I say the handle and choil grind are pure crap! [but I love the steel])....

And please don't be defensive of this, but I would be careful slandering a company, could be a sticky situation....

Dave Martell
05-27-2011, 08:15 PM
To be clear here - I'm not talking about wavy edges - I'm talking about low spots where a heavy handed knifemaker ground too deep in specific sections on the bevels of the sides of the blades....also let's include hammer marks at the edge found on forged knives like Moritaka.

sudsy9977
05-27-2011, 08:39 PM
I am going to say this; the notion that to own a Moritaka means you're a novice, and don't know any better is crap. Period. I notice every infinite imperfection in every knife I own, from Konosuke to Watanabe to my newest Masamoto (people say the F&F is questionable, I say the handle and choil grind are pure crap! [but I love the steel])....

And please don't be defensive of this, but I would be careful slandering a company, could be a sticky situation....





maybe some knife owners don't know what to inspect, look for, examine........and what's up with the slander comment?.....someone says there is an issue with a product and it's a problem?.....i hate pepsi compared to coke.....what if i said every pepsi i ever had was flat and tatsed like chemicals?.....what is pepsi gonna sue me?.....ryan

SpikeC
05-27-2011, 09:12 PM
If one wishes to be offended, one will find their wish.

rockbox
05-27-2011, 09:13 PM
And please don't be defensive of this, but I would be careful slandering a company, could be a sticky situation....

Slander is writing something that isn't true. People are writing what they have experienced with the Moritaka product.

Seb
05-27-2011, 10:11 PM
I just dashed into the kitchen and grabbed my Moritaka and held it up to the light at the window to check if I could see any uneveness along the blade road on either side - I also ran my finger along the bevel to see if I could feel anything... nothing.

Does that mean that mine is ok or am I missing something?

When I order mine from Akiko I stated clearly that I had head about the issues and that I wanted them to take care that my knife came with a completely kosher edge grind and she said 'Roger that' (basically).

mhenry
05-27-2011, 11:08 PM
Well, after reading Daves last post, I thoroughly inspected my 300mm yanagi, and could find no serious defects, zero waviness; next time Salty's in, I'm going to ask him to inspect it as well.

I will say, I own a Takeda as well, and will stick my neck on the line to say that Moritaka AS steel is harder, rusts less, and gets just as sharp; all for half the price. The octagonal handle is nicer and larger than Takedas.

I too have sharpened my Moritaka about four times from the low stones and another dozen from the mid stones and up, and the edge is still as flat as when new....

I am going to say this; the notion that to own a Moritaka means you're a novice, and don't know any better is crap. Period. I notice every infinite imperfection in every knife I own, from Konosuke to Watanabe to my newest Masamoto (people say the F&F is questionable, I say the handle and choil grind are pure crap! [but I love the steel])....

And please don't be defensive of this, but I would be careful slandering a company, could be a sticky situation....




647

+1 I love my Moritaka!!! Even before the mods. it was an awesome knife

Amon-Rukh
05-28-2011, 01:11 AM
I'm sure that there are plenty of good Moritakas out there--Dave's even said as much himself. That said, as a consumer I'm glad to know that there are potential problems so I can make the most informed decision possible before making a purchase.

ecchef
05-28-2011, 01:12 AM
I've had Dave kick back 2 Moritaka gyutos with varying degrees of the same issue; a 270 AS extra thin & a 210 damascus. And I appreciate him telling me exactly why and explaining what to look for.
That's a stand-up guy.
That said, I still use them regularly, and because in my experience the steel holds an edge so long that I don't worry about sharpening into the overgrind area. I agree with No ChoP about his comparison with Takeda. Would I buy another Moritaka? Probably not, considering that there are many other options out there that do not come with q/c problems.

Perhaps the communucation issues with Akiko stem from an innate quality of the Japanese not to be confrontational. It's not that they won't acknowledge a problem, but they will lull you into a false sense of security that they fully understand what you are trying to get across, even if they are not quite sure. I'm not an expert on the culture by any means, but I have experienced this in certain situations.
However, a merchant that claims to have an excellent rapport with a supplier should be able to back it up. And of course they should be held accountable for the quality of the product or service they sell.

Ok, gotta go...typhoon is coming.

NO ChoP!
05-28-2011, 11:24 AM
I really didn't mean to be negative by using the term slander; but Dave isn't a consumer, he's a vendor.... different situation than one choosing coke over pepsi. I was rather suggesting to err on the side of caution, as a consumer has zero to lose. That being said, I believe whole heartedly that Dave has recognized an issue. I think most know that Moritaka is very "rustic", but if it effects its quality, something probably should be said. But, it should be by the owners of these problematic blades who address this to the maker. Trust me, when I have issues, I get results. People need to speak up! If my knife had a default issue, I wouldn't rest until it was properly addressed.

And maybe, just a little, I don't want to believe, as I really like my Moritaka....... :(

goodchef1
05-28-2011, 05:43 PM
maybe there should be a rant and rave section here. But professionalism is definitely key here. Threads like this normally go into side taking and defending opinions and character.

I don't own a Moritaka, and this will not keep me from possibly purchasing one in the future because I've also read elsewhere, great reviews on this knife, and $150 is not a bad trade-off for what I expect will be flaws.

most people will do their own research and make informed decisions so I would not be too concerned about someones personal experience or opinions about a company, and/or its consumers. :)

in general, most people just want a knife that works, and does the job it was intended to do, and some with higher standards will expose flaws.

UglyJoe
05-28-2011, 06:31 PM
maybe there should be a rant and rave section here. But professionalism is definitely key here. Threads like this normally go into side taking and defending opinions and character.

I don't own a Moritaka, and this will not keep me from possibly purchasing one in the future because I've also read elsewhere, great reviews on this knife, and $150 is not a bad trade-off for what I expect will be flaws.

most people will do their own research and make informed decisions so I would not be too concerned about someones personal experience or opinions about a company, and/or its consumers. :)

in general, most people just want a knife that works, and does the job it was intended to do, and some with higher standards will expose flaws.


That's just it, for knives that hit the board this flaw prevents the knife from doing what it's intended to to. If you cut food on the board with this flaw, then you get accordion food. If you use more rock or thrust in your cut you probably won't see as much of this, as the part of the knife that does touch the board can slice through the cut, but the knife still isn't working as it's supposed too. So not so much an issue for a petty or suji, but for a gyuto, nakiri, or cleaver it could be a total failure.

Dave, there is one thing I've never understood about this issue; if I'm understanding you right the knives are overground significantly in some places on the wide bevel, which then leads to that section, when sharpened, to no longer contact the board. This seems like it could be fixed simply by thinning the other parts of the knife. Why isn't this a viable option?

unkajonet
05-28-2011, 07:05 PM
I really didn't mean to be negative by using the term slander; but Dave isn't a consumer, he's a vendor.... different situation than one choosing coke over pepsi. I was rather suggesting to err on the side of caution, as a consumer has zero to lose. That being said, I believe whole heartedly that Dave has recognized an issue. I think most know that Moritaka is very "rustic", but if it effects its quality, something probably should be said. But, it should be by the owners of these problematic blades who address this to the maker. Trust me, when I have issues, I get results. People need to speak up! If my knife had a default issue, I wouldn't rest until it was properly addressed.

And maybe, just a little, I don't want to believe, as I really like my Moritaka....... :(

Dave is a vendor, but until very recently, a vendor that didn't sell knives. He serviced them. That was his niche. If I told my mechanic I was thinking of buying a Yugo, and he told me that Yugos have problems, he's not trying to sell me anything. He's trying to save me potential (probable) headaches down the line, based on his experience of him working on way more Yugos than I will ever see. If I still decide to buy one, well, that's on me. But at least the mechanic was looking out for my interests.

jheis
05-28-2011, 08:12 PM
Slander is writing something that isn't true. People are writing what they have experienced with the Moritaka product.

No, actually it would be libel.

Whether a defamatory statement is libel or slander depends on the medium in which it is made (published). The "shorthand" difference is that libel is written and slander is spoken.

Sorry, I'm a lawyer.... :cool2:

James

Dave Martell
05-28-2011, 10:02 PM
Dave, there is one thing I've never understood about this issue; if I'm understanding you right the knives are overground significantly in some places on the wide bevel, which then leads to that section, when sharpened, to no longer contact the board. This seems like it could be fixed simply by thinning the other parts of the knife. Why isn't this a viable option?


Theoretically this should be something that can be done, I'm just not that skilled to pull it off and it's likely the same is true for the maker that created the problem in the first place.

sudsy9977
05-28-2011, 10:46 PM
you would have to grind everywhere except that very specific spot....seems like too tall of an order if u ask me.....ryan

Lefty
05-29-2011, 12:37 AM
Not to mention the majority of Moritaka knives are clad, so thinning is only doable to a point.

rockbox
05-29-2011, 12:52 AM
you would have to grind everywhere except that very specific spot....seems like too tall of an order if u ask me.....ryan

I just went through this with the knife I made. I couldn't just let the slight overgrind go. I had to regrind the whole knife. It took me about an hour behind the grinder plus another hour refinishing the knife. The kurouchi finish would be gone. For the amount of work that goes into it, you could buy another knife. The fact that moritakas are so thin in the first place, makes it more difficult. There isn't much metal to play with and you would end up with a razor blade attached to some iron.

Jameson
05-29-2011, 02:01 AM
I wish this didn't bother me so much and I didn't feel the need to make these posts, I'm just so sick of having to tell another person that I can't fix their new knife. Oh and to make matters worse I won't add to their problems so I won't charge to return ship it back to them. Imagine how much money I've lost in postal fees alone, if I told you how much I've lost in being burnt by working on these knives you'd shudder. I'm just tired of this whole thing with them.

Oh your gonna charge me, and I am gonna pay! You have done nothing wrong Dave, and your business spent time and resources (knowledge) analyzing my piece, you need to be compensated for this, at least for the shipping.... I appreciate your honesty in fact. Wish I needed your services more to be honest, but my edges come out pretty darn good (except for this knife obviously).

Thanks for at least venting on behalf... I am gonna try and send it back to the maker and at least get a replacement, or discount on a new knife, as well as giving a serious look to NEVER purchasing another knife at CKTG...

Appreciate the time Dave.

JC

Jameson
05-29-2011, 02:07 AM
I also want to mention that my problems occurred when the initial edge (not very sharp) dulled to the point where I could see light on the edge, I took it to the stones and after 15-20 minutes of progression, it had little chips everywhere, it will slice paper, but you can feel the blade catch, almost like nicks. Thinking it was just too hard for me to sharpen (previously 62hrc AS steel was my highest) I decided to send it off to a pro, and this thread is the result...

JC

rockbox
05-29-2011, 02:21 AM
What I don't get is why Mark pushes this brand so hard. especially when he dropped Hiromoto for F&F issues. Does he have an exclusive agreement with them?

steeley
05-29-2011, 02:43 AM
The forum word of the day is YUGO .
Check your score cards.http://www.limepic.com/img/yugogv2.jpg

Cookin808
05-29-2011, 03:33 AM
Is this problem being found in all the Moritakas (both damascus and kurouchi)or just one of their lines? Have people that have this problem attempted to return the knives to CKTG and been unsuccessful in getting either a replacement or monies back? I have purchased a bunch of stuff from them recently and found that their service and response time seems to be up to par. It just seems very unusual that they would blow off a problem of this magnitude if it is reoccuring at the rate in which forum members are stating. Just curious and wanting to get the full story as I was thinking about adding a few of these knives to the collection.

Cnimativ
05-29-2011, 04:33 AM
Reading through all six pages I still dont really understand the problem. Anyone care to delight me?

bieniek
05-29-2011, 06:16 AM
If you look at the photo of Moritakas profile. You see the secondary bevel - the one that meets the Kurouchi and goes down until the, lets make it simple, edge.
The problem is, that in the secondary bevel some aggresive sharpener pressed to hard, and only at one point on the blade [or maybe pressed it down to one side of the wheel?] which resulted in low spot not in the cutting edge itself, but in the metal that is backing it up.
As result after first sharpening youre ending up with hole in cutting edge, in the spot where the backup metal is thinner on the sides. Everytime you sharpen, hole gets bigger.

And Daves concern, or one of them, is that the tougher metal part is not going all the way up to the spine, so in the intention to fix it you could literally wear the hagane down and you will end up with soft iron Gyuto.
[hope Im right and that helps]
The photo comes form paulsfinest. I could swear i can see a bump near heel?

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m310/carl00s/t_1021.jpg

rockbox
05-29-2011, 06:57 AM
If you look at the photo of Moritakas profile. You see the secondary bevel - the one that meets the Kurouchi and goes down until the, lets make it simple, edge.
The problem is, that in the secondary bevel some aggresive sharpener pressed to hard, and only at one point on the blade [or maybe pressed it down to one side of the wheel?] which resulted in low spot not in the cutting edge itself, but in the metal that is backing it up.
As result after first sharpening youre ending up with hole in cutting edge, in the spot where the backup metal is thinner on the sides. Everytime you sharpen, hole gets bigger.

And Daves concern, or one of them, is that the tougher metal part is not going all the way up to the spine, so in the intention to fix it you could literally wear the hagane down and you will end up with soft iron Gyuto.
[hope Im right and that helps]
The photo comes form paulsfinest. I could swear i can see a bump near heel?

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m310/carl00s/t_1021.jpg

The issue is bigger than that. Holes in the edge are easy to fix. The bevel is actually wavy because of the overgrind. To fix the issue, the bevel/knife has to be ground down to the lowest point .

bieniek
05-29-2011, 07:35 AM
isnt that what i written? sorry if its unclear

dough
05-29-2011, 08:54 AM
yea this is a sad issue and its gone on too long.

i like guys like no chop are proud of a nice knife they own but ya know what sucks is when a friend brings over a moritaka and ya gotta turn to him and say i cant fix this or i cant really help.(i sharpen a lot of friend and family members knives whether they like or not sometimes because i like to not for money... when they offer to pay i laugh and say come to the restaurant; pay me to cook because im a cook... sharpening my knives is more then a hobby but sharpening yours is only a hobby) sure i can make it sharp but the bevel/edge is barely better. sure they are cheap considering the steel used gets sharp but why even sharpen them if you plan to muck up the whole thing... look at aritsugu as a clear example... sometimes its better to get an unsharpened knife in great steel then it is to get a knife with a bevel that takes unbelievably more time to fix if your even good enough to do it. dave sharpens a loooot of knives and is telling us that this problem isnt worth his time to fix... this to me is the most telling picture as dave is proud of his work and wont work on a knife he doesnt plan to be proud of... making it better is not enough because its still flawed and you didnt pay him to leave your knife flawed.

either way i dont like the whole context of moritakas work... and i own a good one btw. imo friends dont let friends buy moritaka.

shankster
05-29-2011, 09:54 AM
dough: What is it about "the whole context of moritakas work" that you don't like?

