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James
09-07-2011, 02:38 PM
So I've read through a lot of posts saying that shirogami gets the sharpest out of the carbon steels and this got me wondering, which of the SSs can get the sharpest? The one that comes into mind for me is 13c26. Just a post made out of curiosity; input, as always, is really appreciated.

JohnnyChance
09-07-2011, 02:49 PM
My favorite stainless edges come from Devin's AEB-L and Miyabi's SG2. I don't think I have used 13c26 though.

Aphex
09-07-2011, 02:53 PM
The steel (13c27 i think) on my Suisin Honyaki gets pretty darn sharp as well.

James
09-07-2011, 02:56 PM
13c26, unless I'm mistaken, is the same as AEB-L. haha I always hear such great things about it (very fine edge due to fine carbide structure etc etc), not to mention Devin's great heat treat.

Dave Martell
09-07-2011, 02:57 PM
My favorite is Cowry-X used by Hattori

James
09-07-2011, 02:59 PM
My favorite is Cowry-X used by Hattori

:drool: I doubt I'll ever get to play with those; according to Koki, #1 on the waiting list has been first since 08...

JBroida
09-07-2011, 03:07 PM
suisin inox honyaki is 19c27 for what its worth

Lefty
09-07-2011, 03:07 PM
Cowry-X surprises me. I always thought it was really tough to sharpen, because of it's hardness. However, if it's abrasion resistance isn't crazy, or if the HT is done with sharpenability in mind, I guess I could see it on "the list".

JohnnyChance
09-07-2011, 03:12 PM
Well the question was, which stainless gets the sharpest, not which one is easiest to sharpen. I am sure it was a bear to sharpen, but in the end, Dave apparently was happy with the edge he was able to put on it.

Lefty
09-07-2011, 03:23 PM
Good point. I guess I assumed sharpest = easy to sharpen.

Timthebeaver
09-07-2011, 03:28 PM
Sugimoto CM takes a nice edge.

Larrin
09-07-2011, 03:32 PM
The better question is what properties of a steel affect the level of sharpness and then to look at which steels exhibit those properties to the extent that we know them.

Dave Martell
09-07-2011, 03:58 PM
I mentioned Cowry-X (Hattori KD experience only) because, even today after all I've seen, it always makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck when I touch the edge. Funny thing about this is that it's super easy to both abrade & de-burr.

Eamon Burke
09-07-2011, 04:02 PM
I think that, in a kitchen setting, the factors that would determine the most extreme level of attainable sharpness are moot. Carbide size, etc. Kind of a non issue since kitchen knives sharpened up to a grit where the largest depression in the steel's surface is equal or lesser than the size of a particle in the steel...doesn't cut well often, and almost never lasts beyond a few foods.

To me, the qualities that make good steel good are how LONG it holds it's edge. After a day at work, you can't do a comfortable shave with the knives I've used at work for years...but that doesn't mean they don't still breeze through food.

Not sure how we would even test this, since there isn't a cost-effective, realistic means of sharpening a blade to that kind of comparative extreme.

Eamon Burke
09-07-2011, 04:03 PM
I mentioned Cowry-X (Hattori KD experience only) because, even today after all I've seen, it always makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck when I touch the edge. Funny thing about this is that it's super easy to both abrade & de-burr.

Interesting! I would love to check that out.

ajhuff
09-07-2011, 04:07 PM
The better question is what properties of a steel affect the level of sharpness and then to look at which steels exhibit those properties to the extent that we know them.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the speed across the liquidus when the steel is cast is important and completely overlooked though to be fair, would also be completely unknown to anyone outside the process. I think that initial grain size and shape and precipitate distribution sets the stage for everything else.

-AJ

Larrin
09-07-2011, 04:07 PM
I think that, in a kitchen setting, the factors that would determine the most extreme level of attainable sharpness are moot. Carbide size, etc. Kind of a non issue since kitchen knives sharpened up to a grit where the largest depression in the steel's surface is equal or lesser than the size of a particle in the steel...doesn't cut well often, and almost never lasts beyond a few foods.

