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JeffS
06-22-2011, 06:12 PM
Are links to CKtG being blocked? Just curious after the link here (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?1716-Usuba-Flattening&p=24720&viewfull=1#post24720).

Dave Martell
06-22-2011, 06:31 PM
I've recently made the decision to block all links going to any business related site operated by Chef Knives To Go. This decision was made for several reasons that I will not go into detail over.

Mark Richmond is not, and has not been, welcome here at KKF and now links to his websites are no longer welcome here as well.

I'm sorry for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Dave

JeffS
06-22-2011, 06:42 PM
Good to know. I'm guessing this applies to links only and we are still perfectly fine talking about products over there. Yes?

Dave Martell
06-22-2011, 07:18 PM
Good to know. I'm guessing this applies to links only and we are still perfectly fine talking about products over there. Yes?


Yes absolutely, I don't want anyone to censor themselves with regards to talking about knives, etc.

rockbox
06-22-2011, 07:28 PM
I think you are screwing some of the knife makers on the board because they still have a relationship with Mark and sell their goods through him.

kalaeb
06-22-2011, 07:28 PM
Certainly I agree that any forum owner can do what they like, but it should be considered that blocking anything from said site can directly affect well established and credible contributors on this forum: Rader, Thomas, and potentially more. While I realize this is not a democracy, can't we be a little more laissez faire?

Dave Martell
06-22-2011, 07:32 PM
I've considered everything that can be considered in this matter and while I prefer NOT to take this action (as I have since the beginning) I now feel it's the only choice I can make given the circumstances.

I knew that this wouldn't be popular, I knew that it will make me look bad, I know that many vendors work with him and this will not help their efforts but yet I still felt the need to do it anyway.

Marko Tsourkan
06-22-2011, 11:49 PM
I think you are screwing some of the knife makers on the board because they still have a relationship with Mark and sell their goods through him.

I don't see how this would prevent a maker to post a note on his sup-forum (or a member to post a note for him - it's becoming almost customary) that a particular knife is available at CKTG. To find products on CKTG website is not difficult and one also can call and do the purchase (or be guided to) over the phone.

So I honestly don't see how this would 'screw' anybody.

M

Eamon Burke
06-23-2011, 12:14 AM
*edit *

my bad, there's another thread about my question.

Eamon Burke
06-23-2011, 12:27 AM
Marko, it would keep them from doing that, because you can't tell anyone what "CKTG" is, because it looks like this: **************.com


I admittedly forgot that you stated you began this forum with a "small is beautiful" motif, and I whether I agree or not, I don't see anything wrong with that concept. But the thing is, what am I, as a part of this community, supposed to do when the "little guys" equals nobody. I recently tried to suggest someone buy a Tojiro Shirogami Nakiri. In line with this level of censorship, I should have said to myself "boy, there is a great knife for this guy, but too bad I can't tell him about it." because there is one website on the internet that sells it, amongst other things. Is the CCK1303 relegated to an artifact of the good old days, even though someone keeps them in stock?

I get that you don't like him, but his store is one that sells things people want, and some things exclusively.



There are ways of handling this that don't involve you doing to Mark the same kind of thing people did to you before. Heck, post a sticky saying "list of sites we don't like" or something, and explain to new guys why you choose to support businesses as small as possible.

Google "Kitchen knife". He's on the front page. You will never kill his website, there will always be new people here bringing it up, and this issue will never die.



My problem is not that you don't want your forum supporting CKTG, it's that there are things that CKTG has that you, or ANYONE else carries. Want to suggest Chromium Oxide paste? The aforementioned CCK cleaver or Tojiro White Steel Nakiri? Too bad!

I don't like your personal/professional issues affecting this community's ability to grow and be the way it wants, but even if I did, this isn't workable. It's simply not a long-term solution.


*edit* A good example of the kind of thing I was suggesting is Straightrazorplace.com's sticky about Gold Dollar razors (http://straightrazorplace.com/razors/50411-about-gold-dollar-razors.html).

