PDA

View Full Version : Konosuke HD vs Stainless



karloevaristo
08-22-2011, 06:58 AM
Been thinking about getting a Konosuke for a loooooong time now... Just wondering, what are the differences between the HD and the stainless version, aside from the hardness and steel?

By semi-stainless, does it still mean that it will react to food? Will it start to rust when left moist, for let's say an hour?

Because it's semi-stainless does it mean it has better edge retention?

What else? What makes it more expensive than the stainless version?

Thanks!

Karlo

shendao
08-22-2011, 07:08 AM
Love my Konosuke HD 240mm Wa-Sujihiki, but havn't used it long enough to comment. Still super sharp after almost 2 weeks of usage.

jgraeff
08-22-2011, 09:13 AM
i have the Kono HD 240mm wa-gyuto and its awesome my most used knife now. Edge retention is hard for me to guess because I'm in a pro kitchen i use it so much, but if i were to compare it to my shun chefs knife id say it holds it edge about 80% better all around. Im in the habit of always wiping my blade right after i use but i haven't had any problems with rusting or reacting to acidic foods. Im in fl and we have tons of humidity the first week i got it i had very minor spots on the edge of rust all i did was touch it up on the finishing stone and it hasn't appeared since i just think the moister in the air was causing it in the saya.

i don't have the kono stainless version but i i were to compare it to my misono ux10 id say that it does take a slightly better edge and edge retention is a bit better but thats mostly because it tends to plateau about 80% and stays that way for a long time.

karloevaristo
08-22-2011, 09:24 AM
i have the Kono HD 240mm wa-gyuto and its awesome my most used knife now. Edge retention is hard for me to guess because I'm in a pro kitchen i use it so much, but if i were to compare it to my shun chefs knife id say it holds it edge about 80% better all around. Im in the habit of always wiping my blade right after i use but i haven't had any problems with rusting or reacting to acidic foods. Im in fl and we have tons of humidity the first week i got it i had very minor spots on the edge of rust all i did was touch it up on the finishing stone and it hasn't appeared since i just think the moister in the air was causing it in the saya.

i don't have the kono stainless version but i i were to compare it to my misono ux10 id say that it does take a slightly better edge and edge retention is a bit better but thats mostly because it tends to plateau about 80% and stays that way for a long time.

has it chipped on you at all?

kalaeb
08-22-2011, 09:44 AM
By semi-stainless, does it still mean that it will react to food? Will it start to rust when left moist, for let's say an hour?
Karlo

Don't! It's that simple, even stainless will rust if left for prolonged periods in a moisture rich environment. Teach those whom might be using your tools to take care of them now and it will never be an issue.

That being said I have never had any issues with the Kono HD rusting, discoloring or any of the above. Mine has not reacted to acidic food at all, but I wipe down after use. The steel seems to be more on the stainless side than the carbon side. It takes a great edge and holds it for a substiantial amount of time. I can't compare it to the kono stainless, but if the kono stainless is anything like any other stainless, vg-10 or the tojiro dp, then the HD is well worth the money.

NO ChoP!
08-22-2011, 09:44 AM
Zero chipping (especially compared to my Takeda and Moritaka). And, it does stain, but not like carbon. It's more like water spots. Edge retention is good, but takes some time to achieve. Honestly, I wouldn't even consider the stainless version, as there are better values, but the carbons seem to be highly touted...

I have the 240mm, and honestly wish I went 270mm, because it seems so small being so light; plus, I think it is on the short side to begin with......

tk59
08-22-2011, 10:39 AM
I did a test a while back with a KonHD, TKC and CN vs lime juice. After several hours, there was no sign of rust, only a darkening of the steel like a darker gray patina.

Benuser
08-22-2011, 08:33 PM
Have you applied your lime juice on the edge as well, and did you notice any degradation?

tk59
08-22-2011, 08:56 PM
Good question. Nope. I can definitely tell the edge stays very keen longer than some carbon steel knives (Hiro AS, Kanemasa, Masamoto white #2) but I can't say I did anything systematic.

phan1
08-22-2011, 10:26 PM
The HD will take a much sharper edge. It's meant to be able to replicate the sharpness that carbon can achieve but without rusting. My blade has turned greyish after months of use.

