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Marko Tsourkan
08-08-2011, 12:14 PM
I have been studying profiles of gyuto and sujihiki and with your feedback I think I got those down. Now, I have questions about petty.

The edge curve on a petty seems to be similar to the edge curve on a gyuto, but (from my own experience) most work with petty is done with a tip area, so I am going to concentrate on it first.

So, how much curve and belly near the tip - note it on Shigefusa petty (or lack of) on a petty would make a good knife? Also, what is an optimal height at the heel? I have seen some suggestions that 40-42mm, but it seems a bit high, no? Please note, thise questions are about petty, not petty chef which is taller.

Here is a profile that I am considering using. I ground it from a petty I made at Devin last November. I think I would make it a bit taller at the heel, but leave the height and shape of the tip area unchanged. For comparison purposes, I placed it next to Shigefusa petty in the same length.

Thank you.

M


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SpikeC
08-08-2011, 12:59 PM
I like that extra meat at the tip of the shiggy.

oivind_dahle
08-08-2011, 01:38 PM
I like it. The Shig is more like a mini Gyuto.
For a mini Gyuto I would like it to be more like a Carter Funyaki :)

tk59
08-08-2011, 02:09 PM
I have three 150 petties. An expensive Heiji, a relatively cheap (thinned) Masahiro and a very thin Ashi. I like the tip on the Ashi the best (quite pointy like yours and my old Konosuke wa-petty). I like the steel and sheer cutting power of the Heiji. BUT the medium weight slightly less pointy Masahiro is the one I tend to use the most out of the three. I'd err on the side of being a little thick than thin but I do like your tip. I guess this isn't very helpful, is it... I guess I'd pick yours over the Shige...

UglyJoe
08-08-2011, 02:10 PM
This one is tough, because a petty (IMO) is a much more individual knife than a gyuto or suji. People tend to have a set definition for what they like to do with a gyuto or suji - that is, for the most part people use a gyuto as a board knife and slicer in a pinch, and a suji as a slicing knife or a board knife in a pinch. I know there are some exceptions, but this is the general rule. As such we can come to agreement on good general profiles for each of these knives. Again, some will like more belly than the next, etc., but we can come to a more or less general consensus.

Petty's on the other hand are a different thing entirely. Some people like them used in hand like a parer. Some like to use them on a board. Some would even use one for slicing small meats like chicken breast. Some like to use them as a boning knife, for breaking down small fowl (chicken, quail, cornish hen, etc.). Personally, I like to use mine as an all-around-on-the-go-knife. That is, when my friends invite me over to cook at their house, I don't grab by gyuto, I grab my petty. It might be more work and less precise, but I can get the job done with just the petty, and not feel like I'm hauling around a much more expensive knife. In fact, I have a petty that usually lives in my car for just such an occasion. As such I often use mine on a board to dice onions or other vegetables, break down meats, slice things, etc. Because of this, I prefer your profile over the shig. The flatness gives more contact for the board and allows for easier board work. This makes maybe breaking down a whole chicken a little bit tricker (that bit of curve near the tip would help me at least be more precise with deboning), but I am willing to sacrifice a little bit of difficulty with things like boning and slicing to have that extra board contact. Other's however might use the knife more as a boning knife or for use in hand and prefer the curve. There are no set "rules" for the majority of usage of a petty, and that makes finding the right profile a difficult one.

As I said I personally prefer your profile, but that's just me. Particularly with this knife you might need to be working more individually with your customers to get exactly the kind of profile they have in mind for an individual order. For instance someone who plans to use it in air like a pairing knife might prefer more curve in the profile, as this accommodates the kind of rolling motion you get with your hands while peeling something in the air.

Marko Tsourkan
08-08-2011, 02:17 PM
Very helpful. Thank you guys.

I have never owned a petty that had a little belly near the tip, so I wasn't sure what the function of it was so Joe's explanation has filled that blank.

I have used a couple of petties with pointy tips and found them fairly versatile to use as a parer (knife has to be on a narrow side at the heel) and a board knife. Never debonned a chicken with a petty (use honesuki for that) but this might be my next test.