Seb
05-29-2011, 05:43 PM
I had heard/read all about the issues and I went and bought one anyway direct from Moritaka and gave the odds that there was a 50/50 chance of a FUBAR blade. Far as I can tell, it's fine/all good.

shankster
05-29-2011, 07:03 PM
Luck of the draw I guess.But like I stated on another post,that's the risk you take when you're buying anything manufactured,knife,car, tv whatever.It's the customer service that makes the difference.

Booink
05-29-2011, 09:28 PM
Some may accept or even like the lottery, but I'm one of those who insist on a zero dead pixel guarantee, so I'd never gamble on getting lucky with a knife. Thaks for the warning.

shankster
05-29-2011, 10:09 PM
"Nothing ventured,nothing gained" :)

Seb
05-29-2011, 10:18 PM
Some may accept or even like the lottery, but I'm one of those who insist on a zero dead pixel guarantee, so I'd never gamble on getting lucky with a knife. Thaks for the warning.

It's the same with Masamoto's CT and HC series and quite a few other household names, Aritsugu comes to mind.

Mattias504
05-29-2011, 10:53 PM
The bottom line is that if you want to get a KU knife in that style, you should go with Takeda. I've never heard of these kind of issues with Takeda's knives.

shankster
05-29-2011, 11:12 PM
The bottom line is that if you want to get a KU knife in that style, you should go with Takeda. I've never heard of these kind of issues with Takeda's knives.

At almost double the price,plus I've heard of other QA issues with Takeda.

Seb
05-30-2011, 12:21 AM
And then there's Yamawaku which is amazing for the price (under $100).

dough
05-30-2011, 01:48 AM
yea sorry for delayed response but these knives pretend to be a bargain for a quality knife even claiming to be custom in that you can attempt to get the design and grind you want for a.... bargain price. it turns out yes they will make that shape but that work cant support the shape.
with that said sometimes it can. my knife takes a great edge and its very easy to sharpen. i like the steel.
maybe my point is im not a gambler but in general most cooks i know think 150 aint cheap and for that money a failure in a knife represents more then oh well ill learn from my mistake... its more f this... this money could have been blah blah blah and now i gotta spend blah to fix it at best or just spend that much or more again.
so to me the context is that these knives being a bargain when they are a gamble.

Seb
05-30-2011, 02:02 AM
You're not stuck with the knife because both Moritaka Hamono and CKTG accept returns.

dough
05-30-2011, 02:05 AM
i never bought one from cktg but moritaka hasnt been the nicest to me. perhaps thats me. i wasnt looking to send it back just curious what was up.

in the end admittedly im just a fool.

Seb
05-30-2011, 02:23 AM
That's funny, Akiko was perfectly nice about it when I said that I had heard on the forums about the grind issues and I wanted them to be extra careful when they did the grind on mine.

Cnimativ
05-30-2011, 04:37 AM
At almost double the price,plus I've heard of other QA issues with Takeda.

For example? IMO its not responsible to make claims w/o supporting cases. But its just me.

At least people complaining about Moritaka in this thread have supporting evidences.

shankster
05-30-2011, 07:53 AM
For example? IMO its not responsible to make claims w/o supporting cases. But its just me.

At least people complaining about Moritaka in this thread have supporting evidences.

I've read about complaints of too much/messy epoxy work on the collar more than once(sorry no names or addresses to back up my evidence),does that make Takeda a bad knife? Certainly not,but it goes to show that even a highly regarded blade-smith can have some faults with some of his products

And from what I can read,most of the people complaining or commenting negatively on this thread about Moritaka don't own,have never owned or even seen the "problem" first hand. Just jumping on the "anti-Moritaka" bandwagon.

WildBoar
05-30-2011, 08:43 AM
I dunno -- sloppy epoxy work isn't the same thing as a screwed up cutting edge. The epoxy is not a performance issue. The meat of this thread seems to be about flaws that affect the ability of the knife to cut properly over time (as sharpening opens the holes). So it's about a maker who delivers a product that does not always perform the intended function the way it should.

shankster
05-30-2011, 09:04 AM
[QUOTE=WildBoar;19313]I dunno -- sloppy epoxy work isn't the same thing as a screwed up cutting edge. The epoxy is not a performance issue. The meat of this thread seems to be about flaws that affect the ability of the knife to cut properly over time (as sharpening opens the holes). So it's about a maker who delivers a product that does not always perform the intended function the way it should.[/QUOTE

I never said it was the same thing,I was using it as an example of how even the most beloved craftsmen can produce less than perfect examples of their work.I am in no way condoning the "overgrind" issue Dave found on some of the Moritakas he's worked on,especially if it affects performance of the knife.I'd be pissed if my knife had that problem,just like I'd be pissed if I paid $300+ for a Takeda with sloppy epoxy work.

Peter

NO ChoP!
05-30-2011, 11:39 AM
I think people have only said Takedas excess epoxy is ugly.... I don't know if I'd call it a flaw. One thing I always thought was odd from Takeda was the fact that from knife to knife, the profile/ geometry can be completely different. My buddy owns a 240mm gyuto, same as me. Mine is thinner and his blade tip is noticeably lower???????

Cadillac J
05-30-2011, 01:18 PM
I think people have only said Takedas excess epoxy is ugly.... I don't know if I'd call it a flaw


This is the only 'complaint' I've really ever heard about Takeda.

But as long as you don't want an immediate re-handle, I actually am cool with the epoxy on Takeda because it completely seals off any tiny gaps from moisture.
http://i56.tinypic.com/mrenow.jpg

tweyland
05-30-2011, 02:01 PM
For what it's worth, I have an AS gyuto from Moritaka, and I had a great experience in ordering it a few years ago. I requested some specific details about setting the handle and the balance point, which they accomodated very nicely. There was a slight low spot on the bevel grind near the heel, which has disappeared as I've thinned the whole knife. There's also a tendency for the knife to curve to one side, and I just adjust it the other way. I don't doubt that some people have had some issues, but for me I feel I got a fair deal - a semi-custom AS knife which I have now tweaked and tuned to my liking.

~Tad

SpikeC
05-30-2011, 02:39 PM
There is nothing sloppy about the epoxy on the handle of the Takeda. It is very tidy and smooth. It is merely the way that he insures that nothing gets into the handle. As a truely hand made article some variation from piece to piece is inevitable, the blanks are not stamped out. And the performance of the knife is above reproach.
So how does a comparison to Takeda excuse the issue of over-grinding?

shankster
05-30-2011, 03:10 PM
There is nothing sloppy about the epoxy on the handle of the Takeda. It is very tidy and smooth. It is merely the way that he insures that nothing gets into the handle. As a truely hand made article some variation from piece to piece is inevitable, the blanks are not stamped out. And the performance of the knife is above reproach.
So how does a comparison to Takeda excuse the issue of over-grinding?

"Sloppy/messy" were words used by others in some the of reviews I have read on Takedas knives,not mine. Sorry if I have offended any Takeda owners,that was not my intention.I guess if you weren't expecting that kind of epoxy work on your knife,you might think it was a "flaw". If that's the way Takeda makes his knives and there's a reason for it,then no it's not sloppy or messy,but not everyone is going to like it.

heirkb
06-01-2011, 11:35 PM
Sorry to bring this thread back, but I have a question that I can't seem to figure out myself. Maybe Dave can help me answer it. How is the problem with these Moritakas any different from the high and low spots people seem to find on a lot of single beveled knives? From what I understand based on what I've read, people fix those issues, right? I know people have already said why they don't think you can fix this issue, so I'm more looking for how this issue (i.e. the Moritaka overgrind) is different from the high and low spots on yanagis, which is an issue that seems to be fairly common and commonly repaired.

tk59
06-01-2011, 11:55 PM
On western style knives overgrinds on the face of the knife manifest themselves in either dents or weak spots in your edge that crumble or deform readily. On traditional Japanese knives, a low spot on the secondary bevel will just grind out with normal sharpening. A lot of people choose to homogenize the blade road but it really doesn't affect the edge in the same way.

Lefty
06-02-2011, 10:42 AM
Another way to look at it would be, on a yanagi, the high and low spots are more accurately a proper and an improper (fat) spot. Grinding down the fat spot isn't necessary, as long as the edge is true. It's more to improve the performance, and make everything uniform.
From what i'm getting from the info we've read here, and elsewhere, on a double beveled knife (as is the case with said Moritakas) the improper grind is more of a hole waiting to show itself, once the support underneath it has been sharpened away. So, there's a proper thickness/grind (thicker) and an improper grind (thinner). You can't really fix the problem by creating uniformity (thinning), because in the process the entire edge would fail.
Hope that clears it up.

mikemac
06-02-2011, 10:58 AM
....how this issue (i.e. the Moritaka overgrind) is different from the high and low spots on yanagis, which is an issue that seems to be fairly common and commonly repaired.

As I understand these two [I]different[I] issues, the hi and lo spots on the 'Moritaka' type of overgrind impact the cutting edge, and can be seen by placing the edge on a cutting board and observing hi spots with light coming thru where the edge is not contacting the cutting board. On a yanagi, the hi & lo spots are on the Blade path, from the Shinogi line to the edge bevel (or to the edge?), and this would seen by laying the knife on its flat side and looking 'down' the balde path (or road).

Dave Martell
06-02-2011, 11:08 AM
Actually Mike, the Moritaka issue is also (and often only initially) seen on the side of the knife (blade road) similar to a yanagi.


@heirkb, The issue with yanagiba is depressions in the blade road that seem to never effect the cutting edge because they are up high enough from the edge that when the blade road if flattened the problem is corrected, this happens long before the cutting edge is worked into these low areas. On Moritakas, the blade road/bevel is worn right down into the cutting edge making the hole appear. It's a similar problem yet very different simply because of the location of the depression is different on each knife. Now if we're talking usuba then we could say many cheap ones have Moritaka bevels because they do.....I hate cheap usubas.

NO ChoP!
06-02-2011, 11:10 AM
You can't really fix the problem by creating uniformity (thinning), because in the process the entire edge would fail.
Hope that clears it up.

Ouch! Yah, that would be cause for huge disappointment. I really wish we had an accurate number as to how many knives are affected; 1 in 10; 9 in 10????

Its obviously been pointed out to them by now, I wonder if they are currently paying closer attention....

Could it have been certain batches only? Others being fine????

Dave Martell
06-02-2011, 11:16 AM
I would say, conservatively, that 7 out of 10 that I see are screwed up.

NO ChoP!
06-02-2011, 11:24 AM
Even if you said 1 in 10, that would be cause for alarm..... I will have to rethink my planned future kiritsuke purchase... maybe a Takeda is in order instead; unless anyone knows of another maker doing double beveled kiritsuke shaped gyutos? #lefty issues#

rockbox
06-02-2011, 11:25 AM
I would say, conservatively, that 7 out of 10 that I see are screwed up.

I bet you probably see a disproportionate number of bad ones because people send them to you when they can fix it themselves.

For those of you who still don't understand the issue, I drew this very crude illustration to highlight the problem.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/clutchcity/overgrind-1.gif

Even if you grind a away at the blade, the hole still there and there is nothing to reinforce the edge.

Dave Martell
06-02-2011, 11:40 AM
Actually most people are shocked to hear that their knife has a problem.

UglyJoe
06-02-2011, 11:48 AM
I will go out on a limb and say that they have a different polisher for their kurouchi lines and their damascus lines. If I recall correctly, Dave said he's never seen this issue with the Damascus line - though that could be because he hasn't seen nearly as many of the damascus knives from Moritaka. However, it wouldn't surprise me if they are using "cheap" help on the kurouchi line - a young apprentice or someone who doesn't really have experience in sharpening. Also they could be using a wheel that is very unevenly ground for the kurouchi line. To sell the knives at the pricepoint they are selling them at they have to cut corners somewhere. If they have an uneven grinding wheel all it would take is a few seconds of too much pressure on the wheel to cause this issue, and an inexperienced or poor sharpener probably never even picks up on the problem.

Cookin808
06-02-2011, 12:47 PM
Any chances of getting a high res picture of the problem up so we can see what this defective overgrind looks like. Is it as exaggerated as the illustration shows or something that can be caught only with the trained eye?

rockbox
06-02-2011, 01:16 PM
Any chances of getting a high res picture of the problem up so we can see what this defective overgrind looks like. Is it as exaggerated as the illustration shows or something that can be caught only with the trained eye?

The picture is somewhat exaggerated because the overgrind is uniform where on most knives it is not. Its easiest to see by looking at the bevel. If it is wavy with parts missing, then you have a problem. From a performance standpoint, you can detect it by testing each segment of the edge. If there is a portion that doesn't get sharp, then that may be your issue.

stereo.pete
06-02-2011, 01:23 PM
Rockbox, thank you for the illustration as I now finally understand what you guys have been talking about. Value added!

mikemac
06-02-2011, 01:31 PM
...anyone knows of another maker doing double beveled kiritsuke shaped gyutos? #lefty issues#

Nenox, but probably not the answer you wanted....
http://korin.com/Wa-Kiritsuke_2?sc=20&category=52057

Did Watanabe make a special run of them for a group buy? (maybe 2 years ago?)

bieniek
06-02-2011, 03:32 PM
funny You mention that.
I just did one today and I fell in Love with it.
Its not the sharpest knife you can get, definitely not the thinnest either.
But its taking crazy edge easily, the metal is pleasant to work with, the shape feels great, handle is perfectly thick for my liking, and even when you hold it pinch grip you feel the blade-heaviness, like its whispering to you to just cut something.... ahhh great knife :)

jaybett
06-02-2011, 04:28 PM
Nenox, but probably not the answer you wanted....
http://korin.com/Wa-Kiritsuke_2?sc=20&category=52057

Did Watanabe make a special run of them for a group buy? (maybe 2 years ago?)

There was a buzz on ITK and FF about Kiritsukes a few years ago. The experienced users kept cautioning people that it was a knife that took time to learn. I don't recall a Watanabe group buy. Mark at CKTG, went on a Kiritsuke spree, where he was ordering them from every maker.

Remember, I think his name was Charlie, who I believe went by Vermont Cook, on ITK. He'd order top end knives and quickly turn around and sell them at deep discounts. He purchased a Nenox kirituke liked it so much, that he ordered a custom one from Konosuke. Before the order was completed he changed his mind, and no longer wanted it. He sold a it, at a deep discount. The kiritsuke was so new that Konosuke shipped it directly to the new buyer.

