PDA

View Full Version : Help me design perfect knife



MichaelD
09-04-2011, 08:19 PM
Hi, my name is Michael and most of the time i have spent on knives.pl and knifeforums.com, but I have registered here recently.

My friend who is knifemaker in Poland has asked me recently to design a perfect knife for me:

This is what I have decided so far
Blade length 225-230mm
Blade width 49-50mm
Blade thickness 2 - 2.5mm
Steel: N690 or D2 (61 HRC)
Grind: I have problem with choosing right grind: Full Flat 60/40, 70/30 or Convex (I've seen SaltyDog's videos comparing different grinds)

Knife shapes that I find interesting:
Murray Carter
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/bobsknives/IMG_0627.jpg

Devin Thomas ITK Western

Konosuke HD

Takayuki Grand Chef Wa


Some of the examples of his previous work:

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3699/97252543.jpg

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4140/imgp7775.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/29m0leo.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t200/apsspa/mt/knives/ser1.jpg

Marko Tsourkan
09-04-2011, 10:10 PM
I would not use D2 for a kitchen knife.

SpikeC
09-04-2011, 10:21 PM
Bladowski for a Polish knife sounds like someones sense of humor.........

jmforge
09-05-2011, 12:04 AM
But a good sales gimmick like having the last name Bowie or the first name Dirk.:biggrin:
Bladowski for a Polish knife sounds like someones sense of humor.........

MichaelD
09-05-2011, 02:40 AM
I would not use D2 for a kitchen knife.

Yoshikane, Sakon/ Damask use SKD11 which is D2, so way do you think is a bad idea to use D2 in the kitchen cutlery??

ajhuff
09-05-2011, 09:21 AM
Yoshihiro uses SKD11 core also.

-AJ

oivind_dahle
09-05-2011, 11:07 AM
D2 is semistainless, but I don't understand why a professional blade maker will use it. There are far more better steels out there i.e.: 52100

Marko Tsourkan
09-05-2011, 12:00 PM
Yoshikane, Sakon/ Damask use SKD11 which is D2, so way do you think is a bad idea to use D2 in the kitchen cutlery??

It is not a best steel for kitchen cutlery. Because of the carbides size and type, D2 will perform better as a field knife. But that said, you can make a kitchen knife from any steel. The subject of this thread, however, is to help making a perfect knife, so it might be worth it to look at other steels.

M

ajhuff
09-05-2011, 01:32 PM
I'm not even a knife expert but this smells foul to me. The best material for any application is the one that does the job within it's constraints. You can't define a best steel based on it's chemistry when you are measuring performance values like sharpness, edge retention etc.

-AJ

Marko Tsourkan
09-05-2011, 01:36 PM
I'm not even a knife expert but this smells foul to me. The best material for any application is the one that does the job within it's constraints. You can't define a best steel based on it's chemistry when you are measuring performance values like sharpness, edge retention etc.

-AJ

You are right. Perfect is a relative term. No argument here. I just haven't seen D2 being used much outside field knives. I think there are stainless steels that might be a better choice, but it is all relative.

M

Eamon Burke
09-05-2011, 02:34 PM
Kitchen knives typically benefit from having small, evenly distributed carbide structure. Regular D2 is a very large carbide steel and won't take a fine edge very easily. Basically, the trouble D2 offers in sharpening is not equally proportionate to it's edge-holding/performance. It's often used for outdoor knives that want to put a toothy edge on for cutting rope and whatnot, where the edge can break down but still continue to tear through material.

Crucible makes a powder-steel version that is more highly refined, but it loses it's characteristic large carbides, which is why people choose it--it's tough and toothy. Not great for a chef's knife, unless your dinner is hiding in a burlap sack tied with nylon rope.

MichaelD
09-05-2011, 04:25 PM
The knife will be probably made of stainless N690 steel (used by Extrema Ratio, Benchmade) hardened to 61 HRC or polish tool steel NC6 (61-62 HRC) http://www.multistal.pl/go.live.php/EN-H315/nc6.html

I have have decided that I prefer knives with relative small belly (flat) and with "fake" Wa-Handle like in this gyuto made by Delbert Ealy, but I have still problems what grind to choose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uYfSihXbFo

Eamon Burke
09-05-2011, 04:31 PM
Ealy-handled construction is coming up big. Very popular. There aren't any "like" the Ealy handle, as it stands, Del is the guy who does them.