If you don't know the edge difference between a carbon and stainless steel blade, then it's tough to recommend one or the other.

tk59
08-22-2011, 10:57 PM
...If you don't know the edge difference between a carbon and stainless steel blade, then it's tough to recommend one or the other. Haha. It isn't all that far behind. To lump steels like 13c26/AEB-L in with VG10 is more ridiculous than comparing KonHD to Kon stainless. Probably the biggest difference is going to be the hardness 58 vs 61. The Kon stainless edge will deform and respond longer to steeling. The KonHD will go longer before needing a touch-up but then will require more abrasion to recover performance.

phan1
08-23-2011, 04:35 AM
I think that's a great comparison! HD= 13c27/aebl. and stainless=vg10. to the OP, feel free to ask more questions if this makes any sense. There's a raeson why HD is signifixantly pricier.

Timthebeaver
08-23-2011, 04:52 AM
I think that's a great comparison! HD= 13c27/aebl. and stainless=vg10. to the OP, feel free to ask more questions if this makes any sense. There's a raeson why HD is signifixantly pricier.

If the Konosuke Swedish stainless is similar to the Suisin or Sakai Yusuke knives, it's not inconceivable it could be 19c27 / AEB-L or similar. It's probably more similar to the steels you mention than the HD. The VG-10 comparison is unhelpful.

Citizen Snips
08-23-2011, 09:22 AM
my HD does have some of the discoloration or waterspots mentioned above and i do treat it like a carbon knife. i have not tried to remove it with BKF but i also wouldn't say it is the steel, it just could have been someone using my knife while i wasn't looking and wiped it off with a damp rag. i can only notice it on the backside because the front is the sharpened side.

i cannot chime in on edge retention as much as some because of how much ive thinned mine, but there is no chipping with a small microbevel and it gets as sharp if not sharper as some carbon knives ive used.

jgraeff
08-23-2011, 10:59 AM
I have also had no chipping what so ever. However my shun that has vg10 chips all the time even with the micro bevel. I am seriously not going to ever buy vg10 steel again i hate the edge retention and seems to be harder to sharpen overall. Compared to the swedish stainless that misono uses there is no comparison there, and the HD steel is even better in my opinion. It does get discoloration after some use looks like water spots not really a patina as others have mentioned.

to give you a better idea of edge retention and keep in mind I'm not a pro sharpener so if your really good at sharpening it could be significantly better. But i normally go to work and i will make about 20-30lbs mirepoix, slice and dice about 5-10 onions each for the line, about 5 tomatoes, lots of cucumbers, 10 red bell peppers, 20lbs of mushrooms, i use it to break down tenderloins and top round of veal considering its so thin it works really well, i also slice limes, oranges, i use it on cheese throughout service, thats the norm on a regular day for prep, i can go about 2 days where is it super sharp, after that it tends to plateau and will stay about 75-80% sharpness which is still sharper than my shun lol but it is still easy to use on just about anything for about 4-5 more days for me, at that point i could either strop it or touch it up on my finishing stone and it will be back to about 80-90%, you can keep touching it up periodically or just resharpen it when you feel the need i have had it for about 3 months and have only resharpened it twice i love that knife.

hope this helps

tk59
08-23-2011, 11:05 AM
I'm not sure my point came across the way I wanted it to. Stainless like that used by Konosuke is more like carbon steel than it is to some other stainless steels like VG10. It sharpens to a very keen edge, very easily. It is, however, on the soft side.

Cadillac J
08-23-2011, 11:08 AM
If you don't know the edge difference between a carbon and stainless steel blade, then it's tough to recommend one or the other.

The semi-stainless steels are pretty amazing in regards to edge taking and holding ability...I would put my Kono HD and CarboNext up against any carbon double-bevels.

I was previously a carbon lover, but have been migrating to a more of a semi-stainless fan this year.