To me, the qualities that make good steel good are how LONG it holds it's edge. After a day at work, you can't do a comfortable shave with the knives I've used at work for years...but that doesn't mean they don't still breeze through food.

Not sure how we would even test this, since there isn't a cost-effective, realistic means of sharpening a blade to that kind of comparative extreme.
If we're not taking things to extremes then what is the point of this forum? Are we going to be "everyone else?"

Larrin
09-07-2011, 04:10 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say the speed across the liquidus when the steel is cast is important and completely overlooked though to be fair, would also be completely unknown to anyone outside the process. I think that initial grain size and shape and precipitate distribution sets the stage for everything else.

-AJ
But the final microstructure and properties of the steel can be tested. While the specifics of manufacture could only be conjecture based on these properties, certainly the end result can be analyzed. If the steel composition is good but the end result is bad than we can declare the steel is bad. If it's a general alloy (i.e. A2, D2, etc.) then the manufacturer of said steel is a point of comparison.

Eamon Burke
09-07-2011, 04:12 PM
Well, I think expecting a knife to survive a weekend with Chef Colin without sharpening is pretty damned extreme.

I am just saying that ultimate, mechanically perfect, definitive sharpness is not a quality that is even close to priority #1 for me in a Kitchen knife. I think there is more room to obsess over these technicalities and specifics in straight razors.

ajhuff
09-07-2011, 04:24 PM
But the final microstructure and properties of the steel can be tested. While the specifics of manufacture could only be conjecture based on these properties, certainly the end result can be analyzed. If the steel composition is good but the end result is bad than we can declare the steel is bad. If it's a general alloy (i.e. A2, D2, etc.) then the manufacturer of said steel is a point of comparison.

True. I guess I was thinking more of what drives the final microstructure by starting at the beginning.

I'm surprised no one has gathered up some broken blades and had the tests done. I know it's not cheap but still it could be done.

-AJ

Larrin
09-07-2011, 04:29 PM
Well, I think expecting a knife to survive a weekend with Chef Colin without sharpening is pretty damned extreme.

I am just saying that ultimate, mechanically perfect, definitive sharpness is not a quality that is even close to priority #1 for me in a Kitchen knife. I think there is more room to obsess over these technicalities and specifics in straight razors.
It's true that our ability to sharpen is usually more important than potential sharpness. However, many of the factors that control peak sharpness also mean greater edge stability. Which, of course, is a type of edge retention.

Cadillac J
09-07-2011, 05:05 PM
I can get my semi-stainless Kono HD, Suisin IH and CarbN ridiculously sharp to the point where I don't see a huge difference in sharpeness between them and my white#2 or other carbon knives (hence why I used to be a carbon man, but have been switching over to semi)...not to mention, they all hold their edges' longer as well.

Larrin
09-07-2011, 05:21 PM
I can get my semi-stainless Kono HD, Suisin IH and CarbN ridiculously sharp to the point where I don't see a huge difference in sharpeness between them and my white#2 or other carbon knives (hence why I used to be a carbon man, but have been switching over to semi)...not to mention, they all hold their edges' longer as well.
So to complete the evolution we just have to get you onto an AEB-L knife you like. :)

TamanegiKin
09-07-2011, 08:23 PM
I can get my semi-stainless Kono HD, Suisin IH and CarbN ridiculously sharp to the point where I don't see a huge difference in sharpeness between them and my white#2 or other carbon knives (hence why I used to be a carbon man, but have been switching over to semi)...not to mention, they all hold their edges' longer as well.

Of the three you listed I've used the Suisin 19c27 and have similar thoughts. I thought I was going crazy but it gets very sharp and hangs on to it well. Just dont tell my carbon knives...

