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Salty dog
08-08-2011, 12:20 PM
I'm doing the whole shabang on a KS gyuto. Here are two preliminary shots.

Honyaki left, KS right

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a442/Saltys_knives/IMG_5298.jpg

After polishing

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a442/Saltys_knives/IMG_5302.jpg

More to come

joex175
08-08-2011, 12:33 PM
I have been looking at this knife on and off for a while , cant wait to hear what you have to say about it salty

Iceman91
08-08-2011, 12:34 PM
Really looking forward to this. I have been looking at the KS for a while, seems like a great value.

Aphex
08-08-2011, 12:40 PM
This should be an interesting one. The only person i know of that has both knives actually prefered the KS.

I personally doubt the honyaki is worth the extra $800 or so, even if it is the better knife.

Salty dog
08-08-2011, 12:44 PM
After polishing it they sure look alike minus the hamon. The KS is lighter and a tad smaller. (163g vs 177)

tk59
08-08-2011, 12:49 PM
Looking forward to the review!

riverie
08-08-2011, 12:58 PM
Can't wait to see the result and your opinion Salty..... I'm about to pulled a trigger on one of those, this is a prefect time.......

mpukas
08-08-2011, 12:59 PM
Looking forward to the review!

+1!!!

Seems to me the main advantage to a honyaki over a solid steel blade such as the KS is the hardness. Honyaki's, in gerenel, to me, seem to be on the thicker side and that can give the opportunity for wider bevels and greater convexivity (there's a new word, lol!); but single steel lasers have their advantages too.

This should be good!!!

UglyJoe
08-08-2011, 01:07 PM
Yay! Love this idea. Also hoping somewhere down the line we might see the Mizuno Akitada Hontanren blue 2 wa guyto vs your suminigashi Miz gyuto vs. your honyaki Miz gyutos.... (crosses fingers).

NO ChoP!
08-09-2011, 01:08 AM
The KS appears to be a hair shorter and a fraction of a hair thinner at the spine in the first pic; can't wait to see some profile comparisons.

Salty dog
08-09-2011, 01:11 AM
Very suji like.

Dave Martell
08-09-2011, 01:21 AM
Scott is this the KS gyuto that you're showing? The one with the different tip grind?


Whole blade is made of White Steel #2. Double Bevel Edge 50/50. Blade tip part has narrower shape than regular Wa Gyuto , this shape of Wa Gyuto are common in Eastern area (around the Tokyo area) and popular among Japanese food chefs.

http://japanesechefsknife.com/KSSeriesHonKasumiGyokuhakukou.html

Marko Tsourkan
08-09-2011, 01:28 AM
http://japanesechefsknife.com/images/Img938.jpg

I think it is this one. I was wondering about why it was so thin. That it is made of solid steel explains it.

M

Vertigo
08-09-2011, 01:40 AM
This thread gets me so hot. Stop with the porn, people.

Marko Tsourkan
08-09-2011, 01:47 AM
I think this one has more curve toward the tip. Still like the profile a lot.

wenus2
08-09-2011, 03:44 AM
Still like the profile a lot.
:plus1:

Salty dog
08-09-2011, 07:42 AM
Yep, that's it. (But you knew that)

Dave Martell
08-09-2011, 09:44 AM
I wasn't 100% sure and I also didn't know that they made a gyuto with this different shape and not clad. If it's been out for awhile then I somehow missed it.

Vertigo
08-09-2011, 11:34 AM
If it's been out for awhile then I somehow missed it.

Lolz. You sharpened mine.

aaronsgibson
08-09-2011, 12:17 PM
Cool Salty can't wait to see the results. Wonder if there would be much difference between one of those and a Kono? Think that would be interesting to see.

UglyJoe
08-09-2011, 12:48 PM
I wasn't 100% sure and I also didn't know that they made a gyuto with this different shape and not clad. If it's been out for awhile then I somehow missed it.

Yeah, this is the gyuto that people are talking about when they say Masamoto KS gyuto. I know that Masamoto makes a clad gyuto, but I have never seen one. Not a single pic from a forum member that I have ever seen. I thought it was the white rhino.

You must have seen them before though Dave, as obviously when someone says Masamoto wa gyuto you think clad. Interesting.

Timthebeaver
08-09-2011, 12:56 PM
Discussion of the mysterious clad Masamoto. From FF

Look at the Masamoto catalog carefully, and note the difference in price between sanmai and non-sanmai within a given style and line. You'll notice that sanmai costs a LOT more than non-sanmai. For example, the KS-3127 wa-gyuto (my beloved gyuto!) lists for 29,820, but the KS-2927, described exactly the same except for the phrase "three-sheet forged," i.e. sanmai, lists for 58,380. Masamoto most certainly charges a premium for being Masamoto, but I have never heard it suggested that you don't get what you pay for -- and they're charging double. That's not a game or a ripoff. And while I don't surf the American e-tailers of these knives much, I have not seen this KS-29XX gyuto series for sale in them, and suspect that the market is exclusively Japanese -- and unquestionably professional.

