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oivind_dahle
08-06-2011, 09:14 AM
Since Im not allowed to link to this site on this forum, here is copy from site:

Richmond Remedy Damascus Wa-Gyuto 240mm. We're working on producing the Richmond Remedy with Devin Thomas Bubble Wrap Damascus.

$399.95


As many of you I have no trouble with Mark, but this got my attention to day. Will this affect the custom knifemarket and the custom knifemakers? I cant imagine how a maker can match the pricing from Mark.

What do you guys think?

Lefty
08-06-2011, 09:15 AM
No comment

Marko Tsourkan
08-06-2011, 09:32 AM
Dumping.

The more I see, the more I am getting convinced that this is not about competition and business opportunity, but an attempt to push others out who don't sell through CKTG.

MR is willing to take a small or no profit but to make sure the others can't compete. If you call it competition, you are kidding yourself.

99Limited
08-06-2011, 09:50 AM
People who would buy this knife are probably not in the same category as those who would buy a semi or full on custom knife. It would be like saying, "Now that Mazda has the Miata, that will mark the end of the Porsche Boxster." We're not going to get into the fact that the Miata came out years before the Boxster, but you should get my point.

Salty dog
08-06-2011, 09:52 AM
Who's going to make it?

Pensacola Tiger
08-06-2011, 09:55 AM
Who's going to make it?

Lamson & Goodnow.

BertMor
08-06-2011, 09:55 AM
Yeah, naming it after yourself and giving it a (stupid) nickname. anyone can buy DT damascus, but who is making the knife is the real question. anyone out there want to stand up and take credit?

Marko Tsourkan
08-06-2011, 10:03 AM
It devalues work of others. Here is a simple mathematics. It cost MR about $100 (all cost included: steel, HT, grinding, handle, engraving, shipping between processes) to produce his Addict and he sells it for $150 - price includes shipping and payment processing. So, he is taking a profit of just a $40 (approximately) on a knife. At the same time he gets his Japanese knives at a wholesale prices that are 40-50% of what he retails them. Which one makes more business sense?

For people who are not knowledgeable, Remedy Damascus will look very similar to DT custom damascus or D. Ealy custom damascus, etc. and price point will play a deciding role. That is what MR is betting on.

Chinese have done it and look where US manufacturing is these days. Back than it was hailed like a great idea, globalization was to be a great thing. Well, what we got is a market flooded with cheap imitations and most quality makers moved manufacturing overseas or went out of business. I am looking for vintage American made machines some over 50 old, as they are better in quality than what you can buy these days new. Or look what Levi's jeans are these days! This is a consequence of dumping (or so called competition) and you as a buyer will eventually have a taste of that too.

History does repeat itself.

M

Seb
08-06-2011, 10:47 AM
Chinese have done it and look where US manufacturing is these days.

The Chinese had nothing to do with the failure of US manufacturing. That started long before the Chinese came into the picture.

Marko Tsourkan
08-06-2011, 11:09 AM
The Chinese had nothing to do with the failure of US manufacturing. That started long before the Chinese came into the picture.

You think? Compare the cost of production (even with high US worker productivity and high capital investment), Chinese currency manipulation, quality control, and so forth.

And thought I agree there is more than one factor that contributed to decline, foreign competition (unfair competition that is) plays an important role. But I don't want to turn this into a discussion about decline of US manufacturing. I used it as an example as many can relate to it, and you can to read more about it if you like.

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=5078&type=0



M

Seb
08-06-2011, 11:22 AM
The decline of American manufacturing was caused by greedy American corporations and venal American politicians. Before the Chinese came along, American industry was being schooled and owned by the Japanese.

And what is 'unfair competition' exactly? As if American businesses and governments have not used every dirty, filthy trick in the book to keep other people down.

Blaming the Chinese is simplistic nonsense and racist as well.

Marko Tsourkan
08-06-2011, 11:26 AM
I am not blaming Chinese for pursuing their national interests. I am stating the fact that majority of the goods in US are made in China and many are of inferior quality.

Calling my statements nonsensical or racist is pushing over the line. If you want to take this conversation private, please do. If you want to divert the attention from the subject in this thread, than say so.

M

echerub
08-06-2011, 11:32 AM
There will always be a market for real quality, particularly when it comes to small-volume specialty items like high-end knives. The issue is one of educating customers. Competing makers need to educate customers about how their products are superior beyond the damascus patterning and steel used.

We know that a knife is more than just the steel used, and that the skill, knowledge and effort applied by the knifemaker makes all the difference in terms of handling and performance - but that's not general knowledge out there yet. Damascus patterning and steel type for knives is like megapixels for digital cameras or horsepower for cars: it's an easily-understood but not necessarily meaningful "measure" for blank-slate or semi-knowledgeable customers to base their decisions on. The important thing is to communicate and educate about what else there is beyond that first-glance measure.

That education and communication won't be easy though. Many of us here have spent a lot of time to learn a lot of these things and we continue to teach one another what we learn. The challenge will be to communicate the key points to customers who are going to make their decision in a few minutes or a few days and don't have the interest to spend a lot of time to discuss and learn.

Whether the Remedy Damascus at 400 is dumping... I don't know about that. To me it's a whole different product, like a Miata is completely different from a Boxster. Both have four wheels, are similarly sized, are marketed as fun, zippy little cars, but I have zero interest in the Miata. Likewise, I have zero interest in this new knife. It's just a matter of perspective that comes with a bit of knowledge about the product and about my own preferences.

When my girlfriend was hunting for her own car for the first time, she didn't know the difference between any of the cars. To her, a car was a car was a car. I educated her over the course of a few test drive sessions with different models and now she truly understands the differences - and her preferences have changed with regards to what cars get her attention. The same can - and must - be done for knives, but in a more efficient fashion :)

JMJones
08-06-2011, 11:35 AM
I see it as just another factory knife, albeit with quality artisan made steel. The vast majority of kitchen knife users dont give a damn about thier knife, a smaller segment feels pretty good about their wushtoff/ henkels, a even smaller segment is into using higher quality factory offerings/ japanese knives and yet an even smaller subset is buying the high end products of makers here and other top level makers. I dont see this last subset too interested in this offering and it is pretty pricey for the demographic that is into factory knives.

ecchef
08-06-2011, 11:36 AM
I'm having trouble differentiating between this and all the Kramer replicas being produced by volume knife manufacturers.

Hell, if the formula worked for ol' Bob and nobody (except me) has an issue with it, then why get all huffy if Devin wants to give it a shot?

At least it's not being made in China! :rant:

Marko Tsourkan
08-06-2011, 11:43 AM
...
At least it's not being made in China! :rant:

Give it some time. That is how it starts.

Pensacola Tiger
08-06-2011, 11:43 AM
I'm having trouble differentiating between this and all the Kramer replicas being produced by volume knife manufacturers.

Hell, if the formula worked for ol' Bob and nobody (except me) has an issue with it, then why get all huffy if Devin wants to give it a shot?

At least it's not being made in China! :rant:

Devin's NOT making this knife, it is being farmed out to Lamson & Goodnow. The only connection Devin has is that he made the damascus billets.

A run of 70 is planned.

Seb
08-06-2011, 11:49 AM
I am not blaming Chinese for pursuing their national interests. I am stating the fact that majority of the goods in US are made in China and many are of inferior quality.

Calling my statements nonsensical or racist is pushing over the line. If you want to take this conversation private, please do. If you want to divert the attention from the subject in this thread, than say so.

M

Well, I take offense to your previous comments.

It's racial scapegoating (and therefore racist) to blame the Chinese for destroying/sabotaging American manufacturing when those to blame are in fact wealthy American shareholders and American megacorporations who chose to relocate offshore to line their own pockets.

Chinese factories are price takers. The real price makers (for manufacturing contracts of all kinds) are the American and other Western corporations who play factories off against each other and chisel the price down. The Americans take all the cream and the Chinese get the peanuts.

I get sick and tired and nauseated whenever I see these comments pinning the blame on China for the mess that America is in, and I am seeing these ignorant and simplistic comments everywhere. Americans created this mess. And if it wasn't the Chinese working like slaves to keep American consumers happy it would have been somebody else.

