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Marko Tsourkan
01-06-2014, 02:35 PM
This has been on a back burner for a long time. This is a 11.75" prototype to get a feel of geometry and profile.

52100, S-grind. As with all my knives, the blade is ground to under .005" at the edge.

It will have a western handle in quilted maple with contrasting ebony front and end cap and brass tip.

The knife will be sent to a KKF pro user who has a good experience with scimitars for feedback and recommendations.

Eventually, it will be offered as a stock knife. 8" knife in a scimitar shape will also be offered in due time.

Thanks,

Marko

21398

21399

21397

steelcity
01-06-2014, 02:40 PM
Is this going to be in AEB-L?

Marko Tsourkan
01-06-2014, 02:42 PM
This one in 52100, but I can make it in any steel, including AEB-L. I have a good amount of A2, and plan using that steel as well.

M

steelcity
01-06-2014, 02:49 PM
This could be my new grouper/red snapper whacker once it's finalized. 2014 is already looking expensive.

Marko Tsourkan
01-06-2014, 02:57 PM
It's pretty thin at the edge, meant for cutting boneless proteins. Edge would need to be thickened if it is to come in contact with fish bones.

M

Marko Tsourkan
01-06-2014, 04:26 PM
Western handle honesuki (single bevel) is the next project. I piggyback these on my regular workload to keep my sanity, i.e. to try new things.

M

Jim
01-06-2014, 05:15 PM
Sign me up!

turbochef422
01-06-2014, 08:35 PM
I use one every day at work. I've had some luck with vintage carbon from various makers off the bay

Salty dog
01-06-2014, 10:13 PM
Um, my scimitars have intimate relations with bones all the time.

Marko Tsourkan
01-07-2014, 12:34 AM
Thickening the edge (reprofiling, microbeveling) is pretty straight forward. Also, grinding thicker at the edge is not problem. This is a new type of knife for me, so I will need some feedback and guidance.

Brad Gibson
01-07-2014, 06:14 AM
this post offends me. i think of markos work as quite delicate and rediculously crafted to fit its need. is there a need for some giant sword like knife in a kitchen? absolutely not.

Salty dog
01-07-2014, 08:57 AM
11.75 isn't that huge. It looks huge in the photo.

Dardeau
01-07-2014, 09:32 AM
12" is absolutely necessary for making long, uninterrupted cuts through very large items. That is why yanagiba are made in larger sizes. Also there is a curve, so the long edge length ends up with a smaller knife with lots of useable area. My scimitar is shorter, as I bought it for medium sized pigs, but I often wished I had another couple of inches while making guide cuts for the bone saw doing chops and country style ribs. The few times I've done half cows I borrowed a 12" because I felt like I was butchering with a paring knife. I promise you whoever is cutting your cryovaced precut primals is using a knife this big, or they are being cut by laser guided machines.

Marko Tsourkan
01-07-2014, 10:57 AM
Thank you, all valid points.

This is a prototype, and as it is with prototypes, I often don't know if the knife is going to be a failure or a success. I do it to get a feel for the process, figure out pitfalls and, if successful, to send it out to get a feedback. The first knife is always a prototype and priced accordingly.

I gave this scimitar a profile that is loosely based on some no-name American scimitar I got from Son. Geometry is S-grind, not sure if it offers any advantage over straight convex, but I am familiar with this geometry and like how the knife turns out in terms of weight and sturdiness. Switching to convex would not be much of an issue, convex is one of the easier geometries to grind.

The production scimitar is going to be between 12-14" long. There will be a small version, 8" scimitar-like breaking knife to accompany the 12-14" scimitar if there is an interest in a set.

From discussions I have had with a scimitar user, I got an impression that the knife rarely comes in contact with bones, so I ground this one as thin as I grind my other knives, to about .005" at the edge. If the knife does come in contact with bones, then I will leave .015" at the edge.

At this point, this is a study project. Once I get a feedback on geometry, profile, handle ergonomics, I will incorporate this info into a second prototype or possibly a finalized knife/production knife.

Thanks for chiming in.

Marko

Salty dog
01-07-2014, 11:20 AM
If you're not doing bone-in ribeyes that's mostly true.

turbochef422
01-07-2014, 11:41 AM
I use mine for bone in ribeye s and like em alittle thicker

Chuckles
01-07-2014, 12:07 PM
I would prefer thicker. Even if it is not coming into much contact with bone (on purpose) it would be cutting through a lot of hard cold fat.