Cadillac J
09-07-2011, 08:53 PM
So to complete the evolution we just have to get you onto an AEB-L knife you like. :)

Now you're talking man. The AEB-L in my old DT was really awesome to sharpen and it seemed to hold the edge well, but the geometry was too thick for me (it was an early one from the initial batch of 10). In fact, that was the knife that broke my carbon-only tunnel vision at that time.

Seb
09-07-2011, 09:00 PM
My Ashi Ginga 240mm Wa-gyuto is so thin it blows my mind. This sucker is AEB-L hardened to 61 (by special request to Ashi Hamono at no extra cost).

Marko Tsourkan
09-07-2011, 09:02 PM
Now you're talking man. The AEB-L in my old DT was really awesome to sharpen and it seemed to hold the edge well, but the geometry was too thick for me (it was an early one from the initial batch of 10). In fact, that was the knife that broke my carbon-only tunnel vision at that time.

Devin makes his thinner now, and his heat will top any Japanese. Maybe time to revisit another DT?

M

tk59
09-07-2011, 09:15 PM
I'm pretty much Caddy's situation but if I had to choose a stainless steel right now for my only knife, I'd choose Devin's AEB-L. After that, I'd go for some other AEB-L/13C26 and after that, 19C27.

l r harner
09-07-2011, 09:24 PM
XHP or cpmS110v depends on what we are cutting :)

Seb
09-07-2011, 11:43 PM
Devin makes his thinner now, and his heat will top any Japanese. Maybe time to revisit another DT?

M

What a load of nonsense and based on what?

You talking down Nenohi and Hattori? Good luck to you.

phan1
09-08-2011, 12:31 AM
This is pretty much the requirement that I'm always looking for in a gyuto: stainless but sharp like carbon steel. So far, I've only experience with Devin Thomas's AEB-L and the Konosuke HD, and both are really great.

But honestly, though some say they get close to the sharpness of carbon, my experience has been that they just don't. As great as they are, my DT ITK and my Konosuke HD don't touch the level of sharpness that my blue #2 Aritsugu yanagi achieves. I think it depends on the stones. When I take my knives up to about 5k, then they're all doing great. When I go 8k and up, my blue #2 yanagi just starts leaving any stainless I've tried in the dust. That's why I'm always on the lookout for the next great stainless steel, cause I still think they have a lot of room for improvement.

phan1
09-08-2011, 12:47 AM
What a load of nonsense and based on what?

You talking down Nenohi and Hattori? Good luck to you.

I'd say the DT ITK has better steel than the Konosuke HD, which is definitely one of the best we've seen out of Japan. But it's not by much and I do prefer using the HD in most situations. And the ridiculously priced stainless Nenohi knives have really fallen out of favor in these forums over the years. From Marko's history as a forum member, I wouldn't doubt much of what he says.

Marko Tsourkan
09-08-2011, 12:55 AM
What a load of nonsense and based on what?

You talking down Nenohi and Hattori? Good luck to you.

And what do you base your comment on? Do you own a DT? Have you compared edge retention between DT and Japanese knives? I come to think that you know little about heat treating, steels and metallurgy in general, never done anything of the sort and here you call something than can be proven a nonsense? What makes you an expert on these things?

I would bet my money that DT will outcut Nenohi and Hattory on edge retention. And I would bet my money that DT AEB-L and some Japanese makers AEB-L (or equivalent) are completely different performer because of the custom heat treatment on DT.

M

PS: if you have any personal issues, address it on PM. We don't need any more drama here. :)

tk59
09-08-2011, 01:39 AM
Addendum: I just realized I totally forgot about Niolox. I would probably take that right after Devin's AEB-L somewhere.

As for Marko's comment about Devin's HT, I don't know for sure either way but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.

Marko Tsourkan
09-08-2011, 01:58 AM
Now I am itching to do a KD and DT side-by-side rope cutting test to compare edge retention, but would need DT to be ground similarly to KD (at least as thin).

I think this will be an interesting project and I already approached a well known member on this forum to do this type of test with me, to give the test credibility. Hopefully, we will put some myths to rest.

