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Eamon Burke
07-16-2011, 08:53 PM
Assuming there are no wierd or extra microbevels, and it is a standard 2-bevel v-grind: Which way do you use these terms for bevels:

1. The primary bevel is the bevel on the cutting edge, the secondary bevel is the next one up(closer to the spine).

2. The secondary bevel is the cutting edge, the primary bevel is the next one up(closer to the spine).

Are you in camp one or two? Whatever is the consensus will be reflected in the Glossary.:jumpy:

*edit* NO DISCUSSION! JUST SHUT UP AND VOTE!


Ok I"m only kidding, don't get offended. But seriously, I am just trying to discover the community consensus. I changed the name of hte post, if you guys wanna discuss(cause I do), you can start a new thread! It'll be easier that way.

EdipisReks
07-16-2011, 08:54 PM
i would say that the primary is always the cutting edge. makes it easy to keep things straight.

stevenStefano
07-16-2011, 08:56 PM
I'd refer to the larger of the bevels as the primary and the microbevel as the secondary, but it can be very confusing and the lack of one general definition is pretty frustrating

spaceconvoy
07-16-2011, 09:01 PM
You cut the primary bevel first, then your micro bevel is the secondary bevel.

EdipisReks
07-16-2011, 09:03 PM
You cut the primary bevel first, then your micro bevel is the secondary bevel.

see, i think the primary should always be the one that cuts the food, regardless of what order they are cut. i don't use microbevels (i find the absolute steepest grind that doesn't need one and then stick to it), so maybe i'm looking at this differently than most people.

SpikeC
07-16-2011, 09:03 PM
I feel that the first bevel ground is the primary, and the second bevel ground is the secondary. This is how the wood working people view it.

Eamon Burke
07-16-2011, 09:05 PM
You cut the primary bevel first, then your micro bevel is the secondary bevel.

No 'buts'! It's just a poll! lol.

I've got you down for group #2

mainaman
07-16-2011, 09:08 PM
I am in camp #2, the micro bevel is the secondary bevel for me.

EdipisReks
07-16-2011, 09:09 PM
I feel that the first bevel ground is the primary, and the second bevel ground is the secondary. This is how the wood working people view it.

but wood working people also sometimes feel that the wire edge is the working edge because it's the sharpest possible edge (until it fails, anyway). ;)

deanb
07-16-2011, 09:16 PM
I'm in camp one. I think it's time for Dave to weigh in.

echerub
07-16-2011, 09:29 PM
Camp 2

tk59
07-16-2011, 09:31 PM
I'm in camp 2 but a long time back, I was told to move to camp 1 or shut up, lol. I've been using camp 1 terminology since.

EdipisReks
07-16-2011, 09:34 PM
I'm in camp 2 but a long time back, I was told to move to camp 1 or shut up, lol. I've been using camp 1 terminology since.

heh. i just think that it makes the most sense to call the edge that cuts the primary, since these are tools that cut.

Pensacola Tiger
07-16-2011, 09:53 PM
Bevels? We don't need no stinkin' bevels! Everyone should convex with sandpaper on a mousepad, right?

EdipisReks
07-16-2011, 09:53 PM
Bevels? We don't need no stinkin' bevels! Everyone should convex with sandpaper on a mousepad, right?

i've been known to do that (well, actually large micro-mesh pads, but it's very similar), though i finish on stones and then strops.

Eamon Burke
07-16-2011, 09:56 PM
Bevels? We don't need no stinkin' bevels! Everyone should convex with sandpaper on a mousepad, right?
OK camp 3: Infinite bevels, together as one. It's very meta.


just kidding

THERE IS NO CAMP THREE!! GET IN LINE! :pirate2:

EdipisReks
07-16-2011, 09:57 PM
honestly, i find using a soft pad for final edges to be difficult.

James
07-16-2011, 09:59 PM
Camp 1; it just simplifies things a lot

Lefty
07-16-2011, 10:06 PM
Team Jacob!

