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dannynyc
03-18-2014, 10:39 AM
I feel a little bit bad taking the time to write a post just to trash a vendor, but I just have to vent here.

I have had a Boardsmith cutting board for years. It's a great board, and I have recommend BS to many posters looking for cutting board recommendations.

Yesterday I was trying to pull the trigger on a new item, but I could not get the website to work. I kept hitting a jam where I was asked to put in a zip code before shipping costs could be calculated, but it kept not working (yes, the shipping address was in the U.S.). I tried many times, then finally wrote Dave and suggested that he might be losing out on business from frustrated customers in my position who weren't willing to spend the energy to go to him for help.

You'd think that a vendor would want to assist his customer in making a purchase: instead, I got a snarky, condescending email from him suggesting that I was just too clueless to do this correctly. Putting aside that I am a pretty smart guy with tons of experience buying things online from all sorts of vendors, I really could not believe that someone who is not only selling expensive products, but who is marketing to a pretty small audience who tend to communicate with one another (such as on this forum), chose, instead of trying to help me (say, by offering to call me up, or suggesting I call him, or saying anything helpful at all), rudely blew me off. I wrote back and gave him several chances to either apologize or be helpful, but he kept digging in his heels, and insisted the problem must be at my end.

When buying anything, including knives and related wares, quality is the most important factor. But I'll be damned if I'm going to give my hard-earned money to a vendor who can't even treat me with basic respect. I don't know if this is function of success going to his head and taking his customers for granted, but this whole experience really pi**ed me off, and I won't be shopping there again, nor will I recommend his products.

Ok, that's my rant. Make of it what you will.

WildBoar
03-18-2014, 10:51 AM
Hard to think much one way or the other without seeing the text of your helpful email. Doubt your post is going to survive long anyway. I know the way Dave crafts his emails sometimes make them read with a different tone than he may mean them to. I've always found it best to call him. And I think it's too bad you put so much info into this post when you could have simpoly called him. Many of the vendors here are craftsmen, not people who sit in front of computers crafting Word documents and emails all day long; I definitely try to keep that in mind when corresponding with many of these guys.

jamaster14
03-18-2014, 11:06 AM
I feel a little bit bad taking the time to write a post just to trash a vendor, but I just have to vent here.

I have had a Boardsmith cutting board for years. It's a great board, and I have recommend BS to many posters looking for cutting board recommendations.

Yesterday I was trying to pull the trigger on a new item, but I could not get the website to work. I kept hitting a jam where I was asked to put in a zip code before shipping costs could be calculated, but it kept not working (yes, the shipping address was in the U.S.). I tried many times, then finally wrote Dave and suggested that he might be losing out on business from frustrated customers in my position who weren't willing to spend the energy to go to him for help.

You'd think that a vendor would want to assist his customer in making a purchase: instead, I got a snarky, condescending email from him suggesting that I was just too clueless to do this correctly. Putting aside that I am a pretty smart guy with tons of experience buying things online from all sorts of vendors, I really could not believe that someone who is not only selling expensive products, but who is marketing to a pretty small audience who tend to communicate with one another (such as on this forum), chose, instead of trying to help me (say, by offering to call me up, or suggesting I call him, or saying anything helpful at all), rudely blew me off. I wrote back and gave him several chances to either apologize or be helpful, but he kept digging in his heels, and insisted the problem must be at my end.

When buying anything, including knives and related wares, quality is the most important factor. But I'll be damned if I'm going to give my hard-earned money to a vendor who can't even treat me with basic respect. I don't know if this is function of success going to his head and taking his customers for granted, but this whole experience really pi**ed me off, and I won't be shopping there again, nor will I recommend his products.

Ok, that's my rant. Make of it what you will.

you're not wrong... even if the error was a problem on your side, it is simply bad customer service to just say its on your end and not give an alternative method to try and make your purchase, do some due diligence into seeing if there IS a problem on his end, or at the very least provide some assistance in navigating you to make the purchase.

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 11:06 AM
Hard to think much one way or the other without seeing the text of your helpful email. Doubt your post is going to survive long anyway. I know the way Dave crafts his emails sometimes make them read with a different tone than he may mean them to. I've always found it best to call him. And I think it's too bad you put so much info into this post when you could have simpoly called him. Many of the vendors here are craftsmen, not people who sit in front of computers crafting Word documents and emails all day long; I definitely try to keep that in mind when corresponding with many of these guys.

I understand your point David, but that "I'm a craftsman so I don't have to be civil" mentality doesn't fly with me. I would have been happy to talk on the phone if he'd shown the slightest interest in engaging with me. I did put all the info in this post in my email to him, and, as I mentioned, he basically blew me off and appeared uninterested in helping me. This was not an issue of improperly crafting Word documents. He was straight-up dismissive and, in my opinion, rude.

So is the onus on me to call him? Isn't sorting out situations like this on the seller? In my opinion, yes.

jared08
03-18-2014, 11:14 AM
Someone is going to buy the board from him regardless if it is you or not. Either try calling him and get things straitened out or someone who isn't expecting it to be sold to them will buy it.

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 11:16 AM
Someone is going to buy the board from him regardless if it is you or not. Either try calling him and get things straitened out or someone who isn't expecting it to be sold to them will buy it.

Probably true, but missing my point. I personally will not do business with someone who treats his customers this way, and I wanted others to know about my experience. Obviously everyone can do what they like with this information, including nothing at all.

daveb
03-18-2014, 11:30 AM
Mom taught me to praise in public, criticize in private. Served me well for many years.