99Limited
08-06-2011, 11:56 AM
Seb... You need to give this subject a rest. Get back on track to the OT.

echerub
08-06-2011, 11:57 AM
I dont see this last subset too interested in this offering and it is pretty pricey for the demographic that is into factory knives.

The new knife in question is an interesting "bridge" for those who don't know or appreciate the difference design and production make in the final use of the product but want something pretty that makes for a bit of a status symbol. There's a market for it. I think it is something that other makers and sellers will have to respond to in some way. I don't think it will make a big impact on its own - but if this and others of its ilk are left alone and ignored, well yes, there could be some long-term impacts on makers.

The game goes both ways. High-end hands-on guys going into mid-tech or non-damascus products to seek the $400-500 market range are playing a similar game but from the other side. They're going after the folks who are knowledgeable but either can't or won't pay the higher prices their more involved work necessarily entail.

The contested ground here is the $400-500 market and there are different ways to approach the customers here because the customers are coming from different places in terms of knowledge, preference, and requirements. Some very reputed makers from Japan are playing in this same field too so it's a pretty busy little market band we're talking about.

Dave Martell
08-06-2011, 12:02 PM
Interesting topic......in my opinion...this move will de-value custom work on some level.

echerub
08-06-2011, 12:02 PM
A run of 70 is planned.

That's a pretty decent number. Someone certainly feels there's good potential there and I think this is a good number for testing the market. It's still going after folks who already know the Richmond line in the first place, so at this point it's still just a small addition to the overall picture. I think the more interesting question is where this line will go from here and how others - and who - will respond to it.

echerub
08-06-2011, 12:05 PM
To me there is no question at all that this move will de-value custom work on some level.

I think that is true, if nothing else changes. The way I think the devaluation can be parried is through education and awareness. I think everyone else still has an opportunity at this point to prevent the devaluation that we see approaching - I don't think it's inevitable. I think it's inevitable only if there is no long-term, sustainable response to this.

Seb
08-06-2011, 12:12 PM
Seb... You need to give this subject a rest. Get back on track to the OT.

Fine. But it had to be said.

goodchef1
08-06-2011, 12:30 PM
it seems to me that this is another "mountain out of a molehill" topic. How China manufacturing, and US competition got mixed up in this is beyond me. I believe Mark is not driving, looking in the rear view mirror, he is after a bigger market. Competition for consumers is good, it forces innovation and keeps prices reasonable.

I don't ever see production ever competing or getting mixed up with custom work. That's great that some choose to take that high road, but when it gets to the point where few have gone, you would be surprised at how many will sell-out if money and fame is involved.

hypothetical scenario, how many with a wife and kids would turn down 1mil, to put their name on a production knife that may or may not price a few friends out of the market? people should applaud success, not resent it.

If Mark's main reason to do this knife is for revenge, or to focus on a few people to keep them from selling knives, then I wouldn't worry to much about his future success because there won't be.

Marko Tsourkan
08-06-2011, 12:42 PM
@ Seb - Obviously you want to make a public statement, rather than address any issues you have with my comments in private. Rant away! But don't forget to live by what you preach.

Some things I said about China are very true. From devalued currency, to destruction of environment, to its involvement in neo-colonizing in Africa and other developing world countries, China is pursuing its national interests and it is all to it.

My issue here is with unfair competition, whether most agree with me or not, I am sticking to my guns.

Devin is a steel maker first and knife maker second. Please don't make a negative association because CKTG commissioned his steel for the project. If he didn't supply the steel, somebody else would.

I might overreacted a bit with my posts, but ultimately, I didn't say anything that I want to take back. "Live and let live" is something that some people just can't accept.


M

Vertigo
08-06-2011, 12:43 PM
It's a great business move. People can pay $350 for a Kramer "knock-off" at WS and now they can pay $400 for a DT "knock-off" at CKTG. Obviously if Devin or Bob thought this would seriously impact their custom market, they wouldn't be doing it. Instead, it puts their brand at a price point accessible to people who otherwise couldn't afford it. Just one more half-assed knife in a sea of half-assed knives. The world keeps turning.

mr drinky
08-06-2011, 12:55 PM
Trying to get back on topic (sort of). I think it will be interesting to see how this plays out. In California the best grape growers just don't sell grapes to anyone as they don't want a mediocre winery producing medium quality wines with their grapes. That's not good for the grape grower. I'm sure Devin has thought about the pluses and minuses, but for me I see the biggest risk to him in this venture. His steel is definitely the selling point of this knife and his name will be talked about when selling it. I wouldn't be surprised to see this in a cooking magazine at some point, especially since Mark is getting a track record with the mags.

Anyhow, I'd hate to see blade or production problems that might spill over to Devin's name. When I was trying to get Al Pendray to sell me a billet of wootz to have someone make a blade, the reply was 'no'. He used to do that but people kept messing up the heat treat and he didn't want is name associated with poorly performing knives.

Again, I am sure Devin knows what he is doing, but I personally would trust Adam Marr, Marko, or any of the other makers who are using his steel to make my knife -- even if I had to pay more for it.

k.

ecchef
08-06-2011, 12:55 PM
Devin's NOT making this knife, it is being farmed out to Lamson & Goodnow. The only connection Devin has is that he made the damascus billets.

A run of 70 is planned.

That's precisely why I'm comparing it to the Kramer clones.

Oh, by the way Seb, Marko's point has absolutely nothing to do with race. "Chinese" is not a race, it's a nationality. It's their national (cultural) business ethics that are questionable, not their dna arrangement. I certainly don't like China's business practices. Does that make me a racist? Ask my Asian wife.

tk59
08-06-2011, 12:55 PM
I guess if I just had to have something in damascus but I didn't want to pay $1k, I might go with this knife. I believe custom work has always been driven by exculsivity and a customer's own shot at his/her own take on ultimate performance and aesthetics. This does not affect my attitude toward custom work in the slightest. Who wants an exclusive knife that has an odd nickname stamped on it? It seems to me that Mark is simply getting something out with a damascus core because there aren't very many out there. I've looked at Koki's site a few times just to look at the damascus core line there. Why not buy one with Devin's damascus in it instead? Just my $0.02.

These are not clones of Devin's work. This is nothing like the Kramer line. This is an apple pie that tastes like any other nice apple pie except it has some fancier apples in it.

oivind_dahle
08-06-2011, 01:04 PM
For makers that are known this knife will be of no threat.
However I believe this knife will be a treat to those who want to enter the kitchenknife market.

For Dave, Marko, Fowler and a lot of other newcommers I truly believe this knife will be a threat. Most people buy a knife because of looks and not the cutting ability. The few nuts on this forum is NOT the majority, so I truly believe massproduction of great looking knives will eventually make it difficult to compete with.

I have not tried a remedy, but Im sure its way beyon the need in a normal homekitchen.

Marko Tsourkan
08-06-2011, 01:23 PM
We will see. There are some things that machines can't do and that is what kept folks like Shigefusa in business, but ultimately, the best defense against unfair competition is to work harder for less and share less because of data mining. I don't have more to add to this topic.

M

maxim
08-06-2011, 01:28 PM
We will see. There are some things that machines can't do and that is what kept folks like Shigefusa in business, but ultimately, the best defense against unfair competition is to work harder for less and share less . This is an unfortunate side product of public forums. I don't have more to add to this topic.

M

Yep vendors like him make it difficult for others to share information on open forum :(

BertMor
08-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Its a pity we can't 'charge' Mark for all the info he has learned from us. I remember a scant year ago that he was a total n00b who didn't know 404SS from White #2. Much of his sucess is a regurgitation of our discussions over the years. Oh well

ajhuff
08-06-2011, 02:46 PM
Wow you guys are harsh. Must be a lot of bad blood out there.

I don't know much but this knife looks no different than what is supplied by Ford. You can but a Mercury, Ford or Lincoln. In the end they are all the same with differing levels of refinement. I personally put Mercury at the bottom of that list. To me Lamson is the Merc, this knife is the Ford and the DT is the Lincoln. And I am talking about perceived quality to the end user so don't go off on a tangent about customization and workmanship. It's all about the end user not the maker.

-AJ

PS. I have almost 20 years in the foundry making primarily parts for the automotive industry but several others as well, so I have first hand experience. Seb is spot on and that's all I will say about that.

mpukas
08-06-2011, 03:39 PM
Wow you guys are harsh. Must be a lot of bad blood out there.
+1


Seb is spot on and that's all I will say about that.