Exciting project to be sure.

Salty dog
01-07-2014, 02:10 PM
True, the fat probably takes it's toll on the edge more than anything else.

Marko Tsourkan
01-07-2014, 03:27 PM
Good points. To make an edge thicker is just a few passes on DMT Extra course plate, tip to heel, so no big deal.

M

Jim
01-07-2014, 06:39 PM
I would prefer thicker. Even if it is not coming into much contact with bone (on purpose) it would be cutting through a lot of hard cold fat.

Exciting project to be sure.


True, the fat probably takes it's toll on the edge more than anything else.

It can be like sandpaper on an old brisket packer!

brainsausage
01-07-2014, 06:43 PM
+1 on the thickness. The added weight helps too when you're doing large cuts.

Marko Tsourkan
01-07-2014, 11:16 PM
I use mine for bone in ribeye s and like em alittle thicker

Thicker at the edge or the spine?

So far I have referred to thickness on the edge only.

M

brainsausage
01-08-2014, 01:21 AM
Both, in relation to each other of course.

Marko Tsourkan
01-08-2014, 09:12 AM
How fine an edge do you finish your scimitars? About 3-5K or higher?

Salty dog
01-08-2014, 09:31 AM
and the handle should be manly.

brainsausage
01-08-2014, 02:35 PM
and the handle should be manly.

It should dispense beer and make boob jokes.

ChuckTheButcher
01-08-2014, 05:35 PM
this post offends me. i think of markos work as quite delicate and rediculously crafted to fit its need. is there a need for some giant sword like knife in a kitchen? absolutely not.

There is need for it in butchery. I'm thrilled to hear about the 8in as well. I'm glad to see you got this going Marko. The profile looks great. I think the thin behind the edge and sturdy spine is a great idea. Scimitars are not really supposed to come in contact with bones. They are more for portioning boneless sub primals. I am very excited.

turbochef422
01-08-2014, 11:00 PM
I finish mine on a king 800 and then strop.

brainsausage
01-09-2014, 01:15 AM
Keep mine pretty toothy. 1200 bester, and then strop on whatever paper is around, no steel.

Chuckles
01-09-2014, 01:20 AM
No higher than 2k for me.

Salty dog
01-10-2014, 07:28 AM
I could use a boner for the lamb but a scimitar makes short work of it when you have a bunch to do. Notice I use my cheapest one?

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f296/sebcat/IMG_0953.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/sebcat/media/IMG_0953.jpg.html)

Lefty
01-10-2014, 09:55 AM
We used to sharpen ours on the back of an electric can opener, when I was in the game. So, what, 800 grit, max? That was a tip from a butcher of over 50 years. Old-school and primitive, but it worked surprisingly well.

These look really nice, Marko.

Marko Tsourkan
02-01-2014, 01:20 AM
The scimitar is going out to a pro user for testing and feedback. Once I get feedback, I will make one for a lottery.

22001

mr drinky
02-01-2014, 01:32 AM
I can't believe I missed this whole thread. Strong work and great input. I want to see this knife.

k

mr drinky
02-01-2014, 01:34 AM
I could use a boner for the lamb but a scimitar makes short work of it when you have a bunch to do. Notice I use my cheapest one?

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f296/sebcat/IMG_0953.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/sebcat/media/IMG_0953.jpg.html)

I love that photo. Lamb is by FAR my most favorite meat. That type of porn just makes we want to seek a dark room for privacy.

k.

Marko Tsourkan
02-01-2014, 10:58 AM
The scimitar I am sending out for testing has a couple of tweaks that make sense to me, looking forward to the feedback. The handle is a man-handle, as suggested and coca-cola shape. Also look forward to the feedback.

brainsausage
02-01-2014, 11:14 AM
If you need more feedback:D

Marko Tsourkan
02-05-2014, 06:33 PM
OK, the scimitar is on its way to the tester, who also happened to have a birthday today. :)

Look forward to the feedback and suggestions for improvement. It's an exciting knife to make and I look forward to work on a version 2.0, as well as a 8" scimitar-shaped breaking knife. .