SpikeC
06-23-2011, 12:29 AM
I agree with Marko, not having a link to a site does not stop someone from going there, and references in posts aren't censored as far as I can tell.

Eamon Burke
06-23-2011, 12:46 AM
I only posted revised copypasta here from the other thread, but I get the idea now that Dave only wants to keep from having links to cktg? Not to quell discussion of it? I know posting links on other webpages is good for their search engine data, and posting links to CKTG here would be, effectively, free promotional advertising to the general public.

My feelings on this issue may be coming off that I am a CKTG fanboy, but I am just not on the "for side" in this issue. Heck, I don't shop at Wal-Mart, Target, Home Depot, Sears, 7-11, Quik-Trip, the list goes on. I don't buy store brand products(unless I am a complete broke ass and feeding my kids. When I was single I'd rather starve). I certainly get the concern. I love that Mark has a focus of just giving customers what they want, but I do also understand how that can go wrong for the people, by dominating so highly you suffocate every market. I am planning and forming my own business, and I appreciate business success, but I think there needs to be a "stop-point" for growth.

Is there some way to keep from editing it out of the posts themselves, like some kind of Voldemort scheme? My official suggestion is that if you have a way to prevent links to large super-retailers, then do it, and post a sticky with a list of the sites considered "too big".

Marko Tsourkan
06-23-2011, 02:00 AM
Comes to mind how in the past news spread about JWW having Shigefusa for sale. There would be a post like "JWW has one 240mm Kitaeji Gyuto for Sale. Call Jennie" and then next minute, you are on the phone calling. So, why can't, say, Devin, Michael or Pierre post something in their sub forum saying that their knives are available at CKTG? I honestly see no reason why they wouldn't. I would would, if I were in their shoes.

Why do you guys have to have a link to a product? There is a Search Box in almost every site, so just type in what you are looking for and it will take you to the product.

M

UglyJoe
06-23-2011, 02:05 AM
JD, I don't think the issue is so much that Mark's store is too big, but that he sells himself as an expert in knives when he simply isn't, and that that can lead to major problems for customers and others. For instance, there have been several threads about Moritaka grind issues that have cropped up the past few weeks. On the other forum, when these issues were coming to light, Mark basically told everyone to buy from him and he would check every knife he sold to make sure you got a "good one". Nevertheless, many of those "checked" knives had the grind issues, inexperienced users bought and used them from CKtG, and then after a few sharpenings or a trip to Dave's they realized they had dud knives. Furthermore there has been issues in the past where others who have spent a lot of time, money, and effort selecting sharpening equipment, particularly stones, and once the stones were established as stones that customers wanted by those who had tested them and suggested them, Mark kind of swooped in and undercut the other vendors by just a few dollars, making their effort and work wasted. And then there are things like natural stones, where Mark is clearly not an expert at all, doesn't test the stones to the extent that say Maxim does, but sells lots of them to people who really don't know what they need in a natural, etc.

The idea behind these forums and the vendors that Dave wants to promote is that they really know what they are talking about and have a passion for knives first and running a business to make money second. In general, vendors like that are going to cost more - they put more attention to detail with every customer transaction, and are willing to talk customers through to knives, etc. that they don't even sell. I've experienced this a few times with vendors here myself. Because of the additional costs associated with running a business this way, these types of vendors are the ones who are most hurt by CKtG, because their items typically sell for 5-10% more, and that's generally enough to push many buyers to the lower priced item, regardless of service. As such CKtG is kind of in direct opposition to what Dave is trying to foster here, and ergo I have no problem with Dave not wanted that site linked to from here.

mr drinky
06-23-2011, 02:08 AM
Mark at CKTG sells a copy of that one.

