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Marko Tsourkan
06-09-2011, 11:13 AM
Looking for 52100 in 1/8" thickness. I checked Aldo site and he didn't list it, so I am not sure if he carries it or not. I would very much prefer to buy from him, as I can pick it up myself and save on shipping.

As an alternative, I found a company that would sell me one sheet, roughly 19.7"x78.8" , but this is more than I need or can afford to buy right now. Would anybody be interested in a group buy? The total cost I was quoted was $490 with shipping, so roughly $6.50 per lb. I would then re-cut and resend it in flat rate boxes at cost. Anybody?

German-made 52100 (1.2067)

M

Mike Davis
06-09-2011, 11:32 AM
If you call Aldo, he might have it, just not listed. I have a huge bar of 52100....was going to have Delbert squish it...I will call him and see about doing it to 1/8". The bar i have is 96"x2" round

rockbox
06-09-2011, 11:52 AM
I think Alpha has it.

Edit:

I was wrong.

rockbox
06-09-2011, 11:55 AM
Alpha does have 1/10 and will do custom cuts for people, so you may call them and see if they will get the size that you want.

Marko Tsourkan
06-09-2011, 12:03 PM
I would prefer to buy directly from distributor. This will by far the cheapest route if you buy steel for more than a few knives.
The price I was quoted before shipping was $4.30 per lb of steel. That's cheaper than Aldo, whose prices are one of the lowest out there as steel prices go.

M

watercrawl
06-09-2011, 12:23 PM
Marko -

Unless I'm figuring something out incorrectly, that 19.7"x 78.8" x 1/8" sheet should weigh about 55 pounds (0.283 pounds/cubic inch) and at $4.30/lb = $236 which would mean you were quoted $250 for shipping? And that sheet would be more like $8.91/pound shipped. Am I figuring something out wrong or are you talking about two different places?

I would be interested in purchasing some 52100, but not at those shipped prices.

Marko Tsourkan
06-09-2011, 01:02 PM
Marko -

Unless I'm figuring something out incorrectly, that 19.7"x 78.8" x 1/8" sheet should weigh about 55 pounds (0.283 pounds/cubic inch) and at $4.30/lb = $236 which would mean you were quoted $250 for shipping? And that sheet would be more like $8.91/pound shipped. Am I figuring something out wrong or are you talking about two different places?

I would be interested in purchasing some 52100, but not at those shipped prices.

Here is the quote I got.
$325 for the steel
$162 for the shipping
The size in metric is 500mmx2000mmx3.45mm
I was told that the sheet weighs 75Lb so I was using that number for getting an average price for lb.

M

watercrawl
06-09-2011, 01:14 PM
Unless I'm completely screwing something up, that sheet weighs right at 55 pounds.

I'm going to send you a PT as well.

SpikeC
06-09-2011, 01:56 PM
I am using O1 right now, and like the way it works for me, but I might be interested in some 52100.

Marko Tsourkan
06-09-2011, 02:00 PM
So I dd a little search on density of the steel and found the following:
http://www.trafilix.com/en_pdf/102Cr6.pdf


102cR6 (1.2067, 52100) Density - 7.85 Kg/dm3
So the calculation yields the following:
200dm x 50dm x .345dm = 3450dm3
3450dm3x7.85 Kg/dm3 = 27082.5
So the sheet of this size should be roughly 27.08kg which converts into about 70lb. Close enough to the original weight quote.

This steel is a little thicker than 1/8. I can't remember if it was 3.45mm or 3.54mm. That will account for some (but not all) difference in weight calculation, using density Adam provided.

Marko Tsourkan
06-09-2011, 03:22 PM
So, I got a response regarding weight of the sheet. It's exactly 76LB. The thickness is 3.45mm (and tolerance is from 0 to .2mm) - 0.135" (0 to 0.007) so that is what makes up the discrepancy in weight.

I am very close to ordering one sheet but it would be nice if a few people would join me in a group buy. The cost of steel comes to $6.40/lb plus flat rate shipping, which I think is not bad at all.

If interested, please contact me. I will also explore a possibility to have this sheet cut in 3 pieces or so and shipped directly, though I was told I has to be moved to a different warehouse that has shears, and that will have to be added to cost. This would work best for me, as I don't have to do any cutting and shipping.

M

SpikeC
06-09-2011, 03:27 PM
So what sort of investment would you need from people to be able to make this happen?

Marko Tsourkan
06-09-2011, 03:56 PM
So what sort of investment would you need from people to be able to make this happen?

It depends if there are 2 more people who want 1/3 of the sheet each, or if there are 10 people who want a small piece that will fit a flat rate box.

Ideally, there would be 2 more people and we all take 1/3. This way the company might be able to cut the sheet in three and ship it directly to three of us.

The less ideal situation, the sheet is shipped to me, I cut it in smaller pieces and mail them out. I say it's less ideal, as I have to cut with an angle grinder (time, cost of disks, etc).

