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NO ChoP!
03-21-2012, 10:05 AM
People often refer to their favorite knife as an extension of their arm; it just feels natural. I do not get this with the ZKramer... where most knives sweet spot is, the ZKramer gets awkward and flat feeling. I would never draw cut from heel to tip with it.

My recent favorite has been the Moritaka KS. This profile lends to the largest sweet spot I've personally experienced. It's draw is as smooth as a sujihiki.

a.lber.to
03-21-2012, 12:54 PM
I just KNEW I should not have read this thread through... next thing I know, I have one on order! Sigh... :dontknow:

DeepCSweede
03-21-2012, 01:02 PM
I just KNEW I should not have read this thread through... next thing I know, I have one on order! Sigh... :dontknow:

Alberto,

Get it and give it a chance - if you don't like it send it back. Especially if you bought it through Sur La Table, they have a very lenient return policy. I still like mine, but I am a home chef, so I am not using it as much as NoChop. Mine sharpens well, cuts well, I like the balance a lot. I don't really notice the dead spot as much as Chris, but I think the analogy that it is two knives may be right on. I definitely use it in two spots, but I am tall and have huge mitts, so it fits me well and isn't that why you get a 10" / 270mm?

a.lber.to
03-21-2012, 01:34 PM
Don't get me wrong, I read the thread through to the end, and then went ahead and ordered it - I was actually saying that I should NOT have read the thread at all!!!

Being in Europe, buying it is a bit more of a gamble, as if I return it I will be out of the shipping and the VAT I will most likely have to pay upon receipt (so, basically, that is unlikely to happen). Having read a lot about Kramer knives, I was very intrigued by his work and the shape of his knives, and this seemed like a low-enough entry point to see what that shape is all about... if I do not like it, I can always try to sell it locally in Europe.

Crothcipt
03-21-2012, 04:24 PM
I posted on the Z-Kramer 10" already and was REALLY disappointed with it. F&F was not as good as I thought it should be at this price point (I'm a home cook who hasn't explored the world of custom knives, so some of you may still think $350 is modest. I don't). I tried to cut a beef rawhide for my dogs, something my Forschner's does with ease, and the attempt left a 1/4" gash in the steel. Yes, a gash, not a chip. Maybe I shouldn't cut such an object with this kind of knife, but a gash in the steel? Sorry, underwhelmed. Recently bought the 240mm CarboNext gyuto and like it MUCH more. Needs sharpening though.

Dan did you leave a review on amazon about this problem? I just read it last night.

I have been wanting a Kramer for a few mo. and just can't see why the price keeps going up. Also on another note Kramer now has some ready mades for sale. His carbon starts at 2700$, his damascus is 6250$.

jaybett
03-22-2012, 04:21 AM
Alright, I'm going to call the Kramer out, and hope that no one that traded in their Vette to buy one doesn't come looking for me.... ( these people must be displaying these and not using them, as I can't believe NO ONE has pointed this out!)

The 10" Kramer is really a 6" Kramer attached to the front of a flat 4" cleaver!!! (I have the Z, but I'm assuming the real deal shares the profile, no?)

Really...

I find the front six inches and the back four to work very differently with zero cohesion between the two. This knife actually has two sweet spots! BUT, it has one spot, that lies between the front six and the back four that is useless, clumsy and actually poorly designed IMO.

I have been using this knife for quite some time now, and when I say use I mean professionally; I beat the snot out of it...

There are still lots of things I love about this knife; handle, steel, taper, tip; but it's awkwardness is something I haven't been able to overcome. It is actually something I have become cognitive of; either use the back end like a nakiri or a cleaver, or the front like a huge bellied chef knife.......

Hopefully, someone may take this into consideration before dropping the newly raised to $399 price tag.............

I did mention it, back in July....




The Kramer edge while angled is flat until it sweeps up dramatically to the point. Eyeballing it, I'd say that at least 7 inches of the edge are flat. I don't think it would be unreasonable to characterize the Kramer as a nakiri with a tip. My hunch is that this is the reason why people who are use to gyutos find the Kramer odd. Since the cleaver is my main knife, the Kramer feels right.


Jay

NO ChoP!
03-22-2012, 09:12 AM
Jay, that's awesome. I'm actually glad you have reinforced my sentiment....

I too still overall like the Kramer, just want people to be aware of its quarkiness.

DanB
03-22-2012, 09:46 AM
Dan did you leave a review on amazon about this problem? I just read it last night.

I have been wanting a Kramer for a few mo. and just can't see why the price keeps going up. Also on another note Kramer now has some ready mades for sale. His carbon starts at 2700$, his damascus is 6250$.

I did. I was really impressed with this knife when I first tested in in a SLT. Tried is several times in different stores before buying. But in truth, it was my first foray into really good knives (I've had Wustoff, Henckels, Global and Tojiro before). This was a major revelation. But like guys on this forum say often, and it's true, it takes some time to find what you really like. I've just gotten the CarboNext gyuto and really like it. Assuming it sharpens well and stays in good shape, I think this will do it for me. Not seeing any reactivity with it at all yet.
On the Z-Kramer again, I was also a little disappointed with the finish. The brass rivets were not perfectly flush (as they are on the CarboNext). Not bad enough to send back for that alone, but at that price, I'd say perfect is to be expected. Luckily I bought it from cutleryandmore, and they have a VERY liberal return policy (in fact, a lifetime satisfaction policy).