You don't like sanmai, many others we like to chat with don't like them, I haven't used them anything like enough to have an opinion, but it appears that there are folks with very high standards and serious professional skills who prefer them and will pay big bucks for them. Why, I honestly don't know, but I do think that the blanket dismissal is somewhat inaccurate.

For those who read Japanese, which I fake from Chinese, here is the text:

KS-31XX: 水牛柄牛刀
[I read this "water buffalo horn handled gyuto"]
KS-3124 (240mm): 26,880
KS-3127 (270mm): 29,820
KS-3130 (300mm): 33,810
KS-3133 (330mm): 41,790

KS-29XX: 水牛柄三枚打牛刀
[ I read this "water buffalo horn handled three-sheet struck gyuto"]
KS-2924 (240mm): 54,390
KS-2927 (270mm): 58,380
KS-2930 (300mm): 64,470

Dave Martell
08-09-2011, 12:58 PM
If it's been out for awhile then I somehow missed it.


Lolz. You sharpened mine.


Well that's embarrassing. :D

Vertigo
08-09-2011, 02:39 PM
After a while all bitches look the same, eh Dave? ;)

Dave Martell
08-09-2011, 02:53 PM
After a while all bitches look the same, eh Dave? ;)


LOL :D

UglyJoe
08-09-2011, 03:33 PM
Discussion of the mysterious clad Masamoto. From FF

Look at the Masamoto catalog carefully, and note the difference in price between sanmai and non-sanmai within a given style and line. You'll notice that sanmai costs a LOT more than non-sanmai. For example, the KS-3127 wa-gyuto (my beloved gyuto!) lists for 29,820, but the KS-2927, described exactly the same except for the phrase "three-sheet forged," i.e. sanmai, lists for 58,380. Masamoto most certainly charges a premium for being Masamoto, but I have never heard it suggested that you don't get what you pay for -- and they're charging double. That's not a game or a ripoff. And while I don't surf the American e-tailers of these knives much, I have not seen this KS-29XX gyuto series for sale in them, and suspect that the market is exclusively Japanese -- and unquestionably professional.

You don't like sanmai, many others we like to chat with don't like them, I haven't used them anything like enough to have an opinion, but it appears that there are folks with very high standards and serious professional skills who prefer them and will pay big bucks for them. Why, I honestly don't know, but I do think that the blanket dismissal is somewhat inaccurate.

For those who read Japanese, which I fake from Chinese, here is the text:

KS-31XX: 水牛柄牛刀
[I read this "water buffalo horn handled gyuto"]
KS-3124 (240mm): 26,880
KS-3127 (270mm): 29,820
KS-3130 (300mm): 33,810
KS-3133 (330mm): 41,790

KS-29XX: 水牛柄三枚打牛刀
[ I read this "water buffalo horn handled three-sheet struck gyuto"]
KS-2924 (240mm): 54,390
KS-2927 (270mm): 58,380
KS-2930 (300mm): 64,470

Like I said, white rhino. I'd love to see a pic of one, see if the profile and everthing else is the same. I also assume that you could probably get a suminigashi version, though it might be more expensive than the honyaki, if Masamoto follows Mizuno's pricing scheme.

Marko Tsourkan
08-09-2011, 03:42 PM
My guess is a san-mai Masamoto gyoto is done in a traditional (forging) way, while a solid steel is likely made from sheet steel, hence the price difference. Solid steel knives can also be ground thinner, though I have seen very thin san-mai construction knives.

M

UglyJoe
08-09-2011, 09:23 PM
Yeah, that's definitely why there is a price difference. I just wonder if there is a difference in profile and geometry.

Marko Tsourkan
08-09-2011, 10:54 PM
Yeah, that's definitely why there is a price difference. I just wonder if there is a difference in profile and geometry.

Monosteel is thinner than Masamoto honyaki (whichi is much thinner than san mai gyuto) and has, what it looks like, a little more curve toward the tip. Scott mentioned that it as thin as a suji.

M

tk59
08-09-2011, 11:25 PM
I'm willing to bet the monosteel is thinner only on the heel half of the knife. The tip half of the honyaki is quite thin and esp near the tip.

Marko Tsourkan
08-09-2011, 11:41 PM
Yes, I remember noting how thin the tip was on the honyaki and how thin the knife was overall.