How about the preferred height and thickness at the tip?

M

Adagimp
08-08-2011, 02:53 PM
I really like that profile for a petty. Maybe just a hair thicker at the tip and just a bit more heel height, but that's just nitpicking.

40-42mm at the heel seems way to high for a petty.

Marko Tsourkan
08-08-2011, 03:10 PM
I was thinking 35mm max but would like to hear what others have to say on this.

UglyJoe
08-08-2011, 03:23 PM
I was thinking 35mm max but would like to hear what others have to say on this.

I agree. Much higher would make it nearly like a small Carter funayuki and relegate it to pretty much board work only. Would completely kill the versatility of the knife when it comes to things like paring or using it as mentioned before to break down small fowl.

Marko Tsourkan
08-08-2011, 03:30 PM
I agree. Much higher would make it nearly like a small Carter funayuki and relegate it to pretty much board work only. Would completely kill the versatility of the knife when it comes to things like paring or using it as mentioned before to break down small fowl.

Sounds like I won't be making too many changes to the existing profile. Thickness I can work out on my own.

M

tk59
08-08-2011, 03:47 PM
Mine are 33, 31 and 28 mm at the heel. Because the edge on yours is not parallel with the tang/handle, you don't need too much height. When you put it to the board, the handle will point slightly upward. If you grip the petty lightly while doing this, as opposed to the fishing pole grip, you really get plenty of clearance.

UglyJoe
08-08-2011, 03:57 PM
Mine are 33, 31 and 28 mm at the heel. Because the edge on yours is not parallel with the tang/handle, you don't need too much height. When you put it to the board, the handle will point slightly upward. If you grip the petty lightly while doing this, as opposed to the fishing pole grip, you really get plenty of clearance.

Yeah, when I use my petty on the board I use the "point" grip. I pinch for my other blades, but with the point grip on the petty I get plenty of board clearance and control.

tk59
08-08-2011, 04:03 PM
Exactly.

Marko Tsourkan
08-08-2011, 04:45 PM
Damn, just realized I misspelled profile. :)

Iceman91
08-08-2011, 10:07 PM
I really like the look of yours, Marko. I tend to lean toward the thinner, pointier tip.

Mike

Lefty
08-10-2011, 03:19 PM
I think you nailed the profile. I personally wouldn't change it. Just scale it up, and down depending on the length.
I'd say about 31mm for a 130 petty, 35mm for a 150, and 39-40mm for a 180.

Marko Tsourkan
08-10-2011, 03:58 PM
I think you nailed the profile. I personally wouldn't change it. Just scale it up, and down depending on the length.
I'd say about 31mm for a 130 petty, 35mm for a 150, and 39-40mm for a 180.

Thanks Lefty -

Salty dog
08-10-2011, 06:36 PM
I know I'm late to the party but....

less hump on the spine toward the tip and bring the tip up a bit.

Marko Tsourkan
08-10-2011, 06:47 PM
I know I'm late to the party but....

less hump on the spine toward the tip and bring the tip up a bit.

Late appearance often steals the show. Thanks Scott. Your opinion is always welcome.

M

Iceman91
08-10-2011, 09:58 PM
I think Salty makes a good point

Mike

Marko Tsourkan
08-10-2011, 11:23 PM
I think Salty makes a good point

Mike

I made the adjustment.

Marko Tsourkan
08-15-2011, 10:02 AM
So this is a new profile (I think it is still a work in progress) and would like to hear your opinion. Still working on geometry. Believe it or not, I find it harder to grind smaller knives like petty and less tall knives like suji than a gyuto.

1467

jm2hill
08-15-2011, 10:20 AM
As everyone else said Petty's come with personal preference, mine being biased towards the mini gyuto shape. So take the things I say in mind to that.

Two things:

I feel like the spine tapers to roundly to the tip, When I look for a tip of a petty I try and find symmetry in the spine and edge tapering to the tip. it may just be angle of the photo but it seems like the spine and edge approach at different angles.
This may purely be a cosmetic thing on my part I'm not if the approach angle really would matter if you are getting the amount of belly you want.