Andrew H
03-22-2012, 10:51 PM
I did. I was really impressed with this knife when I first tested in in a SLT. Tried is several times in different stores before buying. But in truth, it was my first foray into really good knives (I've had Wustoff, Henckels, Global and Tojiro before). This was a major revelation. But like guys on this forum say often, and it's true, it takes some time to find what you really like. I've just gotten the CarboNext gyuto and really like it. Assuming it sharpens well and stays in good shape, I think this will do it for me. Not seeing any reactivity with it at all yet.
On the Z-Kramer again, I was also a little disappointed with the finish. The brass rivets were not perfectly flush (as they are on the CarboNext). Not bad enough to send back for that alone, but at that price, I'd say perfect is to be expected. Luckily I bought it from cutleryandmore, and they have a VERY liberal return policy (in fact, a lifetime satisfaction policy).

If you haven't sharpened your CarboNext yet I'm guessing you'll be happy with it. They are somewhat famous for coming with poor edges from the factory.

qckfrze
04-12-2012, 04:26 AM
For those that like this knife: What is the intention of the flat part of the blade near the heel?

I demo'ed the knife @ SLT twice, once on a wood cutting board, a second on the black wood composite board (felt much harder), and I noticed that the last inch of blade near the heel is "suspended" above the board when the knife heel is all the way down. If I'm cutting w/ a chef's knife, this means the strip of veggies gets cut but it's all still held together by a thin skin where the knife didn't contact the board.

What gives? Is this supposed to be the way this knife cuts?

mpukas
04-12-2012, 12:09 PM
I finally got to fondle a ZKramer in SLT in Boulder the other day. My thoughts echo Chris's and Jay's f/ above. They only had a crappy thin composite cutting board on a glass counter top, so the cutting surface was very noisy and strange and distractiong. The knife I used wasn't very sharp at all, but it still cut, sliced, cubed and juillened an apple very nicely. I like the handle design. I think issues w/ fit and finish around the handle and pins could be from the wood shrinking/swelling. Taper was very nice, thin at the tip, and spine thickness was no more than 3mm above the heel, I'm guessing. Grind was dead flat on the sides, no convexing.

I found the profile odd - calling it a kakiri w/ a tip is very accurate. I have a Moritaka kiri-gyuto that is dead-flat for the first 1/2-2/3 of the blade, and as with the ZK, it's somewhat akward, but I found the tip more strange. It's probably due to what I'm used to in Japanese gyuto profiles, as I like a tip to have a gentle curve and a bit of a flat spot behind the point. I found the ZK tip to be small in it's amount of curve and it was a continuos curve.

Overall, very nice for a factory produced knife. I prefer the profile of a gyuto, and there's no way I'd pay $400 for it.

mpukas
04-12-2012, 12:15 PM
For those that like this knife: What is the intention of the flat part of the blade near the heel?

I demo'ed the knife @ SLT twice, once on a wood cutting board, a second on the black wood composite board (felt much harder), and I noticed that the last inch of blade near the heel is "suspended" above the board when the knife heel is all the way down. If I'm cutting w/ a chef's knife, this means the strip of veggies gets cut but it's all still held together by a thin skin where the knife didn't contact the board.

What gives? Is this supposed to be the way this knife cuts?

It's referred to as accordianing. It happen when a blade that is supposed to be dead flat has "holes" in the edge, or over-ground, or unevenly ground areas, along the primary/edge bevel.

It could be that the knife you tried was over-ground in the heel. I didn't notice it on the on I tried, but that's no to say it wasn't there. Sometimes an issue like this can be fixed with proper sharpening, other times it can be a big issue (chceck out the Moritaka threads w/ over-grind issues). Other folks here are a lot more experienced with this than I am, and will hopefully chime in.

qckfrze
04-12-2012, 01:24 PM
I tried two different 10" chef knives: the demo one off the magnetic rack, and one fresh from the box, unopened. Both exhibited the exact same "flat spot", so I'm wondering if other owners/users of this knife see the same issue.

Or is it that this batch of knives from Zwilling had a defect?

Andrew H
04-16-2012, 08:56 AM
I tried two different 10" chef knives: the demo one off the magnetic rack, and one fresh from the box, unopened. Both exhibited the exact same "flat spot", so I'm wondering if other owners/users of this knife see the same issue.

Or is it that this batch of knives from Zwilling had a defect?

Most knives we talk about here have flat spots near the heel. It helps to prevent accordioning when doing a push cut or chop. The problem seems to be either A. both knives had an overgrind in the same place (somewhat unlikely) or B. your technique isn't used to the new profile.

tk59
04-16-2012, 01:51 PM
For those that like this knife: What is the intention of the flat part of the blade near the heel?

