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FryBoy
03-07-2011, 05:24 PM
I have an Edge Pro Apex. I have only the stones that came with it -- 120, 220, 320, 600, & 1000 grit, plus the 2000 & 3000 tapes.

I'm considering buying some additional stones to use with the EP, specifically the Chosera stones sold by CKTG, but I'm unsure what I should get.

They have a 2000, 3000, 5000, and 10,000 grit stones, as well as coarser stones and a set with 8 stones ranging from 400 to 10K.

I've been thinking the 3000 and 5000 would be a good start, but would I be better off with 2000 and 5000, or should I get all three? The set of 8 is tempting but probably overkill.

Any suggestions?

mikemac
03-07-2011, 05:48 PM
I was looking at the same question not long ago....after communicating with Dale (?) at EP, and one of the re-sellers, seemed like the EP stones are pretty good, so I just opted for adding a Chosera 5k. Perrsonally I don't feel like I see the benefit from using lots of stones to get from 1k to 5k, so I would say jsut get the 5k to start. Trust me....when I accidentaly and unknowingly cut my self, I bleed just as much when I;'ve gone 500,1k, aoto,4k,6k,8k as when I've progressed 1k ->5k.

FryBoy
03-07-2011, 07:22 PM
Well, this is interesting -- and confusing. I decided to ask Ben, the owner of Edge Pro, about stones. He provided the following information comparing the stones that come with the EP to the Japanese standards:

EP = Japanese
320 = 2000
600 = 5000
1000 just a little finer than the 8000
1200 exactly the same as the 15,000
2000 polish tape = 20,000
3000 polish tape = 25,000
6000 polish tape = 30,000 or 1 micron

If that's accurate, then there would seem to be little purpose in buying additional stones.

Comments?

JohnnyChance
03-07-2011, 08:23 PM
That is not correct. A 320 is not like a 2000 grit waterstone, and there is no way a 1000 is close to 8000. My 1000 or Ultra Fine EP stone feels pretty similar to my Bester 1200, maybe a bit finer. When I bought choseras for my EP, I found someones blog that compared the EP, Shapton and Chosera stones. They had a nice chart that converted them all to the same measuring system, and their numbers were way different than the ones you were given. I cannot find it at the moment, but I will try to. They concluded to jump from the 1000 EP to a 2k or 3k Chosera, and then you could go 5k or 10k. I chose 3k/10k, but wished I had done 2k/5k, then added the 10k later.

Dave5440
03-07-2011, 09:25 PM
I have the Chosera stones for my EP, I think you could do without some of them but at 199 for the set of 8 , I would go for the set of 8. By the way can anybody explain to me why the Chosera 400 grinds zdp189/cowryX far better than the EP120?
Dave

mikemac
03-08-2011, 03:24 PM
When I did my search a few months ago pretty much every comment confirmed that Ben's proprietary stones and grit numbers are different from the JIS (?) numbers. Gator's z-knives site has this write up: http://zknives.com/knives/sharpening/edgeproapex.shtml

Looking beyond whatever number is on the stone, elite sharpeners generally report that the EP stones and tapes are good...just the Shaptons and Choseras are better. The purpose in replacing what you have is to feed the addiction....


....the following information comparing the stones that come with the EP to the Japanese standards:

EP = Japanese
320 = 2000
600 = 5000
1000 just a little finer than the 8000
1200 exactly the same as the 15,000
2000 polish tape = 20,000
3000 polish tape = 25,000
6000 polish tape = 30,000 or 1 micron

If that's accurate, then there would seem to be little purpose in buying additional stones.

Comments?

JohnnyChance
03-08-2011, 03:34 PM
http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2010/01/10/which-edge-pro-stones-stock-chosera-or-shapton/

Ha! Of course it was the Jende blog.


If you choose to go with Chosera, the 2K or 3K Chosera will set up the edge for the 5K and 10K Choseras. Since the 3K is not a polishing stone, going from the 1K stock EP to the Chosera 3K is reasonable. Skipping from 2K to 5K and 3K to 10K is also acceptable, although still using the 5K before the 10K is probably best in the long run. Because of the close proximity of the 2K and 3K, the best option for you will depend on which stone is used before and after.