As far as grind, just don't go full flat and polished.

MichaelD
09-05-2011, 05:17 PM
I will probably go with convex grind

Next question relates to the size of handle (blade 225-230mm, pinch grip), as there are quite substantial differences in Wa type handles:
Ashi Hamono 210mm
# Handle Length- 134.0mm
# Handle Height- 25.0mm
# Handle Width- 20.75mm

Gesshin Ginga 210mm
# Handle Length- 131mm
# Handle Height- 20.14mm
# Handle Width- 24.64mm

Gesshin Ino 210mm
# Handle Length- 139.0mm
# Handle Height- 27.5mm
# Handle Width- 22.4mm

Heiji 210mm
# Handle Length- 127mm
# Handle Height- 25.7mm
# Handle Width- 20.5mm

Konosuke 240mm HD
# Handle Length- 146mm
# Handle Height- 24.70mm
# Handle Width- 19.25mm

Ashi 240mm Stainless
# Handle Length- 139.0mm
# Handle Height- 26.0mm
# Handle Width- 21.8mm

Gesshin Ginga 240mm
# Handle Length- 13.8mm
# Handle Height- 26.15mm
# Handle Width- 21.62mm

Gesshin Hide 240mm
• Handle Length- 140mm
• Handle Height- 27mm
• Handle Width- 23.70mm

MichaelD
09-05-2011, 07:38 PM
http://www.fotoszok.pl/upload/173506ab.jpg

Blade length 230mm
Blade width 50mm
Handle length 135mm
Handle width 27mm

What do you think about this project ?

JohnnyChance
09-06-2011, 02:33 AM
Is that to scale? If the heel is 50mm tall, then the tang is too tall. The taper on the handle should be the other way around, thinnest/shortest where it meets the tang and fattest/tallest at the butt. It also generally preferable to have the handle angled upwards slightly to give you better leverage and knuckle clearance. It should still run parallel to the spine, not installed at an angle. To achieve an angle on the handle, have the flat spot near the heel run slightly towards the spine, not run parallel to it.

MichaelD
09-07-2011, 07:41 PM
Thank you for your advice :)

New concept, new designs:

http://www.fotoszok.pl/upload/0f765555.jpg

Marko Tsourkan
09-07-2011, 07:54 PM
Thank you for your advice :)

New concept, new designs:

http://www.fotoszok.pl/upload/0f765555.jpg

I vote for the second from the bottom.

M

ajhuff
09-07-2011, 08:46 PM
I like #6

-AJ

so_sleepy
09-07-2011, 11:19 PM
+1 #6

Andrew H
09-07-2011, 11:20 PM
Really? #6 looks like too much belly for me. I say #5

so_sleepy
09-07-2011, 11:22 PM
Really? #6 looks like too much belly for me. I say #5

#5 looks like a big santoku, I don't like the tip.

SpikeC
09-07-2011, 11:32 PM
+1 #6

Andrew H
09-07-2011, 11:38 PM
#5 looks like a big santoku, I don't like the tip.

Obviously it's entirely subjective but I'd rather go with a little less point for much less belly, just me though.

JohnnyChance
09-08-2011, 01:23 AM
#4 is okay. #6 is better, but the tip is still too high.

MichaelD
09-08-2011, 02:01 AM
I personal favourite is 3, 4 with flatter profile :)

http://www.fotoszok.pl/upload/37383ab8.jpg

Vertigo
09-08-2011, 09:38 PM
Save yourself some cash.

http://iweb.rachaelraystore.com/images/products/enlarge/638280e.jpg

:D

JohnnyChance
09-09-2011, 12:08 AM
That handle design would interfere with my pinch grip and be uncomfortable for me personally. Profile is better, I would still cut off the corner on the spine near the tip, and make the tip much pointier, like a Masamoto/Carter/Marko.

Eamon Burke
09-09-2011, 12:30 AM
I personal favourite is 3, 4 with flatter profile :)

http://www.fotoszok.pl/upload/37383ab8.jpg

That strange handle cutaway looks uncomfortable, though it is visually appealing.




I vote for #5, though I'd use #7 at work.