M

Seb
09-08-2011, 02:32 AM
And what do you base your comment on? Do you own a DT? Have you compared edge retention between DT and Japanese knives? I come to think that you know little about heat treating, steels and metallurgy in general, never done anything of the sort and here you call something than can be proven a nonsense? What makes you an expert on these things?

I would bet my money that DT will outcut Nenohi and Hattory on edge retention. And I would bet my money that DT AEB-L and some Japanese makers AEB-L (or equivalent) are completely different performer because of the custom heat treatment on DT.

M

PS: if you have any personal issues, address it on PM. We don't need any more drama here. :)

In other words, you have nothing but conjecture. Because you made the assertion, you are the one who bears the onus of proof, not me (it's a well-established tenet of Western justice).

My, aren't we paranoid? There is no personal issue here on my part but, by your own recent admission, you have been guilty of making loose, unsubstantiated shoot-from-the-hip statements - and you should expect to be called out on it. ;)

Keep your money in your pocket but watch what you say. :)

PS: I am an expert on logic and I am taking the time to school you because I come to think that you no little about it (as you have shown before).

wenus2
09-08-2011, 03:31 AM
you no little

Whoopsies. I hate when I try to act all smart and uppity then fall victim to simple homonyms.:pullhair:
:tooth:

jaybett
09-08-2011, 04:01 AM
PS: I am an expert on logic and I am taking the time to school you because I come to think that you no little about it (as you have shown before).

An instant classic!

The possibilities are endless.

Seb you should change your user name to No Se.

Jay

Marko Tsourkan
09-08-2011, 09:20 AM
You love the stage and don't miss an opportunity to use it, Mr. LOGIC EXPERT, but somehow your logic doesn't seem to apply when you consume myths that surround (or put forward by) Japanese knife makers. Obviously you brought up Nenohi and Hattori, so you think of them highly. On what basis? Do you own them? Do you know anybody on the forum who can attest to their performance? I am not talking about their ability to cut, but their ability to hold an edge for an extended period of time.

I have tested two steels with DT heat treatment and will test more and will back up my claims with proof, rest assure. And if need be, I will send out knives for a third-party testing.


M

chazmtb
09-08-2011, 09:25 AM
Man,
Must be something in the water down under.

goodchef1
09-08-2011, 09:37 AM
Man, I knew I should have stayed away from this kind of thread, but my darn curiosity got the best of me. OP's, this is what you get when you elicit "what is the best" or "sharpest" type of threads. some like to instigate for this very purpose, but to those others, please be mindful of your posts, it is not that important to win an argument, or debate. there is no prize or award at the end, and the best that comes from it is a reputation that you might not expect.

it is not hard to discredit someone who claims, "this is the best" or "that is the sharpest" so why even try, nobody buys into that anyway. Instead of finding out what is the sharpest or best, get good at sharpening and creating bevels and you can do wonders with pretty much any steel out there. Right now, my $40 Kotetsu Nakiri screams through my cuts after re profile.

mr drinky
09-08-2011, 10:06 AM
Just wondering, but outside of the Hattori KD, is there another knife to try in Cowry-x? Something that is obtainable in my lifetime?

k.

Rottman
09-08-2011, 10:30 AM
With lots of luck you might find a Sanetu santoku in Cowry X. Koki sold it years ago, now they make the same knife in ZDP-189.

obtuse
09-08-2011, 11:30 AM
Henkels miyabi morimoto edition About $400

SpikeC
09-08-2011, 12:24 PM
Not nonsense, Devin uses science, not eyeballing, to do HT.

tk59
09-08-2011, 12:27 PM
Not nonsense, Devin uses science, not eyeballing, to do HT. I didn't know it was possible to "eyeball" HT on stainless. If it is, please enlighten me.