You can also make one yourself. A simple broomstick handle with a notch cut in it works wonders. Careful with tips though - snappy stuff. :)

This was a quote from an earlier post where Dave even mentions CKTG about a knife straightener. I'll give Dave the benefit of the doubt here as I think there are some delicate issues that make this a difficult decision.

With that said, the lack of Mark's Shop being mentioned here has driven me to his facebook page/commercial site more often and I also check knifeforums just to peek at what is going on over there (as I am sure he checks this site out). A lot of actions have unintended consequences.

k.

Eamon Burke
06-23-2011, 02:14 AM
The reason I am saying that it isn't a solution is because there is no way to tell people who aren't in the existing in-crowd what the hell "cktg" means. It was the most annoying part of learning about knives(or anything) on forums. People saying "If you want a ffg 240 j-blade in vg-10, get a DP from cktg and send it to jks." You can't Google these things, and by requiring we use some indescribable acronym easily crosses the line from convenient to elitist. A sticky explaining what CKTG, HA, and whatever else makes the prohibition list and why you can't speak their names would solve this.

I have been on these forums for years now, but I still remember that it took me about 4 months of daily reading before I knew what the posts were even talking about--almost exclusively because of acronyms.

Marko Tsourkan
06-23-2011, 02:18 AM
Drinky,
I haven't forgotten about the sticks, just didn't get to it yet. I will be straightening some uyamago tamgsvery soon, so out of two I mke, one is for you.

M
PS:I haven't forgotten the outline of the suji either. Just thins are a little slower in my land. :)

UglyJoe
06-23-2011, 02:30 AM
The reason I am saying that it isn't a solution is because there is no way to tell people who aren't in the existing in-crowd what the hell "cktg" means. It was the most annoying part of learning about knives(or anything) on forums. People saying "If you want a ffg 240 j-blade in vg-10, get a DP from cktg and send it to jks." You can't Google these things, and by requiring we use some indescribable acronym easily crosses the line from convenient to elitist. A sticky explaining what CKTG, HA, and whatever else makes the prohibition list and why you can't speak their names would solve this.

I have been on these forums for years now, but I still remember that it took me about 4 months of daily reading before I knew what the posts were even talking about--almost exclusively because of acronyms.

I understand this, but at the same time, that's kind of the point. Forcing people to take the time to learn what these things stand for makes them educate themselves to some degree. I think as a community we would rather new posters take the time to learn about knives and make an informed decision than to have someone say "Go buy a Tojiro from www.**************.com, it's cheap and you can learn on it". Someone who just wants to buy a set of knives as a wedding gift are going to buy from the big boys (SLT, WS, CAM, etc.) or they're going to do a minimum of searching and find CKTG easily enough. Heck, I found CKTG before I ever even heard of knife forums of any kind.

goodchef1
06-23-2011, 02:31 AM
censorship for personal reasons on any forum I believe damages credibility. :( wasn't this type of actions on the other forum the reason this was created? I highly doubt that Mark's passion for money more then the goods he sells is the reason his links are blocked.

mr drinky
06-23-2011, 02:33 AM
Drinky,
I haven't forgotten about the sticks, just didn't get to it yet. I will be straightening some uyamago tamgsvery soon, so out of two I mke, one is for you.

M
PS:I haven't forgotten the outline of the suji either. Just thins are a little slower in my land. :)

No problem, man. I don't want my things getting in the way of your new WIP knife porn ;)

k.

UglyJoe
06-23-2011, 02:36 AM
Again, it's NOT the "passion for money". It's that some vendors have sold themselves as experts in a field that they clearly aren't experts in. I remember Mark learning to hand sharpen for the first time. Within a matter of a few weeks, he started posting a series on sharpening knives that to the uninformed buyer on his website would make them think he was an expert knife sharpener. Which leads to things like videos of using an edgepro and pushing other sharpening devices, which *most* posters on here would agree is an expensive and certainly less useful thing for new sharpeners to be using. It's one thing to be a retailer, and another to sell yourself as an expert in the field, particularly when you are hurting the business of those who ARE experts in that field. This forum was set up in part to encourage people to turn to those who really know their stuff and will try to meet your needs as best as they can. If every thread that starts with "What knife to buy..." ends up with "Go to CKtG" then that kind of defeats part of the purpose of this forum.

