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Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 06:18 PM
There's been a lot of discussion concerning food release lately, so I thought it might be useful to show how different knives handle cutting food with fairly large "stiction" characteristics, namely, the common potato.

Feel free to post your own videos to this thread.

Rick

First knife up is the Gesshin Heiji 24 cm semi-stainless wa-gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKjiUoDxaJQ&feature=youtu.be

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 06:23 PM
Next up, the Masamoto KS 24 cm wa-gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1OMuddMUR0&feature=youtu.be

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 06:30 PM
Misono Swedish 24 cm gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj84LGmJnew&feature=youtu.be

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 06:36 PM
Ikkanshi Tadatsuna 24 cm YSS wa-gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6SDtxCGuoM&feature=youtu.be

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 06:51 PM
Itinomonn 24 cm V2 gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EUFb_qk71o&feature=youtu.be

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 06:55 PM
Yoshiaki Fujiwara (Kato) 24 cm wa-gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVIAa_uWNiQ&feature=youtu.be

Don Nguyen
08-11-2013, 06:59 PM
Awesome! Thanks for the videos Rick. The Itinomonn seems like a wicked cutter.

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 07:01 PM
HHH Knives 24 cm AEB-L gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFy8zwvyUCI

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 07:07 PM
Delbert Ealy 24 cm O1 gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu0snMA0CFw&feature=youtu.be

tripleq
08-11-2013, 07:10 PM
Cool stuff! Thanks. What is your opinion as to what the difference is between the knives that release well and those that don't? Geometry? Finish? Both?

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 07:13 PM
Awesome! Thanks for the videos Rick. The Itinomonn seems like a wicked cutter.

Don, it's one of the better gytuos I've used. Lefty says the Itinomonn kurouchi wa-gyuto he has is as good as the stainless-clad Western in the video.

Glad you find the them interesting.

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 07:19 PM
Devin Thomas 27 cm O1/15N20 damascus gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UsxZOiIAVg&feature=youtu.be

Johnny.B.Good
08-11-2013, 07:19 PM
Awesome thread, thanks for posting!

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 07:21 PM
Cool stuff! Thanks. What is your opinion as to what the difference is between the knives that release well and those that don't? Geometry? Finish? Both?

From the limited sample of knives I've done videos for, it's primarily geometry, although stiction increases somewhat with the degree of polishing of the blade.

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 07:27 PM
Rodrigue/McLean/Lamson O1 prototype gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS7XznCxgoE&feature=youtu.be

bikehunter
08-11-2013, 07:54 PM
So....FINALLY...there's my answer, instead of reading these relentless, never ending discussions. All I have to do to solve my sticktion problem with potatoes, is save up $500 to buy the Gesshin Heiji 240mm Semi-Stainless Wa-Gyuto. Problem gone. Poof. ;-)

mainaman
08-11-2013, 08:32 PM
Awesome! Thanks for the videos Rick. The Itinomonn seems like a wicked cutter.
You bet it is. My two favorite guytos are the Itinomon and the Kato.

jaybett
08-11-2013, 09:16 PM
Interesting

I've got a Tadatsuna western handled 300mm gyuto. I needed to cut up potatoes and was surprised how well the Tadatsuna did. There was very little stickage.

Back when Michael Radar was doing a pass around, Johnny Chance had no issues with cutting up potatoes, while Theory, with the same knife, had all sorts of problems. It's puzzling that the exact same knife, could have such different results.

Jay

Drum N Baste
08-11-2013, 09:35 PM
Excellent contribution! Thanks, Rick!

Dave Martell
08-11-2013, 10:12 PM
Interesting

I've got a Tadatsuna western handled 300mm gyuto. I needed to cut up potatoes and was surprised how well the Tadatsuna did. There was very little stickage.

Back when Michael Radar was doing a pass around, Johnny Chance had no issues with cutting up potatoes, while Theory, with the same knife, had all sorts of problems. It's puzzling that the exact same knife, could have such different results.