NO ChoP! If your concerned about the Moritaka problem. Have Mark ship it to Dave. If there is a problem, return the knife to Mark. You may be out shipping and what ever Dave charges, but at least you avoided the problem.

By the way, I have a Moritaka kiritsuke. I prefer flat edges and wanted something with an aggressive tip. Since it was going to be used on the tougher jobs in the kitchen, the Moritaka problem wasn't an issue for me. The kiritsuke has been a nice compliment to my cleavers.

While there is a certain charm to a Takeda knife with the kirouchi finish, the price versus the competitors is getting out line. A cleaver for $550 or a honesuki for $299.

Jay

Pensacola Tiger
06-02-2011, 04:54 PM
There was a buzz on ITK and FF about Kiritsukes a few years ago. The experienced users kept cautioning people that it was a knife that took time to learn. I don't recall a Watanabe group buy. Mark at CKTG, went on a Kiritsuke spree, where he was ordering them from every maker.

Remember, I think his name was Charlie, who I believe went by Vermont Cook, on ITK. He'd order top end knives and quickly turn around and sell them at deep discounts. He purchased a Nenox kirituke liked it so much, that he ordered a custom one from Konosuke. Before the order was completed he changed his mind, and no longer wanted it. He sold a it, at a deep discount. The kiritsuke was so new that Konosuke shipped it directly to the new buyer.

NO ChoP! If your concerned about the Moritaka problem. Have Mark ship it to Dave. If there is a problem, return the knife to Mark. You may be out shipping and what ever Dave charges, but at least you avoided the problem.

By the way, I have a Moritaka kiritsuke. I prefer flat edges and wanted something with an aggressive tip. Since it was going to be used on the tougher jobs in the kitchen, the Moritaka problem wasn't an issue for me. The kiritsuke has been a nice compliment to my cleavers.

While there is a certain charm to a Takeda knife with the kirouchi finish, the price versus the competitors is getting out line. A cleaver for $550 or a honesuki for $299.

Jay



It probably just slipped Jay's mind, but Watanabe made a run of kiritsuke shaped gyutos about two years ago for a group buy that Marko initiated. http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/855049/

Mark Richmond got two of them and had Marko make handles and sayas for them. The last one Mark had sold in November, 2010, if I'm not mistaken.

I believe I will be getting the last one that Marko has for sale, just waiting for the saya to be completed. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?431-Work-in-Progess&p=18772&viewfull=1#post18772

Rick

mhenry
06-02-2011, 10:02 PM
Have you guys seen the new considerably higher prices on Moritaka at CKTG

Seb
06-02-2011, 10:12 PM
Probably because of the USD falling against the Yen.

Dave Martell
06-02-2011, 11:31 PM
Maybe these are special no holes versions? :D

heirkb
06-03-2011, 01:10 AM
@heirkb, The issue with yanagiba is depressions in the blade road that seem to never effect the cutting edge because they are up high enough from the edge that when the blade road if flattened the problem is corrected, this happens long before the cutting edge is worked into these low areas. On Moritakas, the blade road/bevel is worn right down into the cutting edge making the hole appear. It's a similar problem yet very different simply because of the location of the depression is different on each knife. Now if we're talking usuba then we could say many cheap ones have Moritaka bevels because they do.....I hate cheap usubas.

Thanks, Dave. I'm not good at visualizing these types of things, but I thought about this a few times, and it makes perfect sense. A yanagi with a low spot ground down close to the edge would have the same issue as a Moritaka, right?

Dave Martell
06-03-2011, 01:15 AM
Yup, exactly.

NO ChoP!
06-03-2011, 08:48 AM
While there is a certain charm to a Takeda knife with the kirouchi finish, the price versus the competitors is getting out line. A cleaver for $550 or a honesuki for $299.

Jay

My thought exactly....I was blown away when I saw $299 for the long awaited honesuki. I can get the 240 kiritsuke for the same?????? WT?? Although, I like Takeda, it is rather utilitarian, and for $550 for a cleaver, I am sure you could find something much more impressive, no?


I did thoroughly inspect my Moritaka 300mm yanagi, and swear that on the right side bevel, there is slightly more material than the left; noticeable about two inches down from the tip. The left side seems straight and flat, with no visible "hole", but, the grind is slightly more aggressive. But, this is only evident with a magnifying glass, and me scrutinizing its every last detail for a half hour. I've owned it for a year, and never thought anything less than great of it prior.....

Lefty
06-03-2011, 09:41 AM
Then why start now? It likely is great, like you thought all along!

olpappy
06-03-2011, 11:42 PM
While certainly not desirable, I have to point out that overgrinds are not as rare as one might think, and they are certainly not confined to Moritaka. I have seen them on other knives as well, it is inevitable that with a product which is being ground by hand on power equipment that sometimes a craftsman will screw up and overgrind. Undesirable, but part of the reality of producing large numbers of knives. Quality control of the maker should catch the worst examples, however it is also duty of the consumer to inspect a new purchase to see that it meets their expectations. A knife blade road will never be completely perfect as long as it has been ground by human hands.

In most cases the flaws are so small that they are difficult to notice and do not affect performance. In cases where overgrinding is more noticeable, basically what you will have is a Granton or cullen that goes to the edge. Not what you would want, but the knife will still cut. Sometimes you just have to live with flaws.

I challenge anyone to take a bar of steel and try grinding it into a knife blade. You will quickly find out how difficult it is. Who knows what kind of crappy grinders they have in Japan, maybe we should chip in and send Moritaka a KMG or something. Did anyone who visited Moritaka happen to notice the equipment they were using for grinding??

BTW I have a lot of Moritakas and haven't had problems so far.

dreamsignals
06-04-2011, 12:42 AM
my first japanese knife ever was a moritaka 240mm gyuto ordered directly through akiko around november 2009, no special requests. i went for it after a few weeks reading on KF ITK since it was so much cheaper than the 'equivalent' takeda (the moritaka was $225). it wasn't until i ordered the fact it wasn't until the knife was shipped that i found the more grave threads on the infamous holes. since i was a completely inexperienced i sent the knife for Dave to 'analyze' and sharpen, and dave told me it was a dud and sent it back to me. i emailed akiko immediately and explained what was going on, basically paraphrasing what Dave had told me. she apologized copiously and immediately offered a refund, including costs of shipping back to japan.

when i got the knife back i looked for the defect and convinced myself that it was there, but would not have bet my life on it. having no experience, i felt comfortable relying on Dave's professional opinion (he actually shipped the knife back to me on his own money). around the same time, i got talking to Mark from CKTG and he was just starting to sell the takeda kiritsuke shaped gyuto so i jumped on that and was a happy camper.

in the end, i still wish that it had worked out with the moritaka. akiko is just that nice.

now that i've told my story, let me try to make this a bit more informative. here is akiko's answers to me pointing out the grind issues. you'll notice the language barrier played a role and perhaps i was not great in expressing the issues:


Dear Thiago,

Thank you very much for your many support.

I've recieved the gyuto, today.
I showed it to our blacksmith immediately.

''1) The tip seems to be hanging lower than the rest of the edge, so
that a portion of the front edge does not come in contact with the
board when laid perpendicular to it;

2) The heel of the knife also hand a little lower than the rest of the
edge, leaving again a small gap between the edge and the board towards
the last half inch of the edge near the heel;''

As to 1) and 2), our gyuto has a belly the best suited for drawing and
cutting.
Therefore there're some gap on the tip and heel originally.
Japanese get used to do drawing and cuting.
But, Soba-kiri (knife) has a dead flat edge because it's used while
pressing and cutting.
If a customer ask us to make a straight edged knife, we'll make it as a
customer wants.
Excluding it, we make our original shaped knives.

''3) The edge seems to be somewhat 'wavy' when looked at with the knife
in vertical position, holding the tip towards your face, with "curves"
along the side of the edge. I fear that once the knife is sharpened,
this "wavy" may cause some areas to wear differently than other,
creating gaps between the edge and the board when cutting;''

As to 3), after it's hardened (quenched), it turns somewhat wavy. Therefore
we remove distortions with a special hammer after ''Tempering'' process.
We make it flat (level off) as far as there is no problem within the
practical use.
If we make a sword, we must make it dead flat while we put the edge on the
glass board and check it.

In your knife case, we don't consider it a defect. We admit it has wavy
part. But it is leveled off enough for the practical use.
Of course, it can be fixed by hand.
It isn't special that hand-made (forged) kitchen knives have somewhat wavy
parts because it's hand-made, not machine-made.
We've experienced to sharpen other maker's knives have similar conditions.
Even if it has much wavier blade, we sharpen and straighten it with a
whetstone while checking and adjusting the conditions of the blade.
You may well say ''I fear that once the knife is sharpened, this "wavy" may
cause some areas to wear differently than other, creating gaps between the
edge and the board when cutting''.
But we're sorry but we have to hand-made our knives considering necessity of
work.
If we pursue to make perfect knives, we have to spend much more time to
check blades. But, as a result, we can't sell our knives at the present
prices.
Our goal is, our knives are used by as many customers as possible. We'd like
to sell our knives with cheaper price compared with other makers.

We would appreciate it if you could understand our thoughts.

Cnimativ
06-04-2011, 02:30 AM
While certainly not desirable, I have to point out that overgrinds are not as rare as one might think, and they are certainly not confined to Moritaka. I have seen them on other knives as well, it is inevitable that with a product which is being ground by hand on power equipment that sometimes a craftsman will screw up and overgrind. Undesirable, but part of the reality of producing large numbers of knives. Quality control of the maker should catch the worst examples, however it is also duty of the consumer to inspect a new purchase to see that it meets their expectations. A knife blade road will never be completely perfect as long as it has been ground by human hands.

In most cases the flaws are so small that they are difficult to notice and do not affect performance. In cases where overgrinding is more noticeable, basically what you will have is a Granton or cullen that goes to the edge. Not what you would want, but the knife will still cut. Sometimes you just have to live with flaws.

I challenge anyone to take a bar of steel and try grinding it into a knife blade. You will quickly find out how difficult it is. Who knows what kind of crappy grinders they have in Japan, maybe we should chip in and send Moritaka a KMG or something. Did anyone who visited Moritaka happen to notice the equipment they were using for grinding??

BTW I have a lot of Moritakas and haven't had problems so far.

what's a standard process to detect overgrind, especially for rustic kurouchi finishes?

olpappy
06-04-2011, 01:16 PM
what's a standard process to detect overgrind, especially for rustic kurouchi finishes?

Dave is the expert, so let's see what he says.

AFAIK its just close inspection of the blade road, plus what shows up when you sharpen the blade repeatedly.

Here is a pic of a Granton slicer with cullens going all the way into the edge, alternating on both sides. You can see in the photo that where the cullen is ground the edge becomes very thin. At the very edge you can see a tiny dip in the edge where the cullen on the opposite side is. It kind of imparts a slight 'sawtooth' effect where the irregularities in the edge are. In some ways a bit like a serrated edge.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/6-4-11018.jpg

However, I'm still not clear on what Dave describes as a hole in the edge which gets bigger as you sharpen. If he is referring to the phenomenon pictured above, it seems to me that the size of the edge defect is limited by the depth of the overgrind, it would not keep getting bigger and bigger unless the overgrind itself gets bigger and bigger.

Basically to me it is the same as using a knife which has a slight chip or ding in the edge, if it is very small you won't notice any difference in cutting, but if it's bigger you might find it annoying. The only difference is that with an overgrind like this, you cannot remove it by sharpening. That is why Dave has to tell his customers that he cannot get rid of it, it's just an area of metal that has been removed, and there is no way to put it back once it is gone.

I have a couple of used knives I got with pre-existing chip/ding in the edge, it's obviously not something I want, but they work OK and it's not much of an issue for me when cutting food. I just try to sharpen them as best as possible, and they work just fine.

Dave Martell
06-04-2011, 01:41 PM
what's a standard process to detect overgrind, especially for rustic kurouchi finishes?


You want to look at the bevel grinds right above the cutting edge. I use a small (2-3" length) straight edge engineer's square laid along the length. I inspect for light under the straight edge when looking down from the spine. You have to inspect very close to the cutting edge and also just above (maybe 1-2mm) the edge. Check both sides carefully.

rockbox
06-04-2011, 02:14 PM
How do you even sharpen that thing? A flat stone would never even touch the edge. You would have to sharpen it like a serrated knife.

Booink
06-04-2011, 09:46 PM
How do you even sharpen that thing? A flat stone would never even touch the edge. You would have to sharpen it like a serrated knife.

Yeah, that's what I discovered today while "fixing" a $30 knive with a horrible grind... While working on the edge, a part of it just stayed narrow and it looked like a part on the knife isn't touching the stone. I rechecked the blade against a flat aluminium plate and the sun. Yup, the light leakage from the hole makes it kinda obvious that this knife needs more fixing...

Luckily it isn't overground too high, only a mm or two, and the edge itself had a hole of a cm wide and a hair in height, so I could just push it against a stone with an extra high angle until the whole edge touches the stone again. But if it was any worse, I'd only make the hole larger instead of smaller. Ah well, I knew there's a catch with those super cheap Eden branded vg10 knives :p

Dave Martell
06-04-2011, 09:49 PM
Yeah, that's what I discovered today while "fixing" a $30 knive with a horrible grind... While working on the edge, a part of it just stayed narrow and it looked like a part on the knife isn't touching the stone. I rechecked the blade against a flat aluminium plate and the sun. Yup, the light leakage from the hole makes it kinda obvious that this knife needs more fixing...

Luckily it isn't overground too high, only a mm or two, and the edge itself had a hole of a cm wide and a hair in height, so I could just push it against a stone with an extra high angle until the whole edge touches the stone again. But if it was any worse, I'd only make the hole larger instead of smaller. Ah well, I knew there's a catch with those super cheap Eden branded vg10 knives :p


Sounds in better shape than a $150 Moritaka :)

mateo
06-06-2011, 04:54 PM
Speaking of this... I just discovered that my Shun steak knives are mis-ground like this as well >.<

Dave Martell
06-06-2011, 05:05 PM
Speaking of this... I just discovered that my Shun steak knives are mis-ground like this as well >.<


I've seen a lot of Shuns with low hanging heals but in all cases that I recall I was able to fix this by re-profiling during sharpening. So in the case of Shuns the issue doesn't appear to be overgrinds from the side of the blades although yours could certainly be that way, all I can state is for what I've what I've seen.

watercrawl
06-06-2011, 05:21 PM
Huh...wow...lots of information here. :D

Not sure I can add much, but:

I've owned 3 Moritaka knives...all ordered direct from the maker. At least one of them had the issue being discussed here today. I've also seen Nenox knives with the issue....seen Takeda knives with the issue, seen $1,500 custom made knives with the issue, seen more than a few of Carter's with the issue (all from his SFGZ series mind you), seen my fair share of knives sharpened by people that had the issue caused by their sharpening (push too hard in one spot near the edge of the stone for too long and see what happens), etc. Point is, this is not an issue confined to Moritaka. That's it's disproportionate in the Moritaka's is a shame and something to be concerned about for sure.