+2

mpukas
08-06-2011, 03:45 PM
Dave - you should really start another off-topic sub-forum for threads like this, and move it there. There's abosolutely nothing interesting, informative or relative to kitchen knives and sharpening in this thread. If you and some other members want to engage in debating and bashing other people for what they did, said or choose to do, that fine - this is your party after all - but there are many of us find great value in your forum and don't care to engage in or even be bothered by this nonsense.

apicius9
08-06-2011, 03:55 PM
Maybe it hurts a bit to see that the US are getting beaten at their own game - unregulated capitalism?

As for the knife, I agree that it will probably ride on Devin's reputation, and I am sure there will be a market for it. It's a smart move to occupy the 'middle segment' between the better production knives and the full custom ones, and I also assume it will compete most with the products of new malers who have yet to make a name for themselves.

Stefan

sj9603
08-06-2011, 04:10 PM
Dave - you should really start another off-topic sub-forum for threads like this, and move it there. There's abosolutely nothing interesting, informative or relative to kitchen knives and sharpening in this thread. If you and some other members want to engage in debating and bashing other people for what they did, said or choose to do, that fine - this is your party after all - but there are many of us find great value in your forum and don't care to engage in or even be bothered by this nonsense.

I like it where it is. It is interesting, informative, and downright relative to kitchen knives, especially to people who are planning to invest in custom knives. Well, that investment just might go the way US stock market went these days.

Vertigo
08-06-2011, 04:29 PM
relative to kitchen knives and sharpening in this thread.
Ah yes, discussing the merits and flaws of a national vendor creating inexpensive, mass-produced knives, using a well known custom maker's damascus billets--as well as how the new product might impact the custom market--isn't knife related at all.

NO ChoP!
08-06-2011, 05:15 PM
I think the custom makers should focus on perfecting their product if they want to stay viable. You can slap a cool handle on a flat POS with an edge, and it will never outperform the likes of a Masamoto, shig, Mizuno, Watanabe, etc..

EdipisReks
08-06-2011, 06:01 PM
The Chinese had nothing to do with the failure of US manufacturing.

there is no failure of US manufacturing. consumer goods that are driven primarily by end cost aren't made here, but a hell of a lot certainly is. now US manufacturing employment may certainly be a failure...

Eamon Burke
08-06-2011, 06:15 PM
It's an American sold, American made knife, made from American steel. This is not outsourcing in any way, shape, or form.

It's like asking if Hungry Man dinners will put restaurants out of business. Yes, some people are going to eat from the freezer instead.
All of the people? No.
Will it shut down restaurants that are putting out food that is equivalent to Hungry Man dinners? Yes it will.

If you make knives by hand that are exactly the same in form and function as something that Lamson & Goodnow can do cheaper with a machine, then you'd better market it for what it is--a specialty/novelty product, or a hobby. I do not doubt that these knives are not going to compare to the knives you can get in their range--one of Dave's, Butch's etc.

My only problems with this brand has ever been the following:
1. It's a CKTG store-brand, and a little weird that they are named after Mark specifically. Not a big issue, since Mark doesn't advertise himself as a knife maker.
2. It's pricey. Some of you think they are so cheap they will put people out of business, but I think they are not quite cheap enough. Mark knows what he is doing, so he can make money how he will. I'd sell em cheaper.


Keep in mind, the bulk of Mark's business is no longer on this forum. It's run-of-the-mill dudes who can't tell a Shigefusa from a Masamoto. Everyone at my job was unimpressed with the Fowler and Rader passarounds I was testing--because they don't know what they are looking at, and don't know quality when they see it. I would venture to say that most home and pro cooks couldn't really tell the difference between a Richmond and a Shun.

It's an odd niche that he is selling these too, and I don't see it harming any reputable maker's business very much at all.

tk59
08-06-2011, 06:29 PM
Frankly, I think he does it, in part, because it's fun. I certainly think it would be cool to design a knife and then actually be able to sell it. I'd rather make it myself or have someone else with considerably greater skill do it but to each his own, I suppose.

wenus2
08-06-2011, 06:40 PM
I'm sure Devin has thought about the pluses and minuses, but for me I see the biggest risk to him in this venture. His steel is definitely the selling point of this knife and his name will be talked about when selling it.

Thats what I see as the main problem with the product, because it doesn't have a makers name attached to it.

For example, when Marko makes a knife from DT steel the end product is a Tsourkan knife, and while the origin of the steel would be noted, the perceived craftsman is Marko.
On this knife I see the perceived craftsman being DT regardless of the fact he did not make it, because nobody in particular is making it and his name is the only talking point, and/or quality point.

I don't see it affecting the new custom makers because, lets be honest, you have to be in the know to even find them anyway. Even if some knife nutt entrant buys the knife he will eventually buy another, and another, and another (we all know how this goes) and it will likely be from a different (better?) maker. That same customer would have (or did) likely purchased a factory Kramer or a Miyabi anyway when starting out, just as most of us have owned a Shun at some point. This would just be another early stop in that progression, and it's from these types of products that we learn to appreciate the really good stuff, it gives us our frame of reference.

You guys know that Putz (no offense to the putz) shelling out $15k for Kramers on Ebay? Well, I see the real power market for this knife being his neighbors trying to keep up with the Jones'. People who can't tell the difference in performance from their Cutco anyway, so it wont matter if there is none. "Look at this pretty knife I found on the internet Honey, lets have a dinner party catered so I can put it on the table for people to see how fancy we are."

stevenStefano
08-06-2011, 06:42 PM
$400 is quite a lot of money for a knife. Is the Remedy out yet? It would take a lot for me to spend such money on a knife, and I'd be much more concerned with the blade profile/geometry and that sort of thing than the damascus pattern. If the Remedy turns out good perhaps this would be popular. I have never ordered any sort of custom, but could anyone give a rough idea what the starting price would be for a 240 because I am thinking $400 is pretty close? If the Remedy is close to a custom price I think I'd rather do that because you'd have much more input into its design

99Limited
08-06-2011, 06:57 PM
... On this knife I see the perceived craftsman being DT regardless of the fact he did not make it, because nobody in particular is making it and his name is the only talking point, and/or quality point.

Using your logic then, the company that supplied the steel for the other Richmond knives should be perceived as being the craftsmen for those knives. You can bet nobody has come to that conclusion.

tk59
08-06-2011, 07:05 PM
$400 is quite a lot of money for a knife. Is the Remedy out yet? It would take a lot for me to spend such money on a knife, and I'd be much more concerned with the blade profile/geometry and that sort of thing than the damascus pattern. If the Remedy turns out good perhaps this would be popular. I have never ordered any sort of custom, but could anyone give a rough idea what the starting price would be for a 240 because I am thinking $400 is pretty close? If the Remedy is close to a custom price I think I'd rather do that because you'd have much more input into its design
If you buy damascus, you can expect to pay for the extra labor and the wasted steel. Afterall, some dude has to stand there and pound chunks of steel together inside an oven over and over again and ends up throwing most of it away in the process. $400 for a damascus blade is pretty inexpensive.

wenus2
08-06-2011, 07:13 PM
Using your logic then, the company that supplied the steel for the other Richmond knives should be perceived as being the craftsmen for those knives. You can bet nobody has come to that conclusion.

No, because it wasn't a selling point. I wouldn't doubt if a good percentage of the actual owners don't even know what the steel is. That won't be the case with this knife.
I wasn't using the term "craftsman" loosely in my initial statement.

oivind_dahle
08-06-2011, 07:25 PM
I have never ordered any sort of custom, but could anyone give a rough idea what the starting price would be for a 240 because I am thinking $400 is pretty close? If the Remedy is close to a custom price I think I'd rather do that because you'd have much more input into its design

A Custom Damascus or Sanmai starts at about 1000 USD
A Devin Thomas Custom Damascus 240 Gyuto starts at 1500 USD
A Bill Burke Custom 240 Gyuto starts at 2100 USD
A Bob Kramer Custom 240 Gyuto starts at 10000 USD

99Limited
08-06-2011, 07:34 PM
No, because it wasn't a selling point. I wouldn't doubt if a good percentage of the actual owners don't even know what the steel is. That won't be the case with this knife.
I wasn't using the term "craftsman" loosely in my initial statement.