Dave Martell
06-23-2011, 02:37 AM
For the record, the company name "Chef Knives To Go" isn't blocked.

JohnnyChance
06-23-2011, 02:37 AM
I have been on these forums for years now, but I still remember that it took me about 4 months of daily reading before I knew what the posts were even talking about--almost exclusively because of acronyms.

Yeah, when I first started it felt like I would never get the hang of it. At Tom's forum I posted a set of links that had a little description of each site, the name of the person behind it (as often people say, just call Koki, email Stefan, etc) and the acronym for the site. I posted part of it in the wood vendor thread, and the majority of the knife makers I had links for actually have subforums here so that wasn't really relevant. I just didn't post the retailers because all the dogs were sleeping at the time :)

Eamon Burke
06-23-2011, 02:46 AM
I understand this, but at the same time, that's kind of the point. Forcing people to take the time to learn what these things stand for makes them educate themselves to some degree. I think as a community we would rather new posters take the time to learn about knives and make an informed decision than to have someone say "Go buy a Tojiro from www.**************.com, it's cheap and you can learn on it". Someone who just wants to buy a set of knives as a wedding gift are going to buy from the big boys (SLT, WS, CAM, etc.) or they're going to do a minimum of searching and find CKTG easily enough. Heck, I found CKTG before I ever even heard of knife forums of any kind.

I see where you are coming from, even if I disagree with the sentiment a little. You and Dave have won me over. :thumbsup:


Therefore, I am volunteering myself to start keeping up with a list of acronyms and specialist terminology.

I am massively overextended in my personal and professional life, but my internal wiring will not let me rest on this kind of thing, it is one of my passions.

Dave, if I started making a list/resource like this, would you sponsor it with your occasional help, and sticky it somewhere? I'm very strongly interested in the future success of this site, and I would like the chance to create a welcoming, helpful space for new people who want answers and information about kitchen cutlery.

Dave Martell
06-23-2011, 02:53 AM
Dave, if I started making a list/resource like this, would you sponsor it with your occasional help, and sticky it somewhere? I'm very strongly interested in the future success of this site, and I would like the chance to create a welcoming, helpful space for new people who want answers and information about kitchen cutlery.


Absolutely - yes I'd love to have something like this available. We've already got a Kitchen Knife Knowledge forum (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forumdisplay.php?9-Kitchen-Knife-Knowledge) all set and waiting. This is one of the areas of the forums that is under developed/used and anything like this that can be added is welcome.

Thanks for the offer! :)

Dave Martell
06-23-2011, 02:56 AM
For the record, the company name "Chef Knives To Go" isn't blocked.

The idea here isn't to censor what's being talked about or where to buy something, just that the direct links to CKTG business sites are no longer allowed. I hope that everyone understands this point, this is very important.

JohnnyChance
06-23-2011, 02:56 AM
Dave, if I started making a list/resource like this, would you sponsor it with your occasional help, and sticky it somewhere? I'm very strongly interested in the future success of this site, and I would like the chance to create a welcoming, helpful space for new people who want answers and information about kitchen cutlery.

A disclaimer saying that some non-local (to this forum) vendors cannot be directly linked, in an effort to promote our local, trusted (and paying) vendors. I think that would prevent new people from posting new threads saying "why is my link broken" or "why is my post censored" and the whole issue being dragged into the light again.

Eamon Burke
06-23-2011, 03:01 AM
Absolutely - yes I'd love to have something like this available. We've already got a Kitchen Knife Knowledge forum (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forumdisplay.php?9-Kitchen-Knife-Knowledge) all set and waiting. This is one of the areas of the forums that is under developed/used and anything like this that can be added is welcome.