Jay


I think Rick's vids are excellent and love that he took so much of his time to share his results with us but I hope that everyone keeps Jay's comments in mind, I'd hate to see this or that claimed as fact when it's very possible to have another individual come up with different results. Maybe everyone should make a series of vids like this? We'd sure have a true average then. Anyway, thanks to Rick for all his hard work doing this.

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 11:03 PM
I think Rick's vids are excellent and love that he took so much of his time to share his results with us but I hope that everyone keeps Jay's comments in mind, I'd hate to see this or that claimed as fact when it's very possible to have another individual come up with different results. Maybe everyone should make a series of vids like this? We'd sure have a true average then. Anyway, thanks to Rick for all his hard work doing this.

I agree with the comments from Jay and Dave. I've used knives that were talked up as fantastic performers in KKF (and other forums) that fell short of my expectations. So my videos should be taken as only one piece of the puzzle.

Some variables that affect stiction are the variety of potato (starchy or waxy) as well as the width of the slice (a thick slice is heavier and will drop off easier than a thin one). There may well be effects from technique that play a part in food release.

Rick

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 11:04 PM
Yoshikane 24 cm V2 tamamoku wa-gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrPavY3Uof0&feature=youtu.be

Pensacola Tiger
08-11-2013, 11:06 PM
Aritsugu 24 cm A-type wa-gyuto:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mDMD7wXRkA

geezr
08-11-2013, 11:30 PM
:thanx:
Great videos :ggodjob:

NO ChoP!
08-12-2013, 12:11 AM
Did anyone else listen to how each knife cut?

Also, I noticed with a few, like the Masamoto, Rick was more comfortable using the heel end.

Very interesting. I thought the Yoshikane had a good balance of release, and smooth sounding slices.

Don Nguyen
08-12-2013, 12:13 AM
That DT made me smile a bit.

So.... what are you going to cook up with all the potatoes?

Pensacola Tiger
08-12-2013, 12:15 AM
That DT made me smile a bit.

So.... what are you going to cook up with all the potatoes?

Potato salad. Lots of potato salad.

Zwiefel
08-12-2013, 12:17 AM
Great share, PT! I had 3 thoughts as I watched these:

1) I think the comments about technique are right on, I recall Salty saying something similar as well.
2) If I did this thread, it would have had a lot fewer vids in it...nice collection PT!
3) Having potato soup tonight?

don
08-12-2013, 01:24 AM
Really really nice, PT. Thanks for making and sharing the videos.

ThEoRy
08-12-2013, 11:12 AM
Home fries for everyone!!!

stevenStefano
08-12-2013, 11:12 AM
I like how you've just posted the videos without comment and let everyone make up their own minds. A few there seem to perform surprisingly well

mpukas
08-12-2013, 12:02 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post these vids Rick. We all really appreciate the effort. Very impressive collection you as well!

I agree with the above comments, that there's more to it than just this one test, there's many variables that come into play, and everyone's experiences may not be the same. As great as these vids are and there's consistency from one knife to the next, this isn't a very real-world test - non of us would actually cut potatoes like that in a real cooking situation, and there the results may be different.

Great little experiment, and thanks again for sharing this with us! mpp

Don Nguyen
08-12-2013, 02:37 PM
I took a couple quick videos of the knives I had on hand.

Fujiwara Teruyasu Nashiji


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUkGvmdSUUk

Don Nguyen
08-12-2013, 02:37 PM
Eamon Catcheside Collab


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBka-KLu4as&feature=youtu.be

jigert
08-12-2013, 02:48 PM
Thanks for the vids, Rick! Quite interesting actually. As a home cook I didn't think food release was that important but lately I've starting to give it a second thought.
And once again, the Itinomonn sure looks like a great piece of steel! And wood of course. I have get my hands on one and give it a try one of these days.