I demo'ed the knife @ SLT twice, once on a wood cutting board, a second on the black wood composite board (felt much harder), and I noticed that the last inch of blade near the heel is "suspended" above the board when the knife heel is all the way down. If I'm cutting w/ a chef's knife, this means the strip of veggies gets cut but it's all still held together by a thin skin where the knife didn't contact the board.

What gives? Is this supposed to be the way this knife cuts?
That is a defect borne out of carelessness. Apparently the fit and finish of these knives isn't all that great. I've never seen on a production knife.
@Lucretia: The fit and finish issues most often mentioned with regard to Carter knives have nothing to do with performance and comfort. I've seen and used a dozen or so and I own four and have seen no significant defects other than a tip broken during shipping which Murray offered to rectify.

kalaeb
04-16-2012, 03:00 PM
[QUOTE=tk59;99905] Apparently the fit and finish of these knives isn't all that great. I've never seen on a production knife.
QUOTE]

The only fit and finish issue I have seen on these knives is a slight shrinking of the wood. But to be honest, every handle I have had that came from somewhere else has had the same issue here from customs to Cocobolo. Not sure if anyone else had the issue. Apart from that, the wood is well fit against the bolster, there are no gaps in the tang, the brass is brilliantly shined, the choil is very comfy to hold, polished and rounded all the way down, as is the machi. I would give the FF substiantially above par for every other J knife we talk about here.

kalaeb
04-17-2012, 01:08 AM
Alot has been said about the amount of "flat" the ZKramer has, and it does, however, IMO the "flat" is what I like about it. Take my comments with a grain of salt, I like cleavers too...

The ZKramer has approx 10% more flat than the lusted after KS profile with the ZKramer coming in at 46% flat v. 36% on the Moritaka KS.

I did a basic comparison to some other commonly used knives and below are the percent of "flat" spots that some knives have and how the Kramer compares. The attached pictures are not the best and the amount of flat calculated was at the slightest curvature upwards, even though it is not clearly evident by the pictures.

Tojiro hammered 180mm: 41.6% flat
6189
Fujiwara 240: 27% flat
6188
DT 250: 26% flat
6187
Moritaka KS 250: 36% flat
6186
Misuno 270: 20% flat
6185
ZKramer: 46% flat
6184

NO ChoP!
04-17-2012, 09:15 AM
Matt, I love posts like that; visual info rocks. Is your zk the 8"? I think the 10" literally is an 8" with 2 extra inches of flat space...

NO ChoP!
04-17-2012, 09:16 AM
Maybe its just angle perspective.....

stevenStefano
04-17-2012, 09:31 AM
That is a very interesting set of photos Matt, thanks. Flatness is an issue that interests me. Some of my favourite knives don't have a large flat area, but have a massive sweet spot which is a whole different kettle of fish

SameGuy
04-17-2012, 09:41 AM
Is your Boardsmith uneven? Or is there a high spot in the ZK's grind right forward of the heel? Optical illusion?

mmingio2
04-17-2012, 11:29 AM
I had the exact same overgrind in my 10" version. It didn't affect performance much but it drove me nuts to look at it! One of the reasons I took it back to SLT. Bought a Konosuke 270 mm W2 instead...love it. Miss that Kramer handle though.....


Is your Boardsmith uneven? Or is there a high spot in the ZK's grind right forward of the heel? Optical illusion?

kalaeb
04-17-2012, 11:52 AM
Is your Boardsmith uneven? Or is there a high spot in the ZK's grind right forward of the heel? Optical illusion?

There is a slight high spot there.
@NO ChoP, this is the 10" version.

SameGuy
04-17-2012, 04:45 PM
Thanks for the info; I'm sure you'd have noted if it had any effect on performance. Very slick looking knife. Color me envious. :)

DeepCSweede
04-18-2012, 11:48 AM
There is a slight high spot there.
@NO ChoP, this is the 10" version.

Checked my 10" last night and it doesn't have this high spot in front of the heel and the grind was pretty decent.

Eamon Burke
04-18-2012, 12:19 PM
The view count on this thread boggles my mind

kalaeb
04-18-2012, 04:28 PM
The view count on this thread boggles my mind

When I put in Zwilling Kramer, this is the number three google pull, right behind Sur La Table and Amazon. Lots of people comming here to research, which is great for us.

Rick
04-20-2012, 11:20 PM
He is popular for sure. This is the pair of knives that he just auctioned off on his site a few days ago for... drum role... $32,100.

https://auction.kramerknives.com/uploaded/2012-4-14/b9bdff252De4782D4a4e2D90272Da7bb6c8f5543knifepair. jpg

cnochef
04-20-2012, 11:24 PM
I swear when my name comes up for the Kramer lottery, I'm thinking very seriously about just buying one and putting it up on EBay to make some quick bucks. IT seems like a certain crowd can't wait their turn and will pay just about anything to get their Kramer sooner!

Crothcipt
04-20-2012, 11:24 PM
They don't sell well on ebay.

cnochef
04-20-2012, 11:27 PM
They don't sell well on ebay.