DeepCSweede
02-05-2014, 07:32 PM
Hope the birthday boy enjoys it.

chefpaulm
02-06-2014, 06:15 PM
If you get the 8" breaking knife going I would be interested in wringing it out. The best shapes for it would be forschner or wenger. Great profiles but steel could be a whole lot better. I'll try to post some pics.

Marko Tsourkan
03-24-2014, 12:22 PM
Heat treated several of these, not am thinking about size of the handle (as Salty put it, man-hanlde). It's going to be an oversize handle, but I am not sure if I should still do coca-cola shape, or just rounded corners, western.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Marko

brainsausage
03-24-2014, 01:24 PM
Rounded western. A thumb knurl on top of the handle towards the choil would be helpful as well. Some cuts need the 'cocking a pistol' grip, to get more power IMO.

Marko Tsourkan
03-24-2014, 01:34 PM
Rounded western. A thumb knurl on top of the handle towards the choil would be helpful as well. Some cuts need the 'cocking a pistol' grip, to get more power IMO.

Do you have a picture of "thumb knurl"? Not sure what it is. Also, how thick should a good handle be? I have seen a couple that were about 3/4 thick. I was thinking making the handle closer to 1" thick or so.

The blades are 12-13" long.

M

brainsausage
03-24-2014, 01:56 PM
Maybe knurl, wasn't the best terminology(haven't had my coffee yet), think thumb rest. My kits at work, so I'm not sure about thickness. But at least 1 inch.

Marko Tsourkan
03-24-2014, 02:06 PM
I might start with a basic handle, and then work up adding elements like thumb rest. I haven't seen it on kitchen knives, so it is hard for me to visualize how it would look like. I think what you are referring to is a feature on folders. If it's on the blade side, I don't see why I can't do it, but I would need a little more input on it from the pros.

M

brainsausage
03-24-2014, 02:14 PM
It's the best way I could think of describing it. One of the generic scimitars we get from the knife service at work has this on the handle. Which would be useful if the rest of the handle/knife didn't suck. It's basically just a slightly raised portion on top of the handle behind the choil. To get a long stroke, or power through some items you need to choke further back on the handle(hammer grip).

Marko Tsourkan
03-24-2014, 02:17 PM
It would be very helpful if you could take a picture of that setup. If I have a visual reference, I could replicate it.

JohnnyChance
03-24-2014, 03:07 PM
I prefer coco cola as during pull cuts it gives you the best grip, hand doesn't feel like it wants to slip off the end of the handle.

Erilyn75
03-24-2014, 04:36 PM
Now THAT is a knife! Wowza ;)

Salty dog
03-24-2014, 06:33 PM
There's a dimple on the top of some handles for the thumb. They're usually more pronounced on plastic handles. (Sorta like Dick "ergo" handles) Wood handles tend to be more subtle. You have to be aware some force is used in the handling of these knives, hence the "man handle". The thumb placement adds force. So a comfy place is nice but not mandatory. Although any handle should give a nod to the thumb.

IMO.

P.S. I say the same thing about the pinky on gyutos.

brainsausage
03-24-2014, 07:32 PM
I wasn't really paying attention earlier. By rounded western, I thought you meant your latest western style. Your latest style is the one I'd go with, just modified slightly.

Marko Tsourkan
03-24-2014, 07:58 PM
I wasn't really paying attention earlier. By rounded western, I thought you meant your latest western style. Your latest style is the one I'd go with, just modified slightly.

I will make an oversize coca-cola shape, aiming for a good grip.

mattrud
03-26-2014, 03:48 PM
I will take one!!!!

Marko Tsourkan
06-05-2014, 04:14 PM
I am finishing up my first production (up to this point, all were prototypes) scimitar. Would like to make a video of quick performance demonstration. What can I cut that is not meat - sorry don't do many primal and sub-primal cuts in the shop, to approximate a scimitar performance?:D

The geometry is S grind, the blade is stiff on the spine, but thin below, about 13" long on the edge, with oversize western handle. Thickness above the edge is comparable to old US-made pro scimitars. The profile is 1:1 copy of the old scimitar I have. 52100 with 62.5-63RC hardness, about .007-.010 at the edge.