Thanks for the offer! :)

Alright sounds like a plan.

El Pescador
06-23-2011, 03:30 AM
Google any of those products you mentioned and a for sale listing pops up on CKTG. Many of the founding members of this site actually support Dave's decision. If people want to buy something and Googling is beyond them then they got other problems.

Pesky

Michael Rader
06-23-2011, 12:03 PM
Hi guys, my name was mentioned earlier and I must say that as a vendor that has sold knives occasionally with ***** for over two years, I do not have a problem with this decision.
-M

so_sleepy
06-23-2011, 02:04 PM
In the world of google, any link is an endorsement that increases a busines' page rank. If Dave doesn't want to help CKTG, he has to block links. Given their history, this is perfectly justifiable.

The other shenanigans won't gain any new friends though.

bprescot
06-23-2011, 03:38 PM
The idea here isn't to censor what's being talked about or where to buy something, just that the direct links to CKTG business sites are no longer allowed. I hope that everyone understands this point, this is very important.

************************************************** **************
EDIT: Alright, I'm having "poster's regret". I am well and truly conflicted about posting this publicly since I addressed it specifically to Dave. I'm going to leave it, but just wanted to make clear that I'm not trying to call anyone out or "start any sh!t" as the kid's might call it. Just trying to voice what I think might be a common set of questions in an active thread about the topic. I just want to make clear I'm not trying to call anyone to the mat.
************************************************** **************


Hi Dave,

If you meant, "I hope everyone understands that only direct links to CKTG are being blocked, not mention of the store or discussions of the store's products", sure. But if you meant "I hope everyone understands why direct links to the site are being blocked", I admit I'm still a bit confused. Some have mentioned SEO as a rationale. I really hope that isn't it, because that would be a weak reason if true. Slightly stronger would be if we had a general rule to block all links to vendor sites not directly affiliated with KKF. That seems similar to what I think KF had done, but KF did it to get more advertisers, I think. If the rule is that this forum will only foster and link to small artisans and makers, fine. But let's also ensure no links to WS, SLT, Cutleryandmore, etc.

I just really really don't want the rationale to be Mark specific unless, of course, he's done something that affects the entire community. Aside from critiques of representing himself as an expert after less than a year of heavy involvement in "our world", I'm not aware of anything he's done that screws the community. If it's business practices, sure no problem. But every similar store should share the same fate, no?

Ultimately this is your forum and your rules, and you don't necessarily owe anyone any sort of explanation. We're all cool with that. This is, after all, largely your, Ryan's and Jim's tree-fort, to borrow another member's analogy. I'm just trying to better understand that tree-fort's rules.

Dave Martell
06-23-2011, 04:00 PM
There were a lot of reasons that I could have selected as good cause from the very beginning of KKF as reason enough to block Mark's links but I didn't. Recently there have been things that have added onto the pile that have changed my mind and caused this reaction. As much as I would love to share all things with everybody I won't because I know it's a bad idea to do this. It's bad for the community (more fighting) and it's bad for my business as I am judged (through association) by what I say and do even when the subject doesn't have anything to do with me. In some ways even the decision to block CKTG links is being held against me as a poor decision and I am judged negatively for this when this is not a situation to which I created, it's a situation that I'm reacting to. I've made this decision for the greater good and to protect the interests of KKF.

I think it's important to note that the other moderators and admin had no part in this decision, I made this rule myself and it's my sole responsibility. Please don't include those guys in this, they had nothing to do with it, and they may not even like it themselves.

Jim
06-23-2011, 04:28 PM
Speaking as just a member and someone who has been around the block a few times on internet forums, I am always a little surprised that anyone really thinks there is free speech. It's not free, Dave is footing the bill and gets to say what kind of party we are going to have here. I am grateful for that.