I don't know about that, I've seen them easily go for double what he charges. Although I have to admit I haven't been paying attention to them lately.

Crothcipt
04-20-2012, 11:30 PM
I watched one start off at 8k, few months later he had it down to 5k. Then he put it on auction it sold for 4.5k from what I saw. I haven't been paying attention here recently, either.

tk59
04-20-2012, 11:42 PM
There is a slight high spot there...Okay, maybe this isn't a fit and finish issue. It's a defect either way, unless it's your sharpening that's the problem.

Johnny.B.Good
04-21-2012, 12:30 AM
They don't sell well on ebay.

Maybe potential buyers are nervous about fakes...

Crothcipt
04-21-2012, 12:33 AM
this guy had pics of the c.o.a., after a few mo. Although It did sell quicker after he posted them, and dropped the price.

I sure hope it was no one here.

jseliger
09-02-2014, 08:16 PM
He talked about his love for 52100, and he gave a Sharpening 101 demo, including a King combo stone and the Zwilling combo (250/ 1000 (!)). He deburred/ honed on a piece of cardboard in between stones

Anyone have a link to a good video or resource for this? I've been using using this Spyderco Knife Sharpener set (http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=77) for years, but apparently other tools do a better job.

iRune
12-23-2014, 02:22 PM
I don't know if this is slightly off topic but here goes.
I recently acquired an 8 inch Kramer Zwilling euroline. I noticed that the blade is not completely straight (lying flat on a table, the point is raised <1 millimeter from the surface)
Looking at the OP pictures, I think I am seeing something similar.
Is this to be expected with forged knives or is it indicative of a problem?
EDIT: I can post some pictures later if needed

gic
12-23-2014, 03:29 PM
mine has the same defect, i'm planning on returning it for a replacement...

James
12-23-2014, 03:37 PM
Is it a warp/bend or is it just the grind towards the tip? From what I remember, these have a pretty wicked distal taper so the entire blade might not lay flat.

Pensacola Tiger
12-23-2014, 05:47 PM
I don't know if this is slightly off topic but here goes.
I recently acquired an 8 inch Kramer Zwilling euroline. I noticed that the blade is not completely straight (lying flat on a table, the point is raised <1 millimeter from the surface)
Looking at the OP pictures, I think I am seeing something similar.
Is this to be expected with forged knives or is it indicative of a problem?
EDIT: I can post some pictures later if needed


mine has the same defect, i'm planning on returning it for a replacement...

That's not the way to check for a bent blade, especially one with distal taper, as James has said.

Hold the knife with the point toward you and sight down the edge. If the knife is bent, it will be readily apparent.

marc4pt0
12-23-2014, 07:07 PM
Had an 8" in carbon for almost 2 years. I swear the blade was not bent to one side when I checked it but I noticed it was earlier this year and took it back to Sur la Table and they full refunded it. I had forced mustard patina and polished that knife a few times. Even thinned it and sanded the handle smooth. They just took it back. But the 10"Carbon is just insane. I can't imagine giving that one up. It's always with me at work.

Lefty
12-25-2014, 06:48 AM
I don't like that I sold mine. It was one of my best all-arounders, for sure. But, kids need cribs to sleep in. ;)

SolidSnake03
12-27-2014, 11:23 AM
Picked up an 8' Chefs Carbon a while back and I'm set, honestly have no desire for another chefs knife/gyuto. Only thing i would love to try someday is one of the HHH production gyutos or a Pierre Rodriguez Mid Tech. Even then, im just interested in giving them a shot, dont really feel a need to cover some sort of deficiency in the Kramer (cant find one for my use)

Love every aspect of this thing and think it will only get better as it ages and patinas nicely. The 8' is perfect for a single home user that cooks mainly meals for himself. Also this is the first 8' ive used where i like the height of it (aka not too short).

The blade sharpens so easily, takes a great edge, rounded spine and choil for comfort, steller handle and build quality, thin behind the edge yet workhorse thick at the spine for all around use, crazy thin tip. This knife honestly has so much going for it, for the price i think its exceptional.

Also, ive had no handle shrink yet, been rubbing in a coating of board cream and letting it sit overnight with it on then wiping it down in the morning. I do this once a week or so and seems to work perfectly.

Anyhow, all and all this is the first knife ive owned where i just went "yup im done"

chinacats
12-27-2014, 12:01 PM
Anyhow, all and all this is the first knife ive owned where i just went "yup im done"

Congratulations!

I say that every few months :)

SolidSnake03
12-27-2014, 05:43 PM
Haha, yeh im sure ill go back on it at some point...probably with either of those that i mentioned ;)

But right now i havent seen a flaw and find it fun and enjoyable to use which is a big deal for me. Other knives have been boring for me but this one just is fun to use

Lefty
12-27-2014, 10:04 PM
Haha, yeh im sure ill go back on it at some point...probably with either of those that i mentioned ;)

But right now i havent seen a flaw and find it fun and enjoyable to use which is a big deal for me. Other knives have been boring for me but this one just is fun to use

And that is what it's all about. They're great knives!