You've had a frustrating experience. Accept it, move on, but your post/vent/rant does not belong here.

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 11:31 AM
Mom taught me to praise in public, criticize in private. Served me well for many years.

You've had a frustrating experience. Accept it, move on, but your post/vent/rant does not belong here.

Respectfully disagree. I don't see why sharing vendor experiences is not relevant to this forum (though I accept that it may be more appropriate in another category). Is the rule that I'm only supposed to relate positive experiences? If so, that's a dumb rule.

James
03-18-2014, 12:15 PM
I agree with you on that point danny; this forum's advantage is that there exists both positive and negative feedback. If we take that away, what differentiates this one from the next?

jared08
03-18-2014, 12:17 PM
It means sometimes you can shoot your mouth off too quick before you take into account he's a human with emotions and stress just like everyone else. I had a bad experience with DT and wanted to do what you did. Held off for a week to find out his son graduated college and his daughter got married...
All I'm saying is take a breath..

panda
03-18-2014, 12:28 PM
There's no excuse to be an *******. Everyone and their online siblings shout out boardsmith any time a cutting board is mentioned. a non gaga feedback tells a different side of what you might encounter..

Ruso
03-18-2014, 12:42 PM
There are other board vendors out there, we live in the era of the internet and semi-free market. The Australia or Kamchatka is the limit. Even big corporation with millions of clients are trying their best to retain the clientele, you would think small business should focus on that two. Never underestimate the word to mouth adverts.

ThEoRy
03-18-2014, 12:54 PM
2 sides to every story. Maybe you weren't so pleasant in your query to David? Either way, maybe this should be moved to David's sub forum instead of here in the general kitchen knife area?

Talim
03-18-2014, 12:59 PM
The site seems to be working for me. At least I could get it to calculate shipping.

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 01:03 PM
I find it interesting that so many people assume that this must be my fault. Isn't it possible that BS has bad customer service?

Talim -- it could be that I'm using an incompatible browser. I used Chrome and Mozilla, neither worked, hence my resort to email.

Dave M. is free to move this post if he thinks it's in the wrong place.

Asteger
03-18-2014, 01:03 PM
Mom taught me to praise in public, criticize in private. Served me well for many years. You've had a frustrating experience. Accept it, move on, but your post/vent/rant does not belong here.

Not sure what the point of this forum would be, if not to discuss the good and bad of relevant products and service. Completely disagree.

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 01:04 PM
Not sure what the point of this forum would be, if not to discuss the good and bad of relevant products and service. Completely disagree.

:thumbsup:

Talim
03-18-2014, 01:24 PM
I used chrome and just used mozilla right now, unless it's a different type of problem you're describing, then it seems to be working just fine.

mhlee
03-18-2014, 01:29 PM
Either way, maybe this should be moved to David's sub forum instead of here in the general kitchen knife area?

I do agree that this should be moved to his subforum.

As to the appropriateness of this thread, I'll just write a few things. First, Dave has occasionally complained about customers publicly in this forum. Second, this isn't the first public complaint a member has had with Dave. Third, this isn't the CKTG forum.

turbochef422
03-18-2014, 01:34 PM
You should be able to write and rant if you want to. I've had wonderful dealings with vendors here but there is a lot of tippy toeing and if you feel strongly about a bad experience go ahead. I don't have any experience with boardsmith but he bashes customers on here

jamaster14
03-18-2014, 01:45 PM
Mom taught me to praise in public, criticize in private. Served me well for many years.

You've had a frustrating experience. Accept it, move on, but your post/vent/rant does not belong here.

criticize in private is a good rule in general, but is this board not built on reviews, suggestions, and experiences both positive nd negative so long as it is done in a respectful and positive manner(of which i thought the OP was).

I find it a bit suprising those here are coming to the defense of poor customer service. Its one thing to be a craftsman, but if you are selling somethng that also makes you a vendor and in my mind that comes with a responsibility to polite to potential customers be it in person, on the phone, or via email.

i know when i had my restaraunt i had some VERY wrong and VERY rude customers, but would never treat them with anything other then respect and do whatever i could to please them(which sometimes wasnt possible).

it seems like all the OP needed was help making a purchase or an alternative method. i dont see why this would be diffiuclt

daveb
03-18-2014, 01:59 PM
Had someone, anyone, posted "I'm thinking about buying a Boardsmith board, what do you guys think?" , the post would have been entirely appropriate, relevant and on-point. Instead it was an unsolicited, one sided rant. I've had "issues" with vendors here and the one who shall not be named. I look for resolution, not to see who can pee highest on the tree.

My 2 cents. Out of coffee, out of here. No more fuel for this fire.

erikz
03-18-2014, 02:02 PM
We have a saying over here which translates roughly to 'the client is always king'. However a client reacts, you should try to facilitate them as well as you can. Sure as hell dont blow them off like mentioned in the opening post.

I also dont see the point of keeping negative reviews quiet. That would be cheating. Aspiring costumers should be getting the chance to make up their minds based on a balanced set of fair reviews.

jamaster14
03-18-2014, 02:05 PM
I also dont see the point of keeping negative reviews quiet. That would be cheating. Aspiring costumers should be getting the chance to make up their minds based on a balanced set of fair reviews.

Exactly, and if this kind of thing is a one time occurrence or not the norm, it will be reflected in the amount of positive review far outweighing the negative ones.

DevinT
03-18-2014, 02:07 PM
It's okay to seek a resolution, it's not okay to seek to damage a vendor.

Money is not a license to get angry.