Well, we will never know why someone will buy theses knives. IMO, a good number of people will buy the knife because it's, "Made with this cool looking, fancy designed steel. I think it's called damascus." They're not going to know who DT is or anything about his skills. Even if MR comes up with a good back story about DT and sticks it in the box with the knife, quiz these buyers a year later about the steel and they're going to say, "Umm, I think it's Mark Richmond, but I don't remember for sure."

stevenStefano
08-06-2011, 07:35 PM
Oivind that is quite informative, I've always been curious about such prices, very few people seem to talk about prices. I was talking more about regular customs, not damascus. I know it isn't a true comparison, I meant more that if I had around $400 I'd rather go for something like a Rodrigue

oivind_dahle
08-06-2011, 07:54 PM
The problem with custom knives are not the price, its the waiting ;)

Pensacola Tiger
08-06-2011, 07:55 PM
The problem with custom knives are not the price, its the waiting ;)

Don't think of it as waiting, but rather savor the anticipation.

Marko Tsourkan
08-06-2011, 08:24 PM
I think the custom makers should focus on perfecting their product if they want to stay viable. You can slap a cool handle on a flat POS with an edge, and it will never outperform the likes of a Masamoto, shig, Mizuno, Watanabe, etc..

Is the public prepared to pay for the extra time and effort that goes into making a top quality knife, especially when an inexpensive look-alike is available at a fraction of a cost? That's the catch. CKTG market for these knives are forums, not outside of them. Outside people buy Shun or $5.95 Forschner. Maybe Tojiro.

steeley
08-06-2011, 08:42 PM
70 knifes is a drop in the ocean of kitchen knifes made.
and i blame Walmart.
unless they have hungry man dinners cheaper.:chin:

jmforge
08-06-2011, 08:45 PM
I don't know. With the press coverage about guys like Bob Kramer that we have been seeing lately, there may be quite a large market for custom knives if you are willing to bite your tongue and sell to yuppies who will put your gorgeous knives on top of their uber-expensive 6 burner Wolf commercial range that only sees food when they put take out containers on it. :D
Is the public prepared to pay for the extra time and effort that goes into making a top quality knife, especially when an inexpensive look-alike is available at a fraction of a cost? That's the catch. CKTG market for these knives are forums, not outside of them. Outside people buy Shun or $5.95 Forschner. Maybe Tojiro.

rockbox
08-06-2011, 08:46 PM
If you can't compete with a McDonalds Angus burger, then you maybe you shouldn't be in the restaurant business.

You shouldn't expect to make a decent living in field where people are willing to spend money doing it. In fields like sports, acting and art, only the very top of the field make money while most have to spend money to participate. This especially true for the high end kitchen knife market. The market is not that big with a lot of people willing to make knives at a loss. For instance it would be much less expensive for me to buy a knife from Hoss, Carter, or Rader than it cost to buy all the equipment I have bought in the last year trying to make knives, and theirs would have been "better" quality.

Mark is a business man. It's not much more effort for him to order some steel from Hoss, ship it to whomever he has making them and sticking it on his website than it does for him to order a Tojiro or CCK from the manufacturer. If he can make 50 bucks a knife and sell 100 of them, then that is 5000 dollars for making some phone calls and shipping some boxes. Capital isn't even a big issue for him because he will probably sell the knives as fast as he can get them and in most cases, before he gets them. For the consumer, they can get a great knife at a fairly low price. For Hoss, he can do what he loves to do without having to spend time marketing himself. For the knife manufacturer, they have the volume to keep their employees busy. The only person it hurts is the competitors, but as I said at the beginning of this post; "If you can't compete with a Mcdonalds Angus burger, then maybe you should consider doing something else." It's not Mark's job to worry about if his COMPETITORS can make a living, just like its not not SLT, WS, or Cutlery and More's job to worry Mark can make a living.

chazmtb
08-06-2011, 09:14 PM
Want a good knife, get a ichimonji tkc.

Marko Tsourkan
08-06-2011, 09:16 PM
I think you are confusing dumping and competition. I should have used word dumping through the thread to make things more clear. I have no problem with competition either from makers or retailers like Jon.

Mark is businessman, but I don't see him taking a $50 profit on Japanese knives he is selling and giving you guys a break for all the help you gave him. By your logic, Tom, he should do just that and sell a volume, but he doesn't. (I understand there might be some price agreements, but in principle, if he wanted, he could do it).

I do have an issue with dumping and you would probably too, if it is affected your work and livelihood. I bet your company has an army of lawyers and lobbyists to address that very notion.

It's that simple. Anyway, I know enough about capitalism, so you can spare yourself a lecture. And besides, I can compete with an MD Angus burger, and if not, I will find somethings else to do.

M

tk59
08-06-2011, 09:18 PM
Want a good knife, get a ichimonji tkc.

+1 If you already have one of those, get a custom? :D

chazmtb
08-06-2011, 09:27 PM
I had, still like the customized tkc better.

jmforge
08-06-2011, 09:35 PM
Really? $1000 minimum for a decent custom damscus or san mai gyuto? I'm REALLY liking this forum.:biggrin:
A Custom Damascus or Sanmai starts at about 1000 USD
A Devin Thomas Custom Damascus 240 Gyuto starts at 1500 USD
A Bill Burke Custom 240 Gyuto starts at 2100 USD
A Bob Kramer Custom 240 Gyuto starts at 10000 USD

apicius9
08-06-2011, 09:40 PM
Really? $1000 minimum for a decent custom damscus or san mai gyuto? I'm REALLY liking this forum.:biggrin:

No, those are the prices for the Europeans, they can afford it ;)

Stefan

DevinT
08-06-2011, 09:47 PM
Wow, this has stirred up some stuff.

I have made steel for Buck, Case, Benchmade, Microtech, Camilus, Boker, Spyderco, Protech, Chris Reeve, William Henry, Emerson, Kershaw, Lone Wolf, Marble's, and Queen Cutlery to name a few that I can think of along with thousands of individual knife makers.

I have sold steel in many foreign countries including China, Russia, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, all European countries, and many from south America and Asia.

My primary business is patterned welded damascus steel. Lampson has been wanting to do some in damascus for some time. Lampson is the one that suggested the idea to Mark and Mark thought of me.

Lampson makes knives for lots of people and this gives me a chance to get in on some of their other projects.

This is not a custom knife but rather a factory knife made in damascus steel. I think that this will also get my name out to a new group of kitchen knife buyers.

If some of you are offended by my taking this work, please forgive me.

For those who support me in this , thank you.

Love and respect

Hoss

Mattias504
08-06-2011, 09:50 PM
There is a lot of beef going around that is a little too harsh. Like I read earlier, this knife applies to a small target of consumers, so just let it be. I doubt a DT damascus Richmond knife would cut into custom makers business. If anything it will make people want to get a custom knife. At least that seems to be the way that this kind of stuff works out. Who's ever heard of someone just buying one knife and stopping....

chazmtb
08-06-2011, 09:53 PM
It's not you. In this forum, the name Mark Richmownd leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouth because his previous business practice. Anything carrying his name will be met with trepidation and scrutiny.

ecchef
08-06-2011, 11:15 PM
I would buy this knife. Why? Because in my present financial state, I really can't afford a 4 figure splurge on a single knife. For $400 I can get actual DT damascus, which is the selling point of this knife. If the performance sucks, I could send it to Dave for a tune up (& he could grind off the stupid logo). Same with the handle. And I'm still within budget. And I would use it in rotation because it's not a $1000+, one-off knife.
I only own 1 damascus clad so I'm not a damascus whore. If I could justify buying a full custom at full pop I would, but I can't so this would work for me.
I'm not goinig to get one though, because I have other knife purchases in the pipeline that are higher priority and I don't need another gyuto.

SpikeC
08-06-2011, 11:23 PM
What about HT on these? Is Lamson going to do it?

rockbox
08-07-2011, 12:18 AM
I think you are confusing dumping and competition. I should have used word dumping through the thread to make things more clear. I have no problem with competition either from makers or retailers like Jon.