SolidSnake03
12-28-2014, 11:24 AM
Too true! Trying so many knives has really allowed me to see what goes into making a "keeper" knife for me, its much more than just excellent grind, f&f, handle and steel. A bit part is that un-quantifiable "fun" that you feel using it. For me the Kramer has that in a Chefs knife, really would love to try the HHH someday and a Pierre but until then im very happily set!

SolidSnake03
12-28-2014, 11:57 AM
Too true! Trying so many knives has really allowed me to see what goes into making a "keeper" knife for me, its much more than just excellent grind, f&f, handle and steel. A bit part is that un-quantifiable "fun" that you feel using it. For me the Kramer has that in a Chefs knife, really would love to try the HHH someday and a Pierre but until then im very happily set!

iRune
12-30-2014, 11:57 AM
SO, after recovering from chrostmas I got a chance to take a few pictures of the slight bend. Turns out that taking informative pictures of the knife without focus stacking is harder than I thought. I might try to take some more one of these days if needed for the diagnosis.
http://i.imgur.com/B1kWFqQ.jpg?1
This pis kinda shows the problem. More pics here (though largely identical) :

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bw0IFtyk4cIQd1JwV0w0MU9TbUk&usp=sharing

johnstoc
12-31-2014, 02:10 AM
Just received my 8” ZK in 52100. I’m stoked for it but it’s a little thicker than I was expecting. I would appreciate some input from other members as to how this compares to their ZK knives. I am also comparing my measurements to those from JohnnyChance on page 9 and 10 of this thread.

Weight of my 8” is 283g, JohnnyChance measured 293 for a 10”. Only 10 grams for a 25% or 2” increase in length?

Thickness of spine: 4.09mm at the bolster (vs Johhny’s 3.87mm), 2.62mm 4” from tip (vs 1.88mm), 1.30mm 1” from tip (vs 0.68mm), 0.64mm at the tip (vs 0.18mm). Mine seems significantly thicker all the way around.

Width of blade measured at (or directly above) the primary bevel: At the choil/heel: 1.00mm thick (see choil shot), ½” forward from heel 0.60mm, ~0.45mm for much of the length of the knife, then gets thicker at 0.60mm wide at the tip. It feels like the thickness flares out near the choil in the last few mm, even right above the primary bevel.

Height up the blade at which 1.00mm thickness is achieved is approximately 10-11mm. The portion of the blade at the tip which is totally under 1.00mm thickness is 15mm. JohhnyChance measured his 10” at 43mm under 1mm total thickness.

Height of the primary bevel is in excess of 1mm.

I know the 8” and 10” may have slightly different profiles or more distal taper, but does this seem excessive for this knife? What do you make of the thickness of this ZK 8”? Please let me know if I should start my own thread, seems relevant to this mega-thread.

Choil Shot:
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj600/cajohnst92/IMG_20141229_194204_zps0b068ac9.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/cajohnst92/media/IMG_20141229_194204_zps0b068ac9.jpg.html)

Weight:
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj600/cajohnst92/IMG_20141230_173519_zps94d3a239.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/cajohnst92/media/IMG_20141230_173519_zps94d3a239.jpg.html)

Measuring thickness directly above primary bevel, at heel/choil
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj600/cajohnst92/IMG_20141230_212752_zps5982016e.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/cajohnst92/media/IMG_20141230_212752_zps5982016e.jpg.html)

Measuring thickness directly above primary bevel:
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj600/cajohnst92/IMG_20141230_212802_zps18788b54.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/cajohnst92/media/IMG_20141230_212802_zps18788b54.jpg.html)

Height of primary bevel is <1mm
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj600/cajohnst92/IMG_20141230_213958_zpsb9ba25fd.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/cajohnst92/media/IMG_20141230_213958_zpsb9ba25fd.jpg.html)

panda
12-31-2014, 02:13 AM
return that immediately

James
12-31-2014, 03:20 AM
SO, after recovering from chrostmas I got a chance to take a few pictures of the slight bend. Turns out that taking informative pictures of the knife without focus stacking is harder than I thought. I might try to take some more one of these days if needed for the diagnosis.
http://i.imgur.com/B1kWFqQ.jpg?1
This pis kinda shows the problem. More pics here (though largely identical) :

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bw0IFtyk4cIQd1JwV0w0MU9TbUk&usp=sharing

this looks bent to me. I'd return as well

panda
12-31-2014, 03:29 AM
i mean the really thick one, that thing was not finished grinding.

chefcomesback
12-31-2014, 03:56 AM
It is not ground at all , I would return it as well

Livlif
12-31-2014, 04:54 AM
Just received my 8” ZK in 52100. I’m stoked for it but it’s a little thicker than I was expecting. I would appreciate some input from other members as to how this compares to their ZK knives. I am also comparing my measurements to those from JohnnyChance on page 9 and 10 of this thread.


Sad to say but it looks like you got a dud. You should definitely return it. Where did you order it from?

johnstoc
12-31-2014, 12:07 PM
Thanks for the input, this one's headed back to SLT.