NO ChoP!
08-23-2011, 11:29 AM
Yah, the whole Swedish steal can be confusing. It seems Misono calls their carbons Swedish, yet others use Swedish stainless, which seems to be a wide variance. And whats with the mystery semi-stainless? If the HD is such a great value because of the steal, then why is the CarboNEXT, with similar characteristics less than half the price?

tk59
08-23-2011, 11:34 AM
...If the HD is such a great value because of the steal, then why is the CarboNEXT, with similar characteristics less than half the price? While the CN isn't bad, the HD is a much better-finished knife with rounded everything. It is also thinner near the edge. It does seem to stay keener longer than the CarboNEXT (or TKC for that matter). The real question is why the CN is cheaper than the TKC because those are "supposedly" the same knife.

karloevaristo
08-23-2011, 12:51 PM
has anyone experienced food reacting to the HD? any food discoloration?

tk59
08-23-2011, 01:15 PM
None whatsoever.

Cadillac J
08-23-2011, 02:09 PM
While the CN isn't bad, the HD is a much better-finished knife with rounded everything. It is also thinner near the edge. It does seem to stay keener longer than the CarboNEXT (or TKC for that matter). The real question is why the CN is cheaper than the TKC because those are "supposedly" the same knife.

Head of the nail has been hit.

CN, in my opinion, is the best value/performance out there--its only major 'weakness' to me is its rounded profile (and its stupid ass name :P), which is totally preference thing anyway. If the Kikuichi TKC has the exact same profile, I don't see any practical reason someone would pay more for it over the CN based on the price difference.

phan1
08-23-2011, 05:42 PM
I've been really interestednin the CN the past week. Ignored it before because of the stupid name. I though the Aristugu A was the best senistainless value out there, but now it seems clearly dethrowned by the CN. Hopefullay they can make a Wa handles version and make it even cheaper

Seb
08-23-2011, 05:54 PM
Mark mentioned before that, after the first or second batch, Kikuichi switched workshops in order to attain a better standard of fit and finish. The result is that the handle and bolster design are totally different - the Kik is more like the Yo lines from Konosuke, Yusuke, Ashi and Tadatsuna.

Personally, I like the new design a lot better because the handle is much much bigger and more comfortably contoured.


My Sakai Yusuke:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h190/aurochs_2006/25june11backup1749-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h190/aurochs_2006/25june11backup1755.jpg


Handles: CarboNext next to the Yusuke:
(Yusuke upper, CN lower)

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h190/aurochs_2006/parers6004.jpg

Seb
08-23-2011, 05:58 PM
Hopefullay they can make a Wa handles version and make it even cheaper

Doubt it'll happen. People have been asking Koki for years but he has never said anything to encourage any hope for this happening. You want Wa you gotta go with the Konosuke HD. The other Wa options out there are about the same price or even more expensive (Heiji, Azuma no Minamoto).

wenus2
08-23-2011, 06:15 PM
If you like the semi-stainless option (its a great option) I will say that, owning the CN and the Kono, the steel shouldn't be the basis for decision between these knives - profile should be. The CN has less flat area and is more suited towards rocking. It's also a more substantial knife (though still thin), and it has a bit more steel behind the edge. The Kono is really quite thin.
For these reasons I would suggest the CN as a great option for every friend and family member I have, but not the Kono.
I, however, prefer the Kono myself.
:knife:

Cadillac J
08-23-2011, 08:01 PM
I will say that, owning the CN and the Kono, the steel shouldn't be the basis for decision between these knives. For these reasons I would suggest the CN as a great option for every friend and family member I have, but not the Kono. I, however, prefer the Kono myself.

Exactly. I love the steels of both the CN and Kono HD, but as knives in feel and use, they are nothing alike at all...nor did anyone ever expect them to be. CN is great for what it is, Konosuke has been and always will be my favorites.

Wagstaff
08-23-2011, 10:39 PM
Tinh-- haven't you pointed out the better handle and bolster on the TKC vs. the CN? Also, my CN has a slight overgrind. It's probably not a huge problem (won't know till I sharpen/thin a good amount of the blade away) but it's noticeable. I don't know if this is a general quality control difference with the TKC.

I'm still buying a CN for my dad. Price point makes it still seem just "the thing". (BTW, I think I'm the only one who has no feelings one way or against for the name "CarboNext". Especially given that there's not any lettering I can read on the blade).

