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View Full Version : Watching the Master at work...Kramer



Mucho Bocho
08-16-2013, 02:15 PM
So I've been trying to learn how to properly free-hand sharpen knives. Thus been doing a lot of research on different methods and techniques. I've pulled from Dave M., Maxim and Jon B. I want to learn Jon's way (the traditional Japanese way).

Anyway I hope I'm not breaking the rules but I wanted to share a this video of how Mr Kramer sharpens knives. He's obviously trying to push his products but there is a lot of useful informaton in this video. Sorry if this video has been passed around before. Watching him work that knife just sends chills up my spine. In a good way.

Also, Notice how he really changes the angles on each side of the blade. Its amazing how fast he got that blade to sit up at attention. If there has ever been one, he's certainly a knife Rockstar in my book. Also, He's going back to the postal scale and talking about pounds of pressure to use.

Sorry Dave/Jim if I'm not susposed to post this trype of stuff, just thought everyone would enjoy it.

KKF Comments please

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFhMGJYhYpU

wsfarrell
08-16-2013, 03:44 PM
Always fun to watch a master.

cheflarge
08-16-2013, 03:51 PM
Interesting, however, I think Jon's video's are absolutly the best and most informative for the traditional Japanese style of sharpening. IMHO. No disrespect to Dave or Maxim, have not seen your videos as of yet.

chinacats
08-16-2013, 03:58 PM
Good share! Seems like 4-6 pounds is a very high amount of pressure? That said, I've never checked...

bahamaroot
08-16-2013, 04:50 PM
That's the same type of technique that I use and it's fast and efficient. It seems to be the easiest way to hold a consistent angle for me.

mpukas
08-16-2013, 05:16 PM
I watched all of those vids w/ Bob when they came out. I picked up some things from him, and since then I've found many things to be consistent with things I've learned for others.

The one thing I don't care for with his technique - which I've learned from my own mistakes that have been pointed out and corrected by Dave and Jon - is his sweeping stroke. I've learned that sharpening happens where pressure is applied. That means that it's important to keep you fingers over the center of the stone, and know where on the blade pressure is being applied. When he keeps his fingers in the same place on the blade and sweeps the knife, that will eventually lead to uneven sharpening due to uneven pressure. I bird's beaked a couple of my knives pretty bad because I was using a similar technique.

Beyond that, I have huge respect and admiration for Bob. I really happy these vids are out there for the < unwashed ;-) > masses as I'm really bothered my the main stream food media's continued position that sharpening knives should only be done by professionals - and that's a loose term as that can often mean a shady guy in van with grinders, but not always obviously - and never attempted at home.

mpukas
08-16-2013, 05:41 PM
I'll see you your Kramer, and raise you a Carter;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdEe9sEQRcE

The one thing that I find odd is what he refers to as the primary and secondary edge, that we generally refer to as the primary and secondary bevel, and the edge is the edge. Just different terms to refer to the same thing.

JohnnyChance
08-16-2013, 05:51 PM
The one thing I don't care for with his technique - which I've learned from my own mistakes that have been pointed out and corrected by Dave and Jon - is his sweeping stroke. I've learned that sharpening happens where pressure is applied. That means that it's important to keep you fingers over the center of the stone, and know where on the blade pressure is being applied. When he keeps his fingers in the same place on the blade and sweeps the knife, that will eventually lead to uneven sharpening due to uneven pressure. I bird's beaked a couple of my knives pretty bad because I was using a similar technique.

I don't quite sweep like Bob does, but when I am moving fast I walk my fingers along the blade very little (depending on blade length). Instead I regular pressure through each finger independently, kinda like playing a piano or keyboard. All of my fingers are in contact with the blade but only the one centered on the stone is applying any pressure.

Mucho Bocho
08-16-2013, 05:57 PM
Good one MP!

bahamaroot
08-16-2013, 06:18 PM
I think with the way he holds his knife and strokes the stone the pressure across the blade is a lot more even than you might think. Besides, he's the master, how can you go wrong duplicating anything he does.

Zwiefel
08-16-2013, 06:31 PM
I think with the way he holds his knife and strokes the stone the pressure across the blade is a lot more even than you might think. Besides, he's the master, how can you go wrong duplicating anything he does.