WillC
07-16-2011, 10:30 PM
Camp 3, l prefer a fully convex final bevel, I find they hold a finer end angle better. Bound to really as the curve gives the edge more support.

SpikeC
07-16-2011, 10:53 PM
The truth revealed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_grind

Ichi
07-16-2011, 10:56 PM
So by that, #2 I origanally thought #1 :thumbsup2:

goodchef1
07-16-2011, 11:20 PM
I like group #1, but group #2 sounds nice also. So put me down for both

EdipisReks
07-16-2011, 11:21 PM
The truth revealed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_grind

pfffft.

so_sleepy
07-16-2011, 11:22 PM
"Primary" has both meanings, so your glossary would be incomplete and incorrect if you only sited one definition.

Primary: First in order of creation
Primary: First in order of rank

so_sleepy
07-16-2011, 11:24 PM
The truth revealed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_grind

Do you realize that anyone here can defeat that argument by editing the wiki page?

Dubsy
07-16-2011, 11:30 PM
okay, the whole argument of primary being the first ground edge on a blade is easily defeatable. some people grind an edge and put a microbevel on it, but whats to say someone ground the cutting edge, then put a back edge on it for easier cutting? so it could really go either way. but id say the Primary is the cutting edge.

DevinT
07-16-2011, 11:44 PM
secondary is the sharpening bevel.

Hoss

Dave Martell
07-17-2011, 12:04 AM
I'm a #1 person. I feel this way because every pro sharpener in the US talks this way and this is where I picked it up. I then had it cemented by reading the first book on knife sharpening ever written - John Juranitch's "The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening" and then also Leonard Lee's (of Lee Valley fame) book "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" where they both cite the cutting edge as the primary bevel.

SpikeC
07-17-2011, 12:08 AM
It is interesting that for every one that uses the terms one way that there are another that uses it the other way.
I'm with Hoss for what that is worth.

Dave Martell
07-17-2011, 12:11 AM
Yeah it's true Spike, everyone will give a different opinion.

Dave Martell
07-17-2011, 12:15 AM
I just found this old picture from Chad Ward's sharpening tutorial on eGullet which was the impetus for the creation of his book "An Edge in the Kitchen"

Backbevel = Secondary

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1063&d=1310872534

1063

Pensacola Tiger
07-17-2011, 12:21 AM
It seems as if it divides along the lines of knifemaker and knife sharpener. To a knifemaker like Hoss, the primary bevel is the first one ground on the blade, where for the sharpener like Juranitch, it's the one you grind to sharpen it.

Now where does that leave a sharpener who is on his way to becoming a knifemaker, Dave?

Rick

Dave Martell
07-17-2011, 12:27 AM
Now where does that leave a sharpener who is on his way to becoming a knifemaker, Dave?




:dazed: :D

Eamon Burke
07-17-2011, 12:49 AM
Well, I think I got my answer. I will address this discrepancy and nomenclatural divide in the bevel definitions! Thanks guys!

BTW, while I just can't wrap my head around it NOT being #2, #1 certainly has some big names! Dave, That Lee Valley guy, the Razors Edge guy, Chad Ward. Mighty company.

kalaeb
07-17-2011, 02:49 AM
Don't change anything yet...at least give it 48 hours to poll. Then recount...I am in for group 1. But to be honest I never was a numerically linear person so 2 kind of makes sense...nope, GROUP 1.

UglyJoe
07-17-2011, 03:33 AM
Murray Carter is a group 1 person as well... So am I.

MadMel
07-17-2011, 10:30 AM
Group 2 for me though...

Eamon Burke
07-17-2011, 12:14 PM
Don't change anything yet...at least give it 48 hours to poll. Then recount...I am in for group 1. But to be honest I never was a numerically linear person so 2 kind of makes sense...nope, GROUP 1.