Mark is businessman, but I don't see him taking a $50 profit on Japanese knives he is selling and giving you guys a break for all the help you gave him. By your logic, Tom, he should do just that and sell a volume, but he doesn't. (I understand there might be some price agreements, but in principle, if he wanted, he could do it).

I do have an issue with dumping and you would probably too, if it is affected your work and livelihood. I bet your company has an army of lawyers and lobbyists to address that very notion.

It's that simple. Anyway, I know enough about capitalism, so you can spare yourself a lecture. And besides, I can compete with an MD Angus burger, and if not, I will find somethings else to do.

M

Dumping implies a country is subsidizing the export of items so it that it can people out of business. Retailers sell loss leaders all the time. Pretty much every item in the ads on black friday is sold at a loss just to get people in the store. There is nothing wrong with it. However, Mark is doing neither of these things. He is selling a knives at a nice profit. 20-30 percent is pretty good when all you have to do is put it on a shelf and ship it when an order comes in from the internet. I can tell you Amazon would kill for 20 percent margin on all their goods. Newegg would kill for 10 percent on their items.

When I use to work for a different company than I do now. We sold systems to Dreamworks for 30 percent BELOW cost just to get their business. We lost 3 million just in one order.

ajhuff
08-07-2011, 01:45 AM
Wow, this has stirred up some stuff.

I have made steel for Buck, Case, Benchmade, Microtech, Camilus, Boker, Spyderco, Protech, Chris Reeve, William Henry, Emerson, Kershaw, Lone Wolf, Marble's, and Queen Cutlery to name a few that I can think of along with thousands of individual knife makers.

I have sold steel in many foreign countries including China, Russia, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, all European countries, and many from south America and Asia.

My primary business is patterned welded damascus steel. Lampson has been wanting to do some in damascus for some time. Lampson is the one that suggested the idea to Mark and Mark thought of me.

Lampson makes knives for lots of people and this gives me a chance to get in on some of their other projects.

This is not a custom knife but rather a factory knife made in damascus steel. I think that this will also get my name out to a new group of kitchen knife buyers.

If some of you are offended by my taking this work, please forgive me.

For those who support me in this , thank you.

Love and respect

Hoss

Good on you and respect right back atchya! :-T

Sounds to me like THE END should have gone after that post.

-AJ

Dave Martell
08-07-2011, 03:12 AM
I've been thinking about this off and on all day. Sure it's typical Mark-eting at work here (we hate this) but we can be pretty sure that this will just be another full belly slab with box handle knife. Sure some folks will be fooled (and later pissed) while some will be happy as hell with it but anyone who digs a little deeper will find a better value for the price even if not as pretty looking (lacking the damascus).

Regarding Devin's role in this, how can any of us slight him? I hope nobody because the bottom line is if he feels it's good for him then who are we to say? Besides as Marko pointed out earlier in the thread Mark would (if he really wanted it bad enough) just go somewhere else for damascus anyway. Devin can't be held responsible for what someone does with his steel once it's gone out the door and his name isn't on the knives although knowing Mark I'm sure the name brand recognition is something worth paying for and to be used. Again though, I think that Devin knows what he's doing and we should respect that. I hate to see him get dragged into the mud with the pig.

NO ChoP!
08-07-2011, 03:37 AM
Wow, I can assure you no one has ever read a single slanderous word written by Mark Richmond; and his character is in question.........

goodchef1
08-07-2011, 03:50 AM
Lampson makes knives for lots of people and this gives me a chance to get in on some of their other projects.

This is not a custom knife but rather a factory knife made in damascus steel. I think that this will also get my name out to a new group of kitchen knife buyers.


This sums it up how others benefit from people's success. A good launch by Lampson not only benefits MR, but DT also. This will broaden his market appeal/exposure and possibly take him to a new level of commercial branding. As the saying goes, "it's not personal, just business" and to reach or tap that market with enormous disposable income will do wonders for anyone's family

NO ChoP!
08-07-2011, 03:54 AM
“Never throw mud. You may miss your MARK, but you will have dirty hands.”

Eamon Burke
08-07-2011, 03:58 AM
Wow, I can assure you no one has ever read a single slanderous word written by Mark Richmond; and his character is in question.........

Its only slander if it isn't true. A difference of perspective comes with the territory. Invasion/Expansion, Savings/Excess, Innovation/Profiteering, Harvesting/Destroying. It depends where you stand.

NO ChoP!
08-07-2011, 04:24 AM
I stand alone, obviously. Irregardless, I am tired of reading these negative posts. I have a mind of my own, and don't need to ride on anyones bandwagon; especially one designed specifically to harm others. Keep this crap out of the forums, it is poison!!!!!!

El Pescador
08-07-2011, 04:26 AM
I stand alone, obviously. Irregardless, I am tired of reading these negative posts. I have a mind of my own, and don't need to ride on anyones bandwagon; especially one designed specifically to harm others. Keep this crap out of the forums, it is poison!!!!!!

"irregardless" isn't a word btw.

echerub
08-07-2011, 08:52 AM
It's true that Mark hasn't written anything about anyone else with quite the same bite that we've got going. I understand that there are some strong feelings based on past experience and I can relate, but there are different ways to word the same thoughts that get the point across.

ajhuff
08-07-2011, 10:35 AM
"irregardless" isn't a word btw.

It is south of the Ohio River :P

-AJ

99Limited
08-07-2011, 12:20 PM
:happy2: From a southern boy.

Vertigo
08-07-2011, 12:22 PM
I think it's actually weaseled itself into most dictionaries, where it's defined as "a fictional word used by befuddled goons who can't figure out if they mean 'irrespective' or ''regardless.'"

Lulz.

Marko Tsourkan
08-07-2011, 12:39 PM
I stand alone, obviously. Irregardless, I am tired of reading these negative posts. I have a mind of my own, and don't need to ride on anyones bandwagon; especially one designed specifically to harm others. Keep this crap out of the forums, it is poison!!!!!!

Haha. You want more censorship? Ever hear of KF and what happened to it? Maybe some could invite Mike S. to teach us some common sense?

I slept on it and today I would like to make peace with everybody. I won't take anything I said back (still convinced) but won't add more.

If I try to live by motto "live and let live" I have to put up with those who do just the opposite. I have to find a way to do better than them, and that is not a bad thing, as it forces you to innovate, improve, and explore new things. The problem with that is it all can be copied and produced for less (read imitation) and you are back at a drawing board. I love how some of us use logic to justify anything (read capitalism, businessman), but there is also a such a think as business ethics, community, loyalty (or at least respect) to people who helped you. To each his own, I suppose.

Enough of that. Back to making better knives.

M

dough
08-07-2011, 01:29 PM
wow this crap storm continues most likely until everyone is ruined.
the following quote is the terrible direction of things:

"I need some help. As most of you guys can verify I haven't said a bad word about anyone on this or any other forum but 2 of my competitors don't seem to share my view that such behavior is the accepted way you should treat your competition.

I'm working on collecting material that these two individuals have said about me and my business in public over the past year and would love to get some help. If you've seen anything where these 2 guys have used my name and said anything that is remotely derogatory I would love to get a link to the thread. I'm sure I'm missing stuff. If you need to know who I'm talking about please pm me.

To be honest I have enough right now to go visit with my attorney but I want as strong a case as possible before I put the hammer down.

I'm an open source kind of guy so feel free to link to stuff right here if you want. Otherwise just send me a pm. I really appreciate all the support and communication you guys have provided me up to now. Time to charge for unfair business practices. "

if feelings or businesses were hurt before this can only further batter the situation. it is not "live and let live" btw it has always been "live and let die" especially in business.

NO ChoP!
08-07-2011, 01:31 PM
"irregardless" isn't a word btw.

"Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance."

From Webster, by the way......

goodchef1
08-07-2011, 01:35 PM
I stand alone, obviously. Irregardless, I am tired of reading these negative posts. I have a mind of my own, and don't need to ride on anyones bandwagon; especially one designed specifically to harm others. Keep this crap out of the forums, it is poison!!!!!!

:plus1: I applaud people who speak their mind (with professional restraint of course), who speak on principles, who stand up to bullying when others are afraid.

Forums will always have petty rivalries, side taking, bullying, bias reviews etc.etc. the bigger it gets. Personalities clash even through posts. Just keep on keeping on man, we need people like you too!