No matter what, there has to be some flexing of the blade going on...esp if the pressure actually is even. That flexing is what will cause the profile of the blade to change over time.

bahamaroot
08-16-2013, 06:43 PM
No matter what, there has to be some flexing of the blade going on...esp if the pressure actually is even. That flexing is what will cause the profile of the blade to change over time.
Well, he didn't get where he's at not knowing what he is doing.

mpukas
08-16-2013, 06:55 PM
No matter what, there has to be some flexing of the blade going on...esp if the pressure actually is even. That flexing is what will cause the profile of the blade to change over time.

In addition to the blade flexing, Jon has taught me that sharpening happens where the pressure is placed. i.e. On a hamaguri edge, the two bevels are sharpened differently by changing where the pressure is more so than changing the angle at each bevel. Same principal here - with his sweeping motion and stationary hand position the pressure is different along different points on the blade and will cause uneven sharpening.

GlassEye
08-16-2013, 07:07 PM
No matter what, there has to be some flexing of the blade going on...esp if the pressure actually is even. That flexing is what will cause the profile of the blade to change over time.

You can see some flex in the video, actually. I only noticed as I was somewhat surprised by the amount of flex I saw.

And he is a master, there are other masters, some of which are on this forum.

CrisAnderson27
08-16-2013, 07:34 PM
You can see some flex in the video, actually. I only noticed as I was somewhat surprised by the amount of flex I saw.

And he is a master, there are other masters, some of which are on this forum.

That was very well, and diplomatically said.

I freely admit that even having seen Jon's videos (I'll be ordering Dave's soon as well), I tend to sharpen with a sweeping motion much like Mr. Kramer did in his video here.

That said...its something I've been consciously working on correcting.

JohnnyChance
08-16-2013, 07:45 PM
The other thing to note is that this is clearly a video for beginners, to get people to who don't sharpen to actually sharpen their knives (or at least buy the sharpening kit ;) ). I find it is much easier to teach people to sharpen in sections. Kinda takes one element out of the equation. Very rarely if ever do I see people who are able to maintain angle, pressure, move their fingers along the blade and make an even sweeping motion from the get go. Much easier to start with sectional and get comfortable. He does touch on this, even if he prefers to sharpen in a sweeping motion, perhaps he should have spent more time showing beginners a good way to get started.

TheDispossessed
08-17-2013, 12:30 AM
at the risk of sounding like a jerk, that was a little painful to watch.
the uneven pressure on the knife, there's just no way that tip got sharpened. and his stone holder kept jumping around on the counter and looks to me like a ridiculous contraption. and also, i could care less about a knife cutting paper. i used to shave my arm and cut paper and all that, but i think maintaining good knife geometry is seriously overlooked. keeping a knife nice and thin behind the edge will ensure that once it loses a little bit of its edge on that crappy poly board you have to use all day, it will still cut extremely well for the rest of the day or more.

bahamaroot
08-17-2013, 12:52 AM
.....i could care less about a knife cutting paper. i used to shave my arm and cut paper and all that, but i think maintaining good knife geometry is seriously overlooked.
+1

Justin0505
08-17-2013, 01:37 AM
Yeah the fingers / pressure not over the stone really bothered me. Aside from the reasons that others have already mentioned, it's also a much less safe way to sharpen especially when you start moving faster and / or as your fingers and the blade start to get wet and muddy. If your fingers slip off the blade when you've gotem centered on the stone, the worse cut that's likely to happen is a little skin off the finger tips. But if you slip with your fingers hanging off the edge of the stone like that, ESPECIALLY when using a sweeping stroke, the can get caught between the side of the stone and the edge and result in a really nasty injury.

454Casull
08-22-2013, 11:35 PM
What I didn't like was that he wears gloves when using a bench grinder.

Mrmnms
08-23-2013, 04:00 AM
What I didn't like was that he wears gloves when using a bench grinder.

Why?

Lucretia
08-23-2013, 07:11 AM
Why?

Glove could get caught and pull your hand into grinder, would be my guess.