While not privy to all parts of the story I am confidant that Dave has tried to come to some other solution other than this action, which as he said was the last resort, not the first....

bieniek
06-23-2011, 05:43 PM
Damn.
Now I understand why that fella from CKTG smashes edge of some knife on the side of the stone in one of his "sharpening-videos", and when he talks about a knife he recommends its looking similar to this:
"this is good, it better than shun because i say so and its cheaper...really good, its better. Good, OK?"
And knives on website are lacking passionate descriptions.

Plus I dont know about any other shite with him involved, but I strongly believe in morality and "the way of the warrior".

Thanks, I will definitely not use that website again

jwpark
06-23-2011, 05:53 PM
Damn.
Now I understand why that fella from CKTG smashes edge of some knife on the side of the stone in one of his "sharpening-videos", and when he talks about a knife he recommends its looking similar to this:
"this is good, it better than shun because i say so and its cheaper...really good, its better. Good, OK?"
And knives on website are lacking passionate descriptions.

Plus I dont know about any other shite with him involved, but I strongly believe in morality and "the way of the warrior".

Thanks, I will definitely not use that website again

+1

I want to say more stuff about Mark at CKTG but, I'm gonna hold my tongue.

mhlee
06-23-2011, 06:25 PM
+1

I want to say more stuff about Mark at CKTG but, I'm gonna hold my tongue.

+1

sudsy9977
06-23-2011, 08:41 PM
JD, I don't think the issue is so much that Mark's store is too big, but that he sells himself as an expert in knives when he simply isn't, and that that can lead to major problems for customers and others. For instance, there have been several threads about Moritaka grind issues that have cropped up the past few weeks. On the other forum, when these issues were coming to light, Mark basically told everyone to buy from him and he would check every knife he sold to make sure you got a "good one". Nevertheless, many of those "checked" knives had the grind issues, inexperienced users bought and used them from CKtG, and then after a few sharpenings or a trip to Dave's they realized they had dud knives. Furthermore there has been issues in the past where others who have spent a lot of time, money, and effort selecting sharpening equipment, particularly stones, and once the stones were established as stones that customers wanted by those who had tested them and suggested them, Mark kind of swooped in and undercut the other vendors by just a few dollars, making their effort and work wasted. And then there are things like natural stones, where Mark is clearly not an expert at all, doesn't test the stones to the extent that say Maxim does, but sells lots of them to people who really don't know what they need in a natural, etc.

The idea behind these forums and the vendors that Dave wants to promote is that they really know what they are talking about and have a passion for knives first and running a business to make money second. In general, vendors like that are going to cost more - they put more attention to detail with every customer transaction, and are willing to talk customers through to knives, etc. that they don't even sell. I've experienced this a few times with vendors here myself. Because of the additional costs associated with running a business this way, these types of vendors are the ones who are most hurt by CKtG, because their items typically sell for 5-10% more, and that's generally enough to push many buyers to the lower priced item, regardless of service. As such CKtG is kind of in direct opposition to what Dave is trying to foster here, and ergo I have no problem with Dave not wanted that site linked to from here.






joe i just wanted to quote this one....u hit the nail on the head if u ask me....u go tot th ehead of the class....ryan

sudsy9977
06-23-2011, 08:48 PM
jim....u make a good point....i don't have a problem with dave blocking the links....yeah i am a friend of dave's....that has nothing to do with it......he can block anything he feels like if u ask me.....this is a good community of people here i think and it seems like it still is growing.....hope it never stops....ryan

chazmtb
06-23-2011, 10:59 PM
Good for you Dave and your site. I support your decision 100%.

Andrew H
06-23-2011, 11:05 PM
Why on earth would you give him free advertising?
Good decision.

goodchef1
06-23-2011, 11:14 PM
Heehee, I'm just glad that Dave did not pour out all his reasons and open up another can of worms. Time to put this to bed and move on.

Marko Tsourkan
06-23-2011, 11:19 PM
Heehee, I'm just glad that Dave did not pour out all his reasons and open up another can of worms. Time to put this to bed and move on.