NO ChoP!
08-07-2011, 01:37 PM
I don't want this sight to censor anything, but as respectable individuals we should sensor ourselves.

I want to talk about knives, not be involved in others petty quarrels! This crap is drudged up continually and is harming this community...

jmforge
08-07-2011, 01:41 PM
Perhaps we should conversate about this in another thread.:biggrin:
"irregardless" isn't a word btw.

UglyJoe
08-07-2011, 01:56 PM
wow this crap storm continues most likely until everyone is ruined.
the following quote is the terrible direction of things:

"I need some help. As most of you guys can verify I haven't said a bad word about anyone on this or any other forum but 2 of my competitors don't seem to share my view that such behavior is the accepted way you should treat your competition.

I'm working on collecting material that these two individuals have said about me and my business in public over the past year and would love to get some help. If you've seen anything where these 2 guys have used my name and said anything that is remotely derogatory I would love to get a link to the thread. I'm sure I'm missing stuff. If you need to know who I'm talking about please pm me.

To be honest I have enough right now to go visit with my attorney but I want as strong a case as possible before I put the hammer down.

I'm an open source kind of guy so feel free to link to stuff right here if you want. Otherwise just send me a pm. I really appreciate all the support and communication you guys have provided me up to now. Time to charge for unfair business practices. "

if feelings or businesses were hurt before this can only further batter the situation. it is not "live and let live" btw it has always been "live and let die" especially in business.


He quoted this from CKTG's subforum on ITK, for those who can't/won't get on there to see it. Sheesh.

Dave Martell
08-07-2011, 02:04 PM
wow this crap storm continues most likely until everyone is ruined.
the following quote is the terrible direction of things:

"I need some help. As most of you guys can verify I haven't said a bad word about anyone on this or any other forum but 2 of my competitors don't seem to share my view that such behavior is the accepted way you should treat your competition.

I'm working on collecting material that these two individuals have said about me and my business in public over the past year and would love to get some help. If you've seen anything where these 2 guys have used my name and said anything that is remotely derogatory I would love to get a link to the thread. I'm sure I'm missing stuff. If you need to know who I'm talking about please pm me.

To be honest I have enough right now to go visit with my attorney but I want as strong a case as possible before I put the hammer down.

I'm an open source kind of guy so feel free to link to stuff right here if you want. Otherwise just send me a pm. I really appreciate all the support and communication you guys have provided me up to now. Time to charge for unfair business practices. "

if feelings or businesses were hurt before this can only further batter the situation. it is not "live and let live" btw it has always been "live and let die" especially in business.


LOL :D

Josh
08-07-2011, 03:12 PM
Mark has a great opportunity to leverage his collaboration and influence the Damascus market here - but it's up to the other makers to define how much they let Mark get away with.

He's intentionally or unintentionally impacting the other business he has - and he's created a dangerously fluid environment for himself.

By coming in with a $400 price point, he's limited the profit he and his suppliers can make on similar but not Damascus knives in the future, and created a ceiling for all the knives he sells including (not limited to) those from Butch, Raider, Carter & Devin. Did he just push his semi-custom makers and big suppliers of $300+ retail non-Damascus knives away? Does he think his knives can compete with all other manufacturers? Apparently he does! Can he? Only time will tell. I don't think people will stop wanting these big name knives.

I'd love to hear a review on the richM$ond. It would be a good indicator of what's coming. Apparently I can't type that word in now... not a good sign for this Forum.

It might very well be a bad move, considering folks like Takeda and Misono have recently raised prices - and I'd expect similarly marketed products to have a desire to follow suit. How long it takes for him to figure out if it was a bad move is up to his suppliers and competition and how and when they react.

The longer the wait, the more success and less risk Mark will have. He's positioned himself well - like it or not. This will be very interesting to watch, and I'm glad this product was pointed out. Someone might see this as an opportunity to pick up Mark's suppliers one by one and compete with his site.

PS - I'm not cancelling any of my custom orders thanks very much. I'm aware of the difference in quality, I'm willing to pay for quality.

mr drinky
08-07-2011, 03:23 PM
I mean no disrespect to those who have contributed, but I think this thread blows. I'd rather catch and STD than read about these issues again. Sorry, just had to vent.

k.

jmforge
08-07-2011, 03:45 PM
an STD.

k. Is that the kitchen store chain that has the Zwilling-Kramer knives?:biggrin:

JMJones
08-07-2011, 05:22 PM
In business, I do not spend time, energy or resources trying to shine a negative light on my competitors that could be used to shine a positive light on my business.

NO ChoP!
08-07-2011, 05:37 PM
I mean no disrespect to those who have contributed, but I think this thread blows. I'd rather catch and STD than read about these issues again. Sorry, just had to vent.

k.

Can you say, giant Q-Tip???? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

UglyJoe
08-07-2011, 07:01 PM
I broke my rule and posted on his subforum in ITK to inform him of the burden of proof for libel, and the difference between someone knowingly lying in written form about his business to do him harm (libel) and someone posting an opinion on his products, practices, and customer service that may be disparaging and might cause his business harm but aren't lies (free speech). I also advised him his time would be better spent improving his products and services than pursuing useless litigation, and that said litigation would only hurt his public image more than help it. Apparently this is not what he wanted to hear, because my comments were deleted immediately.

Dave Martell
08-07-2011, 07:10 PM
He practically owns that place right down to the moderator. In my opinion, you either play ball with him or you don't exist there.

jmforge
08-07-2011, 07:14 PM
He practically owns that place right down to the moderator. You either play ball with him or you don't exist there.Sounds like another forum that specializes in things tacticool that I know of. Talk bad about any of their padrones anywhere else and they will ban you from even registering.

UglyJoe
08-07-2011, 07:16 PM
To be fair this was in his subforum, where I think he has moderating privileges, so I don't think it required anyone else other than himself to remove my comment. Oh, and a certain fellow from South Africa was commenting on there as well (/UglyJoe pukes in his own mouth). That dude is gunning for you Dave and a little scary. You might want to make sure the servers on this site as well as your personal computers are firewalled up to the max.

Dave Martell
08-07-2011, 07:21 PM
To be fair this was in his subforum, where I think he has moderating privileges, so I don't think it required anyone else other than himself to remove my comment. Oh, and a certain fellow from South Africa was commenting on there as well (/UglyJoe pukes in his own mouth). That dude is gunning for you Dave and a little scary. You might want to make sure the servers on this site as well as your personal computers are firewalled up to the max.

Unless they changed the vendor permissions since I've been gone vendors don't have the ability to moderate posts in their own sub-forums.

MadRookie isn't worth commenting on.

Adagimp
08-07-2011, 07:40 PM
/facepalm

This thread should have been deleted as soon as it was posted, better yet, it should never have been posted in the first place. It should be apparent by now that these sorts of threads will just turn into flame fests and that the information provided in the thread will likely be so biased that it would be worthless to the typical forum reader/poster.

UglyJoe
08-07-2011, 07:51 PM
I don't understand why? The original topic of this thread was if the projected pricepoint of this knife would hurt the sales of many custom makers. This seems like a legitimate topic to me. It's normal business for one supplier try to undercut the prices of other suppliers; the point of discussion is at what cost? Your big restaurant chains (Applebees, TGIF, etc.) have priced out smaller and higher-quality-but-more-expensive competitors for years. Particularly on these forums, which in large part are composed of contributions from smaller makers, should we not be allowed to discuss the ramifications of a product that could potentially be seen as a serious threat to their business? The original run on this knife is predicted to be around 70. How long would it take Fowler or Burke or Dave or Marko to make 70 knives? What kind of impact would this being on the market have on their future sales? This seems like good discourse to me, and if it ends up getting a little mudslingy, well that's to be expected. We are all adults and should be past the point of having our feelings hurt because someone has something not so nice to say about someone else ON THE INTERNET.

apicius9
08-07-2011, 07:56 PM
<Sigh>, haven't we been through all this before without any real result except a lot of disappointment and bad blood? I understand that there is a lot of history behind the dynamics here, and many of us have opinions, but by repeating them over and over again, not much will change. What seems difficult is to separate the comments about the products from those about the vendor(s). I really like the forum here as a place to openly discuss products, and the fact that - as long as it isn't a Fiery knife - most people here try to be critical but not slanderous. I don't see why we have to discuss the perceived personality issues of people here (allthough I would chime in about Bobby Flay...). Several cyber or real friendships have been broken over this, and several people here will never be friends with some others, but we don't gain much by discussing that here.