Get the 3k and 5k, and if you would like to later, get the 10k.

bcrano
12-07-2011, 05:39 PM
To jump start this again... replacing stock stones (having them replaced as Xmas gift). Pretty sure ***** is the place to go. What should I get? Shaptons? Chosera? and what #s? I've been pretty simple about this but with better knives on the way want better more comprehensive set. All I care about is getting them really sharp, not a huge need a mirror finish junkie... Thoughts? I really appreciate the advice.

Pensacola Tiger
12-07-2011, 07:57 PM
A set of four Chocera stones are all you'll need - 400, 1000, 5000 and 10000.

bcrano
12-07-2011, 11:53 PM
Thanks Rick! That's all I needed to know!

jm2hill
12-08-2011, 02:36 AM
Don't get it. Get regular stones and learn on those. You'll be amazed at the difference. I will regret to say I have one and its firmly locked away somewhere, never to be seen again.

Pensacola Tiger
12-08-2011, 07:51 AM
Don't get it. Get regular stones and learn on those. You'll be amazed at the difference. I will regret to say I have one and its firmly locked away somewhere, never to be seen again.

The OP already has an Edge Pro Apex. He's not asking whether to get one, but rather which premium stones to get.

jm2hill
12-08-2011, 08:51 AM
The OP already has an Edge Pro Apex. He's not asking whether to get one, but rather which premium stones to get.

I was trying to say: Don't bother getting any of the Chosera EP stones. Spend that money and get real stones and learn on those instead. a 1000/6000 will give a better edge with time and practice of course than the EP.

Its a great tool for someone who wants to set a primary cutting bevel but that sums it up for me.

99Limited
12-08-2011, 09:27 AM
... I will regret to say I have one and its firmly locked away somewhere, never to be seen again.

If you're not using it anymore, can I borrow it for a little while?

Pensacola Tiger
12-08-2011, 09:43 AM
I was trying to say: Don't bother getting any of the Chosera EP stones. Spend that money and get real stones and learn on those instead. a 1000/6000 will give a better edge with time and practice of course than the EP.

Its a great tool for someone who wants to set a primary cutting bevel but that sums it up for me.

It didn't come across that way, at least not to me.

Freehand is great if you want to take the time to develop the skills, but the Edge Pro (and the Wicked Edge) are perfectly capable of producing edges that are as sharp as many of us are capable of producing.

bcrano
12-08-2011, 10:26 AM
Yeah rick that's just it. I can appreciate the zeal and intellectual purity of many here who sing from the rafters about freehand. And someday I'd like to learn. Like in 45 years when I retire. But I love knives because of course I appreciate their value as hand crafted artisan made goods but more so because I love to cook. I love to cook infinitely more than I love (or am even interested in) sharpening. I'd rather spend the time now working on developing and deepening my cooking skills rather than sharpening. I'm picking my battles. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I feel.

Justin0505
12-08-2011, 04:02 PM
I certainly don't want to turn this into an Edgepro vs freehand debate. I have both and like both. IMO people who knock or dismiss one system vs another usually dont fully understand or haven't mastered the system that they are criticizing.

EP's are good for alot more that just setting bevels and freehand doesn't take 20years of meditation and the renouncement of all things guided to master.

What I advocate is having a variety of tools and using them all appropriately.
I don't have the counter space to leave my EP permanently setup. So an edge starts to go beyond where honing rods or strops can bring it all the way back, its very fast for me to just splash some water on my j-nat and touch up the edge freehand.

With the use of regular edge maintenance on hones stops and high-grit water stones, I can go for months just spending a couple minutes here or there.

So, while I don't agree that you should bury your EP somewhere never to be seen again, I do agree that you might get more enjoyment / value for your $'s by investing in something different like a high grit (6-10k) freehand stone or maybe some stropping equipment... stuff that in the long run will save you time and allow you to cook for longer between EP sessions.