Larrin
09-08-2011, 01:11 PM
I didn't know it was possible to "eyeball" HT on stainless. If it is, please enlighten me.
It's possible to eyeball anything. :P

Larrin
09-08-2011, 01:19 PM
Getting back on topic I will say that the high hardness and brittleness of Cowry-X makes deburring very easy because the fracture on the burrs is easy. In many ways harder steel is easier to sharpen. It's kind of a myth that softer steel equals easier to sharpen. However, the large carbide volume of Cowry-X would kind of remove it from the competition.

With steel selection and heat treatment there are many factors to consider. The effect of hardness/toughness on sharpening is just one of those.

The Edge
09-08-2011, 01:19 PM
Does anyone know how cronidur 30 stacks up to the rest of the SS? I know the edge retaining of the steel won't compare to most steels used at an hrc of ~58, but it seems that with the high levels of nitrogen in the steel, it produces smaller nitrides and carbonitrides than more typical SS. Any info would be amusing...

Larrin
09-08-2011, 01:24 PM
Does anyone know how cronidur 30 stacks up to the rest of the SS? I know the edge retaining of the steel won't compare to most steels used at an hrc of ~58, but it seems that with the high levels of nitrogen in the steel, it produces smaller nitrides and carbonitrides than more typical SS. Any info would be amusing...
There's a data sheet here: http://steirereisen.at/joomla/images/files/datenblatt_cronidur30_.pdf
It doesn't have many comparisons but the micrographs show some nice fine carbides. It also has high corrosion resistance, of course, and good toughness. The main drawback is the somewhat limited peak hardness. And also availability to some extent. It's best suited to knives requiring high corrosion resistance, which is a somewhat limited application, IMO, and no I wouldn't consider kitchen knives to be one of those applications.

tk59
09-08-2011, 01:48 PM
It's possible to eyeball anything. :P
LOL. I guess my comment should have read, "I was not aware that eyeballing stainless was a common practice anywhere." or something to that effect. Is that not the case?

Larrin
09-08-2011, 01:52 PM
LOL. I guess my comment should have read, "I was not aware that eyeballing stainless was a common practice anywhere." or something to that effect. Is that not the case?
It wouldn't surprise me if someone out there is doing it, maybe even a Japanese maker. You are correct in that most people aren't stupid enough to attempt it. However, as far as I know there aren't any Japanese smiths out there claiming the superiority of their stainless heat treatment. So that removes us from the argument of traditional Japanese heat treating vs modern methods. My assumption from the equipment exhibited in various online videos for Japanese knifemakers is that they send out their stainless knives for heat treatment. When it comes to the mass produced stainless Japanese knives (of which there are many, of course), they have a pretty vanilla mass heat treatment.

Dave Martell
09-08-2011, 05:42 PM
I hope everyone understands that I answered Cowry-X to the original poster's question of what stainless can attain the highest level of sharpness. I didn't consider edge retention when I answered.

If the question had been give me a list of the top stainless steels that attain the highest level of sharpness I would have answered Cowry-X (Hattori KD), AEB-L (Devin Thomas), CPM-154 (Butch Harner) as the ones that come to my mind as being able to get crazy sharp. Notice I listed the makers next to each steel? I think this is important because steel is only one part of the equation of what matters when trying to make a knife sharp, it's just one piece of the puzzle. The other factor is what the maker does with the steel through heat treat and geometry grinds. I find it hard to say "X" steel is the best for anything without knowing who'll be using it to make (or has made) the knife.

Also worth noting is that I don't like to compare single bevels to doubles since they're such different creatures geometry wise. It's easy to fool ourselves by saying the steel from a yanigiba gets sharper than the steel from a gyuto simply because the geometry of the yanigiba has a distinct advantage and lends itself to making a sharper edge or maybe one that feels sharper anyway. For instance has anyone ever sharpened a gyuto and yanigiba with the same steel from the same maker and not found the yanagiba to be the better cutter?

Just some food for thought....

