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Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 04:15 PM
I hope I'm not annoying anyone by posting another one of these threads.

So I want to get my first "real" knife and start sharpening.
The two choices I am considering: The CCK 1303, I am unsure about using a cleaver; and the Tojiro Shirogami Nakiri 165mm.
I will state that I have read through many of these threads before and always see the suggestion of getting a good gyuto and going from there; but I would like to keep the price as low as possible, seeing as this is the knife I will be learning how to both sharpen on and take care of a carbon steel blade.

This will be exclusively a home use knife, cutting up onions, bell peppers, occasional jalapeno peppers, some green onions, possibly tomato, likely some potato, and other things as well.

I don't plan on cutting proteins with either of these choices.

So which would you pick, and do you have any other suggestions? Thanks for looking and reading.

Cheers,
Julian

Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 04:16 PM
I will also state that I am planning on getting either the King #1000 or the King #1000 & #6000.

Mucho Bocho
08-13-2013, 04:19 PM
julian, Sometime if you want help, you have to help youself. Luckilly this is not the case here, but you'll get much more input to your questions if you answer this questionare



LOCATION
What country are you in?



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Are you right or left handed?

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

Noodle Soup
08-13-2013, 04:23 PM
I probably use my cleavers more than my gyutos but that said, I think it would be easier to learn basic knife sharpening skill on the narrower blade. I consider a nakiri one of the easiest styles of to sharpen because it is all straight edge. No need to worry about the curve at the point.

Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 04:40 PM
LOCATION
What country are you in?

USA


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Nakiri, cleaver, or gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
no preference

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
165mm - 210mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
I want to stay close to $50


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Exclusively home use

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Mincing vegetables, slicing vegetables, and chopping vegetables.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
A cheap knife with a worn plastic handle and broken tip.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Slice, push-cut, and draw

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Better steel, better handle, and some added length

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
No

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

Colorado_cutter
08-13-2013, 05:07 PM
I used the CCK as my main knife for over a year. I liked it a lot: easy to sharpen, cuts great, scoops and scrapes well (as cleavers tend to do). The steel is pretty reactive, but who cares? I found the CCK quite comfortable, although you definitely want to ease the spine a bit with some sandpaper. I haven't used the Tojiro nakiri, but I have used the Tojiro petty. I rate it "OK." The steel is nice enough for the price, and it gets sharp easy. I don't care for the handle much, though. It feels cheap, cheaper than the CCK. It took a bit of sanding and carving to make the ITK handle better. Also, the plastic ferrule is kind of slippery. I wrapped a rubber band around mine for more grip, Definitely a low-rent solution. I'd go for the CCK. You'll probably find the larger size more useful down the road, too. But I think you're on the right path with cheap carbon steel. It sharpens easily (that's a big plus), doesn't hold the edge for a long, long time (that's good too- you get to sharpen more often!), and you get to play around with steeling, patinas etc.

Talim
08-13-2013, 05:46 PM
You should also consider a santoku. It's easy to sharpen and it'll give you some experience sharpening a curve edge. It's also more versatile than a nakiri. 330mate on ebay has the Tanaka ginsanko and kuroichi for less than $50. If you can spend a little bit more I'd get the blue damascus.

chinacats
08-13-2013, 06:04 PM
If you're sure about getting a cleaver then you could always buy a cheap one from the wokshop first. Some have had decent luck with the Tojiro, but the one I have has a nasty overgrind and it would probably not be a good choice for someone new to sharpening. I think you may find the Yamawaku nakiri in your price range. I've not tried it, but there is a review of it somewhere here.
As to stone, I think the combo King 1/6k is a good place to start.

Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 06:09 PM
Thanks for the suggestions.
So, now I have one recommendation for the CCK, a cuationary tale against the Tojiro, a recommendation for a santoku, and a recommendation for a nakiri.

Talim, you suggested I get the knife off of eBay, but I would like to buy whatever I get from somewhere with a return policy in case I am truly displeased with my choice.

Timthebeaver
08-13-2013, 06:29 PM
Cck. i had the Tojiro ITK Nakiri, it's s**t.

easy13
08-13-2013, 06:32 PM
I would still say get a solid cheap carbon gyuto - Fujiwara FKH or the Suisin High Carbon. But if you want a different shape and something cheaper might want to check the stuff under "Country Style" on Japan Woodworker. I've never tried any of them but they seem to be what you looking for, sure the handles are rather shite.

Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 06:37 PM
So I am now leaning towards the CCK.

If I do decide to buy the CCK, do you have any tips on care, sharpening, not losing a finger, and/or storage?

Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 06:46 PM
Thanks for the suggestions!

I think I will stick with a known cleaver, and the gyutos are a bit above what I want to spend.

mhlee
08-13-2013, 06:50 PM
Dexter Russel Carbon Steel Chinese Cleaver/Chef's Knife.

It's a little thicker than Chinese Vegetable Cleaver, decent fit and finish, it's available for less than $40 (check your local restaurant supply store or online), durable, and takes a wicked edge off of a 1000 grit stone. I used one for years and still have it.

Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 07:24 PM
I was under the impression that Dexter Russell cleavers weren't very good, but I guess I was wrong. I will take a look at them.

mhlee
08-13-2013, 07:58 PM
I was under the impression that Dexter Russell cleavers weren't very good, but I guess I was wrong. I will take a look at them.

How did you get that impression?

Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 08:12 PM
Now that I think about it, I don't remember.