Baby Huey
08-23-2013, 08:08 AM
Yeah it is bad practice to use gloves on any stationary rotating equipment.

Mrmnms
08-23-2013, 11:14 AM
I confess that I sometimes use gloves with a grinder . Judging from the shape of his hands, I can understand why he does.

cheezit
08-23-2013, 10:07 PM
Kramer just put on a two hour demonstration today at the Western Blacksmith Conference in Mt. Hood, Oregon. It was a pretty great demonstration and I'm sorry I don't have any photographs from it.

CrisAnderson27
08-23-2013, 10:29 PM
I use gloves with all of my grinders. I happen to like my skin intact and undamaged as one complete organ. Unless its a heat treated blade. At that point, when I say 'ouch!' (human skin feels pain from temperature at 115F to 130F...WAY below tempering temperature) its time to dunk it again lol.

Crothcipt
08-24-2013, 12:32 AM
Kramer just put on a two hour demonstration today at the Western Blacksmith Conference in Mt. Hood, Oregon. It was a pretty great demonstration and I'm sorry I don't have any photographs from it.
Dang went to the ABS one in Ohio

cheezit
08-24-2013, 01:01 AM
Dang went to the ABS one in Ohio

It was really cool. Murray Carter showed halfway during the demonstration and talked with Mr. Kramer afterwards. It was awesome to see two of the greatest kitchen knifemakers in the world discussing their craft with each other.

brainsausage
08-24-2013, 01:27 AM
Did Murray tell Kramer that his profiles are junk? Or did Kramer tell Murray to jack his prices up and make way less knives a year? Or am I just fecking exhausted and drunk?

cheezit
08-24-2013, 01:40 AM
Definitely the latter! After the demonstration they talked for a long time and even took pictures with each other. It believe Murray Carter was also translating for two guests. I heard they were from the steel factory that produces the SG2 for the Kramer Zweilling line.

Salty dog
08-24-2013, 01:40 AM
His OTB edges are nothing to write home about.

brainsausage
08-24-2013, 01:49 AM
Definitely the latter! After the demonstration they talked for a long time and even took pictures with each other. It believe Murray Carter was also translating for two guests. I heard they were from the steel factory that produces the SG2 for the Kramer Zweilling line.

So Murray was trying to set up a deal to have knives stamped out with his name on them too?

cheezit
08-24-2013, 02:12 AM
I was there for a Kramer presentation, not to listen to peoples conversations. Overall Kramer gave a super great demo. He said that his 52100 has a grain structure that is at 2microns, and that his Kramer Zweilling line, with the particle steel, is almost as small. His personal attention and heat treat is obviously the difference.

eaglerock
08-24-2013, 04:47 AM
It was really cool. Murray Carter showed halfway during the demonstration and talked with Mr. Kramer afterwards. It was awesome to see two of the greatest kitchen knifemakers in the world discussing their craft with each other.

Do you really think so ?

cheezit
08-24-2013, 09:14 AM
Yes, but don't let my opinion affect what you believe.

mikemac
08-24-2013, 10:20 AM
So Murray was trying to set up a deal to have knives stamped out with his name on them too?

Sadly, he stopped doing that about 6 - 7 years ago....

keithsaltydog
08-24-2013, 03:30 PM
I did sweep method before I learned Japan style.Using fingerpads near the edge.pressure on trailing stroke.Moving along the edge heel to tip.It did not take long to master & I never had to use a dull knife again.

I watched Kramer's honing video,he made some good points until he said most people don't put enough pressure on the steel,my experience is that most people put too much press. on the steel.If you use a steel lite measured strokes on smooth steels or ceramics works best.

Not saying that his tech. sharpening not good.If you get the blade sharp thats what counts.I am a little biased though,feel that Japan style works best.

keithsaltydog
08-25-2013, 04:38 PM
I use gloves with all of my grinders. I happen to like my skin intact and undamaged as one complete organ. Unless its a heat treated blade. At that point, when I say 'ouch!' (human skin feels pain from temperature at 115F to 130F...WAY below tempering temperature) its time to dunk it again lol.

Yes bare hand on blades soon as feel any heat dunk it.