@ OP, sorry this happened.

Hoss

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 02:46 PM
It's okay to seek a resolution, it's not okay to seek to damage a vendor.

Money is not a license to get angry.

@ OP, sorry this happened.

Hoss

I really am not trying to take this up a notch, and I think I have got my message across. But I would just like to understand what the KKF policy is for the future. Is it the case that reporting on negative experiences with a vendor (whether or not in response to someone asking about that vendor) amounts to "seeking to damage" that vendor and is therefore verboten? Wouldn't this apply to all negative reviews? And if I have gotten this right, wouldn't the effect of this policy simply be to limit reviews of vendors to those that are positive, prohibiting all the negative ones, thereby depriving members of the forum from getting balanced information?

Please let me know if I have misinterpreted what you are saying.

toddnmd
03-18-2014, 03:04 PM
I think it's absolutely valid to post negative as well as positive experiences. Otherwise, the feedback becomes a distortion.

FWIW, about a year ago, I had some concerns about customer service based on my experience. I didn't express them publicly, but rather did so privately. It does concern me that there seem to be continuing issues with customer service.

Dave Martell
03-18-2014, 03:29 PM
I really am not trying to take this up a notch, and I think I have got my message across. But I would just like to understand what the KKF policy is for the future.




From KKF's Vendor & Membership Terms of Use...Guidelines & Expectations for Vendors and Hobbyists: (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/8110-Vendor-and-Membership-Terms-of-Use?p=137751&viewfull=1#post137751)

-You must respect members’ opinions, and cannot argue with or badger members on negative reviews as long as they are factual and respectful...


Our policy has always been that objective respectful opinions and reviews are welcome.

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 03:31 PM
From KKF's Vendor & Membership Terms of Use...Guidelines & Expectations for Vendors and Hobbyists: (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/8110-Vendor-and-Membership-Terms-of-Use?p=137751&viewfull=1#post137751)



Our policy has always been that objective respectful opinions and reviews are welcome.

Thank you Dave. I think this has been a healthy discussion.

DevinT
03-18-2014, 03:31 PM
A balance of information is a good thing. If we did that there would have to be 1000 positive reviews for every negative one so there would be a fair representation of the vendor. There is no vendor here or elsewhere that can meet all of the expectations of all of the customers.

Negative reviews do have an effect on vendors, sometimes it's the only thing that we hear.

Small business get bogged down with trying to make everyone happy. If a guy could just make things and sell them, it would be easy to be in business. The making of things is the easy part, managing everything else is the hard part.

Negative reviews are intended to drum up support for the offended person, somehow asking for everyone to take sides and support that by their own experiences. I also like to be a competitive arguer, I want there to be a clear winner and looser for every argument. Usually, both sides are both right and wrong.

I am not opposed to your posts, I just wish that there was a better solution.

Hoss

NO ChoP!
03-18-2014, 03:37 PM
I've had terrific experiences with some of our vendors, and I've had a few horrific experiences as well.

I will publicly praise those for their outstanding service.

I will not suggest products from, and will talk privately about those who have failed to provide me with a level of service I believe I deserve.

Unfortunately there are a few of our very own I will never patronize again...

The BoardSMITH
03-18-2014, 04:00 PM
Since I was named here I will post a transcript with the name and email address removed of the OP. In short, if he had called me I would have walked him through the shopping cart process personally.

If you wanted my business, you would have tried to help me solve my problem, rather than suggesting that I was doing something wrong. I am a smart guy, I did what you said, it didn't work. Perhaps I need to use a particular browser -- who knows?-- but rather than helping me figure this out, you implied that I must be missing something. I'd add that when you say "it works for everyone else," you ignore the possibility that other people have experienced the same problem and haven't bothered to write.

In short, you were condescending rather than helpful, which I think the transcript bears out, and I would venture to say that that taking that sort of tone with customers willing to drop hundreds of dollars on your products can't be good for business.

On Monday, March 17, 2014, David Smith <boardsmith@triad.rr.com> wrote:
Quite frankly you put words in my mouth, at no time did I tell you to take your business elsewhere. All I said was it seems to work for everyone else. At no time was I rude or unhelpful, quite the opposite, I instructed you where to enter the shipping information. Please share the experience with the forum, I will be happy to publish a transcript of your emails for them to read.

From:
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 9:39 PM
To: David Smith
Subject: Re: Your website doesn't work

Ps I am an active member of kitchen knife forums and have repeated extolled the virtues of your products, which is why I find your unhelpful and, frankly, rude reaction to a potential customer especially galling. I'll be sure to share my experience with that community.

On Monday, March 17, 2014,
What a helpful response. I guess you're asking me to take my business elsewhere.

On Monday, March 17, 2014, David Smith <boardsmith@triad.rr.com> wrote:
Sure seems to work for everyone else.


-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 4:28 PM
To: David Smith
Subject: Re: Your website doesn't work

Yes, but it doesn't work. Nothing happens when you enter the info.

On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:26 PM, David Smith <BoardSMITH@triad.rr.com>
wrote:
> There is a box on the left of the shopping cart to fill in your zip code.
> This calculates the proper UPS shipping rates.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 4:18 PM
> To: boardsmith .
> Subject: Your website doesn't work
>
> Your website doesn't work! I tried to place an order, but kept
> getting a message saying the order couldn't go through because I
> hadn't selected a shipping method. But there is no way to do this.
>
> I would bet you're losing a lot of business as a result of this faulty
> system. I eventually just gave up.
>

BTW He sent the first email twice from two different originating points.

sachem allison
03-18-2014, 04:15 PM
Wow, He wrote this

"On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:26 PM, David Smith <BoardSMITH@triad.rr.com>
wrote:
> There is a box on the left of the shopping cart to fill in your zip code.
> This calculates the proper UPS shipping rates."
>


and you got This out of it.