M

Michael Rader
06-10-2011, 04:30 PM
Hi Marko. I'll take 1/3 or 1/4 sheet. Whatever you work out with the other guys. E-mail me if you decide to pull the trigger and I'll send you a check.
-M

rockbox
06-10-2011, 11:08 PM
Can you ask them to cut it into 11 pieces? They could fit it in a flat rate box and you would only have to pay 15 bucks for shipping. Those board game flat rate boxes are awesome for knives. They are almost 24x12.

Marko Tsourkan
06-10-2011, 11:28 PM
Can you ask them to cut it into 11 pieces? They could fit it in a flat rate box and you would only have to pay 15 bucks for shipping. Those board game flat rate boxes are awesome for knives. They are almost 24x12.

Cutting steel by Bestar is prohibitively expensive. The warehouse where steel is located doesn't have shearing capacity and steel has to be moved to a different warehouse. The sheet would be cut into 4 x 22x22" pieces and each piece would cost $198. Shipping via UPS would be $46 to NY. So, $345 sheet would become $792 when cut in 4.

Also, the initial freight shipping quote was upped by $45 for a lift gate, so the total for 88x22" sheet delivered would be $552. Still a good deal, but for now, I decided to stick with steel I get from Aldo. The difference in thickness is only 1mm, so it might not be worth the hassle.

M

l r harner
06-12-2011, 11:02 AM
did youb ask aldo if he could grind it a bit thinner on his time saver?

Marko Tsourkan
06-12-2011, 11:04 AM
He said he is looking to send some of his stock to a company in PA to have it thinned. I would much rather buy from Aldo, but it will depend on the final price.

Chef Niloc
06-13-2011, 11:52 AM
I could be very wrong here but I think that not all 52100 is created equal? From what I have read ( Ed's book, and others ) the best 52100 for knife blades has to be forged down from thicker stock, not ground or milled. Knowing a lot of my old friends here are now getting into knife making (jealous) and using stock removal method I think the best/ only way to go is to get 52100 that has been forged down by some one who knows what they are doing. This way you can get the advantages of forged 52100 and still stock-removal a blade. Once again my knowledge in this area is limited and I could be very wrong.
Ed talks about it a little here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/177476-Best-source-for-52100

From every thing I have read Rex Walter is the best guy to get 52100 from.
http://www.dfoggknives.com/RexEWalter.htm

P.s. If you do get some from Rex or find one of our knife making friends on the bord here that has the tools to forge down and flat grind some 1/8" 52100 stock I'd go in with you just to have the stuff incase I get the itch to make some knives. I have been wanting a leather working head knife made from 52100 for some time now and have not been able to get anyone to make me one. Think I'll start a thread here to see if any of our pro's here can recommend some one.

watercrawl
06-13-2011, 12:19 PM
I just sent Rex an email to get a quote, but I have a feeling that it's not going to be pretty. If he's at $2.00/inch for 1.5" x 3/8" stock, then he's not going to be cheaper than that for 1/8" x 2.25" material me thinks. That's $30 per blade blank for 52100. I reckon, and only time will tell, that the quote is closer to $60 per piece (I asked for a quote for 1/8" x 2.25" x 15") as I bet it'll include the $1/inch for surface grinding to get it to the 1/8" and I also bet it's going to be $3.00 inch standard rate.

For a reference, I just bought enough AEB-L to make 10 gyuto's and 4 petty's for $130 which (just figuring the gyuto's) is only $13 per blade.

However, like you say, it may be better and worth it.

WildBoar
06-13-2011, 12:20 PM
That's an interesting discussion point. Yesterday Kramer basically discussed 'forging' vs stock removal from a sheet. He indicated the 52100 was forged (using machines) down to the sheets used for stamping out the blades, so even a stamped blade is really made from forged 52100. This would be a great item for Devin or Larrin to chime in on.

rockbox
06-13-2011, 01:31 PM
This is pretty much this how 99 percent of damascus knives are made.

JohnnyChance
06-13-2011, 01:36 PM
I just bought enough AEB-L to make 10 gyuto's and 4 petty's for $130 which (just figuring the gyuto's) is only $13 per blade.

Damn, starting production already?

Larrin
06-13-2011, 02:02 PM
That's an interesting discussion point. Yesterday Kramer basically discussed 'forging' vs stock removal from a sheet. He indicated the 52100 was forged (using machines) down to the sheets used for stamping out the blades, so even a stamped blade is really made from forged 52100. This would be a great item for Devin or Larrin to chime in on.
Almost all steel is forged, unless we're talking about casting to shape, which is almost non-existent in knives. It's a common misconception with all of the arguments with forged vs stock removal. The only difference is the forged blades are forged to shape. There are many makers that believe that their forging is better than what the factory can do, however. Most of them are wrong.

ajhuff
06-13-2011, 02:20 PM
Almost all steel is forged, unless we're talking about casting to shape, which is almost non-existent in knives. It's a common misconception with all of the arguments with forged vs stock removal. The only difference is the forged blades are forged to shape. There are many makers that believe that their forging is better than what the factory can do, however. Most of them are wrong.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


