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TamanegiKin
06-30-2011, 02:22 AM
Hi all,
I will be looking for another Gyuto in the next couple
months. I'm interested in something with a more flat
profile. It seems from pics at least that Mizuno, yoshikane, aritsugu and masamoto ks would all be potential candidates. Most interesting at this point are the Mizuno akitada blue 2 or a yoshikane in skd.
I'm curiouse if anyone has any insight on these two knives
and if they do in fact have a flatter profile/less belly compared to say a konosuke or suisin. Also, is there a term for gyutos with this shape? I've heard the term torpedo but that's it.
Thanks in advance.

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 02:31 AM
my Mizuno 270 definitely has a flatter profile than my Konosuke 270. the Mizuno is a great knife.

TamanegiKin
06-30-2011, 02:33 AM
Also forgot to mention if anyone has any other suggestions to please send 'em my way.

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 02:35 AM
love my Shigefusa. the Shig has a little bit more of a curve than the Mizuno.

TamanegiKin
06-30-2011, 02:38 AM
my Mizuno 270 definitely has a flatter profile than my Konosuke 270. the Mizuno is a great knife.

Nice, that's good to hear. One can only tell so much from pics.
Does the edge come in around the same length as the konosuke? 260'ish?
Thanks

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 02:40 AM
the Konosuke is a tad longer. here is the mizuno next to the Shig (the shig is a 240, and the cutting edge is exactly 240mm). hard to tell in the photo, the Mizuno is a tad flatter in the hand. not a big difference.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4167/knives2.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/405/knives2.jpg/)

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 02:44 AM
you can compare the Konosuke to the Shig in this pic, though it's not at a perfect angle for it...

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9035/knivesh.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/knivesh.jpg/)

TamanegiKin
06-30-2011, 02:52 AM
Awesome knives! I must say that of the knives I've been comparing I keep ending up with the Mizuno at the top of my list. Something intriguing about that knife.
Thanks for the pic and info.

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 02:55 AM
the Mizuno is a great knife. when i first got the Shigefusa i was immediately smitten with it, but i've come to use both knives about the same amount.

UglyJoe
06-30-2011, 03:35 AM
Love, love, love my Mizuno. Convext grinds are where it's at.

Mattias504
06-30-2011, 03:44 AM
Didn't Mizuno recently change the grind of their knives? I remember seeing a post about them becoming more Heiji-like in that they had big bevels towards the edge. If this is the case, thats awesome.

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 03:51 AM
Didn't Mizuno recently change the grind of their knives? I remember seeing a post about them becoming more Heiji-like in that they had big bevels towards the edge. If this is the case, thats awesome.

on mine, at least, the big bevel is completely cosmetic.

tk59
06-30-2011, 04:16 AM
Hi all,
I will be looking for another Gyuto in the next couple
months. I'm interested in something with a more flat
profile. It seems from pics at least that Mizuno, yoshikane, aritsugu and masamoto ks would all be potential candidates. Most interesting at this point are the Mizuno akitada blue 2 or a yoshikane in skd.
I'm curiouse if anyone has any insight on these two knives
and if they do in fact have a flatter profile/less belly compared to say a konosuke or suisin. Also, is there a term for gyutos with this shape? I've heard the term torpedo but that's it.
Thanks in advance.

Yoshikane SKD from Epicurean Edge is VERY flat for a long stretch starting at the heel. It is a massive knife. This western 270 mm measures 274 mm heel to tip. I was told the wa-version is also a true 270. It will wedge more than the Konosuke and it is pretty thick at the spine until the very tip where it thins out nicely. It would be better if it thinned out an inch earlier, imo. It is a nice knife though and for the record the secondary bevel is really cut the way it looks like it is.

goodchef1
06-30-2011, 11:40 AM
yeah, Mizuno's are old school favorites. You might also look into the Masamoto, one of the flattest in my collection

UglyJoe
06-30-2011, 12:10 PM
Didn't Mizuno recently change the grind of their knives? I remember seeing a post about them becoming more Heiji-like in that they had big bevels towards the edge. If this is the case, thats awesome.

Yes. I sharpen the whole bevel (hamaguriba on both sides) when I sharpen the knife and then use an asymmetric microbevel. Some people ignore the bevels and sharpen like a regular gyuto. I did this for a while at first - now I'm convinced that this is the incorrect way to sharpen this knife. Convexed knives cut like no other.

heirkb
06-30-2011, 12:46 PM
Yes. I sharpen the whole bevel (hamaguriba on both sides) when I sharpen the knife and then use an asymmetric microbevel. Some people ignore the bevels and sharpen like a regular gyuto. I did this for a while at first - now I'm convinced that this is the incorrect way to sharpen this knife. Convexed knives cut like no other.

Joe,
How do you hamaguri the sides of a knife that doesn't have a clean shinogi? Do you thin a little, then lift up by a degree or so and sharpen the edge, then blend like Jon does on the single bevels?

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 02:53 PM
there are no bevels on mine, it was just polished lines that have disappeared as the knife has patinaed. i couldn't feel them with a finger nail, and there was no visible change to the geometry of the blade corresponding with the lines. i'm convinced they don't actually exist, and are an artifact of how final finishing is done on the knife, if mine is anything to go by.