M

jmforge
08-10-2011, 01:04 AM
So in 'Murican money, that means the monosteel 270 mm goes for close to $400 and the San Mai version for over $750 in the home market? Pretty pricey for knives with a broomstick handle and "machine" finish on the blade!!!!!.
Discussion of the mysterious clad Masamoto. From FF

Look at the Masamoto catalog carefully, and note the difference in price between sanmai and non-sanmai within a given style and line. You'll notice that sanmai costs a LOT more than non-sanmai. For example, the KS-3127 wa-gyuto (my beloved gyuto!) lists for 29,820, but the KS-2927, described exactly the same except for the phrase "three-sheet forged," i.e. sanmai, lists for 58,380. Masamoto most certainly charges a premium for being Masamoto, but I have never heard it suggested that you don't get what you pay for -- and they're charging double. That's not a game or a ripoff. And while I don't surf the American e-tailers of these knives much, I have not seen this KS-29XX gyuto series for sale in them, and suspect that the market is exclusively Japanese -- and unquestionably professional.

You don't like sanmai, many others we like to chat with don't like them, I haven't used them anything like enough to have an opinion, but it appears that there are folks with very high standards and serious professional skills who prefer them and will pay big bucks for them. Why, I honestly don't know, but I do think that the blanket dismissal is somewhat inaccurate.

For those who read Japanese, which I fake from Chinese, here is the text:

KS-31XX: 水牛柄牛刀
[I read this "water buffalo horn handled gyuto"]
KS-3124 (240mm): 26,880
KS-3127 (270mm): 29,820
KS-3130 (300mm): 33,810
KS-3133 (330mm): 41,790

KS-29XX: 水牛柄三枚打牛刀
[ I read this "water buffalo horn handled three-sheet struck gyuto"]
KS-2924 (240mm): 54,390
KS-2927 (270mm): 58,380
KS-2930 (300mm): 64,470

Marko Tsourkan
08-10-2011, 01:29 AM
It is often the case that same knives cost more in Japan than outside. Recently, there was a huge hike in Misono prices, it was something like 40+ % or so (don't remember for sure) to equalize the prices in Japan and outside.

JCK is a good store to get an idea what Japanese knives sell in USD

M

JohnnyChance
08-10-2011, 02:00 AM
So in 'Murican money, that means the monosteel 270 mm goes for close to $400 and the San Mai version for over $750 in the home market? Pretty pricey for knives with a broomstick handle and "machine" finish on the blade!!!!!.

Pretty pricey? I guess. It is often considered one of the best performers out there. If you think it is overpriced, then grind one better (or just as good) and sell it for less.

jmforge
08-10-2011, 02:16 AM
Oh, if I manage to grind one that is seen as being that good, I have no intention of leaving money on the table, sir.:biggrin: I am actually very glad to hear that you kitchen knife guys seem to be willing to pay a fair price for what you see as a quality product and actually use the thing. That can been an issue for many of us in the "collector" knife market if you are not already famous and it has almost gotten to a point where there are too many talented people making knives and not enough potential customers for you to get "famous"!!!:(
Pretty pricey? I guess. It is often considered one of the best performers out there. If you think it is overpriced, then grind one better (or just as good) and sell it for less.

goodchef1
08-10-2011, 02:16 AM
So in 'Murican money, that means the monosteel 270 mm goes for close to $400 and the San Mai version for over $750 in the home market? Pretty pricey for knives with a broomstick handle and "machine" finish on the blade!!!!!.

ah oh, just please don't call those who buy/use this knife amateurs :scared4:

jmforge
08-10-2011, 03:00 AM
No sir, right now, I am the amateur in this rodeo.:lol2:
ah oh, just please don't call those who buy/use this knife amateurs :scared4:

JohnnyChance
08-10-2011, 04:45 AM
I am actually very glad to hear that you kitchen knife guys seem to be willing to pay a fair price for what you see as a quality product and actually use the thing.

That is one complaint I have heard from knife makers who make field/hunting/whatever knives. Their customers buy the knives, sure, but then don't ever use them. Just stick em in a drawer and show them to buddies.

But that does mean us kitchen guys are sticklers for performance, so they can't just be pretty!

jmforge
08-10-2011, 04:58 AM
John, the problem in the collector market, especially for forged blades, is that they want it all, looks, fit and finish, performance, premium handle materials, a "free" sheath, but for the guys who aren't at the top of the heap, the prices that you can get for knives has arguably not gone up all that much since the early to mid 90's and the expectations as far as fit and finish are MUCH higher these days. I bought my first custom forged knife from Joe Flournoy at the Guild show in the early 90's. It was a slender 7 inch clip point fighter in 1084 with what appears to be a 600 grit hand rubbed finish, a maple burl handle and ebony buttcap and a plain Kenny Rowe sheath. I think that I paid $375 for it. Thats about what I could get for the same type of knife almost 20 years later and I would have to make it look better because the handle on that knife would be considered kind of clunky and out of proportion by today's standards. There are too many makers who are willing to give away stuff.
That is one complaint I have heard from knife makers who make field/hunting/whatever knives. Their customers buy the knives, sure, but then don't ever use them. Just stick em in a drawer and show them to buddies.

But that does mean us kitchen guys are sticklers for performance, so they can't just be pretty!