Also the choil shot may have been a little deceptive, the knife is only that thick at the heel. It's almost like they ground most of the knife and stopped before the last 1/2". That said, the rest of the knife needs a bit more grinding in my opinion.

I was really looking forward to trying out this knife both for its design and as I have never worked with 52100. Hopefully the next one looks better.

Livlif
12-31-2014, 09:53 PM
Thanks for the input, this one's headed back to SLT.

Also the choil shot may have been a little deceptive, the knife is only that thick at the heel. It's almost like they ground most of the knife and stopped before the last 1/2". That said, the rest of the knife needs a bit more grinding in my opinion.

I was really looking forward to trying out this knife both for its design and as I have never worked with 52100. Hopefully the next one looks better.



Return it to SLT. Get your money back and buy one from bed bath and beyond. They will price match SLT and you get a lifetime warranty on the knife. If anything happens you can return it and get another.

stoneray
07-15-2016, 08:58 PM
The last post is from almost two years ago.

So, is this knife still getting a lot of love from the people who own it? Using it a lot? How does it compare to your other (Japanese) beauties?

I have to say I really like the handle. I usually don't like western handles so much and prefer Wa but this one is a real exception.

I am considering having a friend bring me one back from the States and personally getting it at SLT so he can make sure there is no bent tip and hollow grind.
There still are a few SLTs which carry it at the shop.

MAS4T0
07-15-2016, 10:05 PM
There have been some threads more recently touching on these.

I had one as my first good knife and I really did enjoy it. The handle on mine shrunk noticeably (you couldn't feel it but you could see it) and the profile wasn't right for me once I got to know what I liked; the Kramer profile is basically German with a tall blade, belly and a raised tip and I've taken a liking to more French profiles which have a lower height, a flatter profile and a lower tip.

It's certainly a good capable knife if you're in the market for a knife of this style. Do you have any specific questions?

To surmise, there was nothing wrong with the knife, but it wasn't to my tastes so it was sent on to a better home.

stoneray
07-16-2016, 01:16 PM
Thanks!

Well, I was just wondering if some of the people who had proclaimed their love in this thread towards this knife are still infatuated with it. If they still regularily use it and how it compares to their other high end knifes. I understand that some (like you) don't really like the profile but it seemed that there are others who like it very much.

MAS4T0
07-16-2016, 01:51 PM
It depends on how you'll be using the knife.

If you like to rock chop, and work on a low counter (or are tall) then it's good. The belly makes it a natural rock chopper, but the high angle you have to lift the handle to in order to effectively use the tip was uncomfortable for me. If you do a lot of tip work and aren't quite tall, you would probably have the same experience.

If you are going to cut like this then the Kramer is good for you:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRvumXrbGIw

If you would prefer to cut like this (as is the case with most members here) then a more standard gyuto would work better for you:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFBQ6fwzm08

richard
07-16-2016, 02:25 PM
You can still effectively push cut with a Zwilling Kramer. I agree that the tip is higher than most knives people here are used to, and that requires some adjustment when doing tip work, and some may not like it, but I don't agree that it has as much belly that Shun and German knives do that make it only good for rock chopping.

stoneray
07-16-2016, 02:43 PM
Thanks!

I was just wondering, if you read though this thread, there are a lot of people who are very excited about this knife and if, after all this time, they are still happy with this knife. Some long time experiences...

MAS4T0
07-16-2016, 02:57 PM
You can still effectively push cut with a Zwilling Kramer. I agree that the tip is higher than most knives people here are used to, and that requires some adjustment when doing tip work, and some may not like it, but I don't agree that it has as much belly that Shun and German knives do that make it only good for rock chopping.

Absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that it's only good for rocking, I used to primarily chop with mine, but if you're not going to be rocking there are other knives which are most likely better suited for your needs.


Thanks!

I was just wondering, if you read though this thread, there are a lot of people who are very excited about this knife and if, after all this time, they are still happy with this knife. Some long time experiences...

There have been quite a few threads recently about these which may give a better perspective, so a search would probably help, the on-site search isn't the best, so try this:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kitchen+knife+forums&oq=kitchen+knife+forums&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l2j0l3.5311j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=zwilling%20kramer%20site%3Akitchenknifeforums. com

stoneray
07-16-2016, 04:58 PM
Thank you for all your help!

I've actually already been through all the relevant threads (I usually search before I ask) but not quite what I was looking for. I'm looking for long time users who can speak about their experience, perhaps those who still favour this knife and their feelings about it, and those who compare it to their other good knives (as I've already mentioned).

Also interested in problems people have with it. I think wood shrinkage or a slightly bent blade were quite common, also hollow grind or any other problems...

tjangula
07-16-2016, 06:47 PM
I think it's difficult to compare to other knives as it is not really apples to apples. It is rather unique with the profile and all… some will either love it or hate it. I have one and like it. I also have other knives I like a lot.

