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smilesenpai
08-11-2013, 12:46 AM
When segmenting a chicken (for example), do you use your gyuto? If so, what is the effects of bashing it through bones? Is a deba better off for the job?

Ruso
08-11-2013, 01:02 AM
I rarely bash through the bones, but when I did, I used a nice and heavy CCK cleaver. I do not see a gyuto bashing through the bones to be honest you will chip the blade.
To segment a chicken you do not need to bash through the bones, just cut where the joints are. You can use Honesuki/boning knife to do it or even a petty will do.
You can see an example here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQT1ol6Psug

Deba is more of a fish knife AFAIK.

Chuckles
08-11-2013, 01:03 AM
I use my misono dragon gyuto on chicken bones regularly and it has never chipped. A western deba would be great for this use. A traditional single beveled deba would not be a good choice for chix bones.

TheDispossessed
08-11-2013, 01:19 AM
i used to break down a case of ducks every week. by break down, i mean everything because this was for sausage. i used a gesshin ginga 150 petty, which if you've handled one, you know weighs literally about 30 grams, its quite a thin piece of steel. i never once had to go through bones and never chipped the blade and could do this job faster than any of my station partners.
i don't think a deba is necessarily unsuited for poultry, because it is ultimately a lot sturdier than a honesuki, but it's the profile that' the issue, it is uneccesarily tall for that job which will be less efficient and likely produce lesser results.
in my opinion, unless the cuisine demands it, there's simply no need to go through bones on poultry. try using the most delicate knife you have and it will make you very conscious of how you work.
fwiw, i have never used a gyuto for poultry fabrication, too awkward is all

brainsausage
08-11-2013, 02:01 AM
i used to break down a case of ducks every week. by break down, i mean everything because this was for sausage. i used a gesshin ginga 150 petty, which if you've handled one, you know weighs literally about 30 grams, its quite a thin piece of steel. i never once had to go through bones and never chipped the blade and could do this job faster than any of my station partners.
i don't think a deba is necessarily unsuited for poultry, because it is ultimately a lot sturdier than a honesuki, but it's the profile that' the issue, it is uneccesarily tall for that job which will be less efficient and likely produce lesser results.
in my opinion, unless the cuisine demands it, there's simply no need to go through bones on poultry. try using the most delicate knife you have and it will make you very conscious of how you work.
fwiw, i have never used a gyuto for poultry fabrication, too awkward is all

I have the Kono version of that knife that Jon sold before he started the Ginga line. Haven't handled the Ginga, but I'm guessing they're pretty similar. I used my Konosuke almost exclusively for a wide variety of meat fab, and it did/does perform beautifully. A little finesse goes a long way, and saves you a lot of product.

berko
08-11-2013, 07:08 AM
i use a dp honesuki. works good.

mikemac
08-11-2013, 09:35 AM
IMHO....sticking with your example A Gyuto is fine, a deba or western deba is overkill.
Usually, there is only one bone structure you'd go thru - the wish bone & breastbone. No reason you can't just slice thru that. Alternatively, sharpen the back 20% (?) for your blade at a more obtuse angle to accommodate the slightly heavier tasks. Finally, and this comes from a video showing a bunch of Japanese culinary students observing in a poultry processing store....flip the blade over and give the bone a solid whack with the spine. In this video, even though they were using a garasuki or honosuki, the demonstrator flipped the blade over, and he did the move very quickly.

TheDispossessed
08-11-2013, 11:08 AM
also, though some might think it's a hack move, a good pair of joyce chens will help with chicken bones, you can get em for $20 on amazon, they are absolutely the best kitchen scissors for the money.