Amen

apicius9
06-23-2011, 11:28 PM
Yesterday I was out with a migraine, and whenever I looked at these threads, the headaches came back... I am sure there are lots of details that played behind the scenes, but I really don't want to know and hope we can look forward and build up on the great start we had with this place. I have no problems with limiting links to selected businesses. I am not a friend of limiting free speech, but that doesn't seem to be the case here, so I am fine with whatever Dave implements.

Stefan

UglyJoe
06-24-2011, 12:29 AM
joe i just wanted to quote this one....u hit the nail on the head if u ask me....u go tot th ehead of the class....ryan

Yay! Since I'm at the head of the class, does that mean I get a free knife of my choosing? Purdy please??

rockbox
06-24-2011, 12:53 AM
After thinking about it for a while, Mark was mainly responsible for getting Dave kicked off of KF, so I understand. I just don't think its for our benefit. Conflicts of interests are a part of life, and I of all people should know this. None of us are saints, but fortunately there are some knife making gods on this board.

echerub
06-24-2011, 01:05 AM
CKTG does sell some stuff exclusively - like Devin's fine mid-tech line - and I've found Mark's service to be good. Some others go a step beyond, and I love 'em for it, but I have been happy with my orders from CKTG. I can't say anything about expertise, since I didn't lean on it prior to placing my orders.

As long as discussion or reference to about anything exclusive to, or readily found on, CKTG isn't blocked or curtailed, then I am okay with blocking direct links. I don't see it as a big deal, but I have to say that it does make me raise an eyebrow a bit.

tk59
06-24-2011, 01:23 AM
...Mark was mainly responsible for getting Dave kicked off of KF... Sort of. A simple way of looking at it is Mark et al arguably used Dave's own expertise to essentially put him out of business/force him to switch businesses. Dave got pissed and couldn't help but heckle them every chance he got (and still does). Somehow the cavemods got involved and Dave imploded and KKF was born. Sort of like the Big Bang Theory...sorta.

jwpark
06-24-2011, 04:06 AM
On second thought, I'm gonna bite my tongue on what I want to say about Mark.

But I'm happy with Dave's decision on blocking CKTG. I've made a point of not buying anything from there, at least directly.

Jay

jwpark
06-24-2011, 04:30 AM
Sort of. A simple way of looking at it is Mark et al arguably used Dave's own expertise to essentially put him out of business/force him to switch businesses. Dave got pissed and couldn't help but heckle them every chance he got (and still does). Somehow the cavemods got involved and Dave imploded and KKF was born. Sort of like the Big Bang Theory...sorta.

I'm not sure how much Dave is pissed at that, but I think it's more so because Mark put's making a sale before keeping the trust of member.

Chef Niloc
06-24-2011, 04:37 AM
How about links to kens sight and YouTube vadios, are they ok to post?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JikHNG5llnM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

apicius9
06-24-2011, 05:01 AM
Ouch...

Cipcich
06-24-2011, 06:41 AM
How about links to kens sight and YouTube vadios, are they ok to post?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JikHNG5llnM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Not this one. Better to make fun of people who can't spell.

The BoardSMITH
06-24-2011, 07:09 AM
This forum was started by Dave and, as far as I am concerned, he can do whatever he wishes with it. It isn't my responsibility to police his policies or try to change his mind.

I may be a lot of things, good or bad, but I am loyal to a fault. Dave is the reason I joined KF, he is a customer, I am a customer of his, we had a business relationship and during that period I found him to be honest and forthright 100%. When the bully at KF jumped me because he didn't like for me to talk about my boards, Dave stood up for me. Dave is the reason I'm here on KKF and I gladly paid my vendor fee even though I don't show that many of the boards I make.

mainaman
06-24-2011, 08:38 AM
How about links to kens sight
that will be a waste of server space

Eamon Burke
06-24-2011, 09:08 AM
I gladly paid my vendor fee even though I don't show that many of the boards I make.

