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View Full Version : Microbevel angles do they matter??



jgraeff
07-30-2011, 12:25 PM
so i just learned about adding microbevels not too long ago and since then my edges have been so much better!

im curious though if they angles of microbevels matter, i normally sharpen at 15-18 and i do pretty high microbevel about 30 or more.

i haven't had any problems i just read a lot of threads and i see a lot that people sharpen at 12 with a 15 microbevel etc just curious if anyone has any input on this.

Eamon Burke
07-30-2011, 12:43 PM
Its really a function of how steep an edge your steel will accomodate. Hard, well treated steel will not require very wide angles to remain stable, and you can add a less severe microbevel and still see benefit. Softer steel, or poorly treated steel will need a bit more help to get that strong edge everyone needs.

As with all sharpening decisions, bevel angles depend on how the steel is treated, and what you plan on doing with it.

goodchef1
07-30-2011, 01:12 PM
depends on your steel, hrc, and carbide structure. Best you can do is to try different angles and look at results. micro-bevels serves to strengthen an edge, and you would not have the same resistance having a 30 degree edge bevel as opposed to 30 degree back bevel. But on a microscopic level, yes things are happening with your edge and food surface, but noticeable to those with sensitivity to feedback, such as a knife nut

jgraeff
08-03-2011, 12:14 PM
ok thanks guys!, ya the Kono HD has pretty high angles already i didn't change them because it is very sharp and holds the edge very well id say their about 20 or so, so my micro bevel is about 30ish.

Lefty
08-03-2011, 12:35 PM
I've kept the konosuke white 2 at the factory bevel, and it's pure cutting pleasure :)

mmingio2
08-03-2011, 02:24 PM
Took mine to 12d with and 18d micro on an Edge Pro...factory edge was great though...just wanted to experiment. This combo seems to have better performance retention...then again this is an easy knife to get performance out of and maintain it.


I've kept the konosuke white 2 at the factory bevel, and it's pure cutting pleasure :)

Adagimp
08-03-2011, 03:27 PM
Do they matter? Well yes, at least on some level.

Is the difference between a 15d and a 30d microbevel noticeable? Depends on your level of knuttiness, but most folks probably would not notice the difference.

What seems to be far more noticeable, with respect to cutting/sharpness, is the geometry at the edge of the knife. So if you've got a nicely thinned edge area with a 30 degree microbevel, it will be noticeably sharper than a knife with a thicker edge area but a 15 degree microbevel.

aaronsgibson
08-03-2011, 03:27 PM
Out of curiosity what would you guys consider factory for a kono white? I recently sharpened up mine and even asked Jon (whom I bought it from) and he wasn't even sure. So I took it to about 10 degrees and once again talking to Jon added a high mirco bevel as he does and it works VERY well. I've since added a TKC 240 which I got today (happy camper) I'll use it at work for the next few days what is the normal angle for a TKC performance? I'm assuming 10-15? Thanks everyone.

chazmtb
08-03-2011, 03:42 PM
I have a tkc, and put a very aggressive right bias angle on it. Don't know what the degree is, but it is very agressive on a already thin blade, maybe 10%. On the back side, all I do is touch up the back side so that I can debur and not work too much on that, That steel holds the acute egde pretty well, better than other steels that I have had, including carbon a/s steel of a hiromoto santoku that I had. For me, there is no need for a micro bevel for the TKC steel.

In contrast, I just got a hiromoto g3 210 suji, and man the steels are so much different. The angle I reprofiled was not as agressive as the TKC, for one reason, getting an accute angle is more difficult on a less wide blade of a suji, than a gyuto. Guess my hand motion is not very consistent on a thinner blade. I have done some thinning, sharpening, and stroping as I did with the TKC steel, and although it push cuts white paper fine, you can really feel how easily the TKC glides through the paper versus the g3 steel. Since it is a suji/petty, I did not put a microbevel on it. Man I wished they made 210 suji in that steel, although from what I hear that's the same steel as in the Konosuke HD. I wanted yo handle though.

JBroida
08-03-2011, 03:57 PM
i think people think that the bevels on some of these lasers are higher angles than they really are because the bevels are so small at the edge. they are that small because the knife is freaking thin near the edge. people ask me about this all of the time when talking about thin knives. the truth is no matter what you do the first time you sharpen one, you will be changing the bevel angle... the factory bevels are really that small. so i just tell people to pick an angle and stick with it. something between 10-20 degrees should work just fine (more or less is not such an issue... that would work too). if you want a more durable edge, do something in the higher part of that range (or even higher)... if you want a smooth cutting stupid sharp edge, do something on the lower end (or even lower). for microbevels, my general experience is that something in the 30-45 degree range works best. the key is to use a higher grit finishing stone (from 6k and up) and VERY VERY light pressure (almost no pressure at all).