I am way behind my work to send my finished blades for testing and video at the moment, so this knife will go directly to the knife lottery winner - daveb, but before I send out, I would like to make a quick demo.

pleue
06-05-2014, 05:17 PM
hmmm... maybe long draw cuts on a huge eggplant haha?

Marko Tsourkan
06-05-2014, 05:43 PM
hmmm... maybe long draw cuts on a huge eggplant haha?

Thanks for the suggestion. Will do that. Please keep suggesting.

M

pleue
06-05-2014, 05:57 PM
bundle of leek tops?

Dardeau
06-05-2014, 08:41 PM
An excuse to buy a whole prime rib?

mattrud
06-05-2014, 09:16 PM
I clean plenty of 107 rib eyes if you need some help or just have an extra

Marko Tsourkan
06-05-2014, 09:26 PM
I clean plenty of 107 rib eyes if you need some help or just have an extra

Can I do an internship at your place? :D Will come with all possible knives you want to try.

daveb
06-05-2014, 10:20 PM
I think a vid of knife slipping in and out of new sheath would be way cool. Big Grin

Marko Tsourkan
06-07-2014, 11:06 PM
Here are some videos

This blade is measured 13" (330mm) in straight line heel to tip, but the length of the cutting edge is actually 350mm thanks to the curve. 52100. 62.5RC. S grind. Western handle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uvp5EwxUV8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXBI-vxX91Q


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cejImCQziaQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53VAFD4JOMY

Marko Tsourkan
06-08-2014, 01:22 PM
A couple of questions for scimitar users.

The pro scimitars I have is pretty thin and light for the size. Is there an advantage (or disadvantage) in increasing the weight of this type of knife? For instance, sujis are typically thin and light, while typical yanagis are thick and heavy. Some could slice cooked proteins with yanagis just as well as with sujis. Would a heavy scimitar with S geometry be a knife to consider?

Second, is the profile for scimitar suitable to be used as a carving knife/slicer?

Thanks,

M

mattrud
06-08-2014, 07:19 PM
I want one. seriously.

Marko Tsourkan
06-09-2014, 12:38 PM
Re-posting questions that kind of hinder my progression on this type of knife.

A couple of questions for scimitar users.

The pro scimitar I have is pretty thin and light for the size. Is there an advantage (or disadvantage) in increasing the weight of this type of knife? For instance, sujis are typically thin and light, while typical yanagis are thick and heavy. Some could slice cooked proteins with yanagis just as well as with sujis. Would a heavy scimitar with S geometry (thinner cross-section, good food separation) be a knife to consider?

Second, is the profile for scimitar suitable to be used as a carving knife/slicer?

Thanks,

M

Dardeau
06-09-2014, 11:25 PM
As far as the weight I think that much like yanagibas it is the stiffness not the weight that you are looking for. Any flex in your blade is going to cause some variance in your portions. I think that thinking of the scimitar as a portioning knife, not a carving knife, is going to get you into the right track on this. I'm not saying it can't be used for carving, slicing, skinning, boning, etc. but this shape excels at cutting consistent, thick chunks of meat off of a bigger chunk of meat.
The other thing that a scimitar shines at is making long cuts down a carcass (like starting the cut to remove a pork loin and belly in one piece) where you hold it in a dagger grip, and use your left hand to pull the blade along. This is where the tip shape is useful because it is trailing behind that curve, not tearing anything up, but pushing the meat gently away from the bone. That curve would continue to be useful peeling the meat away from the ribs, letting the weight of the loin and gravity pull the meat down and separating it with a kind of twisting motion of the tip.
An S grind would almost certainly be beneficial in the scimitars' role as a portioning knife. Food release can be (no pun intended) a drag when cutting raw meat precisely. In the butchering aspect I don't know that it would help or hinder.
I can't think of anything else right now, but if something comes to me I'll post it up.

Marko Tsourkan
06-10-2014, 09:54 AM
Thanks, pretty good information here.


M

Marko Tsourkan
06-10-2014, 05:44 PM
Hmm... I guess I don't have much choice but to send the scimitar for testing. This would be my second scimitar (see earlier posts in this thread), the firs one is "missing in action" without a word on its performance. So a bit hesitant to do this again, mostly for time required to get a good feedback, but might have to do it anyway.