Lefty
08-12-2013, 03:02 PM
Impressive, Don! I love your knives, as you know. That Catcheside/Burke Collab looks amazing!

Rick, you're right. The knife that made me preorder a Western Itinomonn from Maxim is the 210 Nashiji KU Itinomonn. They are fantastic knives. Beautiful grinds, fantastic food release and incredible feel...I'll be keeping my Itinomonn for a long long time.

jm2hill
08-12-2013, 04:21 PM
Glad that Ealy is getting some use. Never had much time for it way back when. It's nakiri brother does a mean job on carrots though!

Great video's rick looks real good.

Oh and I'm for sure finding a way to get one of those Itinomonn's. Looks unbelievable.

Ruso
08-12-2013, 06:54 PM
IMHO Gesshin Heiji wins so far :)
Thanks for all the vids OP.

Zwiefel
08-12-2013, 07:22 PM
Great to see this in action....nice work Don!


Eamon Catcheside Collab


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBka-KLu4as&feature=youtu.be

Pensacola Tiger
08-12-2013, 07:26 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post these vids Rick. We all really appreciate the effort. Very impressive collection you as well!

I agree with the above comments, that there's more to it than just this one test, there's many variables that come into play, and everyone's experiences may not be the same. As great as these vids are and there's consistency from one knife to the next, this isn't a very real-world test - non of us would actually cut potatoes like that in a real cooking situation, and there the results may be different.

Great little experiment, and thanks again for sharing this with us! mpp

Thanks for the comment and criticism. What would you recommend for a real-world test? Thin slices? Dicing?

NO ChoP!
08-12-2013, 07:27 PM
IMHO Gesshin Heiji wins so far :)
Thanks for all the vids OP.

I dunno...I heard a bit of a crunch from the Heiji. The DT, Itinomonn, and Yoshikane all were a bit quieter, yet released well....

NO ChoP!
08-12-2013, 07:34 PM
Thanks for the comment and criticism. What would you recommend for a real-world test? Thin slices? Dicing?

PT, for the intended purpose of the test, I think it's spot on. I think I remember Salty using peeled and soaked potatoes, as they are about as sticky as you can get. And, agian, I'm glad the action was clearly audible. Well done in my book....

Hopefully we can build a library of vids...that would be cool!

Lefty
08-12-2013, 08:08 PM
I think thin mushroom and potato slices, and dicing an onion would be great, but all in all, these really display the release properties of each knife.

bikehunter
08-12-2013, 08:21 PM
IMHO Gesshin Heiji wins so far :)
Thanks for all the vids OP.

I agree. If it made extra noise on the board I don't care as long as the food doesn't stick. I mean, isn't that the idea here in this demo? Sticktion.

chinacats
08-12-2013, 08:52 PM
I hate stiction! Thanks for taking the time to do this Rick! I think the test idea is excellent as the same technique is used consistently. Please continue with the arsenal whenever you get the time.

Don, love the Catcheside! Glad that you too maintained the original format.

Cheers!

tk59
08-13-2013, 11:31 AM
I think these videos do their intended job nicely as long as everyone realizes there is some variation between knives, technique, and produce. There's definitely a number of factors that affect sticktion some are more difficult to get a handle on that others. Aside from knife geometry and finish, I know that the amount of moisture on the knife can make a difference as well as the speed of cutting. Also, different parts of the knife will often behave differently. The technique part is real but I, personally, have trouble with that. I don't always get as good food release as some other folks doing what is seemingly the exact same thing and I've tried it in person, side by side, cutting the same stuff. It's been frustrating at times, to say the least. I must also add that the best anti-sticktion knife is easily Glestain. It's fantastic. With regard to the testing, push-cuts are gonna stick more than slicing motions, in general so that makes two types of tests. Maybe cutting progressively thinner slices might be illustrative, as well as cutting objects of different heights. Anyway, thanks for the vids, Rick. :thumbsup:

bikehunter
08-13-2013, 02:14 PM
Some variables that affect stiction are the variety of potato (starchy or waxy) as well as the width of the slice (a thick slice is heavier and will drop off easier than a thin one). There may well be effects from technique that play a part in food release.