"From:
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 9:39 PM
To: David Smith
Subject: Re: Your website doesn't work

Ps I am an active member of kitchen knife forums and have repeated extolled the virtues of your products, which is why I find your unhelpful and, frankly, rude reaction to a potential customer especially galling. I'll be sure to share my experience with that community.

On Monday, March 17, 2014,
What a helpful response. I guess you're asking me to take my business elsewhere."

schanop
03-18-2014, 04:35 PM
I this this is a PEBKAC problem :curse: The very next page during ordering process on theboardsmith.com clearly said:



Shipping
To: Ontario

Please enter your shipping destination and postal code to view domestic shipping rates. International customers - select local pick-up and the exact Priority Mail International rates will be sent to you when the board is ready to ship.


US address would have a shipping charge shown up, but this OP lives in Toronto.

Bill13
03-18-2014, 04:37 PM
This is where email sucks. You lose all the nuances of the voice and things can get misinterpreted so easily. Whenever things start to go south in an email conversation, I apologize and suggest a phone call to clear things up. If that does not work, then I move on to another business.

JHunter
03-18-2014, 04:39 PM
Wow, He wrote this

"On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:26 PM, David Smith <BoardSMITH@triad.rr.com>
wrote:
> There is a box on the left of the shopping cart to fill in your zip code.
> This calculates the proper UPS shipping rates."
>


and you got This out of it.


"From:
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 9:39 PM
To: David Smith
Subject: Re: Your website doesn't work

Ps I am an active member of kitchen knife forums and have repeated extolled the virtues of your products, which is why I find your unhelpful and, frankly, rude reaction to a potential customer especially galling. I'll be sure to share my experience with that community.

On Monday, March 17, 2014,
What a helpful response. I guess you're asking me to take my business elsewhere."

There is more in between those two in the original thread. Including one that states nothing but "sure seems to work for everyone else "

The BoardSMITH
03-18-2014, 04:57 PM
That is the entire email exchange with no deletions, except for the OP's name and email address, or additions.

The OP is entitled to his opinions and is free to voice his opinions here on my sub-forum. I realize I am not able to satisfy each and everyone but I try.

erikz
03-18-2014, 05:01 PM
Well, this seems like a classic case of email miscommunication/misunderstanding.

JHunter
03-18-2014, 05:09 PM
That is the entire email exchange with no deletions, except for the OP's name and email address, or additions.

The OP is entitled to his opinions and is free to voice his opinions here on my sub-forum. I realize I am not able to satisfy each and everyone but I try.

I was referring to the post I quoted not showing the entire email you posted and how it can make it read different is all. No one will win in the case of someone having what they felt was a poor customer service experience

schanop
03-18-2014, 05:14 PM
Checked again, it's my own PEBKAC, :spankarse:

There's no local pick up option any where to be selected. Now I can see both sides of this argument.


Shipping
To: Ontario

Please enter your shipping destination and postal code to view domestic shipping rates. International customers - select local pick-up and the exact Priority Mail International rates will be sent to you when the board is ready to ship.

Anton
03-18-2014, 05:19 PM
It's a common situation in any office -- especially for those in the communications industry: You communicate something (quite clearly, you think). The person with whom you're communicating receives the information (quite clearly, they think). And neither one of you is right.

Fact is, there is very often a big gap between what is intended and received. The "evolution" of "communications" technology, namely e-mail and text messages, is baiting us with apparent connectivity, only to lead us down a path of confusion, frustration and the belief that we have actually communicated at all.

Of course, all communication, even in its purest, face-to-face and focused form, falls prey to the imperfections of emotion, situation, distraction and interpretation. So we're talking about a matter of degree here. But the big question is: Are we aware of the limitations of the communication methods we're using? And do we correct for them?


My .02

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 05:29 PM
Checked again, it's my own PEBKAC, :spankarse:

There's no local pick up option any where to be selected. Now I can see both sides of this argument.


I'm sure no one cares, but I actually attempted to have this sent to the US, also using a US billing address (I may have erroneously entered the shipping address as Ontario at first, but I tried at least 5 times with the correct US shipping address). It just wouldn't work. And I did see the second page, which asked me to enter the shipping address, which I did, because I'm not a complete idiot. I still got an error message.

Even if I was a complete idiot, or internet novice, would that justify the way I was spoken to? Not in my opinion.

That said, as the OP, I propose we put this one to bed.

schanop
03-18-2014, 05:45 PM
My apologies to both sides. I did totally miss US shipping address in the first post.

JDA_NC
03-18-2014, 06:00 PM
Even if I was a complete idiot, or internet novice, would that justify the way I was spoken to? Not in my opinion.

Treat others how you want to be treated (is what I've always been taught). Your original e-mail's tone was probably the rudest of the entire exchange. Instead of explaining your issue with his website, you told him 'factually' that his website doesn't work -- and that because of it you gave up on ordering something from him -- and that he's probably losing a lot of business because of it.

You could have just wrote him telling him what you were interested in ordering, what the issue was with the website, and where you were trying to get it sent to. Boom. Problem solved. No need to get so upset over the small things in life...