Second thing:
I love the heel design, it flows so nicely, its like finger-slot design (I'm sure there is a name for that, that I'm not recalling).

All in all, a good looking knife.

Iceman91
08-15-2011, 03:49 PM
Looking good, how tall is it at the heel?

Marko Tsourkan
08-15-2011, 04:36 PM
Looking good, how tall is it at the heel?

it's about 35mm. I raised the heel without raising a nose, hence a new profile in works. My wife gets to keep this one and I get to sharpen 52100 over VG10.

M

tk59
08-15-2011, 05:33 PM
I think it might be too flat. I'd put a little more curve toward the tip. Not much though. It could be the picture, too. Hard to tell. I wouldn't want it completely flat is all.

Lefty
08-17-2011, 12:12 AM
Personal preference, indeed. I like the first one....

Marko Tsourkan
08-17-2011, 12:53 AM
Actually, I corrected a profile. Will post pics when heat treat and grind it.

M

Marko Tsourkan
08-23-2011, 05:37 PM
This is a new petty profile.

This time I decided to try something different - a petty that is mighty on the spine, but relatively thin at the edge and the middle.
The resulting petty has zero flex along the spine, has some weight to it, and could definitely take some abuse.

Moreover, this knife has experimental heat treatment that is to maximize edge retention. Based on the indicators how difficult it was to grind and finish, the experiment might have been a success, but I won't know it until I do a rope cutting test. More to follow.

52100. 165mm on the edge (180mm tip to machi), 2.7mm at the machi, 0.7mm - 1cm from the tip. 79g w/out a handle. Shallow convex grind. Next to Shigefusa petty to compare profile, fit and finish.


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UglyJoe
08-23-2011, 06:38 PM
I like it!

SpikeC
08-23-2011, 08:23 PM
I think that that is a very nice, graceful form. I could see stealing this!

Dave Martell
08-23-2011, 10:00 PM
I like it too, very nice.

Ratton
08-24-2011, 09:13 PM
This is a new petty profile.



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Hi Marko,

I personally do not like the back of the blade. It looks like it is curving back toward your fingers and I have many a petty bite me right there when I was picking them up, or changing hands. I feel the back edge of the blade should be rounded toward the tip to protect your fingers from it's bite!

Your design may look cool, but I don't think it is beneficial to nipped fingers. The rest of it looks good! :my2cents:

Marko Tsourkan
08-24-2011, 09:32 PM
Hi Marko,

I personally do not like the back of the blade. It looks like it is curving back toward your fingers and I have many a petty bite me right there when I was picking them up, or changing hands. I feel the back edge of the blade should be rounded toward the tip to protect your fingers from it's bite!

Your design may look cool, but I don't think it is beneficial to nipped fingers. The rest of it looks good! :my2cents:



This was more a result of rounding and smoothing the choil, than an intentional design feature. I am considering rounding heel on short knives (as opposed to tall) because of nipping problem. In fact my wife requested it on all her knives, short and tall.
The rounding would be very minimal - just enough to be effective.

M

tk59
08-24-2011, 10:29 PM
Hi Marko,

I personally do not like the back of the blade. It looks like it is curving back toward your fingers and I have many a petty bite me right there when I was picking them up, or changing hands. I feel the back edge of the blade should be rounded toward the tip to protect your fingers from it's bite!

Your design may look cool, but I don't think it is beneficial to nipped fingers. The rest of it looks good! :my2cents:

Yup. I foolishly designed a similar curve into a custom suji/petty and ended up sending it back for modification losing a few mm. Hopefully, this one proves to be better.

Marko Tsourkan
08-25-2011, 12:07 AM
Yup. I foolishly designed a similar curve into a custom suji/petty and ended up sending it back for modification losing a few mm. Hopefully, this one proves to be better.