Also, Takeda, the knives everyone is saying are the option to the Moritaka's...but are twice the price...well, there was a stint there where people wouldn't buy them either....they were avoided like the plaque. Bent blades, edges that you could move around with your finger (that was my knife), wavy edges, warped blades, highly inconsistent KU finish.

mateo
06-06-2011, 05:41 PM
Here's the best photo I can muster at the moment :P It's the steak knife against a straight edge, with the knife spine being the "highest" point in the photo (i.e. you can't really see it because it's out of focus) and the light coming through is because of the overgrind.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/90BOR8Cn3AekaMBd72e15rEa17M-0Btm2EuMrClj0_E?feat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/90BOR8Cn3AekaMBd72e15rEa17M-0Btm2EuMrClj0_E?feat=directlink

Eamon Burke
06-06-2011, 06:19 PM
As for creating one by hand, I know a guy who pushes REALLY hard on a 320 grit stone and leaves his knife like that. It's not sharp, it's just a suisin, so it cuts when it's dull. Plus he puts the whole flat of the blade on the stone, so it's paper thin and as tall as a suji by now.

Anyways, it's wavy as all getout, but just like Akiko said, he does a kind of drag along the board, so he doesn't really care.

That answer saddens me. Overgrinds happen, and they are hard enough to detect that you can't catch them all if you are putting out high volume, but to accept an uneven HT, overgrinds, etc as just "part of being handmade" is silly to me. I doubt Iizuka san would agree with him.

Dave Martell
05-23-2012, 04:01 PM
I wonder how long will this go on - how many more people I'll have to disappoint with the news that their knife is no good? How long will these knives continue to be sold here?

As you might be able to guess I just got another bad one in where I had to tell another customer that I can't work on his knife. Another $150 down the crapper for the customer.....another $150 in the bank for the vendor.



Still wondering how long this will go on for......got two more here.....two more losses for customers and two more profits for the seller & maker. I'm so friggin sick of this sh*t!

Dave Martell
05-23-2012, 04:26 PM
Here's the one of the two that will photograph some of the issues....now try to dispute this....


http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7406&d=1337804766

Dave Martell
05-23-2012, 04:28 PM
IMO, any e-tailer selling this crap either A) knows NOTHING about kitchen knives or B) is an outright swindler

Dave Martell
05-23-2012, 04:28 PM
As for the maker - they just suck ass

Mike Davis
05-23-2012, 04:31 PM
Dave, tell us how you really feel. Sorry to see you guys are having such an issue with these....

Crothcipt
05-23-2012, 04:36 PM
so going into a new business you can buy all the junked ones, melt them down and make a new one.:clown:

Dave Martell
05-23-2012, 04:37 PM
so going into a new business you can buy all the junked ones, melt them down and make a new one.:clown:


I could....one customer (just today) (not the above knife owner though) told me to throw his knife in the trash.

WildBoar
05-23-2012, 05:06 PM
The heart, Dave -- watch the heart!

Dave Martell
05-23-2012, 05:34 PM
The heart, Dave -- watch the heart!


I know....I'm feeling the BP rise

tk59
05-24-2012, 12:44 AM
I'd like to see one of these junkers in person.

ThEoRy
05-24-2012, 01:02 AM
That's just sloppy as all hell right there. I've never ground a knife before but I care about the work I do. Even on my first try it would be 1000 times better than that ****. I couldn't sleep at night if the work I did that day was unsatisfactory to my own worst critic. Myself.

tk59
05-24-2012, 01:29 AM
Yeah. I've ground a few knives now. I would have given up if I couldn't do better than that, lol.

ifor
05-24-2012, 12:57 PM
That was me!!!
I got it at *cough cough* togo.com

I am going to send him an email and buy something from elsewhere.

dav
05-24-2012, 01:10 PM
I've got 2 Moritaka knives and both are fine but it amazes me that if indeed this is so widespread why with all this bad publicity doesn't the maker take note. I'm aware that Moritaka has provided an "explanation" but surely they will find this affects their sales eventually or perhaps not. I found that they are still a recognised swordsmith (they are listed) so I'm guessing someone knows how to make a knife I just can' t understand their complacency. One of my knives is a Damascus Gyuto and fit and finish is very good, grind etc... spot on, Dave have you found any of the Moritaka Damascus knives have this problem as I'm presuming these are their "better" products?

Dave Martell
05-24-2012, 01:21 PM
I've got 2 Moritaka knives and both are fine but it amazes me that if indeed this is so widespread why with all this bad publicity doesn't the maker take note. I'm aware that Moritaka has provided an "explanation" but surely they will find this affects their sales eventually or perhaps not. I found that they are still a recognised swordsmith (they are listed) so I'm guessing someone knows how to make a knife I just can' t understand their complacency. One of my knives is a Damascus Gyuto and fit and finish is very good, grind etc... spot on, Dave have you found any of the Moritaka Damascus knives have this problem as I'm presuming these are their "better" products?


I've only had one bad experience with a damascus Moritaka (a kamagata usuba). I was asked to thin the blade as it was thick above the bevel (about 1/2") up and while doing this the core delaminated/separated from the cladding and popped a 2-3" long section out that was 1/2" deep from the edge. Upon inspection I could see that there was only 1/2" of AS core steel inserted into the cladding - it did not extend up into the blade beyond this point. Later, a member posted YouTube videos showing how Moritaka inserts these core steel bits into the cladding and this shed light on the subject, it looks like they use very little expensive steel (which is OK and quite normal) but don't forge it through to the spine as others do.

Anyway, I can't completely blame them for this as it's possible that I ground the knife too thin and caused the delamination but it does occur to me that I've never had this happen with any other maker before or since so.....

JBroida
05-24-2012, 01:25 PM
if people are making knives, i promise you they are not making swords (in any real capacity)

*in reference to Japan with regard to traditional work

mikemac
05-24-2012, 01:29 PM
.....why...doesn't the maker take note.....?

To me, why the maker does what the maker does is irrelavent. Back when I [had money, and...] bought my Carter, my Watanabe, etc. Moritaka was non existant. They had no market pressence or penetration among "us" Knife knuts on the forums. So whatever sales are coming thru the various forum pipelines are just additional gravey for him

What has really really puzzled me is why....WHY someone would buy one of those knives knowing there is at least some kind of issue with them. The controversy of all other knife makers combined - including Cutco - doesn't come close to the debate, difference of opinion and controversy of moritaka.

dav
05-24-2012, 01:30 PM
Well its quite off putting for me (and I guess many others) as asthetically I like the rustic look and the knives I have are easy to sharpen, retain their edges well and cut well. Although I seem to have been OK it will affect any future purchase for me with regards this maker. I still can't believe that they won't take note and realise that with this growing poor reputation in time sales will be affected. Marketing wise once the damage is done even if QC improves it will be much harder to turn around.

Dave Martell
05-24-2012, 01:32 PM
Yeah they're sword making connection is a shtick based off of previous generations having actually done this work. They love using this to add to their hype. Every time they get a westerner in their shop they put them in front of banner and have them hold a sword and smile while they shoot pictures - it's all play.

Eamon Burke
05-24-2012, 01:34 PM
I don't understand the reasoning behind "takes and holds and edge well".

Of course they do, they are Aogami Super. Lots of Japanese brands do great heat treating Aogami Super. A Dojo Gyuto is AS and it's $80. I wonder what the HT is like on those.

Dave Martell
05-24-2012, 01:37 PM
Well its quite off putting for me (and I guess many others) as asthetically I like the rustic look and the knives I have are easy to sharpen, retain their edges well and cut well. Although I seem to have been OK it will affect any future purchase for me with regards this maker. I still can't believe that they won't take note and realise that with this growing poor reputation in time sales will be affected. Marketing wise once the damage is done even if QC improves it will be much harder to turn around.


Hey if your knives are working good for you and they sharpen up with no issues then cool - no worries, I wouldn't get put off in your case.

BTW, years ago while discussing this matter with a future Moritaka e-tailer (I was disclosing what I know about the knives) I was told by this Moritaka e-tailer, "Well you know Dave, there really isn't a problem unless the customer knows about it". Yup - true story folks

dav
05-24-2012, 01:39 PM
I'm sure they aren't Jon although Fujiwara is another. Moritaka were making swords until relatively recently and the current elder Moritaka is still a listed swordsmith, I'm obviously not knowledgeable in this area but for the life of me can't understand that a maker whom represents a solid family reputation is producing products it seems at best of variable quality. Mike whether the trade he/they get via "foreign" forums is of much importance or not eventually even their main market will desert them as I'm sure its a competitive area and their are certainly other offerings at a similar price point (Japan or where ever their main market is) who seem to be more consistent around QC, or maybe its a question of Moritaka sending all their seconds (or thirds and fourths lol) to the US!

Eamon other than me spelling "an" wrong all I was doing was stating the obvious (to me) I'm sure others do too its just I like or liked the combination of the rustic/kuro-uchi appearance and general performance I'm getting from these knives. Oh well in my search for great British knives I'm finding the resurgence of the little mesters and some new makers who are producing some lovely hand made sheffield knives maybe I'll stop buying Japanese altogether!

JBroida
05-24-2012, 01:49 PM
my wife's family is close friends with a very well know swordsmith... he and i have had a number of talks about this. Last time, he mentioned how a number of knifemakers come to be judged with regard to their swordmaking so they can get the qualification. Besides saying they werent good at all, he made a point of asking some why they were going through the trouble of becoming certified as a swordmaker to which they replied, "so i can sell more knives"

that that for what its worth

Dave Martell
05-24-2012, 01:56 PM
This maker will always sell because of the price point/bang for buck appeal hits just right and because problems often don't appear right away, they don't show until after you've used the knife for awhile, a repair is needed, or sharpening has occurred which all leave them blameless. Couple this with retailers who are bottom line driven and the problem just goes on and on because they (the retailers) have no incentive to address the problems with the maker. Also, and unfortunately, most of these knives are purchased by newer Japanese knife users who have no idea what they're looking at and even when older more experienced users purchase them they don't want to see what they know is likely there. I see 7 out of 10 (at least) Moritaka knives with overgrinds so what would make me think that this doesn't represent what's floating around out there?

Maybe we need to get an attorney to gather up all the bad knives and send them back to these retailers for repair, replacement, or refund? I bet that'd be one hell of a box full if I inspected them to qualify. LOL :D

Dave Martell
05-24-2012, 02:03 PM
..... he made a point of asking some why they were going through the trouble of becoming certified as a swordmaker to which they replied, "so i can sell more knives"



:D

dav
05-24-2012, 02:12 PM
I'm sure your right Dave maybe I'll be lucky who knows maybe not, but I guess with the limited amount of time I'll use any knife and my relative lack of skill in the kitchen I'm probably one of the guys you are talking about. I will be trying different makers in time but even from my position this maker has lost at least a few more sales, and I'm sure many others so in time it will add up I'm sure. We live in a small world where anyone who is English speaking searching for Moritaka is likely to come up with a post around these quality issues so I'm guessing in time it will hurt their sales. I've experienced the excellent service from Shinichi Watanabe and am sure that there are many others like him. Me I would want to take pride in anything I do, I was a tradesman and prided myself in the quality of my work so just can't understand this whole situation. If I produced or did some work for someone and came up with substandard work 9which I have never done) I'd deal with it/put it right as I'd be too embarrassed to put my name to it let alone carry on doing the same thing.

Marko Tsourkan
05-24-2012, 02:14 PM
That's just sloppy as all hell right there. I've never ground a knife before but I care about the work I do. Even on my first try it would be 1000 times better than that ****. I couldn't sleep at night if the work I did that day was unsatisfactory to my own worst critic. Myself.

I am like that too. I too can't sleep sometimes, if I know that I need to improve.

It is very hard not to notice junk around you, if your preference are hard wired that way.


M

ThEoRy
05-24-2012, 10:18 PM
I am like that too. I too can't sleep sometimes, if I know that I need to improve.

It is very hard not to notice junk around you, if your preference are hard wired that way.


M

Some people are content with being mediocre. I knew students in high school who were happy just getting all C's. If I got a B I would torture myself.

It was difficult in my transition to becoming a manager because I couldn't for the life of me understand that other people don't hold themselves to as high a standard of perfection as I do myself. I just couldn't fathom the idea that being "just good enough" was ok for some. I just couldn't even conceive that was possible. "They have to demand perfection of themselves right?" "That's how I feel about myself and work ethic so it must be how they feel too right?" I was projecting my own feelings onto others when I thought about their output and production. I had to actually be told, "No, they don't think like you, they don't feel like you, they're not you, that's why you are their manager now." And "Some people are happy just being a C." It was difficult to grasp but I get it now. Like you said Marko, guys like us are just wired different.

You either got it or you don't. In my book, Moritaka doesn't have it.

steeley
05-25-2012, 01:54 AM
very interesting thanks for sharing

richinva
05-25-2012, 09:20 AM
Is this limited to a particular style of knife or is it across the board?

jayhay
05-25-2012, 04:19 PM
I don't understand the reasoning behind "takes and holds and edge well".

Of course they do, they are Aogami Super. Lots of Japanese brands do great heat treating Aogami Super. A Dojo Gyuto is AS and it's $80. I wonder what the HT is like on those.

I have a Dojo Nakiri that cost about $80. It's 5-6 years old and I use it everyday in a pro kitchen. It's the best knife I've ever owned. Wicked shard and holds an edge FOREVER. It's why I want another, but now, fully carbon knife. After buying many "wrong" knives when I had cash, I'm now trying to buy the right knife with relatively little $.

Whenever someone talks about Dojo's, I want to show 'em some love.

Dave Martell
05-25-2012, 04:33 PM
UPDATE>

I heard that the etailer was contacted regarding this crap-O-rific knife and has agreed to accept it for return. I hope that it finds it's way back to the maker vs back on the shelf for sale.

mhlee
05-25-2012, 04:39 PM
The most troubling thing to me is that it's a Japanese company that is doing this. The reputation of Japanese manufacturers for building the best quality items was earned over years and is a reflection of the culture - dedication, hard work, repetition leads to success.

The fact that Moritaka blows off such significant problems as part of being "hand made" is a cop out. Minor problems are acceptable. Significant ones should never be. But, I can say that I've corresponded with other vendors and they've used the same reason.