Rick

And the potatoes you used were well scrubbed Russets, or what?

Pensacola Tiger
08-13-2013, 03:19 PM
And the potatoes you used were well scrubbed Russets, or what?

Good eye. Russets, a nice starchy potato.

bikehunter
08-13-2013, 03:42 PM
Good eye. Russets, a nice starchy potato.

Well, I eat more potatoes than any 3 people you know....and I live in Idaho. lol

Chefdog
08-14-2013, 01:21 PM
Rick, you're right. The knife that made me preorder a Western Itinomonn from Maxim is the 210 Nashiji KU Itinomonn. They are fantastic knives. Beautiful grinds, fantastic food release and incredible feel...I'll be keeping my Itinomonn for a long long time.

I was able to pick up the last one of the westerns from Maxim, and I'm stoked to get ahold of it. You guys are such enablers, it's awesome!!!

Dave Martell
08-14-2013, 07:10 PM
I was going to stay out of this but I can't see letting this good thread be ruined by a bunch 'O crap posts so I've gone ahead and cleaned the thread up.

Please understand that the mod team is discussing what to do about the exchange that took place earlier within this thread. The parties who took part in said exchange will be notified as to what will happen, if anything, as a result.

No more off topic posts will be permitted in this thread.

Flyingpigg
08-24-2013, 12:57 AM
Good eye. Russets, a nice starchy potato.

What kind of lighting do you have in your kitchen? I actually thought that the potatoes were yellow potatoes given the size and color.

Flyingpigg
08-25-2013, 08:28 AM
From the limited sample of knives I've done videos for, it's primarily geometry, although stiction increases somewhat with the degree of polishing of the blade.

What kind of geometry reduces food sticking for you?

ThEoRy
09-01-2013, 01:00 AM
Good convexed faces or multi faceted grinds or "s" shaped grinds release food pretty well.

Pensacola Tiger
09-02-2013, 09:34 AM
Here are a couple of new videos of a Stephen Fowler 25.5 cm gyuto cutting a potato, first into 1/4" slices, and then into thin slices, as was suggested after my last posting of food release videos. The potato is a yellow russet.

Fowler 25.5 cm 52100 gyuto


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aolV5G5xr-k


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHYHpq48Q-k

Lefty
09-02-2013, 02:44 PM
That Fowler's impressive!

Pensacola Tiger
09-02-2013, 03:03 PM
That Fowler's impressive!

You'll be getting a chance to try it for yourself, Tom.

Lefty
09-02-2013, 03:06 PM
Yay, for saya making!

Marko Tsourkan
09-02-2013, 04:25 PM
Looks like I need to send the 225mm promptly to join the crowd.

M

Pensacola Tiger
09-02-2013, 04:36 PM
Looks like I need to send the 225mm promptly to join the crowd.

M

I would be delighted to add it, Marko.

Zwiefel
09-03-2013, 11:59 AM
(more) Nice work PT!

stereo.pete
11-25-2013, 11:51 AM
So this thread inspired me to test my gyutos out and here are the results. The test was completed with a bag of russet potatoes on the same day under the same conditions. I will list the best first and going down the list they will progressively get worse.