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 06:04 PM
Treat others how you want to be treated (is what I've always been taught). Your original e-mail's tone was probably the rudest of the entire exchange. Instead of explaining your issue with his website, you told him 'factually' that his website doesn't work -- and that because of it you gave up on ordering something from him -- and that he's probably losing a lot of business because of it.

You could have just wrote him telling him what you were interested in ordering, what the issue was with the website, and where you were trying to get it sent to. Boom. Problem solved. No need to get so upset over the small things in life...

Really, you think it's rude to tell a vendor they may be losing business because their website doesn't let orders go through? Don't you think that's something a vendor might want to know?

ThEoRy
03-18-2014, 06:10 PM
So instead of starting your communication with David with something like, "I'm having trouble placing an order" You start by immediately attacking him with, "Your website doesn't work!"


I just went through the process on David's site just to see the whole thing through and like he said it works for everyone else. Sounds like that time someone tried to purchase a Bill Burke knife that was in their shopping cart for over a day or so then when they finally hit "purchase" they were shocked and angered with the vendor that the item was no longer available. User error.

It sounds to me like YOU made a mistake, blamed someone else like a child does, attacked the vendor privately then publicly WITHOUT disclosing your very rude private attack as if to seem like you were some innocent victim. Like I said earlier there are 2 sides to every story.

Why couldn't you just call the guy?

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 06:14 PM
What exactly was the mistake that I made? I entered all the information that I was asked to and it didn't work. And does the fact that it worked for you mean that it worked for "everyone"?

And are you seriously telling me that I am acting like a child? I will be an adult and not respond to that comment.

ThEoRy
03-18-2014, 06:18 PM
What exactly was the mistake that I made? I entered all the information that I was asked to and it didn't work. And does the fact that it worked for you mean that it worked for "everyone"?

And are you seriously telling me that I am acting like a child? I will be an adult and not respond to that comment.

Who knows what the mistake you made was if you can't even say? And yes, that is exactly how children act. Blame everyone else and throw a tantrum. Would you care to comment on my assessment of your original exchange to David and why you began with an attack instead of a query or why you didn't just call the guy up and place the order by phone?

Ucmd
03-18-2014, 06:22 PM
I am really surprised at the direction this thread is taking. Nothing productive will come from this. Will mods Please end this thread.

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 06:23 PM
It's kind of bizarre that I am engaging with you, a total stranger, having to explain my interaction with the vendor. Suffice to say that I don't think my email was rude, even if it was rather direct. And my point is that after I pointed out the process was not working for me (however I said it), the vendor made no effort to resolve the situation. Again, how is the onus on the customer?

Theory, I don't really care what you think about me, and I really think your insults are unbecoming and unworthy of this forum.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I think the facts speak for themselves.

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 06:26 PM
I am really surprised at the direction this thread is taking. Nothing productive will come from this. Will mods Please end this thread.

Amen.

andre s
03-18-2014, 06:48 PM
It's a common situation in any office -- especially for those in the communications industry: You communicate something (quite clearly, you think). The person with whom you're communicating receives the information (quite clearly, they think). And neither one of you is right.

Fact is, there is very often a big gap between what is intended and received. The "evolution" of "communications" technology, namely e-mail and text messages, is baiting us with apparent connectivity, only to lead us down a path of confusion, frustration and the belief that we have actually communicated at all.

Of course, all communication, even in its purest, face-to-face and focused form, falls prey to the imperfections of emotion, situation, distraction and interpretation. So we're talking about a matter of degree here. But the big question is: Are we aware of the limitations of the communication methods we're using? And do we correct for them?


My .02

+1
in my (especially work) experience, most people read emails in their worst "possible" tone. some have admitted to me that emails ending without a "thanks" puts them off. I've personally found it most helpful to assume that others have good intentions because they usually do. And, even when they don't, there usually aren't many downsides to taking the high road. In fact, it usually helps move past difficult situations...which is great, if that's your goal. I suppose some people just prefer having the drama go on and on...
Not me. I'm boring that way

:D
thanks

MowgFace
03-18-2014, 06:51 PM
I am really surprised at the direction this thread is taking. Nothing productive will come from this. Will mods Please end this thread.

Personally i dont think closing the thread is fair to the forum. The OP had his chance to rant/vent. People should have their chance to respond.

On that note, i think that people are ignoring the part of the forum rules Dave had mentioned to be respectful and objective.

DevinT
03-18-2014, 07:00 PM
The OP requested that it be shut down.

Hoss

dannynyc
03-18-2014, 07:01 PM
I feel like we're only one step away from someone calling someone a nazi.

I'm sure people here are capable of disagreeing with me without resort to personal insults.

ThEoRy
03-18-2014, 07:20 PM
It's kind of bizarre that I am engaging with you, a total stranger, having to explain my interaction with the vendor. Suffice to say that I don't think my email was rude, even if it was rather direct. And my point is that after I pointed out the process was not working for me (however I said it), the vendor made no effort to resolve the situation. Again, how is the onus on the customer?

Theory, I don't really care what you think about me, and I really think your insults are unbecoming and unworthy of this forum.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I think the facts speak for themselves.

You find it bizarre that you're interacting with a total stranger when you post on a message board with a bunch of total strangers?
I was merely pointing out how this looks from the outside once the exchange was made public. (however I said it)

Pachowder
03-18-2014, 07:27 PM
That's because after BS shared the transcript, the tide turned. Now, we have two sides to a story and people can make what they want from it. I am neutral here. I have a boardsmith board and love it. I also understand some people expect certain levels of customer service. I didn't see anything bad in Dave's email but the OP did. His choice. Being an adult, I wouldn't let one post like this effect if I were to purchase from BS again. Not sure of my point but this is the internet...