Dave Martell
09-08-2011, 05:54 PM
Something that you guys may find amusing is that when it comes to belt sharpening (not using stones at all - that's different) I find Shun's VG10 to be one of the best screaming edges I can provide. I hate to hand sharpen these knives for the same reasons many of you guys do but I love belt sharpening them - I'll take these in for sharpening over honyaki Gokinkomokoyoko steel any day of the week.

Eamon Burke
09-09-2011, 12:20 AM
Also worth noting is that I don't like to compare single bevels to doubles since they're such different creatures geometry wise. It's easy to fool ourselves by saying the steel from a yanigiba gets sharper than the steel from a gyuto simply because the geometry of the yanigiba has a distinct advantage and lends itself to making a sharper edge or maybe one that feels sharper anyway.

WORD.

Seb
09-09-2011, 12:44 AM
You love the stage and don't miss an opportunity to use it, Mr. LOGIC EXPERT, but somehow your logic doesn't seem to apply when you consume myths that surround (or put forward by) Japanese knife makers. Obviously you brought up Nenohi and Hattori, so you think of them highly. On what basis? Do you own them? Do you know anybody on the forum who can attest to their performance? I am not talking about their ability to cut, but their ability to hold an edge for an extended period of time.

I have tested two steels with DT heat treatment and will test more and will back up my claims with proof, rest assure. And if need be, I will send out knives for a third-party testing.


M

It's pretty obvious that you have a vested commercial interest in talking down Japanese knives, just as you attempted to talk down another vendor recently.

You, sir, are simply full of hot air. What you offered was not even opinion, it was a brain-fart.

Seb
09-09-2011, 12:44 AM
Man,
Must be something in the water down under.

Shut it, Groupie.

Seb
09-09-2011, 12:51 AM
An instant classic!

The possibilities are endless.

Seb you should change your user name to No Se.

Jay

Sey, wats yer probelm anywayz? You can hav a tanttrumm like last week but no one else iz allowd?

Get yer momz to wipe yer azz.

JohnnyChance
09-09-2011, 01:07 AM
Let's try to raise the level of discourse here, not lower it further. If you do not want to talk about what stainless steels and which, in your opinion, get the sharpest, leave it out of this thread.

jaybett
09-09-2011, 01:31 AM
Sey, wats yer probelm anywayz? You can hav a tanttrumm like last week but no one else iz allowd?

Get yer momz to wipe yer azz.
The master of logic in his wisdom has spoken.

Oh and you could also change your user to name to Sgt. Schultz. Remember the character from Hogan's Heros? His signature line was, "I know nothing". In your case it would be I no nothing.

Jay

Dave Martell
09-09-2011, 01:39 AM
Guys I'm as guilty as anyone for slinging a name or two but I'm asking that the insults stop and that we get back on topic here. None of us are into thread locking so let's not go there.

goodchef1
09-09-2011, 01:41 AM
I did a retarded thing with amazing results. I got bored and soaked my beater Hiromoto VG-10 Damascus in etchant solution from Radio Shack 2 part to 10 parts hot water and fell asleep for 40min-1hr. I thought I ruined it because it turned black from all the carbon. But after sharpening and honing, it had an aggressive toothed edge and behaved exactly like my carbon knives, it digs into skin with just the slightest touch, I chipped the heel after dropping it 3 feet on to a til floor, not too bad. Also thinned and etched my Kagayaki, so I have to say VG-10, Hiromoto anyway gets as sharp as any of my other stainless knives I've handled so far.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6181/6128926171_5e1d4904fb.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6083/6129490550_774fc1f4ff.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6068/6128937239_5782ebb4d4.jpg

phan1
09-09-2011, 03:02 AM
Also worth noting is that I don't like to compare single bevels to doubles since they're such different creatures geometry wise. It's easy to fool ourselves by saying the steel from a yanigiba gets sharper than the steel from a gyuto simply because the geometry of the yanigiba has a distinct advantage and lends itself to making a sharper edge or maybe one that feels sharper anyway. For instance has anyone ever sharpened a gyuto and yanigiba with the same steel from the same maker and not found the yanagiba to be the better cutter?