IMHO, MR made an attempt to conquer the market and that is his right as a business man in a capitalist society. I understand that the way this happened and the strategies have offended and harmed people, but morality and consideration are not the strengths of capitalism. It's everybody's right to be anywhere between disappointed and furious about this and to consider it in their buying decisions, but I don't think we have a right to tell anybody how to conduct his business. From everything I see, the majority of his customers is happy. Overall, MR is much less a threat to society than the people who sell us sugar-laden yoghurt as a health product. Knife stuff is closer to hour hearts than yoghurt, but we also don't criticise the people who make Furi knives - we citicise the knives; we don't get outraged about the CEO of Cutco, we criticize (or ridicule) the knives.

This forum started out as such a great place, and after a few intial venting threads I had hoped that this topic was behind us. If I could wish for something, it would be that whenever that topic startds kindling up, we hold back a bit with throwing wood, oil, or - in some cases - jet fuel at it...

Stefan

Adagimp
08-07-2011, 08:00 PM
I don't understand why? The original topic of this thread was if the projected pricepoint of this knife would hurt the sales of many custom makers. This seems like a legitimate topic to me. It's normal business for one supplier try to undercut the prices of other suppliers; the point of discussion is at what cost? Your big restaurant chains (Applebees, TGIF, etc.) have priced out smaller and higher-quality-but-more-expensive competitors for years. Particularly on these forums, which in large part are composed of contributions from smaller makers, should we not be allowed to discuss the ramifications of a product that could potentially be seen as a serious threat to their business? The original run on this knife is predicted to be around 70. How long would it take Fowler or Burke or Dave or Marko to make 70 knives? What kind of impact would this being on the market have on their future sales? This seems like good discourse to me, and if it ends up getting a little mudslingy, well that's to be expected. We are all adults and should be past the point of having our feelings hurt because someone has something not so nice to say about someone else ON THE INTERNET.

It might have been a legitimate topic for a vendor only or business forum, but that's not where it was posted. It was posted where it would stir up the most controversy.

Also, we might all be adults, but we don't all act like them. This might be just "THE INTERNET", but childish behavior seems just as annoying here as it does in the real world.

Marko Tsourkan
08-07-2011, 08:01 PM
I don't understand why? The original topic of this thread was if the projected pricepoint of this knife would hurt the sales of many custom makers. This seems like a legitimate topic to me. It's normal business for one supplier try to undercut the prices of other suppliers; the point of discussion is at what cost? Your big restaurant chains (Applebees, TGIF, etc.) have priced out smaller and higher-quality-but-more-expensive competitors for years. Particularly on these forums, which in large part are composed of contributions from smaller makers, should we not be allowed to discuss the ramifications of a product that could potentially be seen as a serious threat to their business? The original run on this knife is predicted to be around 70. How long would it take Fowler or Burke or Dave or Marko to make 70 knives? What kind of impact would this being on the market have on their future sales? This seems like good discourse to me, and if it ends up getting a little mudslingy, well that's to be expected. We are all adults and should be past the point of having our feelings hurt because someone has something not so nice to say about someone else ON THE INTERNET.

That really is all it has been about and unfortunately, what started as a voiced oppinion/concern on a public forum, grew into a heated discussion, a threat of litigation and gleeful assertion that somebody might have been tapping your computer for incriminating evidence. Kind of exhausting, to say the least. Not worth the time and effort. If I knew it will be like this, I would have never responded, even though my oppinion on the subject has been consistent.

M

Adagimp
08-07-2011, 08:06 PM
This forum started out as such a great place, and after a few intial venting threads I had hoped that this topic was behind us. If I could wish for something, it would be that whenever that topic startds kindling up, we hold back a bit with throwing wood, oil, or - in some cases - jet fuel at it...

Stefan

Well said Stefan. We should by all means criticize a product for its defects, but we ought to be far more careful about throwing out defamatory remarks with regard to the character of the person/people behind the product.

sudsy9977
08-07-2011, 08:13 PM
man this stuff moves quick...last time i saw this thread it was half as big.......i usually keep my opinoins to myself...partly because i can't type out my thoughts clearly enough.....stefan made some really good points......i think in the future if i see threads like this i might just move them or delete them.....i think stuff like this leads to more harm than good.....but everyone on the forum is free to express their opinion, good or bad, within reason....as long as people aren't attacking each other.....ryan

UglyJoe
08-07-2011, 08:18 PM
I suppose. I still think the topic of interest here is important. Personally, I am finding the influx of knives in this $200-$400 price range to be interesting and wonder what will happen to the market. This includes the SLT Kramer, MR's knives, the ITK, and other knives in this price range. Personally I think it will work itself out. The market for expensive kitchen knives is small - most people still go for the $100 19 knife block from WallyWorld. There are a smaller amount of people willing to spend a bit more for a nice set of knives for their home, but the large majority of those aren't looking to spend anything above $100 a knife. Then there are an even smaller amount of people willing to spend a lot of money on a given knife. Many of those aren't really users and just like having "the best" in their kitchen. This group is looking at names - probably Kramer, the SLT or Shun versions if they can't afford the real thing. Finally there is a tiny group that really are into knives. Some of them can afford the customs. Some would love to be able to afford them but can't (me). Most of the former aren't going to go for something like this knife because it's not a true custom. Most of the latter aren't going to be interested in this knife because it's still very expensive and unless the knife performs much better than most of the early reviews on the Addict, it won't really compete with a lot of knives at it's pricepoint. Personally I really am not sure that this knife will have much of an effect on the custom market, but we shall see, I suppose.

so_sleepy
08-07-2011, 08:28 PM
Add a "flame bait" subforum. move all such posts there and delete after 72hrs or some such time limit.

NO ChoP!
08-07-2011, 11:58 PM
Your big restaurant chains (Applebees, TGIF, etc.) have priced out smaller and higher-quality-but-more-expensive competitors for years. Particularly on these forums, which in large part are composed of contributions from smaller makers, should we not be allowed to discuss the ramifications of a product that could potentially be seen as a serious threat to their business?


Well, I am a restaurateur and am in no way threatened by the likes of Applebees or TGIF; that comparison is equivalent to apples and baseballs to me.

And this is why I really don't understand people feeling threatened by the Addict or Remedy. If Applebee's is the Addict, than a DT ITK is a high end steak joint, and a full custom should be the equivalent to a top Michelin rated restaurant, right? I'm pretty sure Charlie Trotter could give two craps about Applebee's!!!!

SpikeC
08-08-2011, 12:11 AM
Why do those who are bothered by this thread keep posting to it?

UglyJoe
08-08-2011, 12:15 AM
Well, I am a restaurateur and am in no way threatened by the likes of Applebees or TGIF; that comparison is equivalent to apples and baseballs to me.

And this is why I really don't understand people feeling threatened by the Addict or Remedy. If Applebee's is the Addict, than a DT ITK is a high end steak joint, and a full custom should be the equivalent to a top Michelin rated restaurant, right? I'm pretty sure Charlie Trotter could give two craps about Applebee's!!!!