The OP requested that it be shut down.

Hoss

jamaster14
03-18-2014, 07:29 PM
A balance of information is a good thing. If we did that there would have to be 1000 positive reviews for every negative one so there would be a fair representation of the vendor. There is no vendor here or elsewhere that can meet all of the expectations of all of the customers.

Negative reviews do have an effect on vendors, sometimes it's the only thing that we hear.

Small business get bogged down with trying to make everyone happy. If a guy could just make things and sell them, it would be easy to be in business. The making of things is the easy part, managing everything else is the hard part.

Negative reviews are intended to drum up support for the offended person, somehow asking for everyone to take sides and support that by their own experiences. I also like to be a competitive arguer, I want there to be a clear winner and looser for every argument. Usually, both sides are both right and wrong.

I am not opposed to your posts, I just wish that there was a better solution.

Hoss

I think negative reviews only damage a vendor if they respond to them in negative ways. There are tons of Yelp reviews where the vendor/owner/manager/chef/etc will just argue and bash the person back and forth, when simply trying to help the person (even if they are wrong) can usually resolve it faster and lead to a positive review from that same poster. on the flip side ive seen similar negative review where the vendor has come back, offered to try again.. offered to correct the problem, ship a replacement, give a coupon, etc... i find these are the places that get the best reviews and have people who were initially upset coming back as repeat customers.

i know personally ive given an initial bad review, had the person respond to me in a very professional manner, only to edit or follow up on my initial negative review with a positive one. not everyones issues can be solved, but good customer service is to TRY and resolve everyones problems. arguing or telling the customer how wrong they are likely isnt going to promote more business.

i know im willing to pay and pay a ton more for good customer service, and willing to pass on places with poor service.

DevinT
03-18-2014, 07:42 PM
Most of the time we react to things and then realize that we over reacted.

Hoss

Pachowder
03-18-2014, 07:44 PM
Devin,

If you sent me a free knife I would over react but I bet I would realize I didn't over react enough :)


Most of the time we react to things and then realize that we over reacted.

Hoss

DevinT
03-18-2014, 07:45 PM
Thanks

rami_m
03-18-2014, 08:23 PM
Had someone, anyone, posted "I'm thinking about buying a Boardsmith board, what do you guys think?" , the post would have been entirely appropriate, relevant and on-point. Instead it was an unsolicited, one sided rant. I've had "issues" with vendors here and the one who shall not be named. I look for resolution, not to see who can pee highest on the tree.

My 2 cents. Out of coffee, out of here. No more fuel for this fire.

I am new here, so escuses me for asking who shall not be named?
Just in case I call the wrath of the gods by mistake or something :p

Dave Martell
03-18-2014, 08:55 PM
We've never been big on shutting down threads, instead we've preferred to allow them to run their course, allowing for everyone to weigh in, etc.

At this point the thread appears to be still be active but the tone needs to be kept civil and respectful.

rami_m
03-18-2014, 08:58 PM
We've never been big on shutting down threads, instead we've preferred to allow them to run their course, allowing for everyone to weigh in, etc.

At this point the thread appears to be still be active but the tone needs to be kept civil and respectful.

Btw I just gotten invoked with this board a short while ago. Haven't had so much fun in a long time. Kudos for building such a wonderful community.

panda
03-18-2014, 11:54 PM
After reading the exchange and seeing both sides, it looks to me the potential customer jumped to conclusions and is now crying over spilt milk that was nobody's fault except a technical difficulty that can't be sourced. Let go of your ego and move on, the intensity of your responses suggest you really really want one of his boards badly and are just sour that you couldn't order one.

bahamaroot
03-19-2014, 01:40 AM
I had trouble using David's website when he was going through his first redesign. As with the OP I gave up on it but instead of having a hissy fit I just called him personally as his web site suggested if you are having trouble. After speaking to him on the phone and him taking my order personally I found David to be very pleasant and helpful. Some of the best costumer service I have experienced from a vender. If I ever want another board he would be the first person I would go to.

Erilyn75
03-19-2014, 01:55 AM
Really, you think it's rude to tell a vendor they may be losing business because their website doesn't let orders go through? Don't you think that's something a vendor might want to know?



Your very first line was, "your website doesn't work!". That's rather rude and you are automatically setting the tone for future correspondence. I'm sure things would have gone differently had you simply just said, "I'm having a problem with checkout, this is what it's saying, here's a screen shot (I always take one so they can physically see what kind of error I'm getting), could you please let me know what I'm doing wrong."

To me, your very first email was accusatory right from the start. I've never ordered from BoardSmith and I don't know you so I'm not biased one way or the other, just giving you my opinion on how your email read.

jaybett
03-19-2014, 05:24 AM
Out of curiosity, to the original poster, what were you hoping would be the end result of posting your complaint on the forum?

Jay

Namaxy
03-19-2014, 08:31 AM
I'm always amazed at how far people will take an e-mail exchange and not pick up the phone. Your first e-mail to BoardSmith set the tone, whether you intended to or not. When you didn't get resolution at that point, why not call? I'm certain at that point you would have found resolution, and none of this would have to be written.

icanhaschzbrgr
03-19-2014, 08:38 AM
I'm always amazed at how far people will take an e-mail exchange and not pick up the phone.
Sorry for truncating your reply, but I wanted to notice another thing with the help of your cite.