If you would be interested to test the knife, please post in this thread. Also please note one of the requirements for a tester is that you have to use the scimitar on a regular basis and be familiar with this type of knife.

WildBoar
06-10-2014, 06:02 PM
Why not mattrud? He's fairly local to you and he can more than put it through it's paces. And if he does not return it, you can send Son after him :groucho: I'd definitely stick to a local person since you are still SOL on the last one.

Marko Tsourkan
06-10-2014, 06:07 PM
I would like to use several testers, but yes, I will definitely include Matt and I might even drop the knife off myself.

WildBoar
06-10-2014, 06:14 PM
I would like to use several testers, but yes, I will definitely include Matt and I might even drop the knife off myself.Make sure he has dinner for you when you visit. And also when you return to pick it back up. :hungry: I'm still trying to reach the person that last had your first test knife...

Marko Tsourkan
06-10-2014, 06:20 PM
I have eaten at Matt's number of times, I wouldn't pass on a chance to dine there. Hehe.

JohnnyChance
06-10-2014, 07:59 PM
As far as the weight I think that much like yanagibas it is the stiffness not the weight that you are looking for. Any flex in your blade is going to cause some variance in your portions. I think that thinking of the scimitar as a portioning knife, not a carving knife, is going to get you into the right track on this. I'm not saying it can't be used for carving, slicing, skinning, boning, etc. but this shape excels at cutting consistent, thick chunks of meat off of a bigger chunk of meat.
The other thing that a scimitar shines at is making long cuts down a carcass (like starting the cut to remove a pork loin and belly in one piece) where you hold it in a dagger grip, and use your left hand to pull the blade along. This is where the tip shape is useful because it is trailing behind that curve, not tearing anything up, but pushing the meat gently away from the bone. That curve would continue to be useful peeling the meat away from the ribs, letting the weight of the loin and gravity pull the meat down and separating it with a kind of twisting motion of the tip.
An S grind would almost certainly be beneficial in the scimitars' role as a portioning knife. Food release can be (no pun intended) a drag when cutting raw meat precisely. In the butchering aspect I don't know that it would help or hinder.
I can't think of anything else right now, but if something comes to me I'll post it up.

I agree with this. The stiffness of my Rader scimitar is very nice when portioning and while it is thicker than others I have used, the hollow grind help with resistance. Stiffness and hollow grind are a nice combo.

Salty dog
06-10-2014, 11:21 PM
Hey Marko, feel free to message me about the scimi. Been busy but always willing to chat.

Yourbox is full

Marko Tsourkan
06-11-2014, 12:41 PM
So I am going to send this knife to mattrud, Salty and turbochef. I will limit this pass-around to three testers as I need a quick feedback. This project is long overdue and I need to put it on hold further. Sorry, Dave.

The blade is moderately stiff, though in this length there will be some flex in the first 1/3 due to distal taper and S geometry. I will make adjustments in thickness (if needed) for a production version based on feedback I will receive. S geometry is a kind of a game changer as it performs differently than a typical convex, so each prototype has to be field tested, to arrive at a good balance of weight and thickness.

Also, a scimitar in A2 steel will be coming up. I think A2 is an excellent choice for this type of knife - toughness, wear resistance, stain resistance, sharpness, sharpenability, all work in a scimitar's favor.

Marko Tsourkan
06-11-2014, 01:00 PM
Hey Marko, feel free to message me about the scimi. Been busy but always willing to chat.

Yourbox is full

Sent you an email to your msn.com mail address.

mattrud
06-11-2014, 07:55 PM
Stiff but on the thin side. Without handling the knife it looks like the profile could be a bit lower. I think a bit of weight is important as you make go through some joints and thin bones. But mainly I use a knife like this for portions, removing fat/silver skin, mainly from larger cuts.

Marko Tsourkan
06-11-2014, 08:25 PM
Stiff but on the thin side. Without handling the knife it looks like the profile could be a bit lower. I think a bit of weight is important as you make go through some joints and thin bones. But mainly I use a knife like this for portions, removing fat/silver skin, mainly from larger cuts.

The profile is a copy of an old American-made scimitar, so I will take the feedback into consideration should it need to be adjusted.

This one is stiff, but thin, so after I get some reference point on thickness, I will make the adjustments to the weight and thickness.