You might not be. I know a lot of people round my home who had to shut down cuz they couldn't compete. You wan't a better comparison? Our only local butcher shut down this past year and started working for Kroger. He couldn't compete with the supermarket's either. And his shop was SOOO much better. Still very bitter about this.

jmforge
08-08-2011, 12:52 AM
Was the name of He Who Shall Not Be Named removed from the tag line becuase of legal concerns or for unintentional violation of the no advertsing rule?:wink:

NO ChoP!
08-08-2011, 12:56 AM
befuddled goons
:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::n ono:

I think you got yourself twisted in Spikes panties....:laughat:

:gun1:

Vertigo
08-08-2011, 12:59 AM
:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::n ono:

I think you got yourself twisted in Spikes panties....:laughat:

:gun1:
Lol.... ugh... whut?

steeley
08-08-2011, 01:31 AM
In response to outsourcing knife's
I have acquired some steel from the fine people at TANKA and have it
to Hasbro for the shaping and Schwinn for the handle work.
i made one demo for the pass around thou shipping will be costly
and in keeping the price down to $10 to $12 range.http://www.limepic.com/img/v3tonkamighty300x225.jpghttp://www.limepic.com/img/knife.jpg

goodchef1
08-08-2011, 01:31 AM
Why do those who are bothered by this thread keep posting to it?

because there is no rant n rave section. I think something like that would be good for people to vent, then a member who is a psychologist could moderate unresolved childhood issues. I.. I mean people could really use something like that

steeley
08-08-2011, 01:38 AM
Just to show the how absurd that thing's are getting.
people get so full of them self in forums:disdain:
and the handles will in #2 and #4 black rubber .:biggrin:

Chef Niloc
08-08-2011, 01:50 AM
Wow looks like I missed out on this one...dam

Just want to add:

Every time I read something that mad ricrockyedey guy rights I get a dirty feeling...it's worse then the watching your little sister change her underwear kind of feeling. that guys got to have some heads in a duffel bag or something...maybe he's into blood diamonds?? He's from SA right?? He may just be the cape town killer?

Dave you got to fill me in on this guy, whats his story???

As for the knife in the subject of this thread hers my take.
It's still being made by lamson, right?? So no name or steel can make it into anything more then a lamson knife. There factory has been turning out some of the worst knives for as long as I can remember. I love old knives and can say that I have some nice old dexters...never seen a lamson worth using?? If I were Mark or Hoss I would try and get cutco to make some knives for them. Not kidding cutco IMO makes the best factory knives in the US, better then Dexter or Lamson. And if I'm not mistaken they hold the ginus book for sharpest kitchen knife???

Dave Martell
08-08-2011, 02:40 AM
I'm not getting why people get so upset to hear that someone doesn't like something or that they don't like the person that made it or brought it to market. Sure I get that it would be all peachy if we never said a negative word but is that realistic?

For myself I have a hard time separating product from person and although wish I could because it would help to avoid troubling times and discourse but I don't see the need to censor other's opinions here who elect to not separate product from person. If a person puts themselves out in the public and asks for the public's money then they deserve the scrutiny of the public be it for their product, personality, or business practices. Hell I own this forum, I do business here, and I would NEVER censor someone's comments on me or my products or services or whatever so long as the comments didn't contain profanity or personal family type attacks. In fact many people have voiced their concerns about my involvement in these types of issues and I have done nothing to make the posts or people disappear.

As for Mark being upset about bad press, well, he's smart enough to realize that there's no such thing as bad press when you're selling, I'm sure that he'll get over it and if not - oh well.

SpikeC
08-08-2011, 01:16 PM
:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::n ono:

I think you got yourself twisted in Spikes panties....:laughat:

:gun1:

Seems you are the panty queen.

WildBoar
08-08-2011, 01:18 PM
Wow, I really missed the fireworks over the weekend.

To me, the Lamson dammy knife isn't a whole lot different then the Damasteel knife Pierre made. The Lamson knife is really cool steel, with questionable heat treat, grind, handle etc., while Pierre's was a great custom knife with a kinda cartoonish dammy steel. In the $400-500 price range, I would go with a Damasteel from Pierre, as the handle would be superb, the blade geometery would be first-class and the finish work would be among the best out there.

When I first saw the Damasteel knife from Pierre on the forum, I thought it might steal work from the damascus makers. But when I acutally had it in front of me, I realized there is a reason that steel is a bit less expensive then real damascus. It is just not comparible. And the fact that I had Del's pass-around in my hand when the Damasteel knife came in only served to highlight the differences.

To the potential buyers who have not had the opportunity to handle knives from some of the custom makers the Lamson knife may represent the top of the knife food chain (i.e., they were looking for a Shun, but at $250 more this knife must really be the most awesome thing ever made). But I'm sure if they decide to look more into DT damascus/ knives, etc. they will soon realize that knife just is not the same thing. Heck, I've seen damascus gyutos in the same price range a JCK.

Devin is a steel maker, and I think it's great that more people will be exposed to his work. Some of the buyers of the Lamson knife will educate themselves, and one day but one (or more) of Devin's customs. Or maybe one of Del's, or one of the other custom makers.

As far as the 'profit margin' people mention when discussing the knife purveyor in question, please keep in mind most of the 'profit' is actually his salary, covers health insurance, pays payroll taxes, etc. It seems it is viewed that every penny over his costs is just 'profit'. If he earns $100k/ yr in salary and true profit, is that really excessive for a guy who went out on such a limb to build a niche business?

AFKitchenknivesguy
08-08-2011, 11:10 PM
Finally! Now I know what went down. I am in no way offended by any of this, but then again I am used to conflict. I do think it's amusing how people keep repeating past bad blood, and even more amusing how people so against this thread keep posting. Ahhh forums, entertainment!

Salty dog
08-09-2011, 12:33 AM
LOL :D

Don't laugh too loud. There are no anti-SLAPP laws in Wisconsin. Google it.

Dave Martell
08-09-2011, 12:51 AM
I fear nothing and nobody. When you've got nothing to lose it's not hard to feel this way.

mhlee
08-09-2011, 02:06 PM
Don't laugh too loud. There are no anti-SLAPP laws in Wisconsin. Google it.

Damn.

Justin0505
08-11-2011, 05:19 PM
To get back on the topic of "will this compete / hurt sales from custom makers?"
I really got a good chuckle out of that one. I think that a few people have already touched on analogies along the lines of "does another TGIF hurt the bookings at The French Laundry?" or "Does ford releasing yet another "special" edition mustang really impact the development of the Hennesy Venom GT?"

Some may agrue that this knife is closer competition (at least in price) to the up coming knives from Marko and Dave, but I don't really think that that's the case either. People that are going to buy knives from Marko and Dave (like most of us here) are going to do so "irreguardless"/reguarless of what Mark is producing. What Mark is making is a different knife for a differnent customer base. Although, some of us may span those customer bases and end up with lots of differnt knives from lots of different producers.

Personally, I'm excited that we are entering a new golden age in the American knife industry/market. I think that this is part of a national trend among consumers to start to see smaller quantities of high quality durrable goods as being a better value than large piles of low quality, disposable crap.
This has also been going on with food and consumables. Example: the American craft beer industry.
I see Mark as becoming the Sam Adams of American kitchen knife micro-producers. Is he ever going to top more than a fraction of a percent of production of the "InBev's" of the global knife industry? Hell no.
However, is he also much of a threat/ going to "steal" customers away from the Surley's and DogFish Heads. LOL, are you kidding?.

If anything, I see the effect(be it unintended) of what Mark is doing as growing the market, creating more high-end customers and business for everyone, especially thoes on higher/ more boutique levels than him. How many peope do you think stumble across his site looking for a better deal on the Wusty, Henk, or Shun that they saw at SLT or WS (because as far as they know, thoes are the "best available") and then they get a glimps of what's REALLY out there? I think of a lot of what Mark sells/ produces as being "gateway knifes" that lead to the "hard stuff".

I think that this is such an immature (not just in terms of forum posts) market that there's room for everyone with skill, knowledge and a good reputation to do very well. Thoes close-minded, short-sighted fools that squander their time, energy, and reputation bashing others and pissing/shitting in their own pool are ultimately just going go be left behind to wallow in their own elite filth.
That said, I want to again make it clear that there's a very real difference between objective, fact-based(and sited) criticism and bashing something/someone because of a grudge/bad feeling and then trying to justify it/disguise an opinion as fact.

StephanFowler
08-11-2011, 06:31 PM
If anything, I see the effect(be it unintended) of what Mark is doing as growing the market, creating more high-end customers and business for everyone, especially thoes on higher/ more boutique levels than him. How many peope do you think stumble across his site looking for a better deal on the Wusty, Henk, or Shun that they saw at SLT or WS (because as far as they know, thoes are the "best available") and then they get a glimps of what's REALLY out there? I think of a lot of what Mark sells/ produces as being "gateway knifes" that lead to the "hard stuff".



My thoughts exactly

I am good friends with several Master Smiths and occasionally ask if they mind me copying something from one of their designs. I've never been told not to.

when it comes down to it even if I could copy a Larry Fuegen carved guard EXACTLY the people who want that style are still going to go to Larry long before me....(just as an example off the top of my head)