As someone, who isn't native English speaker I find it MUCH harder to communicate with US over phone compared to email. My daily job includes skype meetings with US guys and I find myself way more productive when we discuss things using emails and not skype (or phone). And for us there's also a huge time difference, so phone (or skype) is not always the best option.

dannynyc
03-19-2014, 08:46 AM
A lot of you take a pretty broad view of the term "respectful communication."

Chefu
03-19-2014, 08:54 AM
As a chef and manager for many years, dealing with customers can be difficult, but the bottom line is that is what we do. I need to make an effort to address the customers needs and if I can't then I need to offer an alternative. FWIW there are a couple of well respected vendors on KKF that for one reason or another I can't seem to get their websites to work for me and with one simple email both of them were more than willing to send me PayPal info and the transactions were complete. I believe that posting a bad experience is just as valid as posting the great ones. Everyone has to ultimately weigh both good and bad to make their own judgments. That is what makes this forum work.

jamaster14
03-19-2014, 11:45 AM
Your very first line was, "your website doesn't work!". That's rather rude and you are automatically setting the tone for future correspondence. I'm sure things would have gone differently had you simply just said, "I'm having a problem with checkout, this is what it's saying, here's a screen shot (I always take one so they can physically see what kind of error I'm getting), could you please let me know what I'm doing wrong."

To me, your very first email was accusatory right from the start. I've never ordered from BoardSmith and I don't know you so I'm not biased one way or the other, just giving you my opinion on how your email read.

Right, it wasnt a great constructive comment. but he isnt the vendor. and his poor email/complaint to me doesnt go ahead and make acceptable customer service to respond that way in return. to me, thats bad business. I think any of us who have run a business or worked in customer service know that most of the requests are NOT very respectful, helpful, or constructive. as usually when we get them, its because something went wrong.

people are going to complain when something doesnt work, regardless of whose fault it is, and when they do so in looking for help they often dont do so in a helpful way. its just as easy for the vendor to say "im sorry its not working for you -- can you describe the issue or error you are getting or provide me with a bit more info so I can help you make your purchase? We also take orders over the phone if that would be more convient for you?"

and then it probably goes alot smoother after that. i dont think the problem being on the OP's end is really of any consequence. i think the main point being overlooked is that he really didnt get much help or alternative ways to purchase. thats a potential lose sale, a potential lost repeat customer, and a potential lost positive review. This is just my opinion, but to me those 3 things are worth biting your tongue and going overboard to help the person.

jamaster14
03-19-2014, 11:47 AM
As a chef and manager for many years, dealing with customers can be difficult, but the bottom line is that is what we do. I need to make an effort to address the customers needs and if I can't then I need to offer an alternative. FWIW there are a couple of well respected vendors on KKF that for one reason or another I can't seem to get their websites to work for me and with one simple email both of them were more than willing to send me PayPal info and the transactions were complete. I believe that posting a bad experience is just as valid as posting the great ones. Everyone has to ultimately weigh both good and bad to make their own judgments. That is what makes this forum work.

this is very well said, and what i was trying to communicate.

dannynyc
03-19-2014, 12:13 PM
I really do hope this can be the last email in this chain. I will accept upon reflection that my email to the vendor took an unnecessarily aggressive tone (I was busy at work, had tried many times to put the order through, didn't have time to call, and was very frustrated), and if I could have done it over, I would phrase it more politely. In the end though, my gripe was with the fact that instead of being met with an effort from the vendor to resolve the situation, I was told that it was I who was the problem, with no apparent interest in resolving it. And that, in my mind, is bad business.

I know there are those who disagree, and I respect their views.

As a last remark (at least on my part), I would ask those who directed comments to me of a personal nature ("acting like a child," "hissy fit," etc.) to reflect on whether there are more civil ways of expressing their opinions in the future. As a general rule, I'd suggest not posting anything you wouldn't say to someone in person, and taking extra special care to avoid comments that might earn you a punch in the mouth.

ecchef
03-19-2014, 01:17 PM
I really do hope this can be the last email in this chain.

I believe I'll second that motion.

Birnando
03-19-2014, 02:37 PM
Another perfect argument for a no vendor bashing rule on all open forums..

The OP was never about resolving anything, it was motivated by much less noble motives.
Given the entire email correspondence, it's hard to see it any other way.

Constructive feedback, good or bad is a good thing.
A one sided rant on the other hand is of no value to anyone.

This posted from the other side of the Atlantic where I feel relatively safe from getting punched in the mouth..

jamaster14
03-19-2014, 02:57 PM
Another perfect argument for a no vendor bashing rule on all open forums..

The OP was never about resolving anything, it was motivated by much less noble motives.
Given the entire email correspondence, it's hard to see it any other way.

Constructive feedback, good or bad is a good thing.
A one sided rant on the other hand is of no value to anyone.

This posted from the other side of the Atlantic where I feel relatively safe from getting punched in the mouth..

I dont view it that way at all, and find the thread to be extremely helpful. what is the point of allowing feedback or reviews at all if you are only allowed to post positive ones. Regardless of the motives, the story seems pretty clear. The OP was very reactionary, pushy, and not at all constructive in his emails. but he did, in fact, have trouble ordering (even if the problem was on his end). and BS seem to have little interest in dealing with the issue because of this, which personally, i find to be poor customer service.

to me it really doesnt matter what the OP said, this isnt a post about the OP, its a post about how boardsmith responded to a (somewhat irrationally) upset customer. if you're a vendor you are going to run into plenty of those regardless of what your business is.