Noodle Soup
08-11-2013, 11:11 AM
My favorite chicken cutting knife is a double bevel ground wa handled Carter Deba style knife slightly under 6-inches in blade length. (I don't know how many "suns" that is) There is more than one way to cut up a poultry fryer but mine involves 4 bone cuts. Spit the breast down the middle from the inside and then cut each half into two more pieces. Cut the back into two pieces. The Carter works perfect for this system. Never any edge damage.

panda
08-11-2013, 11:16 AM
utility/petty (i use a flexible wusthof one that's been heavily thinned), but why are you going through bone???

Noodle Soup
08-11-2013, 01:10 PM
Because you have to if you are going to make the cuts I described.

bahamaroot
08-11-2013, 01:46 PM
I can't remember ever having to "bash" a bone on anything I cooked.

keithsaltydog
08-11-2013, 03:27 PM
I can't remember ever having to "bash" a bone on anything I cooked.

Think it was just a poor use of word.Taking a bird apart you are going through the joints.Even when cutting through bone wt. a cleaver eg. Ducks & Ginger Chicken slight forward push stroke clean cuts thru bone Bashing can splinter bone.

easy13
08-11-2013, 03:34 PM
Mostly use Fujiwara Honesuki, but when having to cut neck/rib/back bones an unaltered Hiromoto AS does the job without any chipping

ChuckTheButcher
08-11-2013, 05:29 PM
When you debone a chicken I would highly suggest using a boning knife. The only bones you should ever have to cut through is where it connects to the back and that is only if you are doing bone in breast. If boneless breast you shouldn't be cutting through any bones. Any thing over 150mm is way to big and really a paring knife would work fine.

ChuckTheButcher
08-11-2013, 05:31 PM
You really should never be "smashing bones" with any animal. Especially with a gyuto.

cclin
08-11-2013, 06:32 PM
"chopping Chinese cleaver" will cut/bash mostly any bones, "all-purpose Chinese cleaver" can taking care most of poultry/fish bone.....just make sure do not use "slice Chinese cleaver" to cut any bone!!

JohnnyChance
08-11-2013, 06:45 PM
I will use anything to take apart a chicken, like people have mentioned, just going through joints. I don't think I have ever chipped a knife this way.

Nowadays though, I use my Yoshikane White #2 160mm Bone Chopper I got from Maxim. It is overkill but really fun and fast.

Noodle Soup
08-11-2013, 06:51 PM
I noticed in that video he tossed the back away as something for making stock later. Great if you need chicken stock but when I'm frying chicken the back sections are two of my favorite pieces. Thus I need to cut through the one once there. I remember in China being told the back and wings were the most favored pieces followed by the legs and thighs. Breast meat was the cheapest cut for poor folk that couldn't afford the good pieces.

brainsausage
08-11-2013, 09:22 PM
I noticed in that video he tossed the back away as something for making stock later. Great if you need chicken stock but when I'm frying chicken the back sections are two of my favorite pieces. Thus I need to cut through the one once there. I remember in China being told the back and wings were the most favored pieces followed by the legs and thighs. Breast meat was the cheapest cut for poor folk that couldn't afford the good pieces.

Breast meat is flavorless. Gimme that fat!

Noodle Soup
08-11-2013, 09:26 PM
I think you would find that is the rule in most parts of Asia.

keithsaltydog
08-11-2013, 09:48 PM
It is funny in our culture how the breast meat is cost more.Esp. for stews thigh meat better even wt. bone.I like the dark meat on Chicken & Turkey

JMac
08-11-2013, 09:54 PM
I like to use my r2 mr itou honesuki for all my meat and poultry fabrication. Very sturdy knife, doesn't chip. Steel stays sharp for a long time. I used many other knives for these jobs.For me, nothing is better suited.During the week i'll break down anything from whole quail,squab,chic,Sides of veal, whole pigs and Lamb. Three tools Honesuki, Large cleaver, Meat Saw. Thats it.