Eamon Burke
05-25-2012, 04:41 PM
Eamon other than me spelling "an" wrong all I was doing was stating the obvious (to me) I'm sure others do too its just I like or liked the combination of the rustic/kuro-uchi appearance and general performance I'm getting from these knives. Oh well in my search for great British knives I'm finding the resurgence of the little mesters and some new makers who are producing some lovely hand made sheffield knives maybe I'll stop buying Japanese altogether!

I hope that didn't come off as combative towards you. You are not at all the first person I've heard that from, and not just about Moritakas. I just feel like if you have a professional Japanese kitchen knife maker who is using such a well-known and oft-used steel like Aogami Super, you shouldn't be impressed if it performs as expected, and AS is considered by many to be the best blade steel in the world. It'd be like getting a knife from an ABS MasterSmith in 1095 and primarily liking the knife for it's edge-taking. Duh. It's 1095. You didn't pay for edge taking, the knife has to go beyond that to be worth any more than an Old Hickory.

Know what I mean?

These knives just don't scream "bargain" to me. I remember considering them a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away when I was buying my first good knives. They were my "pricey" consideration.

sudsy9977
05-25-2012, 05:10 PM
my guessis the crap o rific is sharpened by an expert and returned to the customer unsuspectingly......ryan

mpukas
05-25-2012, 05:15 PM
I've heard from a reputable source that shall not be named that this problem occurs with other makers. It's not something unique to Moritaka, but maybe more frequent.

My take on it, and I don't know exactly how they make and grind their knives, is that they use a particular grinding method and/or tool(s), that other makers use as well, that if not done properly can lead to over-grinding. Moritaka really make price-point products in the realm of Japanese knives, particularly for AS, and they can only "afford" to put so much time and skill into their knives. You get what you pay for. It's a crap shoot - maybe you get a good one, maybe you don't. I love my 150 petty. Never touch my 270 kiri-gyuto - stupid knife IMO.

Dave Martell
05-25-2012, 05:28 PM
my guessis the crap o rific is sharpened by an expert and returned to the customer unsuspectingly......ryan


If I had to place a bet on what will happen with this knife I'd use past history as my ace in the hole and my bet would be that it'll be used as an example of how this isn't a problem and how I'm picking on Moritaka and how it can be fixed (even though it isn't a problem)....blah blah blah.... On and yeah it'll be the first time they ever heard of this (non) problem... :yap:

maxim
05-25-2012, 05:48 PM
wow man on that Nakiri ovregrind is very huge, nothing that i have seen before :eyebrow:
I must say in that price point something like this should never happen !!
But as it was mentioned before Moritaka is not primerly knife makers but gardening or country blacksmiths, so maybe edge straightness is not so important for them :)

kalaeb
05-25-2012, 06:17 PM
You guys are killing me. I was going to sell my Moritaka KS, but my re-sale value goes down every time this comes up. J/K, that is probably one of the best examples of an overgrind I have ever seen. Thanks for posting it.

mhenry
05-25-2012, 07:13 PM
I'll buy it





You guys are killing me. I was going to sell my Moritaka KS, but my re-sale value goes down every time this comes up. J/K, that is probably one of the best examples of an overgrind I have ever seen. Thanks for posting it.

sachem allison
05-25-2012, 11:02 PM
You guys are killing me. I was going to sell my Moritaka KS, but my re-sale value goes down every time this comes up. J/K, that is probably one of the best examples of an overgrind I have ever seen. Thanks for posting it.

ain't got no money, but I'll trade you for it. that's how I get most of my knives.lol you'd be amazed at the kinds of things people are willing to trade for( suji, paring knife). lol

kalaeb
05-26-2012, 12:33 AM
ain't got no money, but I'll trade you for it. that's how I get most of my knives.lol you'd be amazed at the kinds of things people are willing to trade for( suji, paring knife). lol

That must have been a heck of a trade. Those knives are beautiful, next time I am in NY I will have to ring you to check them out.

Dave Martell
05-26-2012, 09:21 AM
my guessis the crap o rific is sharpened by an expert and returned to the customer unsuspectingly......ryan


Well it appears that the crap-O-rific is NOT headed to the maker or even the etailer for that matter...it's headed to Shillfly (AKA Mr Knife Fanatic) instead.

Why???

Well Shillfly works for the etailer and just started sharpening so my guess is what here??? Yeeeeyah :D

sachem allison
05-26-2012, 10:37 AM
That must have been a heck of a trade. Those knives are beautiful, next time I am in NY I will have to ring you to check them out.

They won't be here, They are a gift to an old friend.

Dave Martell
05-26-2012, 10:42 AM
Sorry to get so negative here folks. This is just an old issue for me that gets tiring to deal with. In the end my hopes are simply that the users of these knives get a good product and happy use.

Marko Tsourkan
05-26-2012, 10:50 AM
Well, that knife can be fixed, EASILY.

I would start with removing 1/8 or so on the edge, keeping the original profile. That should get me to a thickness on the edge that will allow me to regrind the bevels and remove overgrinds.

Next, grind in new bevels. Now, I have to do something with the new mid-section thickness, as the knife is less tall and overall thickness hasn't changed. I need to thin and thinning has likely to be done down from the spine - there goes that nice KU finish and the maker's mark.

Hand thinning the edge to blend into the new geometry.

Finishing (machine or hand).

So, after about 3 hours or work (about the same time it takes me to grind a knife), I would end up with a fixed knife, without holes in the edge, dropped heel or over-grinds on the bevels. Plus it will be shiny and clean - no more KU. It will also be 1/8 less tall.

The cost of the service - $150 ($200 if I do a hand-rubbed finish)

Send them over, folks.

M

PS: I am joking about offering this service, btw. By the process is accurate.

Taz575
05-26-2012, 10:56 AM
This problem isn't limited to knives in terms of the manufacturers ignoring problems. I had the same issue with Glock handguns where they got a bad batch of steel and the frame rails were shearing off randomly. It was a non issue and they replaced the frame, but they never came out with it. If people had an issue, they would replace the frame for free, but they never did a recall or notice to owners or anything. They also had issues with their .40 cal pistols when LEO's used a light on the rail; guns jamming or not cycling at all from the weight, etc. Again, never really acknowledged, new generations of the Glocks were supposed to fix it. Springfield Armory had a series of issues with their M1A rifles and the scope mount groove on the left hand side of the receiver being way undersized to what the specs called for and no scope mounts would securely lock in properly. I went to a local manufacturer of scope mounts to show them the issue and they figured out an inspection gauge kit so people could tell if their receiver was in or out of spec and get dimensions so the mount company could custom machine the mount to fit their rifle. Again, it was a widespread issue over a 10,000# serial number range IIRC, if not more, and was never acknowledged by the manufacturer and they were very slow to correct it.

Many places are letting the customer do the QC and only fixing it if someone notices the issue and complains. Sucks, but that's the way many places run their business now.

I got a fillet knife kit and the blade had at least 3 big dips per side that were basically overgrinds all the way down to the edge from the spine. Major oopsies on the grinds on that blade!! I wonder if the overgrinds are caused when the grind is started and stopped, or their holding jig slips or something?? I have seen the videos where the blade gets clamped into a big wooden (looks like wood) block that they hold when they grind, or if it is from the forging process where it was thinned too much and then ground even thinner in that spot?

bieniek
05-26-2012, 02:14 PM
Well it appears that the crap-O-rific is NOT headed to the maker or even the etailer for that matter...it's headed to Shillfly (AKA Mr Knife Fanatic) instead.

Why???

Well Shillfly works for the etailer and just started sharpening so my guess is what here??? Yeeeeyah :D

Yeah but he is from southeast Louisiana, and they do A LOT cooking down there

:stinker:

EdipisReks
05-26-2012, 10:15 PM
Well, that knife can be fixed, EASILY.

I would start with removing 1/8 or so on the edge, keeping the original profile. That should get me to a thickness on the edge that will allow me to regrind the bevels and remove overgrinds.

Next, grind in new bevels. Now, I have to do something with the new mid-section thickness, as the knife is less tall and overall thickness hasn't changed. I need to thin and thinning has likely to be done down from the spine - there goes that nice KU finish and the maker's mark.

Hand thinning the edge to blend into the new geometry.

Finishing (machine or hand).

So, after about 3 hours or work (about the same time it takes me to grind a knife), I would end up with a fixed knife, without holes in the edge, dropped heel or over-grinds on the bevels. Plus it will be shiny and clean - no more KU. It will also be 1/8 less tall.

The cost of the service - $150 ($200 if I do a hand-rubbed finish)

Send them over, folks.

M

PS: I am joking about offering this service, btw. By the process is accurate.

i'd be happy to do it for $100 ($150 with handed rubbed finish) if a bottle of Highland Park 25 is thrown in...

labor of love
05-26-2012, 10:39 PM
Yeah but he is from southeast Louisiana, and they do A LOT cooking down there

:stinker:

What southeast Louisiana have to do with anything?

mhlee
05-26-2012, 11:24 PM
I think all that Bieniek is saying is that because they do a lot of cooking down there, of course he knows how to sharpen and fix a knife.

mr drinky
05-26-2012, 11:58 PM
At least the spine looks straight on that nakiri ;)

k.

bieniek
05-27-2012, 04:09 AM
What southeast Louisiana have to do with anything?


....works for the etailer and just started sharpening ...



Being from Southeast Louisiana, we do a lot of cooking down here. Everything from chicken, to fish, to pork, to beef, and the famous "holy trio" of veggies, our knives get used all the time. Never a dull moment down here, I feel your knives should experience the same spice and flair.



Thanks Mhlee

mpukas
05-28-2012, 03:26 PM
Well it appears that the crap-O-rific is NOT headed to the maker or even the etailer for that matter...it's headed to Shillfly (AKA Mr Knife Fanatic) instead.

Why???

Well Shillfly works for the etailer and just started sharpening so my guess is what here??? Yeeeeyah :D

His handle is Soulfly, not Shillfly. You bashed Sean a while ago by posting a vid he did of himself shaving w/ a knife (and that post may have mysteriously disappeared). Then in the controversy here from someone hacking his forum name and making troll posts on his behalf, you cleared up that mess and said he was welcome here. Now you're bashing him again. No wonder why Sean thinks this forum doesn't like him and he doesn't want to be a member here.

I wouldn't send one of my knives to Sean either - as I previsouly stated, for sharpening or fixing (I bought a 52100 Ultimatum but returned it becasue there were many things I didn't like about it, and the sharpening job was indeed terrible), but belittling him because he's a novice sharpener or his associations is not appropriate.

VoodooMajik
05-28-2012, 04:21 PM
Soo, from what I'm gathering this is an issue that happens with clad knives(primarily but not exclusively Moritaka)? I would imagine it's fixable with knives that are single pieces of steel?

Pensacola Tiger
05-28-2012, 04:24 PM
Soo, from what I'm gathering this is an issue that happens with clad knives(primarily but not exclusively Moritaka)? I would imagine it's fixable with knives that are single pieces of steel?

No, it is a function of poor grinding, and can happen to any knife, regardless of construction. And is not "fixable" in a monosteel knife, either.

Dave Martell
05-28-2012, 04:43 PM
His handle is Soulfly, not Shillfly. You bashed Sean a while ago by posting a vid he did of himself shaving w/ a knife (and that post may have mysteriously disappeared). Then in the controversy here from someone hacking his forum name and making troll posts on his behalf, you cleared up that mess and said he was welcome here. Now you're bashing him again. No wonder why Sean thinks this forum doesn't like him and he doesn't want to be a member here.

I wouldn't send one of my knives to Sean either - as I previsouly stated, for sharpening or fixing (I bought a 52100 Ultimatum but returned it becasue there were many things I didn't like about it, and the sharpening job was indeed terrible), but belittling him because he's a novice sharpener or his associations is not appropriate.


I doubt any post I made in the past has disappeared mysteriously but whatever....

So do I have a problem with this guy? Yeah sure I do, he's a fanboy and I hate that. I view guys like him no different than girls who go backstage at concerts to service the band. They get some perverse pleasure from making themselves out to be someone important by getting closer to the powers to be. He came into the community and started making product videos and was an instant YouTube expert. he knew that the retailer was using him but he played along anyway and I believe it's because he likes being used. I can't speculate why he likes it but the end result is that it got him noticed where he was nobody beforehand.

Please, this has nothing to do with him being a new sharpener and me disrespecting that, it's about me disliking this low base behavior he shows us that is derived from his associations. I made this very clear before and I'm saying it again now.

Even though I think all of this about him I still welcome the guy here IF he leaves his fanboy crap at the door.

I hope that you can see the difference between what you stated and my actual feelings on the subject.

NO ChoP!
05-28-2012, 05:06 PM
I find that everytime Moritaka grind issues arise, cktg is somehow always the brunt. Makes the real issue less credible....

I have no favour in any particular direction, but the constant bashing is stagnant....

Dave Martell
05-28-2012, 05:09 PM
I find that everytime Moritaka grind issues arise, cktg is somehow always the brunt. Makes the real issue less credible....

I have no favour in any particular direction, but the constant bashing is stagnant....


It's unfortunately true.....hey maybe that's because they sell these knives? Hmmmm......


EDIT - I'm not pointing a finger at CKTG specifically though (or at least I'm trying not to)....I'm pointing towards anyone who sells these knives because in my opinion you have to have a blind eye to let these issues pass.

mhlee
05-28-2012, 06:08 PM
I find that everytime Moritaka grind issues arise, cktg is somehow always the brunt. Makes the real issue less credible.... I have no favour in any particular direction, but the constant bashing is stagnant....


The main problem, IMHO, is that this is a customer service problem. From what I know, Moritaka does not have a US office. Consequently, the retailers that sell these products are the only people who can address any defects.

It is my understanding that in almost all states, a retailer is at least partially responsible any defective products it sells. And, in some states, a retailer can be held to be jointly and severally, i.e. 100% liable for any defective products they sell and it is the retailer's responsibility to seek any kind of contribution or indemnification from the manufacturer for any losses that it pays. A retailer always shares some responsibility for any defective products it sells.

Here's an analogy. Let's say one of your customers gets sick from a salad that you sell at your restaurant. Would you tell your customer, "Go talk to the guy who grew the lettuce?" Conversely, what if you were the guy who got sick from food at a restaurant? Would you accept that explanation?

I've had to confront retailers that I've bought defective or broken items from and it sucks to hear, "You need to talk directly to the manufacturer." Really??? I just dropped hundreds/thousands of dollars to buy something from you that you made money off of and then you're refusing to help me get it fixed or replace it and it becomes my responsibility to initiate, take all steps and deal with them to have something fixed/replaced?