Lastly, as for the chosera EP set: I wouldn't buy it if you already have a full set of EP stones.
Yes, the chosera's feel a little nicer and some cut a little faster, but you're not going to get much of a benefit in replacing lower grit stones with other lower grit stones.
I have added an EP 800, and a Chosera 1k and 10k to my EP lineup. The EP800 leaves a more refined finish than the Cho1k. The Cho10k is finer than the EP1k, but not as fine as the EP polish tapes (i have yellow 3k and pink 6k).
If you are really set on buying more stones for your EP, then Id remomend looking at higher grit finishing stones (< cho5k or maybe one of the fine naturals).

One last piece of EP advise: try to find stones of the same thickness - some aftermarket stones are different thickness and require you to reset the angle on your EP which would be a huge PITA if all your stones in a progression where different thickness.

bcrano
12-08-2011, 04:08 PM
Thanks Justin. Really good ideas.

jm2hill
12-08-2011, 05:04 PM
It didn't come across that way, at least not to me.

Freehand is great if you want to take the time to develop the skills, but the Edge Pro (and the Wicked Edge) are perfectly capable of producing edges that are as sharp as many of us are capable of producing.

I was very sleepy this morning. I could easily see the confusion :). Maybe its just the system I didn't enjoy it and didn't enjoy the edges. But of course, to each his own.




One last piece of EP advise: try to find stones of the same thickness - some aftermarket stones are different thickness and require you to reset the angle on your EP which would be a huge PITA if all your stones in a progression where different thickness.

Take a look on youtube for a video about a drill collar stop and the EP. Great way to maintain the angle. Will definitely help you keep consistency with the aftermarket special stones.

I have also heard another thing is don't get the choseras from CKTG. Get them from J-ende industries (google it without the hyphen): I've heard they are cut quite a bit thicker than the CKTG.



I however cannot confirm this.

jm2hill
12-08-2011, 05:08 PM
If you're not using it anymore, can I borrow it for a little while?

I think 3 people have asked me this after my crazy hate rant :) (I don't really hate the system - just wasn't for me). Some to buy. Some to borrow.

I would gladly due a "passaround" of sorts if enough people were interested in trying the system and just seeing what its like.

stevenStefano
12-08-2011, 05:29 PM
I also have an EP which I never use any more. Just wasn't for me and to be honest I ain't gonna say much because I've said why I don't like it before on other forums and my views have been rubbished and got a huge reply from diehard EP experts who tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. To cut to the chase, I found the action of using it quite tiring and uncomfortable, I sit when I freehand and you can't do that with the EP. Another simple one is that my freehand edges seem infinitely more durable and sharp than anything I could ever do with the EP. A lot of people have great success with it and when I got it I had much the same opinion as bcrano in that I was fairly new to knives and I had more of an interest in knives than sharpening really and I wanted to be able to use knives without spending time learning how to freehand properly

Pensacola Tiger
12-08-2011, 06:01 PM
I have also heard another thing is don't get the choseras from CKTG. Get them from J-ende industries (google it without the hyphen): I've heard they are cut quite a bit thicker than the CKTG.



I however cannot confirm this.

I'll confirm it, and note that the ***** Industries Choceras are a bit more expensive and have no free shipping, but are almost twice as thick.

Justin0505
12-08-2011, 07:28 PM
I do use the drill stop collar trick as well, but things get really complicated if youre working an asymmetrical or compound edge.
Its not that bad if you only have to make the transition between thick and thin stones once, but if you have to changed back and forth several times in your progression, it gets old fast and its easy forget and start grindig away at the wrong angle.

SpikeC
12-08-2011, 08:24 PM
I thought, "passaround!" then I thought, the shipping would be more than my curiosity. I'm not interested in the setup dance with a guided system. I grab a stone and touchup or regrind an edge in less time than setting up a jig would take, based on my experience with keeping woodworking hand tools functioning.