Nope, I fixed it. I brought heel down in a straight line and lightly rounded the corner. Did rope cutting test with it, and can attest, no nipping. :)

M

Cipcich
08-25-2011, 06:34 AM
A sturdy petty is a handy knife. I favor short knives, and have a lot of them, but my DT-ITK is the one that gets the most use. It measures 2.5 mm at the heel; comparable to yours. One of its virtues, however, is the steel. While I really like chippy hard stuff, the durability of AEB-L is a virtue for a petty, which tends end up in a pool of juice on the counter while people eat. I'm not sure 52100 is the optimum steel for this application . . .

apicius9
08-25-2011, 07:26 AM
Hadn't looked at this before, very nice evolution of the shape, I like the last one. For some reason, there seems to be more variety in petties than in other knife shapes. I consider the shorter Carter funayuki to be a petty as far as its function and purpose are concerned - and I like the sturdier SFGZ design for it, cuts through tough cheeses and sausages just fine. At the same time, I love my thinned Blazen 120mm petty which is very narrow and perfect for delicate tasks like segmenting citrus fruit (and it's stainless...) or cutting up berries. So, I think what I want to say is that I prefer these two very different shapes and geometries rather then packing it all into one knife. But I am also the guy who likes a bit more belly on his gyutos and petties, so I may not be part of the majority here...

Stefan

jmforge
08-26-2011, 01:03 AM
Is 2.5mm considered thick for a petty?
A sturdy petty is a handy knife. I favor short knives, and have a lot of them, but my DT-ITK is the one that gets the most use. It measures 2.5 mm at the heel; comparable to yours. One of its virtues, however, is the steel. While I really like chippy hard stuff, the durability of AEB-L is a virtue for a petty, which tends end up in a pool of juice on the counter while people eat. I'm not sure 52100 is the optimum steel for this application . . .

Cipcich
08-26-2011, 02:28 AM
Is 2.5mm considered thick for a petty?
Hmm. Maybe not. I have ten knives that could be classified as pettys, ranging from 1.8 mm to 3.6 mm thick at the heel. However, that one measurement, taken alone, is not particularly useful or informative, though there is some correlation with stiffness.

Marko called his knife a "mighty petty", with no flex along the spine, and I was referring to an early DT-ITK petty, which shares that attribute, to suggest that maybe stainless was a good thing in a petty.

oivind_dahle
08-26-2011, 02:59 AM
I like em short and tall, but then its more of a guyto than a petty :)
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1508

On this I like the heel of shigefusa far better .)

tk59
08-27-2011, 01:53 PM
Is 2.5mm considered thick for a petty?

My thickest petty is nearly 4 mm thick at the spine over the heel and it is an excellent performer in most respects. My thinnest one is just under 1.5 mm thick ove the heel and it feels a little wimpy for some things. My go-to petty is almost 2 mm over the heel.

El Pescador
08-27-2011, 02:44 PM
My thickest petty is nearly 4 mm thick at the spine over the heel and it is an excellent performer in most respects. My thinnest one is just under 1.5 mm thick ove the heel and it feels a little wimpy for some things. My go-to petty is almost 2 mm over the heel.


I have to agree.

Marko Tsourkan
08-27-2011, 03:22 PM
I have to say that I find thin knives (or lasers as some call them) as a trend, and trends by definition won't last. If properly ground, a well made mid-thickness knife (3.5-2.5mm at the handle) will cut just as well as a thin knife, will flex less and feel less flimsy in a hand.

This is a direction I am taking with my knives. Not for a lack of skill, mind you, but for the fact that I think a sturdy knife is a better knife.

M

riverie
08-27-2011, 03:31 PM
totally agree with your statement Marko. it's more about how the knife grind behind the edge, geometry, and good profile.

jmforge
08-28-2011, 07:24 AM
I just finished up a Japanese style 155mm blade and it is around 2.3 mm above the heel. It was fully hardened to about 1/2 inch behind the shoulders and straight tapered from the heel forward and it is still fairly stiff.

Marko Tsourkan
08-28-2011, 09:21 AM
I just finished up a Japanese style 155mm blade and it is around 2.3 mm above the heel. It was fully hardened to about 1/2 inch behind the shoulders and straight tapered from the heel forward and it is still fairly stiff.

Stiff is good.