Fact is, this is something that every retailer must deal with and accept; if they are willing to take the risk of selling items that it knows are likely to be defective, well then they're taking the risk of having to face complaints, lawsuits for that. And that's their business decision. But, they are, by law, liable for the defective products they sell.

As for people who knowingly by a Moritaka despite having knowledge of the defects, it's basically an assumption of risk. But, for those people who just see a White 2 cheap kurouchi gyuto or nakiri and say, "Hey, that's a great buy" and get a lemon, it's really unfortunate. They didn't know better and they end up going through the hassle of trying to return, get fixed, get a refund, etc. of a defective knife.

And, if you think that a retailer, in this case, c k t g, shouldn't bear the brunt of the blame, who should besides Moritaka? It's pretty clear Moritaka will just continue producing their knives just as they have in the past.

A retailer can tell Moritaka to improve their QC, and even threaten to stop selling their products. If a retailer has asked Moritaka to improve their QC and Moritaka refuses to, then a retailer has two options: stop selling Moritaka products, or assume the risk of selling potentially defective knives. And it appears that a certain retailer has chosen the latter.

And that's where the main problem seems to be now - customer service. In this case, c k t g is not a manufacturer and cannot (or won't) replace these defective knives with a new, non-defective item. So, fixes are being offered for these knives. Whether that's sufficient is up to the consumer.

But, as long as defective Moritaka knives are sold and bought, this topic will continue as it should. I mean, that's why we're all here, right? To learn about GOOD knives, and buy GOOD knives, not defective knives, right?

It's also not bashing if customers continue to have problems with the retailer or manufacturer of knives. Hell, there were recent threads about QC issues with Bill Burke's and Devin's knives. But, both manufacturers personally took it upon themselves and fix the issues - they didn't farm them out to other people. And for that, I certainly have gained A LOT of respect for Bill and Devin because they are taking it upon themselves to deal directly with consumers in the event that issues arise. Hopefully, for them, selling direct to us has been a financial benefit by not dealing with a middleman/retailer.

Personally, as a person who almost bought a Moritaka, but then read of all these problems, I am so flipping glad that I never did. I never will. And I have people like Dave, and threads like this, to keep me from buying bad knives.

But, if the goal is to protect buyers from buying Moritaka knives, then maybe disgruntled buyers will start "www.moritakaknivessuck.com."

labor of love
05-28-2012, 06:21 PM
Ok. So return your moritaka to mark then. He never said he wouldn't accept returns. I've yet to hear a single person here explain to mark their moritaka has a screwed up grind and they want a refund.

sudsy9977
05-28-2012, 06:47 PM
Ok. So return your moritaka to mark then. He never said he wouldn't accept returns. I've yet to hear a single person here explain to mark their moritaka has a screwed up grind and they want a refund.


i bought amoritaka from mark and sent it directly to dave to check first.....it was a clunker and he had no problem returning it.....thats notreally the point though if u ask me.....ryan

Dave Martell
05-28-2012, 06:49 PM
Ok. So return your moritaka to mark then. He never said he wouldn't accept returns. I've yet to hear a single person here explain to mark their moritaka has a screwed up grind and they want a refund.




I know for a fact that tons of people (that I've dealt with who have Moritaka knife issues) have contacted their retailer (that sold them their Moritaka knife) and that each time they were told that they were the first person who has ever brought this to their attention. In some cases refunds/exchanges were offered. In almost all cases these people did not report anything on the internet.

Dave Martell
05-28-2012, 06:54 PM
i bought amoritaka from mark and sent it directly to dave to check first.....it was a clunker and he had no problem returning it.....thats notreally the point though if u ask me.....ryan


Something worth noting in your case is that we wanted the knife to be good. I was still on speaking terms with Mark and didn't relish the idea of getting involved with a mess with him and you wanted this knife because it seemed to be a good deal and it was to fill a hole in your kit.

The problem with this particular knife was very small compared to most, however, it was indicative of the larger potential problem that is seen to develop over time as a hole in the edge which led you to decide on it's return - a wise decision.

labor of love
05-28-2012, 06:57 PM
i bought amoritaka from mark and sent it directly to dave to check first.....it was a clunker and he had no problem returning it.....thats notreally the point though if u ask me.....ryan

Well mhlee was arguing that the retailer is partially responsible, so whether or not he accepts returns kind of is the point.

mhlee
05-28-2012, 08:04 PM
That is part of my point.

But, my main point was that whether the resolution is repair, or return and refund, this thread is neither about a retailer having to take the brunt of criticism (which it or any other seller of goods should because any seller of goods, whether a retailer or manufacturer, is likely responsible under law for some damages, and possibly 100% of damages, to a consumer for selling a defective product) or whether this thread is bashing a retailer (it is not because it is raising a very important issue to the members here, i.e. a retailer continuing to sell knives that have a history of being defective).

The great thing about this forum is that criticism has not been censored and while, in this case, it is focused on one retailer in particular because the knife in question was bought from that retailer, other manufacturers have received criticism as well, including some of THE BEST here. Sorry.

Namaxy
05-28-2012, 08:39 PM
The main problem, IMHO, is that this is a customer service problem. From what I know, Moritaka does not have a US office. Consequently, the retailers that sell these products are the only people who can address any defects.

It is my understanding that in almost all states, a retailer is at least partially responsible any defective products it sells. And, in some states, a retailer can be held to be jointly and severally, i.e. 100% liable for any defective products they sell and it is the retailer's responsibility to seek any kind of contribution or indemnification from the manufacturer for any losses that it pays. A retailer always shares some responsibility for any defective products it sells.

Here's an analogy. Let's say one of your customers gets sick from a salad that you sell at your restaurant. Would you tell your customer, "Go talk to the guy who grew the lettuce?" Conversely, what if you were the guy who got sick from food at a restaurant? Would you accept that explanation?

I've had to confront retailers that I've bought defective or broken items from and it sucks to hear, "You need to talk directly to the manufacturer." Really??? I just dropped hundreds/thousands of dollars to buy something from you that you made money off of and then you're refusing to help me get it fixed or replace it and it becomes my responsibility to initiate, take all steps and deal with them to have something fixed/replaced?

Fact is, this is something that every retailer must deal with and accept; if they are willing to take the risk of selling items that it knows are likely to be defective, well then they're taking the risk of having to face complaints, lawsuits for that. And that's their business decision. But, they are, by law, liable for the defective products they sell.

As for people who knowingly by a Moritaka despite having knowledge of the defects, it's basically an assumption of risk. But, for those people who just see a White 2 cheap kurouchi gyuto or nakiri and say, "Hey, that's a great buy" and get a lemon, it's really unfortunate. They didn't know better and they end up going through the hassle of trying to return, get fixed, get a refund, etc. of a defective knife.

And, if you think that a retailer, in this case, c k t g, shouldn't bear the brunt of the blame, who should besides Moritaka? It's pretty clear Moritaka will just continue producing their knives just as they have in the past.

A retailer can tell Moritaka to improve their QC, and even threaten to stop selling their products. If a retailer has asked Moritaka to improve their QC and Moritaka refuses to, then a retailer has two options: stop selling Moritaka products, or assume the risk of selling potentially defective knives. And it appears that a certain retailer has chosen the latter.

And that's where the main problem seems to be now - customer service. In this case, c k t g is not a manufacturer and cannot (or won't) replace these defective knives with a new, non-defective item. So, fixes are being offered for these knives. Whether that's sufficient is up to the consumer.

But, as long as defective Moritaka knives are sold and bought, this topic will continue as it should. I mean, that's why we're all here, right? To learn about GOOD knives, and buy GOOD knives, not defective knives, right?

It's also not bashing if customers continue to have problems with the retailer or manufacturer of knives. Hell, there were recent threads about QC issues with Bill Burke's and Devin's knives. But, both manufacturers personally took it upon themselves and fix the issues - they didn't farm them out to other people. And for that, I certainly have gained A LOT of respect for Bill and Devin because they are taking it upon themselves to deal directly with consumers in the event that issues arise. Hopefully, for them, selling direct to us has been a financial benefit by not dealing with a middleman/retailer.

Personally, as a person who almost bought a Moritaka, but then read of all these problems, I am so flipping glad that I never did. I never will. And I have people like Dave, and threads like this, to keep me from buying bad knives.

But, if the goal is to protect buyers from buying Moritaka knives, then maybe disgruntled buyers will start "www.moritakaknivessuck.com."

I'd like to agree with Mike on this....specifically that it's a customer service issue. I'm new to this world of high end knives, but I'm not young and I'm not new to buying specialty products. It's clear after being here a little less than two months that there is a lot of bad blood between e-vendors, producers and third party service people. Seems like people have taken sides ......you could almost call it old forum vs. new forum. I haven't been around long enough to know where everyone stands, and as a consumer, I'm not sure I really care. This may sound crass, but I joined these forums to try to learn about the craft, make better purchasing decisions, and eventually contribute to a subject i care a lot about. I don't want to be forced to pick a side.....and if I have either a positive or a negative customer service experience to share, I'd like to be able to do so without recourse or getting labeled as pro one side or the other.

NO ChoP!
05-28-2012, 08:43 PM
Mhlee, I'm sorry, but the above makes little sense...Your main point was what it's not????

I do not agree that other manufacturers have received like criticism. No one called Devin or Bill any names, nor tormented their supporters. Apples and watermelons...

Would I personally continue to sell a product that had quality control issues? Probably not... honestly, thus far I haven't heard much outside from Dave having issues; Dave being the arch nemesis of said retailer....

I stand by the many Moritakas I own, have sharpened and have seen through my kitchen and in the hands of friends; are they perfect, nope. Is a Carter? Far, far, faaar from it.

NO ChoP!
05-28-2012, 08:45 PM
""""there is a lot of bad blood between e-vendors, producers and third party service people. Seems like people have taken sides ......you could almost call it old forum vs. new forum. I haven't been around long enough to know where everyone stands, and as a consumer, I'm not sure I really care. This may sound crass, but I joined these forums to try to learn about the craft, make better purchasing decisions, and eventually contribute to a subject i care a lot about. I don't want to be forced to pick a side.....and if I have either a positive or a negative customer service experience to share, I'd like to be able to do so without recourse or getting labeled as pro one side or the other."""""



AMEN....

jaybett
05-28-2012, 11:28 PM
A while back, a forum member sent a Moritaka to Dave. It had the hole and over grind issues. The member contacted Moritaka. It took a few e-mails, before Moritaka understood the complaint. They acknowledged the issues, but that was the cost, in order to sell a knife at a low price. Another forum member pointed out that people who worked in harsh environments, such as the fish markets, wanted inexpensive knives, and were willing to deal with issues.

What is puzzling, has been the vendors response to these issues. When Dave made a post about the limits of the three finger test, for sharpness. Murray Carter responded with a strong post on his website about the benefits of the three finger test. I thought it was a good debate.

Enough people besides Dave have reported the issue, so it is a legitimate concern. While it may be risky, I think that it would a good idea for the vendor to acknowledge the issue and then explain what steps are being taken to ensure that the customer does not get a defective knife. One vendor acknowledged a problem with Aritsugu, and offered a solution. Why not do the same with Moritaka?

Currently it seems vendors are taking the mistakes do happen approach, and if there is a problem, the knife can be returned. In general this is true, but in the case of Moritaka a pattern has developed. Another problem is this isn't an issue, that is easy to spot. It may take a year or longer, before it becomes apparent. Will a vendor take back a knife after a year or two of use?

Jay

mhlee
05-28-2012, 11:28 PM
Mhlee, I'm sorry, but the above makes little sense...Your main point was what it's not????

I do not agree that other manufacturers have received like criticism. No one called Devin or Bill any names, nor tormented their supporters. Apples and watermelons...

Would I personally continue to sell a product that had quality control issues? Probably not... honestly, thus far I haven't heard much outside from Dave having issues; Dave being the arch nemesis of said retailer....

I stand by the many Moritakas I own, have sharpened and have seen through my kitchen and in the hands of friends; are they perfect, nope. Is a Carter? Far, far, faaar from it.

What doesn't make sense about what I wrote? I think my main point was exactly what I wrote: the retailer should be primarily responsible for handling issues with defective products and, here, it's a customer service issue because (1) people have difficulty communicating directly with Moritaka or returning things directly, (2) Moritaka won't necessarily replace such knives and most importantly, (3) Moritaka is not in a position to offer a refund.

One of the things that wasn't so clear in my earlier post is that a manufacturer will not refund your money if you buy it from a retailer. That's a main reason why no one should have to deal directly with a manufacturer if there's a problem with a defective product. You'll never get a refund. Only a repair and maybe a replacement.

We have two very well respected knife sharpeners, one who also happens to make top quality knives, saying that Moritaka is seriously messed up. Other manufacturers don't receive such criticism because they either offer to fix them or replace them and such problems are less common. And, especially here, where makers deal directly with consumers, they are in a position to offer a refund.

I am extremely sensitive to the fact that there is bad blood between Dave and said retailer. But, my comment was not directed to "take a side." Far from it. I've bought knives from both Dave and Mark. And for what it's worth, the Carter I bought and the Carters that I've used don't have any problems coming close to that Moritaka.

labor of love
05-28-2012, 11:45 PM
I always assumed the majority of purchases of moritakas in the US were through the US retailer. Are their really that many people dealing directly with Moritaka? I still dont see why the US retailer should be held responsible for a transaction thats between customer and overseas knife company either. If you feel you need assistance with a potential refund or any other customer service/quality issues then you should make the purchase through a US retailer.

Dave Martell
05-28-2012, 11:58 PM
This thread has taken a turn for the better. I believe this is the most progressive discussion that's been had on this subject yet.

mhlee
05-29-2012, 12:08 AM
I always assumed the majority of purchases of moritakas in the US were through the US retailer. Are their really that many people dealing directly with Moritaka? I still dont see why the US retailer should be held responsible for a transaction thats between customer and overseas knife company either. If you feel you need assistance with a potential refund or any other customer service/quality issues then you should make the purchase through a US retailer.

I think that's one of the key facts here. Many of the transactions are going through US retailers. The customer service and remedies being offered by US retailers IS the issue.

labor of love
05-29-2012, 12:09 AM
honestly, if these issues are as constant as they seem to be I think after enough returns the retailer will make a move to either improve quality or discontinue carrying the product. It just wouldnt make sense to replace 10 percent of the knives you sell or whatever percentage it is. Thats the resolution that I hope for.

labor of love
05-29-2012, 12:13 AM
The customer service and remedies being offered by US retailers IS the issue.

Whats wrong with the customer service? Im pretty sure you can get a refund if you tell mark you have a grind issue. Am I missing something?

add
05-29-2012, 12:14 AM
honestly, if these issues are as constant as they seem to be I think after enough returns the retailer will make a move to either improve quality or discontinue carrying the product. It just wouldnt make sense to replace 10 percent of the knives you sell or whatever percentage it is. Thats the resolution that I hope for.