Well, I was trying to determine if there is a clear overall consensus, or if it is a matter of confusion. It seems that for whatever reason, the knife industry has adopted method #1, despite other groups doing it differently. This is exactly what I was talking about, because there is specialized terminology that doesn't make sense to other groups.

If John Juranitch, Leonard Lee, Dave Martell, and Murray Carter all agree on #1, they will all put in their books, tutorials and DVDs that it is that way, and has been in the knife world for decades. As a result countless others will be taught to know it that way too. Not a problem for me! A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, right?

Dave Martell
07-17-2011, 12:16 PM
Well, I think I got my answer. I will address this discrepancy and nomenclatural divide in the bevel definitions!


This isn't a bad approach, I kind of like the idea.

euphorbioid
07-17-2011, 12:33 PM
#1

jm2hill
07-17-2011, 12:45 PM
#1 for me

Benuser
07-17-2011, 04:35 PM
The primary bevel is the one that forms the edge and will as first come into contact with the food - and board, perhaps. The secondary or relief bevel is the lower one behind the very edge.

Cadillac J
07-17-2011, 08:48 PM
I've always thought:

primary = cutting edge
secondary = relief/back bevel

No matter the order in which you put them on. For the people in the #2 camp, would you then consider the cutting edge of a knife with a complex three bevels to be the "third or tertiary bevel"? Sounds weird this way to me.

SpikeC
07-17-2011, 08:56 PM
It may sound weird but it makes perfect sense.

Eamon Burke
07-17-2011, 10:43 PM
I've always thought:

primary = cutting edge
secondary = relief/back bevel

No matter the order in which you put them on. For the people in the #2 camp, would you then consider the cutting edge of a knife with a complex three bevels to be the "third or tertiary bevel"? Sounds weird this way to me.

Because it is both put there third, and because it performs the functions of a bevel third. An assymetrical bevel on the cutting edge will not cause as severe a difference in steering at an assymetrical bevel right off the face. The weight of the knife and force of the motion is being balanced and distributed through the bevels, in their successive order, from the lateral center of balance, down to the edge.

The only sense in which the cutting edge is actually primary is when it is being used to cut something after being sharpened--in the grand scheme of things, it's actually pretty minor.

Also, if you have 2 matching bevels of the same dimensions and angles, then you put a wierd microbevel on one side only, then the microbevel and the other side are primaries, and the one that was ground directly becomes secondary, despite matching the other "primary" in form and function.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

tychoseven
07-18-2011, 01:02 AM
I'm in camp #2. The primary bevel goes on first and defines the overall geometry of the blade. The secondary bevel comprises the cutting edge and its shape is influenced by the choice of primary bevel.

Knifefan
07-18-2011, 05:31 AM
Camp #2. The primary bevel is the one that is created first.

rulesnut
07-18-2011, 07:15 AM
Camp #3. The edge bevel and the back bevel.

Is there anyone confused by this?

echerub
07-18-2011, 08:05 AM
Edge bevel vs back bevel is far clearer than primary vs secondary. I think half the time we talk about bevels we end up talking in terms of edge bevel vs back bevel.

DrNaka
07-19-2011, 01:09 AM
#2

But because many get confused with primary and secondary I use the Japanese term "Itoba" or the English term "microbevel"

UglyJoe
07-19-2011, 12:03 PM
I've never personally considered microbevels to be real bevels. I guess in my way of thinking, the microbevel should always be completely removed for a true sharpening of the knife, establishing a new, acute, weaker edge. This is the bevel I call a primary bevel. Then you microbevel the primary bevel to add strength and edge retention. You can thin the knife above the primary bevel as well, generating what in my way of thinking is a secondary bevel.

mr drinky
07-19-2011, 12:20 PM
I'm #1 but that is because of Dave. Intuitively though, #2 feels more right to me, I don't know why. Back and edge bevels are much clearer though.

k.

spaceconvoy
07-19-2011, 12:20 PM
Camp #3. The edge bevel and the back bevel.

I like this - I'm changing my vote

JBroida
07-19-2011, 03:04 PM
lol