Touche. But all my gyuto edges are very thin behind the edge, even thinner than yanagi. I'm still left wondering why it can't get to the level of yanagi theoretically. Is it the back side that makes yanagi so sharp? I always thought it'd be the steel, as the kasumi structure allows a better heat treatment and higher HRC number. Even a say a white #2 gyuto honyaki cannot be heat treated the way a white #2 kasumi yanagi can, right?

Lefty
09-09-2011, 07:43 AM
I think what makes a yanagi so sharp are the geometry and mass up top. They feel sharper, because they are more efficient cutters, as a result of less friction getting in the way. On the side of the ura, you only have a very small portion contacting the product being cut, and what is in contact is going basically straight down (or angled, depending on what is being cut). However, the angle of the total bevel is much more acute because it (obviously) only has one true bevel sharpened to X degrees, rather than two sharpened to X degrees (or 2 times X).
If you factor the angle into the fact that only one side of the knife is resisting your cutting efforts you will undoubtedly get a much easier, cleaner cut.
Add to this, the weight of the blade, which is allowing the edge to do its job with less effort from you, and you've got a true cutter. This theory can be further explained by TK59 and Salty's tomato video. Had the blade only had half the mass pushing down perpendicular to the board (say a small petty vs a gyuto), I doubt the knife would have cut into the tomato, even if the edge were equally sharp and thin.
Think about it this way...How many double beveled chisels have you used?

Marko Tsourkan
09-09-2011, 09:22 AM
...just as you attempted to talk down another vendor recently.

...

Ha ha. I knew that was a reason. This is something worth NOT to comment on.

You did not, however, answer any of the questions I asked, so your posts should be taken for what they are - off topic and of not much substance. :)

But you did make me move a little faster in direction to start backing up my claims.

Working on arranging comparing KD and DT in a rope cutting test. For that matter, we will be open to test ANY Japanese knife against any other knives for edge retention (as long as they have comparable geometry).

Peace,

M

Dave Martell
09-09-2011, 10:44 AM
I think what makes a yanagi so sharp are the geometry and mass up top.

That's how I see it too.

ThEoRy
09-09-2011, 10:45 AM
Hey what about the sharpness/ retention of zdp189? I have no experience with it but I hear it's a really hard steel. Also what about R2 powdered steel? I can get that sucker ridiculously sharp and it holds it for what seems an eternity...

Dave Martell
09-09-2011, 10:47 AM
Also what about R2 powdered steel? I can get that sucker ridiculously sharp and it holds it for what seems an eternity...


I forgot about R2, I'll add that to my list of get's crazy sharp.

tk59
09-09-2011, 11:45 AM
Hey what about the sharpness/ retention of zdp189? I have no experience with it but I hear it's a really hard steel... ZDP-189 can be hardened to something like 68 hrc. I really haven't seen it above 66 hrc (henckels miyabi). My wa-converted Cermax gets pleasantly sharp quite easily and stays sharp and aggressive a long time. Many have commented that it "rapidly loses ~10% of sharpness." While I don'd deny that may be true, I would say the same thing about most other blades, esp stainless. I figure any steel with larger-than-tiny carbides is going to rapidly lose the killer edge and settle into the "very nice" category.

James
09-09-2011, 12:27 PM
I'm sorry to have posted a topic that generated such a hmmm heated debate. My intention, as you said Dave, was to just get a list of the best stainless steels for cutlery; I'm glad to see that the topic has gotten back on track though :) as for the edge retention on zdp-189, I have to agree with TK. The edge just settles into the "really sharp, but not stupidly so" category after a few uses in the home kitchen.

OH and for anyone with experience with R2, HOW IS THAT STEEL???? haha I would love to know; can't find too many reviews on it

phan1
09-09-2011, 03:05 PM
I'd love to be able to try out anything zdp-189 as I never considered it because it was so expensive. I also have bad experience with powered steels, so put those two together and I've just never been able to really take the steel seriously.