Apparently, at least at this pont, the cost/benefit ratio remains in favor of status quo...

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 12:19 AM
There's quite a profit margin in selling some knives, high enough that most people would be surprised at what's at stake here. I would bet that selling knives can be profitable even in a high return/failure rate situation.

I of course have no idea what deal anyone has with Moritaka so the above comment is just in general.

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 12:22 AM
Agreed. If we find issues, demand results. Period. Enough returns and anyone would be stupid to continue the sales.

Dave, no more throwing away knives...send them back.

mhlee
05-29-2012, 12:22 AM
""""there is a lot of bad blood between e-vendors, producers and third party service people. Seems like people have taken sides ......you could almost call it old forum vs. new forum. I haven't been around long enough to know where everyone stands, and as a consumer, I'm not sure I really care. This may sound crass, but I joined these forums to try to learn about the craft, make better purchasing decisions, and eventually contribute to a subject i care a lot about. I don't want to be forced to pick a side.....and if I have either a positive or a negative customer service experience to share, I'd like to be able to do so without recourse or getting labeled as pro one side or the other."""""



AMEN....

My previous analysis and comment is my own personal comment (1) based on the fact that it's obvious (just based on that one picture) that Moritaka knives can have serious problems and what people have written about their experiences as far as trying to get these issues fixed and (2) my own personal similar experiences with Mark when I had issues with two different knives that had defects. Without going into details, it was a very similar experience to what this Moritaka buyer (and other Moritaka buyers) faced; Mark told me to contact the manufacturer directly to have the issues fixed and never offered a refund. And that's why I chimed in. Because I personally experienced something similar and it was extremely negative.

Chris. I don't know you and I have no ill will toward you. But, don't lump me in with others just because my tone is not positive. In fact, this is the first time that I've publicly written about this experience.

It's quite clear that you got better service and products from Mark than me and I'm happy for you that you did and did not have to go through what I went through. I did not.

Since you agree that we should all be able to write about positive or negative customer experiences, the next time someone comments about issues with Mark, I hope you will reserve judgment until the facts come out.

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 12:24 AM
Dave, no more throwing away knives...send them back.


I've only thrown away ones that I got burnt on years ago (the ones I had to buy because I was stupid enough to sharpen them), all the ones since then are customer owned and get returned to them to do with what they will.

Eamon Burke
05-29-2012, 12:29 AM
honestly, if these issues are as constant as they seem to be I think after enough returns the retailer will make a move to either improve quality or discontinue carrying the product. It just wouldnt make sense to replace 10 percent of the knives you sell or whatever percentage it is. Thats the resolution that I hope for.

That sentiment is the key here--but the Manufacturer's standpoint.

Say you can drop the price point by $100-150 by having 1 in 1000 returned. They(Moritaka) have made it clear that this is not a big enough problem for their customer base. I doubt CKTG alone gets more than a few of these a year returned, and it's all guys here. What they(Moritaka) are banking on is having most of their knives come out right, and that when they don't, their customers either won't notice, or don't have a problem with a screwy edge. The trouble for those of us here is that they are right.

This seems to be a complex situation with a simple solution: don't buy one. If you care, don't buy one.
Moritaka isn't trying to change your mind or set a new standard of perfection, and they don't have to. You can't fault a retailer for doing it's job--offering things for sale that customers want to buy. If you buy one in good faith without knowing, later find a hole and it and now you hate your knife, take it back!

But if you do know about the chance it could be a bad one, and you care about it(like anyone reading this)...

...Buy a Zakuri or something--it's Kuro Uchi, AS, same price, made in Japan. Or a Tanaka, it's damascus-clad Blue steel and $100 less. There are other fish in the sea.

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 12:43 AM
Michael, honestly this is the first I've read of a knife not being accepted for a full refund. This is the type of information that should be shared. I understand peoples frustrations, but simply showing ones frustration without noted just cause isn't necessarily going to paint a proper picture for everyone reading these threads.

I have stated many times, I have no allegiance to Mark, other than the fact he lives in my state, and we have crossed paths a few times; always cordially mind you. I have no ill will towards him, or towards Dave. Infact, I'd like to take the moment to thank Dave for his hard work with the forum; obviously we are all very fond of this place...

It is not my intent to be cynical; and if there are issues they should be addressed. It is my plea to try to keep things professional; that is it. I quoted the above statement, because those are also my sentiments. I do not want to taint the forums. If I have added to this, than I apologize to all.

I've found myself many times in life sticking up for the underdog; it's my nature. If people bashed KKF I'd have my foot in their behind as well....

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 12:45 AM
+1 on Tanaka...have 4 newer in my possession and a new wa-R2 proto on the way. Good peeps.....

labor of love
05-29-2012, 12:53 AM
...Buy a Zakuri or something--it's Kuro Uchi, AS, same price, made in Japan.

yes. If Moritakas were cheaper then I would understand but Zakuri is way nicer. The handles rock and the kuro uchi is nicer. But Moritakas have a sight profile advantage in their gyutos profile IMO

add
05-29-2012, 01:03 AM
Mark told me to contact the manufacturer directly to have the issues fixed and never offered a refund...

At that point... town crier with a strong arm and big azz bell.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QR6pulhGX28/TraDc_1ISXI/AAAAAAAAAEY/z2VfW2rs6l8/s1600/Image+%253D+rye+town+Crier3as.JPG

chinacats
05-29-2012, 01:12 AM
yes. If Moritakas were cheaper then I would understand but Zakuri is way nicer. The handles rock and the kuro uchi is nicer. But Moritakas have a sight profile advantage in their gyutos profile IMO

+1 on Zakuri...great knife for the $

Sucks about the moritakas though as they really are beautiful knives...

mhlee
05-29-2012, 02:29 AM
Michael, honestly this is the first I've read of a knife not being accepted for a full refund. This is the type of information that should be shared. I understand peoples frustrations, but simply showing ones frustration without noted just cause isn't necessarily going to paint a proper picture for everyone reading these threads.

I have stated many times, I have no allegiance to Mark, other than the fact he lives in my state, and we have crossed paths a few times; always cordially mind you. I have no ill will towards him, or towards Dave. Infact, I'd like to take the moment to thank Dave for his hard work with the forum; obviously we are all very fond of this place...

It is not my intent to be cynical; and if there are issues they should be addressed. It is my plea to try to keep things professional; that is it. I quoted the above statement, because those are also my sentiments. I do not want to taint the forums. If I have added to this, than I apologize to all.

I've found myself many times in life sticking up for the underdog; it's my nature. If people bashed KKF I'd have my foot in their behind as well....

Chris:

Thanks for your explanation. Speaking for myself, I'd rather not get into the details of a complaint.

While I do understand that some people may have opinions based on rumor, hearsay, etc., and not actual personal experience, I know that others, like myself, simply do not want to have to elaborate on their personal complaints because they're negative and we're trying to keep things positive. And I think that most people here do not even criticize, let alone bash, retailers/makers unless there are real factual reasons. I think things of this nature have been generally well handled by the members. I certainly won't add, even if I've personally had bad experiences with a retailer/maker, unless I feel that my opinion will help elaborate or add to a discussion because (1) I'm not a professional cook/chef and (2) I simply don't have the experience that other members do as far as knives and sharpening, etc.

Nonetheless, going forward, I'm going to assume that people who have criticisms have legitimate criticisms. If I have questions about the reasons for such criticisms, I'll ask for a further explanation and basis for the criticism.

jaybett
05-29-2012, 02:46 AM
Obvious problems are easy to fix, a cracked handle, bent blade, broken tip. A hole in the edge, is not easy to find. Owning three Moritaka knives, I've looked the edges over, and cannot detect an issue. If I were to send the knives to Dave, I wouldn't be surprised, if he found problems with all of them. Holes in edges are typically discovered after a year or two of sharpening.

In the long run, I think it would be beneficial to a vendor to acknowledge the problem and then announce a two year warranty in case the knife develops a hole in the edge. Even with a hole, I doubt most people would return their knives. The vendor would be put into a good light.

Jay

mhlee
05-29-2012, 07:24 AM
My previous analysis and comment is my own personal comment (1) based on the fact that it's obvious (just based on that one picture) that Moritaka knives can have serious problems and what people have written about their experiences as far as trying to get these issues fixed and (2) my own personal similar experiences with Mark when I had issues with two different knives that had defects. Without going into details, it was a very similar experience to what this Moritaka buyer (and other Moritaka buyers) faced; Mark told me to contact the manufacturer directly to have the issues fixed and never offered a refund. And that's why I chimed in. Because I personally experienced something similar and it was extremely negative.

Chris. I don't know you and I have no ill will toward you. But, don't lump me in with others just because my tone is not positive. In fact, this is the first time that I've publicly written about this experience.

It's quite clear that you got better service and products from Mark than me and I'm happy for you that you did and did not have to go through what I went through. I did not.

Since you agree that we should all be able to write about positive or negative customer experiences, the next time someone comments about issues with Mark, I hope you will reserve judgment until the facts come out.

I will add that I eventually did receive a refund.

I sent the knife back on my own and at my own expense (with no assurance of receiving a refund) and sent an e-mail identifying the problems with the knife, the responses I received when I initially provided notice of the issues, and demanding a refund. Only then, did I receive an offer for a refund.

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 08:59 AM
Michael, may I ask what problems your particular knife had? Were they the same as Dave speaks of?

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 10:22 AM
I believe it should be noted, said problems were in fact not with the thread titled namesake, Moritaka...

But, the fact you still had issues with retailer over QC, is disparaging.

I would still like to hear of someone's exact issues pertaining to Moritakas and the dealings of CKTG, or I will go on record once again to call out a 20 + page thread with no basis....

Lefty
05-29-2012, 10:23 AM
I've tried to stay completely out of this, because mark has been nothing short of amazing to work with, in my experience and the same goes for Dave. I am definitely neutral in regards to the past issues, as I hope I can continue to be so.

However, in general, the retailer is responsible for dealing with issues regarding products they sell. I recently purchased a product that clearly was defective once I used it a few times. I contacted the retailer and the manufacturer, but made sure to let both parties know I had done so. The responses were very similar from both sides: The retailer was obligated to relplace my defective product (or money) and the manufacturer was to reimburse the seller of the goods. Long story short, the problem was quickly solved.

On another note, Mark has sold me some "seconds" for the Firehall, while making sure to drastically, and I mean drastically reduce the price AND make sure I knew exactly what the defect of each knife was. One of these knives ha a hole in the edge, which I was ok with. Let me tell you, a bunch of "regular guys" ha no idea there was an issue with the knife and it's currently "the best, and scariest friggin knife" any of them have used. I did put a little bit of time into it to remedy the problem, but realized it wasn't worth my time (sound familiar Dave?). I would have ha to lose at least an inch and a half of blade height to fix it. I didn't, there's a rise on the edge, towards the heel and it still does exactly what the average user wants it to do: cuts like a beast!

This problem is at least two-threefold -
Moritaka became well known by us, because their knives fit into a void that we needed filled. Perhaps the quality never was there, but they had already been crowned "Affordable, Rustic King" by many, before any of the problems arose.
These issues are real, the average purchaser will never sharpen a knife enough to hit the issue, and even if he does, he will likely assume it was a result of user error and hide the problem, due to embarrassment.
We need to discover a new maker to fill the void that Moritaka will undoubtedly leave (if people quit purchasing their knives). I, honestly hope that the Yamawaku Scott and I are sending around will open some eyes to what else is available. I also think that the Tanaka I got to use for a week or so, thanks to Don, was one of the nicer cutters I've used (minus the flat grind in spots) and Tanaka should be crowned.

It's kinda like when an athlete we all loved tests positive for steroids. We try to like them anywas, defend them, tell everyone that it can't be true, and eventually give in to the harsh realization that what we thought, never was. It sucks, but there are bigger and better athletes (makers) out there who got where they are legitimately.

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 10:32 AM
I guess my issue is this retailer has a no questions asked, money back guarantee. Out of many thousands of moritakas sold, very few have been returned. No more than any other brand, infact. So where is the motivation for him to say these knives as a whole, have problems? I know many who are overly content with there's. Does this mean I don't know anything? Well that's offensive....

Lefty
05-29-2012, 10:41 AM
Nope. I'd be hardpressed (if I could at all) to figure it out before it happened as well.

chinacats
05-29-2012, 10:44 AM
I guess my issue is this retailer has a no questions asked, money back guarantee. Out of many thousands of moritakas sold, very few have been returned. No more than any other brand, infact. So where is the motivation for him to say these knives as a whole, have problems? I know many who are overly content with there's. Does this mean I don't know anything? Well that's offensive....

Just curious as to how you know that there are no more than any other brand returned? Not trying to be rude, but when I returned a knife with horrible f&f (not moritaka) I was told that he hadn't seen any of these with problems...may have been true, but the knife was so bad that it shouldn't have been sold period, it should've been returned to manufacturer--along with a stern note that if anything like this showed up again they would be dropped...have a hard time believing that I got the only one that looked like ass...I think things just get passed on to the customer and if they complain, no problem, just give money back...most people don't know what they are buying and just assume the quality or lack thereof comes with the territory...I think Mark is a nice guy and stands behind his product, I also think that he gets the cheapest products that allow the most room for markup...more businessman than knife guy. All this said not to offend, but just to offer another viewpoint.

Edit just to add, there was no question return honored on this...

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 10:51 AM
Absolutely, and I agree with you fully. Actually, I had a discussion pertaining to moritakas with Mark, when I received my Moritaka ks...

I'd like to note the many times I have read people who have said, " I asked Koki to handpick me a good one" pertaining to Masamotos from JCK....

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 11:17 AM
Obviously, I am not familiar with your situation. The picture you've painted isn't a very nice one, and sucks you had to go through that. I think thus should be shared. It obviously bothered you, and your feelings should be relevant...

That being said...this thread is still about Moritaka, no?
Approaching 30 pages, and I've yet to hear one person claim to have dealt with said issues....

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 11:28 AM
I've had many customers who have been in similar situations with many different vendors and have shared with me that they don't (as a whole) complain to the retailers, make returns, and/or speak up on line (post) about problems they have encountered. I can't say why this is but my thoughts are that most people don't like to complain, get involved, or simply despise the notion of having to do so because it's a hassle or that they feel forced into dealing with a problem that they didn't create. Yes it's a "shame on them situation" for not taking the appropriate actions towards a remedy but that doesn't negate that the problems still existed and would be valid if brought into the light.

mhlee
05-29-2012, 11:43 AM
I believe it should be noted, said problems were in fact not with the thread titled namesake, Moritaka...