Noodle Soup
08-13-2013, 08:25 PM
There are those that want to pretend anything from outside the US is just naturally better than a Russell but their cleavers have been used by many professional chefs for years. Other than I have a mountain of other cleaves I've picked up in my travels, I have nothing against a Dexter Russell. The fit and finish is actually very good compared to the average cleaver used in China.

Talim
08-13-2013, 08:43 PM
Talim, you suggested I get the knife off of eBay, but I would like to buy whatever I get from somewhere with a return policy in case I am truly displeased with my choice.

330mate does have a return policy but good for 14 days only. Why don't you post a "WTB" ad in the b/s/t forum instead? I'm sure one of the guys here will give you a good knife for a better deal than you can buy anywhere online or anywhere for that matter.

labor of love
08-13-2013, 08:54 PM
my vote is for cck. definitely pick a cleaver over a nakiri, cleavers are better multitaskers.

Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 09:04 PM
Lots of great ideas so far.

I think that I would like to start with the cleaver, so now there is the question of which one.

A quick question, for those who have used both the Dexter Russell and the CCK, which one is taller?

Noodle Soup
08-13-2013, 09:10 PM
Like you are going to make me go measure? I don't remember them being much different but I do know I have Chinese cleavers that are too tall for my style of cooking. They probably work in a high volume restaurant kitchen but they aren't ideal for the two person type meals I mostly fix.

chinacats
08-13-2013, 09:35 PM
Julian, evidently there are two sizes. I would recommend the smaller one for a home cook. You can find both sizes here (http://www.wokshop.com/HTML/products/cleavers/dexter-cleaver.html).

Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 09:46 PM
There seems to be alot of belly on that particular cleaver, but, other than that, it is only 3" tall, which sounds great.

bkdc
08-13-2013, 10:13 PM
CCK1303. I like the Tojiro ITK, but the cladding rusts fast! The white steel is fine, and I like nakiris. But the cladding on the Tojiro is an oxidizing monster.

labor of love
08-13-2013, 10:37 PM
wow. that small dexter cleaver weighs 1.2 pounds? thats a bit heavy. most full size cleavers are lighter than that.

chinacats
08-13-2013, 10:51 PM
wow. that small dexter cleaver weighs 1.2 pounds? thats a bit heavy. most full size cleavers are lighter than that.

They charge shipping by weight, so not sure how they figure that...may be shipping weight. They are very helpful though if you call.

Talim
08-13-2013, 11:05 PM
I bought my wok at their actual shop lol. The old lady/owner is a bit on the crazy side.

Crothcipt
08-13-2013, 11:25 PM
Julian, I think that for you a nakiri would be better than a tall cleaver atm. Give it a few years after you have grown to get the cleaver (if I remember right you are at about 13 yo.)

Julian Nell
08-13-2013, 11:31 PM
I have progressed to 14 at this point.

So, maybe a used knife is a better idea.

chinacats
08-13-2013, 11:45 PM
Used knives are great--I buy and sell often actually! You can buy them for less than they cost new, therefore getting more for your money. I think someone suggested posting in b/s/t wanting to buy. If you look you will notice that many wanting to buy posts are very successful, you may even wind up being able to afford a 210 gyuto which would be an awesome knife to learn to use as well as sharpen. You can often get your money back by reselling the knife (minus the cost of shipping) allowing you to try a few options at your leisure to see what you really like.

:2cents:

toddnmd
08-14-2013, 12:10 AM
I agree a used 210 gyuto will probably get you the most bang for your (limited) buck.

Crothcipt
08-14-2013, 12:14 AM
Congratz on the b-day. What I mean is I think the cleaver would be little big (not knowing your size). Whereas you can practice the same cuts with a nakiri.

Julian Nell
08-14-2013, 12:19 AM
Thanks for the input.

Alright, I think I will look into buying used.

There are two problems I can think of though; the first is that I am unsure what a good knife would be, and the bevel would need to be set correctly if it isn't already.

GlassEye
08-14-2013, 12:29 AM
I also think a 210 gyuto from the B/S/T here would be a good choice. You should't have to worry about the knife being sharpened properly if you get it from someone here, it would likely be set up properly already.

ThEoRy
08-14-2013, 01:21 AM
Go to the bst and create a wtb 210 guyto thread.

Julian Nell
08-14-2013, 01:36 AM
Alright, I am going to have wait a couple of days though.

sachem allison
08-14-2013, 01:39 AM
julian talk to knyfeknerd, he may something for you. tell him i sent you

chinacats
08-14-2013, 01:42 AM
Don't ask, just do as chef (SA) says! :thumbsup:

Julian Nell
08-14-2013, 02:48 AM
Okay but I am going to do it in the morning; I have been in the YouTube knuckleheads thread and it is now very late.

toddnmd
08-14-2013, 07:51 AM
If you got multiple (or any) offers, you could always post them here--we love to give suggestions! :-)

If you buy something unused, or at least not sharpened, or from a competent sharpener, bevels should be okay. I'm guessing you don't want to pay for professional sharpening. Or you could just follow some of the very good advice on here and do your own sharpening.

Speaking of which, how do you plan to sharpen?



Thanks for the input.

Alright, I think I will look into buying used.

There are two problems I can think of though; the first is that I am unsure what a good knife would be, and the bevel would need to be set correctly if it isn't already.

mhlee
08-14-2013, 12:47 PM
Julian, evidently there are two sizes. I would recommend the smaller one for a home cook. You can find both sizes here (http://www.wokshop.com/HTML/products/cleavers/dexter-cleaver.html).

It appears that those are the stainless versions. In my experience and according to the website, there is only one size for the high-carbon steel cleaver.