That's easy to fix!

Marko Tsourkan
06-24-2011, 10:15 AM
Rather than beating a dead horse, we should conclude that majority of people who left KF are likely to support Dave's decision. I don't see how any maker will be affected by it, and to argue that this move construes worrisome signs of things to come, I don't buy it. I for one, support it.

I think Dave has learned a few things from the implosion of the Knife Forum and Jim is very seasoned moderator - I believe he is also a moderator on a forum about 8 times this big. The forum is in good hands.

Personally, I am happier here. There is plenty of interesting content, friendly competition among vendors/makers (and cooperation), no hidden religious or political messages, no guns, no arrogance. This forum sticks to it's intended purpose - kitchen knives and related stuff and I want to compliment Dave and mods on this.

So, let's close this chapter and move on and never stop learning.

M

chazmtb
06-24-2011, 10:59 AM
This is the attitude that will make this forum a great place to be. It is a great format filled with great people.
Thanks Dave, Jim and everyone else.

mr drinky
06-24-2011, 12:10 PM
I think we should create a sign up thread where members can agree to self-censor themselves about the past KF issue and let things rest. It was a bad period of time (like when I had acne and couldn't pick up girls).

Isn't it Say's Law that says 'supply creates its own demand'. Though there are a lot of questions and things people want to say (including myself), saying more just demands more to be said IMO. On this topic and any future one related to this issue, I am bowing out.

Or do I have to wait until 1 July (just kidding).

k.

Dave Martell
06-24-2011, 01:07 PM
How about links to kens sight and YouTube vadios, are they ok to post?



Ken is another person who isn't welcome here. I haven't bothered to block his links because he's more or less insignificant in many ways. I believe that he is cancerous to the community though and will never be allowed here at KKF. We don't need people who pretend to be something other than what they really are, people who fake credibility, people who are instant experts - that's called deceit in my book and it's bad stuff. Anyone with half of one active brain cell can tell who/what Ken really is but regardless I will not allow him to infect the community anymore than he already has and if KKF is all that I can protect then I will do just that.

Sorry to go off on a rant here but his BS level gets me riled up every time I think about it.

bieniek
06-24-2011, 05:11 PM
But hey, You mean Ken Onion?? :D

steeley
06-24-2011, 08:40 PM
This made me vomit a little in my mouth {may the schwartz be with you} :vmc::moon:

BertMor
06-25-2011, 09:29 AM
I think that if Dave wants to restrict mentioning/promoting a business thats fine, considering they mounted a smear campaign. Why should he promote a competitor who has not dealt fairly in the marketplace? And frankly, Mark is not nearly as knowledgeable. He learned everything he knows from ITK. From US ( Dave specifically in a way) And that is how he thanked Dave.

If all you care about is price, go ahead make Mark's day its like buying at Costco. If you want outstanding service and experienced knowledge go to Dave.

BertMor
06-25-2011, 09:32 AM
Ken is another person who isn't welcome here. I haven't bothered to block his links because he's more or less insignificant in many ways. I believe that he is cancerous to the community though and will never be allowed here at KKF. We don't need people who pretend to be something other than what they really are, people who fake credibility, people who are instant experts - that's called deceit in my book and it's bad stuff. Anyone with half of one active brain cell can tell who/what Ken really is but regardless I will not allow him to infect the community anymore than he already has and if KKF is all that I can protect then I will do just that.

Sorry to go off on a rant here but his BS level gets me riled up every time I think about it.

Hear, hear +10

BertMor
06-26-2011, 07:55 AM
I would like to personally and publicly apologise to Ken and Mark for calling them out in such a manner. It was wrong of me, and not my place. I am sorry if I hurt anyones feelings.

Salty dog
06-26-2011, 10:30 AM
Hitting the Manischewitz again?

BertMor
06-26-2011, 06:57 PM
I gave up the Mani when I was 13 and got drunk on 4 full glasses on Passover.