GLE1952
08-03-2011, 04:53 PM
Jon,
I get the light pressure, but how many strokes?
Is there a feel or look you go for or just take a few swipes?

Glen

JBroida
08-03-2011, 05:09 PM
maybe 1-3.... i'm looking for an even microbevel at the edge about the width of a thin hair... the edge should still have a very sharp feeling, should still be able to shave hair, and should still have bite (for example enough to not slide across your thumbnail... discalimer: if the thumbnail test doesnt make sense to you, please dont try to do it)

chazmtb
08-03-2011, 06:29 PM
John,
Would stroping at a higher angle have the same effect as light strokes on a fine grit stone for a micro bevel?

Cadillac J
08-03-2011, 07:26 PM
Konosuke white#2 can take a super shallow angle, as I would estimate mine to be about 8 degrees per side (or whatever holding the spine 2-3mm off the stone face would be on my 270 gyuto)...and I don't put a microbevel on this either and it holds up just fine.

Cadillac J
08-03-2011, 07:31 PM
Man I wished they made 210 suji in that steel, although from what I hear that's the same steel as in the Konosuke HD

I'm curious as to where you heard this?

Only because I have a JCK Carbonext(which I thought had same steel as TKC) and a Kono HD, and besides being semi-stainless, they don't seem like the same steel to me. Maybe just heat-treated differently?

I'm not a metallurgist, so not sure if it even means anything, but the HD has almost like a grain pattern seen from the naked eye but the CN doesn't.

JBroida
08-03-2011, 08:47 PM
John,
Would stroping at a higher angle have the same effect as light strokes on a fine grit stone for a micro bevel?

not in my experience... there are a few reasons for this... first, the strops tend to be softer than the stones, so you end up with more rounding. If you used a harder strop, it would be better. Second, because strops tend to be used with super high grit compounds... its overdone. 6-8k is just about perfect. You have to make more passes on a strop than you would on a stone.

that being said, stropping to micro-convex (i'm just making stuff up here ;) ) an edge does give additional strength and durability. It works similarly, but still is distinctly different.

BertMor
08-04-2011, 05:56 PM
not in my experience... there are a few reasons for this... first, the strops tend to be softer than the stones, so you end up with more rounding. If you used a harder strop, it would be better. Second, because strops tend to be used with super high grit compounds... its overdone. 6-8k is just about perfect. You have to make more passes on a strop than you would on a stone.

that being said, stropping to micro-convex (i'm just making stuff up here ;) ) an edge does give additional strength and durability. It works similarly, but still is distinctly different.

Or just do what KC does, draw the knife across the stone, raise up to 30*-45* and run it across tip to heel. Its like one motion and he doesn't use any particular light stroke. I was surprised to see this, but I am coming to believe we way over think things

Vertigo
08-05-2011, 12:02 AM
I am coming to believe we way over think things:chin:

Eamon Burke
08-10-2011, 11:10 PM
Or just do what KC does, draw the knife across the stone, raise up to 30*-45* and run it across tip to heel. Its like one motion and he doesn't use any particular light stroke. I was surprised to see this, but I am coming to believe we way over think things

We do, but it is needed. I used to train at a boxing gym with a guy who would workout and spar with his hands up right above his forehead, his elbows almost at his chin. Looked funny as heck. But it's a well-known phenomenon that boxers drop their hands during an actual bout, because they are full of adrenaline and they are tired/stressed/distracted. His hands drop, they drop to right under his eyes.

Sometimes you have to climb the mountain and look down to fully understand ground level.

BertMor
08-11-2011, 10:26 AM
We do, but it is needed. I used to train at a boxing gym with a guy who would workout and spar with his hands up right above his forehead, his elbows almost at his chin. Looked funny as heck. But it's a well-known phenomenon that boxers drop their hands during an actual bout, because they are full of adrenaline and they are tired/stressed/distracted. His hands drop, they drop to right under his eyes.

Sometimes you have to climb the mountain and look down to fully understand ground level.

No doubt, but it can also lead us to think some things that are not really occuring. Grind metal on stone, make bevels meet, smooth edge and start cutting.

Now if you are also looking for some artistic qualities, that's a different story