The 10" 52100 was my first "good" knife, but I had some issues with the handle wood shrinking and rivets exposing, and the grind was kinda weird near the tip but was not serious. Zwilling let me return it, so I did thinking I could get the limited edition carbon Damascus model for <$1k CAD (different than the SG2 chevron Damascus production model). This didn't work out so I repurchased the 10" 52100 as I missed having it, plus I'll probably never own a real Kramer lol.

The new one didn't have to grind or handle issue, but after several months here in Canada (very dry in winter) the handle suffered the same problem. The blade is straight and the only thing I've noticed after polishing out the vertical grind marks is that towards the heel the grind is kinda weird… Basically on one side it seems like they have a hollow or slight overgrind, as if they didn't taper it all the way to the handle. Hard to describe, but it's as if they ground tip to heel at a certain angle, then stopped a few mm from the choil because there is a budge of metal which is only apparent from being a pain to try and polish the other side of the hollow. On the their side the budge was more of a depression relative than the remainder of the blade (also noted when polishing… I did this side first), so I think the may have made a minor mistake.

Difficult to see, but here is the side with the bulge at the choil/heel (the outer side was kinda the opposite, was easier to polish several mm away from the heel/choil):
http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab204/tjangula/nyfe/B6AA73D7-4645-4BC4-BC8B-BB33D79299E4_zps3epvwsbb.jpg
The black dot in he hollow is sharpie ink… I measured with callipers from the cutting edge to the dot, and also from the choil/heel side… there is less than 0.5mm difference and that would also include distal taper. I don't think it will amount to a serious problem as there is a lot of metal which will go with thinning over time and then even out.

Otherwise the blade appears straight as an arrow when viewed with the tip towards you and also the cutting edge lining up with the spine. You can't expect perfection with a knife at this price point (which relatively speaking isn't high compared to some other options). If I were to return it they probably wouldn't even understand what the issue is and there's no guarantee I'd get a flawless one again. The issue only became apparent with polishing out the vertical grind marks.

All this aside I like it. Once I'm done polishing I'm going to get the handle redone and make it something special.

stoneray
07-16-2016, 07:02 PM
Thank you, very interesting post!

Do you think by oiling it, you could have prevented the handle shrinking?

May I also ask for what kind of tasks do you mostly use this knife and what kind of cutting (rocking, push, pull etc)?

When you get the handle redone, you will keep the original shape of the handle?

May I also ask how you polished out those vertical grind marks?

tjangula
07-16-2016, 07:22 PM
Thank you, very interesting post!

Do you think by oiling it, you could have prevented the handle shrinking?

May I also ask for what kind of tasks do you mostly use this knife and what kind of cutting (rocking, push, pull etc)?

When you get the handle redone, you will keep the original shape of the handle?

May I also ask how you polished out those vertical grind marks?

No problem, glad you found it helpful. I did oil it with mineral oil/bees wax from the get go but to no avail. I was told by a handle maker that the Blackwood probably wasn't dried/seasoned well which resulted in the problems. After doing some reading… Arizona ironwood, African Blackwood, and ringed gidgee don't really stabilize well (apparently doesn't penetrate beyond the surface, which gets sanded when shaping); probably others but these three came up often.

I use mine for most tasks such as meats and vegetables, usually push, sometimes pull (seems better with delicate proteins such as chicken breast) and also can do horizontal slices thru onions as the tip is nice and thin.

The plan is the keep the same style (essentially only the wood scales are removed and the metal tang forms the basis of the shape). See this thread by Dave Martell (I will be working with Dave too) for a sample of a ZK rehandle:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/27046-Kramer-Zwilling-Rehandle

I am using a series of progressively finer sand papers and 3M PSA Mylar sheets then possibly some micro abrasives. Lots of work but so far doing the initial sanding with 100 grit perpendicular to the vertical grinds is he most work

stoneray
07-16-2016, 07:48 PM
Thank you! It looks beautiful with the new handle.

Could you perhaps show a picture of the wood shrinkage?

And are there known cases where these knives have no wood shrinkage?

tjangula
07-16-2016, 08:01 PM
Here's a pic of my previous one, similar issue with the new one. Some have just sanded the rivets apparently, but I've heard they're rather thin on the top.
http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab204/tjangula/nyfe/14CDBB66-48B7-43E5-8CEA-1A2AC39A484A_zpsslolbrpi.jpg
Apparently sometimes the wood can shrink around the tang too, I saw a display one at the kitchenware store like that.

I've heard that some of them are fine. It's probably due to a more temperate climate, and perhaps with the latter production runs they tried to rush due to the popularity and used the wood prematurely (the ones with issues)?

stoneray
07-16-2016, 08:07 PM
Thanks! Is it more of a visual thing or does it affect the usage as well?

tjangula
07-16-2016, 08:08 PM
You can feel it, kinda helps with grip I suppose but still would rather not have to deal with it.

stoneray
07-17-2016, 04:07 PM
Thank you so much for your detailed posts!

It seems that overall this knife doesn't seem to get a lot of love on this forum anymore.