Chef Niloc
08-11-2013, 10:15 PM
I use this to bash threw bone...and nothing else in its way.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/celtic2174/Chef%20Nilocs%20Knives/8ca1e8e2.jpg

brainsausage
08-11-2013, 10:35 PM
That's a frickin lord of the rings prop, fess up!

jaybett
08-11-2013, 11:36 PM
I'm surprised that nobody on the forum is chopping up chicken bones. Years ago, I read Pam Andersons' recipe on making a chicken stock. She felt the trick was chopping up chicken bones to expose the marrow. I thick it was recipe that made me want a cleaver. Also I've seen a number of recipes, where poultry was chopped or hacked into bite size pieces, after it was cooked.

I don't know if I'd ever use a gyuto to chop up a chicken.

Since others have brought up the topic, a chicken can be broken down in the western style with any knife from a paring to a cleaver.

The Asian style, where a series of precise cuts are made and the meat is pulled off the bones, is where the honesuki, garasuki, and cleaver do make a difference.

From what I understand of the garasuki, they can be nothing more then a large honesuki. The garasuki's that have the steep bevel on one side, such as a Masamoto, are probably more in line with a deba, but with a narrow triangle profile. The members who enjoy breaking down a chicken with a deba, the garasuki would be the next step.

The little that I've got to play with a garasuki that main difference between it and the honesuki, seems to be production. The Masamoto is a big heavy knife, that is still nimble. If a significant portion of my job was breaking down chicken and deboning them, I would want a garasuki.

Jay

keithsaltydog
08-11-2013, 11:55 PM
Jay when I make Curry Stew etc.I chop up chix thighs to expose the marrow as you said,use a CCK bone cleaver.

smilesenpai
08-12-2013, 12:03 AM
This is the reason I ask @ 1:37 AND 2:37. It is the mad man Gordon Ramsey breaking down a chock.
When you make $45 mil plus a year, who cares what you do with your knife.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEJSHRSJCn8

jaybett
08-12-2013, 12:09 AM
Jay when I make Curry Stew etc.I chop up chix thighs to expose the marrow as you said,use a CCK bone cleaver.

Chicken Curry Stew sounds Ono.

If I was smart I would have picked up a CCK bone cleaver, instead I got a Sugimoto 22, which is an awesome knife. I don't use it enough though.

Jay

smilesenpai
08-14-2013, 04:08 AM
Not a gyuto, rather a massive CCK cleaver in an Asian kitchen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPibiurjOdE

Stumblinman
08-14-2013, 04:26 AM
WOW please don't use a vege cleaver to chop chicken bones. With some skill, there's no reason to chop chicken bones. And if you do, a small stainless euro chef knife will do fine. IMHO CCK cleaver isn't massive. OK in the end chicken stock is a quick stock. Please don't try to make chicken stock into veal demi. You'll just turn yourself into an ass.

Ruso
08-14-2013, 09:34 AM
You are confusing 2 cleavers. CCK has a line of nice heavy bone chopper cleavers. They have nothing to do with CCK vegie cleavers many people use except of similar form and steel and the handle ;)

Noodle Soup
08-14-2013, 11:16 AM
I'm guessing the guy in the video is using what they call a barbeque cleaver. I have a CCK model. Its very large and heavy, easily capable of chopping poultry and pork bones.

Pdksays
08-14-2013, 11:19 AM
Generally at work for poultry I use my honesuki, bashing through the bones is a bad thing because you end up with weird looking portions and bone fragments in the meat, which if you're serving the product to a paying customer is a bad thing. Use the tip of a petty or honesuki to probe for the joints and you'll find the bird wants to come apart with little to no force. That being said if I'm beating up backs and necks for stock I usually use a beater chef knife lying around the kitchen.

Stumblinman
08-14-2013, 03:09 PM
CCK makes other knives ? :whistling:
Ha gotcha I guess I just had vege cleavers on the brain.

ryann
09-21-2013, 02:06 PM
Not a gyuto, rather a massive CCK cleaver in an Asian kitchen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPibiurjOdE

Thanks for the link, learned a lot!