UglyJoe
06-30-2011, 03:49 PM
They are real. They are just very minor. When I sharpen on the stone if I am very careful and use no mud I can hit the original line. But the angle is so flat that any mud on the stone will scratch up the flat of the blade, and any wobble will round off the shinogi. But that's where the grind starts on the knife. I lay the blade flat and put pressure halfway between where that shinogi is (or was) and sharpen. You basically only hit below where that line was, though as I said mud will make the flat a mess. Then I lift the spine a hair and sharpen again. This hits most of the hagane and creates an edge. Once I've developed the edge I blend the two together, just like with a traditional knife. This leaves the main bevel as a convexed bevel basically from where that shinogi was down to the edge, no corners. 35* microbevel on the outside of the edge and the knife is ready to go. Cuts much thinner than it actually is and that convex shape really makes the knife feel alive.

UglyJoe
06-30-2011, 04:21 PM
Here are pics of my Mizuno, and you can see what I'm talking about.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb122/BillyTwilight/Mizuno%20Tanrenjo%20knives/DSC03048.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb122/BillyTwilight/Mizuno%20Tanrenjo%20knives/DSC03049.jpg

I used to actually polish the knife up to a nice kasumi finish, but the knife patinas so rapidly and so darkly that I no longer feel it's worth the time. It's polished up to a natural stone finish, particularly the edge. I didn't spend as much time on the flats getting the polish to look good, as I said it patinas just too darn fast. You can see on one side I've kept pretty close to the original "shinogi". On the other I haven't done quite as well but most of the mars above the bevel are due to stone mud and that being worked opposite to the way i'm used to working with single bevels. As is if I went back and hit this with a beston 500 with no mud I'd get scratch marks only below where the "shinogi" line is. So yes, it's real. And maybe if I were Jon or Dave or KC I could have done the sharpening and kept the shinogi transition clean and a straight line... Alas, I'm not.

Great knife.

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 05:08 PM
there is no shinogi line, fake minor or real on my Mizuno. there is a polish line that corresponds with no discernible changes to blade geometry. kudos for finding something that works for you and your knife. personally, single bevel knives with uneven blade roads and shinogis are bad enough for me as is. you've thinned the knife, which is of course going to increase performance. i have no interest in thinning mine. it's why i have a laser.

TamanegiKin
06-30-2011, 07:54 PM
Thanks for all the info y'all.
-Joe, is your Mizuno 240 or 270?

Is JCK THE place to get a Mizuno?
The Masamoto is tempting but I think I'd like to try
a blue2 knife next in line. All my knives are white 2 or varying
stainless and semi stainless steels.

UglyJoe
06-30-2011, 07:58 PM
Pretty much. I think you can order it direct from Mizuno, but I think the price actually ends up being MORE if you do that. Other than that, I don't really remember seeing Mizuno anywhere else on the web.

Mine is 270.

ER, yes, the knife is thinned a little bit, but I really haven't thinned it that much relative to how it was. The increase in performance comes from the convexed geometry and the "primary" edge being at a more acute angle than it was when I had sharpened it before. I've found myself falling into the camp of convexed geometry being better than anything else. It just cuts really, really well. We'll just have to disagree about the line. It's not polished in, it is generated from two planes meeting at an angle... it's a bevel. That angle is nearly flat though. You could round of the line and it would look like any other gyuto, but then you could do that with a deba or yanagi as well. My point is the bevel is flat from there to just below the lamination line, then convex to the edge. That's how the knife came from the factory for me, and that's how it was intended to be sharpened, IMO.

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 08:06 PM
my edge is convexed too, and i just about have the flats of the blade on the stone when i sharpen, and my bevels are pretty tall. the knife cuts really well. i really think the thinning is what is doing it, though. it doesn't take much to make a difference. i really think removing thickness behind the edge is a major improver of cutting performance. our knives are a bit different, if i remember correctly, and mine is very thin behind the edge already, so who knows. :)

JCK is definitely the place to get the mizuno.

UglyJoe
06-30-2011, 08:17 PM
Regardless, it's a great knife. I wish more people would give it a chance. I think a lot of laser lovers would be shocked out how well the Mizuno performs. And from everything I hear, the Shig as well.

IMO, the best "normal line" wa-gyutos from everything I've pieced together (and I've not actually used most of these, so take it with a grain of salt) are Shigefusa, Mizuno, DT ITK, Konosuke, Masamato, and Heiji. Not in any particular order.

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 08:21 PM
definitely great, great knives.

EdipisReks
06-30-2011, 08:51 PM
i just wanted to say that it's fine knife that can be approached from two very different directions with the same result: fantastic performance.

moggi1964
07-11-2011, 01:29 AM
I love my Mizuno Akitada Blue which I have had for probably three years now I think (maybe longer).

Wouldn't part with it especially as it has a "Fish" handle which is pretty. I am working the steel very slowly with some stones I got that will 'mist' the whole thing and make it look, well, different.

I'll post pictures when I finally finish it :)