SolidSnake03
07-17-2016, 04:18 PM
Which in my opinion is quite silly. It's a well made knife in a good steel with good heat treat that is at a fair price with great distal taper and performance. For what you would pay for say a 8' Carbon Kramer you won't get any sort of Japanese Knife that has near that level of fit or finish or has the kind of warranty and support you get if you buy from somewhere like Cutlery and More or Sur La Table.

Further, I've spent way more than $300 on some custom knives from American and European makers and some well known Japanese ones that weren't nearly as good as this knife was out of the box (once you put a nice edge on it because the out of the box edge was just ok). The handle is excellent too so as long as you are good with a Western handle and a taller knife it is absolutely a good buy when you compare the price to other stuff out there and what you would get quality wise for it.

tjangula
07-17-2016, 04:36 PM
Well said snake, I don't think it's right to generalize the lack of recent feedback means people don't like the knife anymore

stoneray
07-17-2016, 04:57 PM
Thanks snake, great to hear! Although I have some pretty good Japanese knives, I find this knife very appealing. But since I'm buying from overseas , I will not be able to try out or return it and wanted to get some feedback from long term users...

SolidSnake03
07-17-2016, 05:17 PM
Welcome :)

I would absolutely buy one knowing that it is most definitely a good knife and stacks up very well to other stuff. Also, re-sale shouldn't be a problem at all if you didn't like it. They tend to sell on here and on eBay for fairly high prices aka you wouldn't lose much at all.

Lefty
07-17-2016, 07:13 PM
Great knife

deanb
07-17-2016, 09:48 PM
I've had this knife for five years now. It's a great knife. I originally set the bevels at about ten degrees and it's a great cutter. I use a loaded strop from time to time and have only had to take it to the stones two or three times in five years.

richard
07-18-2016, 03:56 AM
Thank you so much for your detailed posts!

It seems that overall this knife doesn't seem to get a lot of love on this forum anymore.

Well as you might see now, it was probably premature that you assumed that. Another thing to note is that the forum seems quite a bit quieter on the weekend, and a couple days isn't a long time to get opinions on a knife that has a bit of a niche ownership. I think Zwilling Kramers are good knives, have a 10" ZK Essential and an 8" ZK Meiji myself.

Iggy
07-18-2016, 05:08 AM
Hi,

I bought a ZK Kramer 52100 10 inch a few month ago 'cause I liked the design and I guessed I would never own a real Kramer and so I gave it a go while the carbons are still more or less avaiable and I'm pretty pleased with it.

Fit and Finish is really damn good. No shrinkage in the wood or anything whatsoever. Only flaw is that the blade has a slight bend to one side near the tip. Doesn't concern me much as the bend is only quite "moderate" so I didn't noticed at all in the beginning, just after taking some picture for the german knife review. Just saying, might concern someone...

But overall can't agree more... good f&f, good steel with decent ht, nice comfy handle. Only thing that it lacks for me is food release. But that's probably my only criticism.

deanb
07-18-2016, 06:04 PM
I've had this knife for five years now. It's a great knife. I originally set the bevels at about ten degrees and it's a great cutter. I use a loaded strop from time to time and have only had to take it to the stones two or three times in five years.

Just a few more comments. I have three ZK 10" chef's knives, 52100, Damascus clad SG2, and AEB-L Essential. I also have a real Bob Kramer 52100 9" chef's knife to compare to the ZKs. I haven't seen any scale shrinkage on any of them. The distal taper from the bolster to the tip and from the bolster to the heel are very similar for all four knives. I think that the heat treatment for all of these knives is also very similar, excellent. I think all the ZKs are good buys.

LucasFur
07-19-2016, 09:07 AM
Just a few more comments. I have three ZK 10" chef's knives, 52100, Damascus clad SG2, and AEB-L Essential. I also have a real Bob Kramer 52100 9" chef's knife to compare to the ZKs. I haven't seen any scale shrinkage on any of them. The distal taper from the bolster to the tip and from the bolster to the heel are very similar for all four knives. I think that the heat treatment for all of these knives is also very similar, excellent. I think all the ZKs are good buys.

never owned a real kramer but - I agree with deanb - I owned 8" of Zkramers 52100/ R2/ AEB-L versions at the same time for several months. All are "good" knives.
Though they are the same profile, they dont behave as not the same knife with different steel.
handle is biggest on the R2 - blade is thickest on 52100 - and the AEB-L, for me has the best tip for detailed work.
Gosh, I wish the 10" versions made it up here to Canada a little easier, one zwilling rep told me they were only bringing 75 10" 52100's to canada :(

bennyprofane
07-19-2016, 09:41 AM
To those who have the 52100 and the AEB-L, which one do you prefer? I've read the 52100 gets sharper...

tjangula
07-19-2016, 10:07 AM
Gosh, I wish the 10" versions made it up here to Canada a little easier, one zwilling rep told me they were only bringing 75 10" 52100's to canada :(

I spoke with WFE in Windsor, ON as well as Zwilling Canada... apparently they are discontinued in Canada effective sometime in 2014/2015, it would be nice if they brought them back. After the issues with my first one I had to order from Cutlery & More, but fortunately there was a 20% off sale at the time