Lefty
08-24-2011, 09:19 AM
I've never used the Carbonext, nor have I used an HD, bit I do have the Konosuke white 2 in my kitchen. Since I agree that steel is only as important as you make it, I'll offer this: the konosuke gyuto profile is pretty close to perfect, as is the grind. It's one of those knives that you can rock for herbs, use the tip for cloves of garlic, and use the heel for potatoes, julienning, etc.
People worry about it being somewhat fragile, but I've never once had the feeling that I'm going to hurt it. In a pro kitchen, where at times anything goes, it won't work as well, because you might have to switch out to a different knife, when you don't want to/have time to. As a prep knife, where you can use the appropriate knife (deboning a chicken, etc) I can't see any issues with a konosuke gyuto.
While the carbonext seems to be getting nods for "best buy of the year", the profile seems to be leaving people in two very distinct camps. One group loves it, and the other says, "I wish they had a flatter version".
I don't think you can go wrong with a konosuke, right now. If you don't end up liking it, I'm sure someone will buy it off of you in a hurry.

tk59
08-24-2011, 03:56 PM
...better handle and bolster on the TKC vs. the CN? Also, my CN has a slight overgrind. It's probably not a huge problem (won't know till I sharpen/thin a good amount of the blade away) but it's noticeable. I don't know if this is a general quality control difference with the TKC.
...(BTW, I think I'm the only one who has no feelings one way or against for the name "CarboNext". Especially given that there's not any lettering I can read on the blade). Well, I don't know about the handle. My CN went with a budding knut on his way to pharmacy school. I don't remember any problems with the handle or anything else though. I don't like the name but I didn't dislike it enough to have a problem owning or buying one. With regard to the profile, it is true that is is not as flat as the KonHD but I can't say I have to make a conscious adjustment when I'm switching between the two nor would I really describe the HD as "flat" at all. To me, the HD is a better knife out of the box, period. The CN can get pretty close with a little thinning. My hamaguri 270 TKC weighs in at 215 g with that metal bolster. My 270 Kon HD with ebony wa comes in at 196 g. My basically stock 240 mm TKC weighs 207 g. Based on flexibility, the 270 TKC seems slightly less flexible. If you look at the 270's from the spine, you would say the TKC is the slightly thinner knife. If you look at the choils, you'd guess the HD was significantly thinner.

Cadillac J
08-24-2011, 04:27 PM
nor would I really describe the HD as "flat" at all

Which is why I'm not a huge fan of the Konosuke gyuto shape. But the sujis have damn near perfect profiles for me...especially my 270 HD.

jgraeff
08-26-2011, 12:24 AM
i feel the opposite thats why i love the Kono gyuto, i feel that a gyuto which is "normally" the most used knife at least in my setting in a pro kitchen should be able to do tip work, slice, as well a chop, and be rocked easily.

I have tried many times to use my suji as my main knife, as much as i love that knife for a lot of things, say when it comes to mincing a shallot not problem what so ever, but chopping parsley really quick just doesn't work for me i have to change my grip to where its not comfortable in order to get it done.

Now that i found a super thin gyuto and that works on just about anything I'm super stoked when i go to work everyday.

Now i now everything that i said is user-specific but i think its important to think about what all you will be using it for and how you use a knife that plays into getting the right profile for you.

JanusInTheGarden
08-26-2011, 12:19 PM
i feel the opposite thats why i love the Kono gyuto, i feel that a gyuto which is "normally" the most used knife at least in my setting in a pro kitchen should be able to do tip work, slice, as well a chop, and be rocked easily.

I have tried many times to use my suji as my main knife, as much as i love that knife for a lot of things, say when it comes to mincing a shallot not problem what so ever, but chopping parsley really quick just doesn't work for me i have to change my grip to where its not comfortable in order to get it done.

Now that i found a super thin gyuto and that works on just about anything I'm super stoked when i go to work everyday.

Now i now everything that i said is user-specific but i think its important to think about what all you will be using it for and how you use a knife that plays into getting the right profile for you.

+1, perfectly fits

TamanegiKin
08-26-2011, 12:30 PM
The Kono profile is near perfect as an all arounder imo.
I use mine in heavy rotation at work.
Although it may not be as flat as say the KS, It's flat enough while still maintaining a high level of versatility...as a gyuto should. I find the tip to be very functional for delicate work, berries and such. I hardly rock knives, push cut nearly everything and the Kono works great for me. The suisins have nearly the same shape, another knife I use a ton at work. Just my two cents.