But, the fact you still had issues with retailer over QC, is disparaging.

I would still like to hear of someone's exact issues pertaining to Moritakas and the dealings of CKTG, or I will go on record once again to call out a 20 + page thread with no basis....


I believe it should be noted, said problems were in fact not with the thread titled namesake, Moritaka...

But, the fact you still had issues with retailer over QC, is disparaging.

I would still like to hear of someone's exact issues pertaining to Moritakas and the dealings of CKTG, or I will go on record once again to call out a 20 + page thread with no basis....

Chris:

Watch your words. You're using words that have legal meaning. And you're wrong.

My comments that started this noted that this was a customer service issue. I related my own customer service issue. Did I ever say that my comment was specifically Moritaka related? No. But is it was directly related at very similar business practices by the same retailer with respect to my purchase from said retailer.

We have threads that go off topic but stay related. I still feel that my comments were extremely relevant, given that I experienced the nearly identical response from the retailer that was identified. My comments are not disparaging toward Moritaka as I never said that I had a problem with a Moritaka. My comments were - as I previously mentioned multiple times in this thread - customer service related. Am I not allowed to post about a personal experience I had that was very similar to what was being talked about in connection with Moritakas?

Also, my personal experiences that were referenced in my comments and in my private messages to you. These are factually based and even conservative in how I described them. So there is no disparagement as you characterize it.

In fact, you telling me that my statements "is disparaging" is the definition of disparagement - you have no personal knowledge of any of the facts between my dealings with Mark, what happened, how rudely he spoke to me on two occasions and you are saying that what I wrote is "disparaging." And am I not allowed to discuss my own personal experiences? If such were the case, this forum would not exist.

And your position seems to be that because no one is commenting directly here that these issues don't exist. That's like saying because no one has proven there's life on other planets, it doesn't exist, or because tunas are still being caught, they're not going to to extinct, or because no one that personally saw a dinosaur, there never were dinosaurs even though other people have evidence of dinosaurs. And that's fine.

If you have any problem with what's being written about Moritakas, that's fine. But you have no basis to call my statements "disparaging" because I never said I had a bad Moritaka or anything to the extent that I've even personally seen a bad Moritaka. And I did not once say that I owned a Moritaka. But, my personal anecdotes and opinions are true, factually based experiences.

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 11:47 AM
Maybe we need to start a "Have you had a problem with XXXX retailer" thread?

bieniek
05-29-2012, 11:49 AM
Dave, that nakiri from the famous photo. Was the photo taken of a new blade? Or after how long being used?

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 11:50 AM
Reread it...I said your problems with quality control were disparaging. Not your comments. I was expressing sympathy towards you.

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 11:55 AM
Dave, that nakiri from the famous photo. Was the photo taken of a new blade? Or after how long being used?


The last one I took pictures of - crapOrific? That blade was used but never sharpened.

bieniek
05-29-2012, 11:57 AM
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7406&d=1337804766

This, yes? So it left the vendor with the edge that stright?

mhlee
05-29-2012, 11:57 AM
I guess my issue is this retailer has a no questions asked, money back guarantee. Out of many thousands of moritakas sold, very few have been returned. No more than any other brand, infact. So where is the motivation for him to say these knives as a whole, have problems? I know many who are overly content with there's. Does this mean I don't know anything? Well that's offensive....

First, a no questions asked, money back guarantee implies that even if a perfectly good item is returned without question, the purchase price will be refunded. I was not offered a refund even after notifying the retailer about two defects in the knife that I purchased. I only received a refund after I sent it back and demanded a refund.

Second, just because "thousands" (according to you) have been sold, and very few have been returned, does not mean that the problem does not exist or, as you put it, no more than any other brand. And, how do you know that Moritakas have no more problems than any other brand? It seems that you are extrapolating a conclusion based on your limited sample. And that's fine. But it may be incorrect by a large margin, e.g. millions of Ford Explorers sold prior to 2000, several hundred had tire failures that resulted in severe accidents - more than other brands but still only a fraction of the millions of Explorers sold. Big problem? YOU BET.

maxim
05-29-2012, 11:57 AM
I am also thinking that many people that have Moretaka and that problem, may think that the issue can be in they skills of sharpening

bprescot
05-29-2012, 11:59 AM
Approaching 30 pages, and I've yet to hear one person claim to have dealt with said issues....

Oh. Well then, my name is Ben Prescott, and I ... I have had a bum Moritaka. I've also had ones that are fine (or, at least, fine so far). The one I had an issue with was actually bought used, the two that look fine so far, one was from a retailer, and one was also used. The new one, however, I made sure I knew what the return policies were before purchase, and more on that in a moment.

When you get down to it, Moritaka's response to this repeated issue (and to an extent, the retailer response as well) is a variation on that famous Zen koan: "If the edge has a hole, and the user doesn't notice, does it make a difference?" I bought a Moritaka from mark, and was quite up front with him about my concerns pre-purchase. So, I asked what his return policy was if I noticed any issues. His response satisfied me, in that essentially if I noticed anything wrong after purchase, use, and sharpening, I should simply return it for a replacement.

From my perspective, that satisfied me, but I do see the point others are making, which is that people not frequenting this forum may not know when they DO encounter an issue. Some might never know, some might notice way down the road and never say anything. Even worse, some might take their new awesome knife to an unsuspecting sharpener and THEN notice the issue, and neither they nor sharpener would likely know that it's an issue to take up with the original retailer as the manufacturer has known issues. Instead the poor sharpener fellow loses out, either by having to pay for the knife, or by losing a customer that then bitches about the guy to other potential customer. I completely get that.

Of course, I also know that a lot of people on this and other forums have never noticed any problems with their Moritakas. I would imagine that there are many MANY more among the general public that will never notice any problems with their Moritakas (especially since the dirty truth is that your average non-chef consumer won't ever bother to sharpen their knives, let alone do so properly, and therefore may NEVER expose any holes).

So, given this full situation, is it sensible for the manufacturer to reform their processes to address the likely extreme minority of people that notice an issue (notice, that I didn't say "encounter"), or to instead simply accept that they will alienate a small section of their potential customer base?

On the retailer side, would it be better to not offer the product at all even though most will likely be quite happy with the knife, to trumpet to the world that there could be this issue and to notify them if there is, or to simply address those customers that report the issue?

None of those approaches either from the manufacturer or retailer are intrinsically "wrong" (though I certainly have opinions of what I would do, and what I would like done). It just seems like we keep bringing the issue up about the problem with these knives, when really what people are objecting to the most is the manufacturer's and retailers business decision in the face of the underlying problem.

I can only assume that from Moritaka's side, they've done the analysis and come to the conclusion that losing a certain segment of the market is less expensive than reforming their manufacturing process.

And on the retailer side, I can only assume that retailers have concluded that while the manufacturer may have issues, most of their customers don't notice and will never care as they are so happy with the knife's comparative sharpness. In that situation, they think it better to simply refund or replace as problems are reported.

If those decisions are what we disagree with, what do we think the alternatives should be? Isn't that the conversation we keep almost having?

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 11:59 AM
I don't want peoples hard feelings towards a retailer to taint a products reputation. If there are legitimate issues with either, they should be addressed.

Let's not continue towards any smear campaign, rather stick to relevant topics. Lack of customer service is absolutely relevant....

mhlee
05-29-2012, 12:00 PM
Reread it...I said your problems with quality control were disparaging. Not your comments. I was expressing sympathy towards you.

This is what you previously wrote:


But, the fact you still had issues with retailer over QC, is disparaging.


You accused me of disparagement because I "had issues with retailer over QC."

I absolutely had issues with the retailer over QC. If the retailer didn't think they were QC issues, that's fine. But to me, they were QC issues. And I'm not making stuff up. (Notably, I never saw this knife ever sold as a second on any forum or on the website.)

How are my "problems with quality control" disparaging?

bprescot
05-29-2012, 12:03 PM
How are my "problems with quality control" disparaging?

I think the point was that the issues you had with QC shouldn't have happened and are distressing, not that you were disparaging anyone, or that your comments were somehow inappropriate. At least, that's how I read it. I figured it was just a wrong word choice.

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 12:09 PM
Duplicate...

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 12:15 PM
It was disparaging to ME that you had to undergo the stated issues. Jeez!!!!

Maybe I should have used a synonym such as discouraging....

mhlee
05-29-2012, 12:16 PM
That would have been a much better choice and would have avoided most of my responses. Thanks.

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 12:19 PM
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7406&d=1337804766

This, yes? So it left the vendor with the edge that stright?


Yes that's my understanding of the situation.

bieniek
05-29-2012, 12:23 PM
Ok, thanks.

Ive never had an internet business selling knives, that is why i ask, is it possible that a certain vendor just received an order[for nakiri moritaka], went to store, picked up a box signed "nakiri" from moritaka section, packed it without looking inside the box[is the knife there or something maybe rats eaten half-a-handle] and posted it to the buyer?

How could you not notice that??!!

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 12:23 PM
Glad we're cleared up...

I need to stop typing from my phone, because I often don't read what I type...

NO ChoP!
05-29-2012, 12:28 PM
By the way, the knife in that photo is a POS, and should be thrown in the trash...lol

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 12:35 PM
Ok, thanks.

Ive never had an internet business selling knives, that is why i ask, is it possible that a certain vendor just received an order[for nakiri moritaka], went to store, picked up a box signed "nakiri" from moritaka section, packed it without looking inside the box[is the knife there or something maybe rats eaten half-a-handle] and posted it to the buyer?

How could you not notice that??!!


This subject has come up many many many times over the years. The consensus has been that the idea that a retailer would send out a knife without looking at it first is absurd. Now the next question we come to is if that even if they do inspect a knife before shipping, are they knowledgeable in what they're looking at to acknowledge a problem, meaning do they have enough experience to see issues? Then we follow that with do they care even if they do?

bprescot
05-29-2012, 12:50 PM
The consensus has been that the idea that a retailer would send out a knife without looking at it first is absurd.

Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here. I think the notion that a retailer above a certain size has even the CAPACITY to inspect every product they sell is unrealistic. Best Buy doesn't open up every single one of their products to check, nor do any of the other big retailers. I would also bet (though I could be wrong) that even extraordinarily reputable small sellers don't hand inspect all of their inventory before shipping. Not to pick, but when you were selling Arashiyamas or Takenokos, did you inspect every single one of them before shipping, Dave? I'm guessing not, though I could be wrong, because the reputation those stones have is so strong.

Personally, I think a more fair criticism would be when a retailer KNOWS that certain manufacturers have issues and don't take steps to do some additional QC before shipping, on those specific products.

clayton
05-29-2012, 12:58 PM
I might be misinformed here, but I really don't see what would be stopping cktg from just dropping Moritaka as a brand if they believed there was an issue. All they would need to do is explain the situation and stop stocking them. No one would buy Moritakas and everyone would be something else instead. They stock plenty of other knives to make up for a lack of having Moritakas. I would understand if they chose to continue selling Moritakas despite alleged issues if it was the only knife line they carried, but that is not the case

In addition, a while back I was considering buying a Moritaka and addressed my concerns with Mark. He responded that if I ever had such an issue with it he would take it back. I still did not buy one, but was okay with that response.

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 12:59 PM
Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here. I think the notion that a retailer above a certain size has even the CAPACITY to inspect every product they sell is unrealistic. Best Buy doesn't open up every single one of their products to check, nor do any of the other big retailers. I would also bet (though I could be wrong) that even extraordinarily reputable small sellers don't hand inspect all of their inventory before shipping. Not to pick, but when you were selling Arashiyamas or Takenokos, did you inspect every single one of them before shipping, Dave? I'm guessing not, though I could be wrong, because the reputation those stones have is so strong.

Personally, I think a more fair criticism would be when a retailer KNOWS that certain manufacturers have issues and don't take steps to do some additional QC before shipping, on those specific products.


Ha I knew I should've drop in the Amazon disclaimer into my statement. :D

yeah it's unrealistic for a large scale retailer to do inspections at shipment, I get that, but it's not in my opinion for the small time knife dealers that we're talking about here to do just that and I'd state that it should be expected.

Oh yeah I definitely always have and always will expect each and everything that I sell. I can't claim that I inspected things that can't be opened without messing up packaging (like the Beston 500x) but where I can I do. I'm sure even though I do this I've still missed something here or there though - that's human. I'd bet that if I was selling a known problem item (like a Moritaka) that I'd be all over those things though.

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 01:07 PM
I might be misinformed here, but I really don't see what would be stopping XXXX from just dropping Moritaka as a brand if they believed there was an issue. All they would need to do is explain the situation and stop stocking them. No one would buy Moritakas and everyone would be something else instead. They stock plenty of other knives to make up for a lack of having Moritakas. I would understand if they chose to continue selling Moritakas despite alleged issues if it was the only knife line they carried, but that is not the case




Morals?

maxim
05-29-2012, 01:12 PM
And thats why you should choose small retailer instead of big :D
I also check my Beston before shipping it out. I have paranoia if i ship somthing that i did not check :scared4:

bprescot
05-29-2012, 01:16 PM
And thats why you should choose small retailer instead of big :D
I also check my Beston before shipping it out

Haha. Well, that'll teach me. Hey, I said that I could be wrong!

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 01:21 PM
I don't want peoples hard feelings towards a retailer to taint a products reputation. If there are legitimate issues with either, they should be addressed.

Let's not continue towards any smear campaign, rather stick to relevant topics. Lack of customer service is absolutely relevant....


I agree here. I say this because even though I don't care for someone I still want the truth being said.

Also, for myself, I started my Moritaka mission way before CKTG even heard of them so I'm not singling them out in anyway, they're just one piece of the puzzle, a piece that I'm not focused at all on personally although I'm sure that it's hard for people to believe that based on past experience.

My #1 issue here is that people stop getting screwed - period!

My hope is that retailers hearing of these problems will address the issue with Moritaka and that Moritaka will listen and correct as necessary. If they don't then my hope is that retailers will put financial incentive behind their concerns that will motivate Moritaka to comply. The retailers hold a lot of power in this situation, they can make this right.

maxim
05-29-2012, 01:25 PM
No you are not wrong :) i see how big retailers dont check what they send out, also thats why sometimes they prices are cheaper, they use less of they time !
I have still not found one single Beston that was bad, but i cant see why i should not check them. It gives peaceful mind :D

Dave Martell
05-29-2012, 01:26 PM
Just for the hell of it, regarding customer service options for retailers.....


Option #1 - The Legal Obligation

We offer a money back guarantee if you ask for it.



Option #2 - The Moral Obligation

We will not sell products that are knowingly defective or have the propensity for defect.



Which option are you more comfortable with? Me, I like both. :)