-AJ

Chef Niloc
06-13-2011, 08:08 PM
Almost all steel is forged, unless we're talking about casting to shape, which is almost non-existent in knives. It's a common misconception with all of the arguments with forged vs stock removal. The only difference is the forged blades are forged to shape. There are many makers that believe that their forging is better than what the factory can do, however. Most of them are wrong.
What about the whole thing with grain development do to meltable thermal cycles and the forging down via hammer vs rolling mill? I don't know much about the "magic " behind forging to shape vs stock removal, think that's a whole different discussion, my question is: is there a difference between the 52100 that Rex would make vs stuff rolled right out of a steel mill?

l r harner
06-13-2011, 10:08 PM
there is more to do wi th the heat cycles than there is with the hammer. tho then there is th e shear forces of "cold forging " that might do something

Larrin
06-13-2011, 11:44 PM
What about the whole thing with grain development do to meltable thermal cycles and the forging down via hammer vs rolling mill? I don't know much about the "magic " behind forging to shape vs stock removal, think that's a whole different discussion, my question is: is there a difference between the 52100 that Rex would make vs stuff rolled right out of a steel mill?
There is a difference: Rex forged it at too low a temperature.

Chef Niloc
06-14-2011, 02:35 AM
There is a difference: Rex forged it at too low a temperature.

Interesting for you to say so being so many master smiths say it's the best, but I have come to respect and trust your knowledge. So IYO whats would be the best raw 52100 stock to work with doing stock removal, and how would that sheet or bar be made? Is raw steel mill stuff just as good as any if one was to make a knife without usingba hammer them selves?

Chef Niloc
06-14-2011, 02:38 AM
Also assume you say that sheet rolled out at ____temp in a rolling mill, do you know of a source for the boys around here? I know your dad could do it but he is soooooo busy these days.

l r harner
06-14-2011, 09:19 AM
carpanter steel told me that they have some B52 but werre not sure on sizes or pricing (triple melt 52100) i told them i was interested in it

Marko Tsourkan
06-14-2011, 09:27 AM
Also assume you say that sheet rolled out at ____temp in a rolling mill, do you know of a source for the boys around here? I know your dad could do it but he is soooooo busy these days.

The 52100 steel I have been finding in US is made either in Germany or Austria (for Bohler-Uddeholm). Both made to the same standard, so they are practically identical. Sweden and Germany have history of quality steel production, so I doubt you can get wrong with either.

I am not sure where Aldo's steel is coming from (his W2 is German-made) but I have heat-treated his 52100 and can attest that quality is great. I have not had warping or any issues during heat treatment. I can get the steel all the way to 67RC (many data sheets list harden-ability up to 65RC) and then draw down to the hardness I want. I use Wilson Rockwell hardness tester and I have done this repeatedly.

The only thing about Aldo steel that makes it less desirable is that is a notch too thick for kitchen knives. It's an oversize 5/32, so there is a considerable grinding involved, before you make a knife that cuts very well. I spoke to Adlo and he said he might send some of his stock for thinning. I also got a feeling that his next order will include 1/8 thickness.


Marko

PS: There are other sources, but they won't sell to an end-user. You have to be a company to buy it.

Larrin
06-14-2011, 10:20 AM
As they said there aren't a lot of sources for 52100 in good knife sizes. I can't make any recommendations.

Potato42
06-24-2011, 09:45 PM
So did you end up placing an order for 52100 Marko? If so could you share where you got it from?

Marko Tsourkan
06-25-2011, 04:14 AM
So did you end up placing an order for 52100 Marko? If so could you share where you got it from?

I got it from Bestar. You do however be a company, as they don't sell to end-users or consumers.

M

Chef Niloc
06-25-2011, 10:00 AM
I got it from Bestar. You do however be a company, as they don't sell to end-users or consumers.

M

& what did you get, bar or sheet?

Marko Tsourkan
06-25-2011, 10:11 AM
& what did you get, bar or sheet?

I got two full sheets (22x88) to split with Michael Rader.

M

Chef Niloc
06-26-2011, 03:23 AM
I want some of that B52 butch is trying to get, butch keep me in mind.

Diamond G
07-05-2011, 03:22 AM
Kelly Kupples in Yakima, WA sells it by the pound and will cut to your spec size.

Ill try finding his number.

God Bless
Mike

Diamond G
07-06-2011, 01:56 AM
I ordered 20# from Aldo today. Was having to grind it down to 1/8. Will let you know when I get it how it turns out. Also did mention to tell all he had this, so I think its somthing he is wanting to carry.

God Bless
Mike

Bill Burke
07-06-2011, 02:20 AM
Kelly Kupples in Yakima, WA sells it by the pound and will cut to your spec size.

Ill try finding his number.

God Bless
Mike

5099495231 I get most of my steel from Kelly

Diamond G
07-06-2011, 02:49 PM
Thanks Bill!

I had lost his number. Great guy to work with and very knowledgable! A-1 in my book.

Marko Tsourkan
07-06-2011, 09:46 PM
Thanks Bill!

I had lost his number. Great guy to work with and very knowledgable! A-1 in my book.

Thanks guys, good to have choices. I am good for now.

M

jmforge
07-27-2011, 04:42 AM
Have any of your thought about trying some of Aldo's thin 1084FG stock? He also carries .103 W2 in narrow sheets up to 6 x 36.