Erilyn75
03-19-2014, 03:16 PM
Right, it wasnt a great constructive comment. but he isnt the vendor. and his poor email/complaint to me doesnt go ahead and make acceptable customer service to respond that way in return. to me, thats bad business. I think any of us who have run a business or worked in customer service know that most of the requests are NOT very respectful, helpful, or constructive. as usually when we get them, its because something went wrong.

people are going to complain when something doesnt work, regardless of whose fault it is, and when they do so in looking for help they often dont do so in a helpful way. its just as easy for the vendor to say "im sorry its not working for you -- can you describe the issue or error you are getting or provide me with a bit more info so I can help you make your purchase? We also take orders over the phone if that would be more convient for you?"

and then it probably goes alot smoother after that. i dont think the problem being on the OP's end is really of any consequence. i think the main point being overlooked is that he really didnt get much help or alternative ways to purchase. thats a potential lose sale, a potential lost repeat customer, and a potential lost positive review. This is just my opinion, but to me those 3 things are worth biting your tongue and going overboard to help the person.

Oh I agree, it definitely should have been handled better by the vendor and I can understand how the OP must have felt when he got a response back. I just wanted the OP to understand why he was maybe getting the reaction he was getting from some of the members. He made it sound one way in his initial post then the emails were revealed and it showed something different than originally portrayed.

I think this is actually a great learning experience for potential customers and vendors alike. Remember what your mama said about catching more bees with honey than vinegar and when you get a grumpy customer, kill them with kindness and be glad you don't live with them! :laugh:

erikz
03-19-2014, 03:23 PM
Another perfect argument for a no vendor bashing rule on all open forums..

The OP was never about resolving anything, it was motivated by much less noble motives.
Given the entire email correspondence, it's hard to see it any other way.

Constructive feedback, good or bad is a good thing.
A one sided rant on the other hand is of no value to anyone.

This posted from the other side of the Atlantic where I feel relatively safe from getting punched in the mouth..
Whats the point of reviews when negative reviews are disallowed? Better not have reviews at all.

I expect everyone to read reviews and make a decision based on what they've actually read. If there are 99 positive reviews and 1 negative, wouldnt people still buy from that vendor?

This is how sites like tripadvisor and the bay work and its pretty darn good if you ask me.

29palms
03-19-2014, 03:40 PM
I find the telephone a good communications tool. You dial a number and someone on the other end says "hello may I help you?"

gunnerjohn
03-19-2014, 03:43 PM
9 pages on this is amazing. I believe the point has been made on all sides. If people want to keep putting their fingers in the spokes to see what happens, I think it needs to be elsewhere. Move on folks.

dannynyc
03-19-2014, 03:44 PM
I find the telephone a good communications tool. You dial a number and someone on the other end says "hello may I help you?"

I work in a busy and non-private office where talking on the phone to place a cutting board order is not a realistic option. People can be awfully judgmental in doling out advice without knowing about others' circumstances.

For god's sake people, this is all getting awfully repetitive. Can we please just put it to rest?

apicius9
03-19-2014, 03:52 PM
“Everything has been said already, but not yet by everyone.” – Karl Valentin

Stefan

WildBoar
03-19-2014, 04:50 PM
People can be awfully judgmental in doling out advice without knowing about others' circumstances.The only issue I have with this statement is that's exactly what you did with Boardsmith. And for you a phone call is a poor way to communicate due to your work circumstances, while at Boardsmith's end of things email is a poor way for him to communicate since he is working in the shop all day long. I think this really boils down to both parties wrote that could have been read with tones that were not meant by the writers. It's easy to ask that the discussion be ended, but please remember this is someone's livelihood that is potentially being damaged. The only damage at your end is you could not order the board you wanted. Yet payback for this is starting a thread that was attacking and intending to damage that craftsman. I'm all for posting positive and negative experiences, but they way the OP was written seemed to go a bit beyond.

Salty dog
03-19-2014, 05:04 PM
If you've spent much time here you should have realized you were "kicking a hornets nest". As soon as I saw the title I said to myself "oh boy, here we go".
I have purposely avoided offering an opinion on the OP.

Birnando
03-19-2014, 05:30 PM
Whats the point of reviews when negative reviews are disallowed? Better not have reviews at all.

I expect everyone to read reviews and make a decision based on what they've actually read. If there are 99 positive reviews and 1 negative, wouldnt people still buy from that vendor?

This is how sites like tripadvisor and the bay work and its pretty darn good if you ask me.

The difference, as I stated in my post, is that there is a difference between a rant and a well thought out review.
Calling the OP a review is a big stretch in my book.
He himself admitted to being provoked by it, and informed the vendor that he would use his membership here as sort of a threat.
That is not a review, it is a rant written in anger.

A review is giving ones impressions on whatever, factually and as objective as possible.
To me, the OP failed miserably on both counts.

As to the tripadivisor and ebay comment, yeah, they sort of work.
But due to a lot of people just wanting to shout out in public due to joy or anger makes the "reviews" on those sites less than stellar in my book.

As an example, I stayed at a hotel in NYC recently where the raving reviews went on for pages on Tripadvisor.
A few others, like me, found the stay there pretty mediocre.
Yet others found it pretty crappy.
What can we learn from that??
That people are different?
We all knew that from the get go, right?

My point is, this was not a review, it was an agitated person trying to get back at the vendor.

Dave Martell
03-19-2014, 05:36 PM
“Everything has been said already, but not yet by everyone.” – Karl Valentin



This is a good quote that is certainly relevant here. I think that this thread has run it's course, everyone involved has had their say, the facts are here for all to see. Beyond this point is just beating a dead horse.