1. Marko 255mm Gyuto 52100 - Best
2. Devin Thomas 240mm ITK #2 - Very close to Marko's
3. Konosuke White #2 240mm
4. Fujiwara 210mm FKH - Not the original geometry since it has been my dedicated user for the last three years
-------At this point, food release no longer happened. The potato slices both thick and thin stayed with the blade instead of staying on the board-------
5. Rader 240mm 52100 - Sharpest knife I own, literally acts as if there is no food when cutting, but food release isn't amazing
6. Shigefusa 240mm - Second sharpest knife I own compared to the Rader with the Marko coming in 3rd
7. Yoshikane 240mm Gyuto (Marko tweaked these back in the day)
8. Unknown VG10 210mm Gyuto purchased from Stefan
9. Richmond Addict super tuned by Dave
10. Joe Calton 10" Chef's Knife in 1095 (has a full flat grind so no surprise here, but cuts like the dickens)
11. 9" Forgecraft (needs a lot of work)

stereo.pete
11-27-2013, 10:29 AM
So this thread inspired me to test my gyutos out and here are the results. The test was completed with a bag of russet potatoes on the same day under the same conditions. I will list the best first and going down the list they will progressively get worse.

1. Marko 255mm Gyuto 52100 - Best
2. Devin Thomas 240mm ITK #2 - Very close to Marko's
3. Konosuke White #2 240mm
4. Fujiwara 210mm FKH - Not the original geometry since it has been my dedicated user for the last three years
-------At this point, food release no longer happened. The potato slices both thick and thin stayed with the blade instead of staying on the board-------
5. Rader 240mm 52100 - Sharpest knife I own, literally acts as if there is no food when cutting, but food release isn't amazing
6. Shigefusa 240mm - Second sharpest knife I own compared to the Rader with the Marko coming in 3rd
7. Yoshikane 240mm Gyuto (Marko tweaked these back in the day)
8. Unknown VG10 210mm Gyuto purchased from Stefan
9. Richmond Addict super tuned by Dave
10. Joe Calton 10" Chef's Knife in 1095 (has a full flat grind so no surprise here, but cuts like the dickens)
11. 9" Forgecraft (needs a lot of work)

I just repeated the above test with a few knives and had completely different results so take what I posted above with a grain of salt when it comes to food release.

Mucho Bocho
11-27-2013, 11:40 AM
No Pete, How did the Devin fair? My 250 ITK is the best cutter I have.

stereo.pete
11-27-2013, 04:37 PM
The top three remain unchanged, the Fujiwara was completely different the second time I used it for the potato test so who knows. The DT is from Devin's first batched and is inscribed with "#2" so I imagine it was part of the first 10. I purchased it from another member a year and a half ago and that member had spent some time thinning the original grind so mine is definitely not stock.

Mr.Magnus
12-25-2013, 03:13 PM
Have one to add.

Moritaka Damascus 240mm Gyuto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmpl8iW7LXA

cclin
12-25-2013, 03:54 PM
I'm so surprise Moritaka's food release performance....

Nmko
12-25-2013, 06:11 PM
I'm so surprise Moritaka's food release performance....

I think the mirror polish helped...

Mr.Magnus
12-25-2013, 06:12 PM
I think the mirror polish helped...

just as good before.

stereo.pete
12-25-2013, 11:30 PM
I love that board and typically a mirror polish does not help with stiction. Nice video Magnus!

mpukas
12-26-2013, 06:53 PM
Nice vid Magnus - thanks for sharing.

Can we talk about "grind" for a moment while we're in the food release thread... just thinking out loud...

To me, "grind" refers to the end result of what the maker does on a grinder of some sort, whether water wheel, belt, stones, etc. Grind can be used as both noun and verb. The grind of a knife, when I hear it, means that the knife has been ground from spine to edge. This would mean that kuro-uchi knives are not ground from spine to edge, usually from edge to a height of the secondary bevel, or shinogi line. The area above the secondary bevel or shinogi that's left with a kuro-uchi finish would have been hammered to shape.

So using Moritaka as an example, Magnus's damascus 240 gyuto we see above has (probably) been ground from edge to spine, whereas the KS that Salty shot some time ago has only been ground from edge to secondary bevel/shingoi line (if that's even the correct term to describe it - it may be just one large bevel).

Mr.Magnus
12-27-2013, 09:06 AM
Thanks Mpukas. Took some fast shots on it that should answer your questions.

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